How the Republicans washed out under Katrina

[kyleb]

The obvious way to eliminating international terrorism is to avoid any future actions which would motivate people to turn to terrorism. Those who have already walked down that path will eventually die off, and without motivation there will be none to take their place.

 

[BobG]

The obvious way to eliminating international terrorism is to avoid any future actions which would motivate people to turn to terrorism. Those who have already walked down that path will eventually die off, and without motivation there will be none to take their place.

This would basically require an end to change.

The primary beef with Western culture is its infiltration into Middle Eastern countries. The money from oil has been used to buy worthless products like Coca-Cola and Levi jeans. Worse, Western influence isn't just limited to products. It affects the attitude of Middle Easterners - women wanting a different role in Middle Eastern culture than they have traditionally had, for example.

It's hard to convince people that their new ways are corrupt - it alienates the people the fundamentalists are trying to reach. It's more effective to point out bad things Western culture has done that doesn't implicate the Arabs they're trying to convert. Fundamentalists point out the bad effects of European colonization, it's creation of Israel, and the US's continued support for Israel to turn Arabs against Western powers. If the Middle East is at war against all Western countries, then all of the Western influence in the Middle East should disappear, including Western products.

Those opposed to recent cultural changes in the Middle East will eventually die off in any event. Your fundamentalist groups aren't that different from, say, the ranchers that were so glad to have the railroad finally reach the prairies until they realized that the railroad also brought farmers (it may not be much fun herding cattle to market, but cattle can at least walk on their own, something wheat and corn can't do). The range wars ended over a hundred years ago - you'd be hard pressed to find a rancher roaming the range shooting farmers and sabotaging fences today.

 

[SOS2008]

G.O.P. Split Over Big Plans for Storm Spending
By CARL HULSE (NY Times), Sep 16



If the Republicans are for less government - why to the federal budgets keep increasing. The Republicans control the Executive Branch and Congress. Where is all that money going? And on top of that, my combined state and local taxes (more local than state) have doubled because the federal government has reduced spending in my state! We have a Republican governor and most local officials are Republican.

Since the Republicans control both of these branches of government, and are the one's who voted for the invasion of Iraq, the energy bill, highway bill, etc., how can they complain about spending? Oh, I know, it's different when the pork is going to your state and/or getting you reelected, but NOT when it is going elsewhere.

 

[kyleb]

This would basically require an end to change.

I'm of the opinion that it would only require an end to our subjugation of the people of the Middle East as well as our support for those who subjugate their own. While it is true that many of them have a lack of respect for our culteural values, I do not believe that this in-itself motivates terrorism.

 

[BobG]

I'm of the opinion that it would only require an end to our subjugation of the people of the Middle East as well as our support for those who subjugate their own. While it is true that many of them have a lack of respect for our culteural values, I do not believe that this in-itself motivates terrorism.

You miss the point. They probably wouldn't care one or the other about our cultural values as long as our values stayed out of the Middle East.

There's more than way for our cultural values to infiltrate the Middle East than political subjugation. Commerce has created a greater influx of Western culture than anything the US or Europe has done politically or militarily.

 

[BobG]

Since the Republicans control both of these branches of government, and are the one's who voted for the invasion of Iraq, the energy bill, highway bill, etc., how can they complain about spending? Oh, I know, it's different when the pork is going to your state and/or getting you reelected, but NOT when it is going elsewhere.

It's the dawning realization that they rode the wrong horse.

I'm wondering what happens if Iraq becomes a Shi'ite theocracy. Then even the religious right will abandon Bush.

 

[kyleb]

You miss the point. They probably wouldn't care one or the other about our cultural values as long as our values stayed out of the Middle East.

There's more than way for our cultural values to infiltrate the Middle East than political subjugation. Commerce has created a greater influx of Western culture than anything the US or Europe has done politically or militarily.

Actually you are missing my point; I do not believe that the influx cultural values you previously noted are the root of the hostility.

 

[pattylou]

It's the dawning realization that they rode the wrong horse.

But we told them. When are we allowed to punch them?

 

[Ivan Seeking]

With disaster costs estimated at $200 billion and beyond, Al Hubbard, director of Bush's National Economic Council, said, "It's coming from the American taxpayer." He acknowledged the costs would swell the deficit projected at $333 billion for the current year before Hurricane Katrina slammed into the Gulf Coast.

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/wireStory?id=1132385

The Cost of War calculator is set to reach $204.6 billion at the end of fiscal year 2005 (September 30, 2005). The Cost of War calculator is occasionally reset based on new information and new allocations of funding.

http://costofwar.com/numbers.html

Note that fighting or preventing terrorism has not been mentioned yet.

 

[Astronuc]

I heard that the funding for the Iraq war is being done as supplemental bills, so its not part of the budget and therefore it is not counted in the deficit either.

So the deficit (excluding Katrina) is much larger, and then including Katrina it's even greater.

Robert Reich had a great idea. Reopen the highway bill and strip out the pork. The money has been authorized, but not spent - so basically they can start over and eliminate unnecessary programs to cover Katrina.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

So just this year, and not counting Katrina, the Rep led government has cost every man, woman, and child, about $1000. ACtually I should say added to our debt since this doesn't count taxes paid.

Weren't we in the Black [annually] under Clinton?

 

[Astronuc]

http://www.brillig.com/debt_clock/

The Outstanding Public Debt as of 17 Sep 2005 at 01:16:45 PM GMT is:
$7,964,818,252,945.36 give or take - so each time one looks its greater

The estimated population of the United States is 297,188,609
so each citizen's share of this debt is $26,800.55.

The National Debt has continued to increase an average of
$1.66 billion per day since September 30, 2004!

Under Clinton, there were some years of surplus. Part of that was due to the inflated stock market - which between 1999-2001 fell by $6 trillion, although since then it has recovered by $ 2-3 trillion. Nevertheless, the represents a significant reduction in future spending.

 

[Astronuc]

Reading this thread I couldn't help but think of a comment by P.J. O'Rourke and reiterated IIRC by Robert Fulghum.

"Democrats are...the party that says government can make you richer, smarter, taller and get the chickweed out of your lawn. Republicans are the party that says government doesn't work, and then they get elected to prove it."

More political commentary at - http://www.heartsandminds.org/humor/fundemrep.htm

 

[pattylou]

Weren't we in the Black [annually] under Clinton?

Well, yes, we were. But we can't vote Democrat because they'll raise taxes.

 

[Skyhunter]

Historically speaking, it's always been a city that did what needs to be done to get the job finished. One thing I learned living there is that, even if there is class and race tension and all that, when it comes down to it, everybody there is a New Yorker. There's a love and a brotherhood there that I've never experienced in any other big city. I don't know that one could say the same about New Orleans.

Correct me if I am wrong but isn't NY a very liberal city?

 

[kyleb]

I wouldn't say "very", the current and previous Mayor are both Republicans.

 

[Skyhunter]

On the other hand, I rarely see conservatives say anything positive for a Democratic politician,

Not true. I have heard conservatives say wonderful things about Zell Miller.

 

[Skyhunter]

http://www.elsewhere.org/cgi-bin/postmodern/
Quite a few forum members should have a look at that.

Sounds like someone I know.

 

[kyleb]

Oh, heh, now that I click on the link again and get a new essay it makes much more sense. I suppose I was trying to be too serious before and should have read the fine print at the bottom the first time around.

 

[loseyourname]

Correct me if I am wrong but isn't NY a very liberal city?

Well, as Kyle points out, the last two mayors and the governor are Republicans, although the city has gone democratic in the last several presidential elections by a fairly wide margin. The city certainly has a liberal feel to it, but it also may be the most commercially driven city in the world. They know that business is what has made them great, and that the bulk of their public revenue comes from business - a lot from sales tax, granted, but that is still dependent on retail sales. Giuliani pulled the city out of the squalor it was in during the 80s and 90s by cracking down on crime and making the city one of the most favorable business environments in the country. It was largely Disney that rebuilt and cleaned up Times Square. Even most of their public works projects, like the great bridges and parks they have, were funded by public authorities, which obtain their money largely through user fees rather than taxes. New Yorkers are practical, and being conservative in the right ways resulted in their property values quadrupling over the last 15 years. There is a flip side, of course, as almost no one can afford to live in Manhattan any more. Ultimately, though, I think that if we look at New York under Giuliani and contrast it with the US under Bush, the difference isn't so much that one is conservative and the other isn't. Both are conservative. The difference is that one knows how to lead and implements clear, well thought-out plans of action. I honestly doubt that Bush would be doing any better if he flipped and implemented Kerry's platform.

 

[BobG]

Katrina hasn't been bad for all Republicans.

Haley Barbour, Governor of Mississippi, should come out of this looking very good - maybe good enough to push him to a Presidential contender.

Barbour is a former Chairman of the Republican National Committee and has very close ties with the Donald Segretti-Lee Atwater-Karl Rove line of political strategists (in fact, Barbour worked directly with both Rove and Atwater in Republican campaign finance). Having Rove's group helping Barbour campaign means McCain and other Republican candidates can expect another very effective 'lowball' campaign in the Republican primaries.

His close ties with Rove and with Bush give him an advantage in getting federal help. Mississippi should wind up with more help in proportion to their losses than New Orleans, where a Republican federal government will be dealing with Democratic politicians they have little sympathy for. That gives Barbour a good opportunity to contrast how well Mississippi recovers from Katrina to how well New Orleans recovers from Katrina. So far, Barbour ranks second to General Honore of the National Guard in opinion polls about how officials have responded to Katrina - his overall popularity has increased 15% while Blanco (Governor of Louisiana) has dropped 9%.

Dirt wise, he had some problems with Hong Kong money being used to finance Republican campaigns while Barbour was Chairman of the Republican National Committee and he was also embarrassed by the Council of Conservative Citizens when, on their website, they posted a picture of him meeting with CCC leaders at a fundraiser conducted by the CCC (the CCC is the legal, non-violent political wing of the KKK). He claimed he didn't know anything about the CCC when he met them and appeared at their barbecue fundraiser. It is understandable the CCC would like having Barbour appear at one of their functions, since his stance on affirmative action and other peripheral racial issues (Mississippi state flag, etc) line up well with the CCC's views.

 

[Yonoz]

other peripheral racial issues (Mississippi state flag, etc

What's the issue with the Mississippi State flag?

 

[faust9]

What's the issue with the Mississippi State flag?

http://www.50states.com/flag/msflag.htm

see the "X" in the upper left? That was the confederate flag---the flag used by the southern states during the civil war. That portion is offensive to a lot of minorities because it represents a time and a system where they were enslaved and the fact that a state---any state---would honor that fight to enslave is offensive.

http://www.paulduncan.org/files/confederate_flag.jpg
http://www.netstate.com/states/symb/flags/ms_flag.htm
http://mshistory.k12.ms.us/features/feature2/histconflag.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confederate_flag

 

[Yonoz]

http://www.50states.com/flag/msflag.htm

see the "X" in the upper left? That was the confederate flag---the flag used by the southern states during the civil war. That portion is offensive to a lot of minorities because it represents a time and a system where they were enslaved and the fact that a state---any state---would honor that fight to enslave is offensive.

http://www.paulduncan.org/files/confederate_flag.jpg
http://www.netstate.com/states/symb/flags/ms_flag.htm
http://mshistory.k12.ms.us/features/feature2/histconflag.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confederate_flag

Rather odd how that hasn't been changed.

 

[faust9]

Rather odd how that hasn't been changed.

I agree, but old prejudices die hard.

 

[Yonoz]

I agree, but old prejudices die hard.

Do you mean that in the state of Mississippi there is still such strong prejudice? Or is it simply sentiment to that period - do people not feel enough regret?

 

[selfAdjoint]

Recent statistics show that the percentage of white votes for republicans in southern states has tracked accurately with the size of the black population in each state. For the gulf states with large black populations it's up around 60% but much lower in border states with lower numbers of blacks. This doesn't prove "racism" but it does show that whites tend to have a political preference correlated with their perception of black numbers.

 

[SOS2008]

Katrina hasn't been bad for all Republicans.

Haley Barbour, Governor of Mississippi, should come out of this looking very good - maybe good enough to push him to a Presidential contender.

Barbour is a former Chairman of the Republican National Committee and has very close ties with the Donald Segretti-Lee Atwater-Karl Rove line of political strategists (in fact, Barbour worked directly with both Rove and Atwater in Republican campaign finance). Having Rove's group helping Barbour campaign means McCain and other Republican candidates can expect another very effective 'lowball' campaign in the Republican primaries.

His close ties with Rove and with Bush give him an advantage in getting federal help. Mississippi should wind up with more help in proportion to their losses than New Orleans, where a Republican federal government will be dealing with Democratic politicians they have little sympathy for. That gives Barbour a good opportunity to contrast how well Mississippi recovers from Katrina to how well New Orleans recovers from Katrina. So far, Barbour ranks second to General Honore of the National Guard in opinion polls about how officials have responded to Katrina - his overall popularity has increased 15% while Blanco (Governor of Louisiana) has dropped 9%.

Dirt wise, he had some problems with Hong Kong money being used to finance Republican campaigns while Barbour was Chairman of the Republican National Committee and he was also embarrassed by the Council of Conservative Citizens when, on their website, they posted a picture of him meeting with CCC leaders at a fundraiser conducted by the CCC (the CCC is the legal, non-violent political wing of the KKK). He claimed he didn't know anything about the CCC when he met them and appeared at their barbecue fundraiser. It is understandable the CCC would like having Barbour appear at one of their functions, since his stance on affirmative action and other peripheral racial issues (Mississippi state flag, etc) line up well with the CCC's views.

Bush was an unknown with exception of a well-known name. Grass roots movements have grown tremendously since then to prevent this kind of candidate in the future. Any association with the likes of Rove will be greatly publicized, and dirty politics will be less acceptable to fed-up American citizens. The playing field has changed--maybe even the media will do their jobs (if they don't, the bloggers will?).

Edit: Not to mention ongoing election reform.

 

[BobG]

Bush was an unknown with exception of a well-known name. Grass roots movements have grown tremendously since then to prevent this kind of candidate in the future. Any association with the likes of Rove will be greatly publicized, and dirty politics will be less acceptable to fed-up American citizens. The playing field has changed--maybe even the media will do their jobs (if they don't, the bloggers will?).

Edit: Not to mention ongoing election reform.

How so? Was there ever a proven direct link between the Bush campaign and the Swift Boat Vets? How well did the Swift Boat adds go over?

A lot of people say they are fed up with that type of campaigning, but I haven't seen much sign that its effectiveness is diminishing. The idea that it will be less effective in the future is a hope, not a likelihood.

 

[BobG]

Edit: Not to mention ongoing election reform.

Even that is an ongoing struggle. A significant portion of it was very nearly circumvented: http://www.hillnews.com/thehill/export/TheHill/News/Frontpage/092105/frist.html .

Issues like this hurts Frist much more than something like the HCA stock. McCain is more influential in the Senate than the Republican Majority Leader. Frist loses credibility as a Republican leader nearly every time he comes in conflict with McCain.

 

[Informal Logic]

How so? Was there ever a proven direct link between the Bush campaign and the Swift Boat Vets? How well did the Swift Boat adds go over?

A lot of people say they are fed up with that type of campaigning, but I haven't seen much sign that its effectiveness is diminishing. The idea that it will be less effective in the future is a hope, not a likelihood.

The lack of WMD was known before the 2004 election, with the 9-11 Commission Report released in August the summer prior. Many thought the lies about the war would hurt Bush's chance for reelection. After the election, polls showed that many Americans still believed the lies, so you are correct.

However, it has made others realize the need to counter propaganda, monitor religious organizations, push for election reforms and investigations, etc. In the meantime, there has been one bungle after another within the Bush regime (Iraq, paid pundits, Terri Schiavo, deficit spending, Katrina) and the GOP (DeLay, Rove, Frist). I don't think people are as complacent now, and opposition has been invigorated (Cindy Sheehan). I do not have an ounce of trust left, and I am already wary about upcoming elections.

 

[2CentsWorth]

Even that is an ongoing struggle. A significant portion of it was very nearly circumvented: http://www.hillnews.com/thehill/export/TheHill/News/Frontpage/092105/frist.html .

Issues like this hurts Frist much more than something like the HCA stock. McCain is more influential in the Senate than the Republican Majority Leader. Frist loses credibility as a Republican leader nearly every time he comes in conflict with McCain.

If the public is made more aware?

These riders attached to bills, or giving themselves a raise in the wee hours of the night, or what DeLay did to siphon funds in his direction... You would think they would be ousted. From the link, here are the names of our trustworthy congressmen:

A spokesman for Senate Assistant Majority Leader Mitch McConnell (R-Ky.), who has long opposed campaign-finance regulation and is suspected of masterminding the latest effort to water down fundraising limits, said the provision belonged to Sens. Kit Bond (R-Mo.) and Bob Bennett (R-Utah). McConnell’s aide referred questions to their offices.

 

[Astronuc]

Today - Bush avoids Texas and Republican Governor Rick Perry, and sneeks off to Colorado to avoid facing the fiasco of the evacution around Houston.

Hiding out in Colorado, Bush will pretend to be in charge.

Meanwhile, Democrats are trying to get some accounting of the $billions spent by the administration and federal government.

The $400 million allocated to the Corp of Engineers sure didn't help New Orleans.

 

[russ_watters]

Bush was an unknown with exception of a well-known name.

You mean in 2000? Bush was governor of Texas!

 

[Astronuc]

I think SOS means nationally, Bush was unknown to the general population. He was well connected through his father's associates, of course.

Meanwhile in Beaumont -

Nearly 1,300 patients were airlifted out of an airport near Beaumont in a rush Thursday night and Friday morning, but only after the county's top official made a panicked call to Sen. Kay Bailey Hutchinson for help. Why does it take a call to a US Senator to get help?

Seems even a state run by a Republican governor can't deal very well with a major hurricane.

And Tom Delay promised a federal response like they did with Katrina.