HS students: what's a 'C' on your grade scale?

[mattmns]

90 =< A =< 100
80 =< B < 90
70 =< C < 80
60 =< D < 70
0 =< F < 60

US. Public

 

[jtbell]

I think it's kind of silly to get worked up over variations in percentage scales for letter grades. After all, instructors can get the final letter grades to work out pretty much any way they want, by choosing the appropriate mix of hard and easy questions on exams, by adjusting the amount of partial credit they give on homework problems, or adjusting grading standards on essays, etc.

This assumes the instructors make up their own tests, which is usually the case in the USA. If you have standardized tests written by a third party, that are the same for all instructors, the situation is rather different.

 

[Math Is Hard]

Mine is exactly the same as Andromeda321's scale.
94-100 A
85-93 B
78-84 C...
Public School in Iowa.

90 =< A =< 100
80 =< B < 90
70 =< C < 80
60 =< D < 70
0 =< F < 60

US. Public

Here's what confuses me. Let's say Student X from ProdQuanta's school applies to the same college as Student Y from matt's school.
Student X scored 93% in all her classes. Her transcript shows straight B's. Student Y scored 90% in all her classes. Her transcript shows straight A's. Unless, the college admissions department sees the actual percentage score for the classes, and not just letter grades, Student Y clearly has the advantage even if Student X was the better scholar.

 

[mathwonk]

it is probably a mistake to worry about what numbers are used for the grades. the real matter is how difficult is it to get those numbers.

i.e. numbers on their own mean nothing. in 1951, $40 was the entire day's receipts from my uncle's restaurant, and I was terrified to carry it across the parking lot to the bank.

today $40 might not buy three steaks.

do you understand?

I can write a test, or refer you to e.g. the Putnam exam, on which 10% is deserving of great honor.

i can write another test on which any idiot will get 100%.

so you are probably asking the wrong question. in any event, the intelligent student will always seek out the most difficult teacher, as there they will learn the most, and stack up best against the outside world afterwards.

peace,

 

[Math Is Hard]

it is stupid to worry about what numbers are used for the grades.

Unless those numbers get you kicked off your high school drill team- which of course does not mean a damn thing to you, but to my sister it was devastating.

 

[Moonbear]

Here's what confuses me. Let's say Student X from ProdQuanta's school applies to the same college as Student Y from matt's school.
Student X scored 93% in all her classes. Her transcript shows straight B's. Student Y scored 90% in all her classes. Her transcript shows straight A's. Unless, the college admissions department sees the actual percentage score for the classes, and not just letter grades, Student Y clearly has the advantage even if Student X was the better scholar.

It's probably less of an issue than dealing with whether Student X's classes covered the same material as student Y's classes, or if Student X's teachers wrote easier tests or graded on a curve so the average student got a C no matter what percentage value was assigned to it than Student Y's teachers, or even if Student Z's teachers decided to give all their students A's. Even within the same school district, different teachers teach the same subject differently.

The transcript will also include information aside from the GPA, such as class ranking, which gives a better idea of how that student is performing compared to other classmates experiencing the same grading system, and should also include an explanation on it of what percentages the letters represent, as well as the grade point value of each letter grade. Every transcript I've ever gotten from high school or universities has this information printed on the back.

And, there is always standardized testing. It'll make you wonder if a student with straight Cs scores a 1600 on the SAT and one with straight As scores an 1100. You'll want to know why there's such a discrepancy.

Percentages don't mean any more than letters when it comes to grading. I have a sense of how much material I think a student needs to know in my class to pass. On a test of 100 points, I write it so that the average student will get 70-79% correct, which is a C. Now, if an administrator tells me that a C is actually 80-85%, then we just play games with numbers. Anyone with 78% or 79% correct on the test gets an 85 in the grade book, 80 or 81% becomes an 86%, etc. This keeps everyone happy: I give a test and grade in a way that I feel comfortable with as a reasonable way to sort out my A and B and C students, the students are happy that their raw scores get scaled up, and the administration is happy that I've passed the right number of students. Of course the other way to adjust scores up is to do so at the end of the term and tack on a "class participation" grade, which is a great method of adjusting grades, and also gives a chance to bump a student up another letter if they are borderline and really put their best effort into class discussions.

I still remember one class in college where the high score on the first exam was a 30 or 35%. I think I earned a C on that exam with a score of 18%. Even after we got the exam back, we couldn't figure out where the other 70% of the questions came from. It wasn't covered in the lab, it wasn't covered in the lecture, we couldn't find anything on it in the textbook. It was the most bizarre exam I ever experienced, and we never did figure out what was running through the prof's mind when he wrote it, but it does a good job of illustrating how meaningless absolute percentages are.

 

[mathwonk]

Math is hard: I apologize for the bluntness of those comments. I know to you and your sister that being on the high school drill team is a big deal at the moment. But the idea was probably that improving her schoolwork would likely be more beneficial to her in the long run than being on that drill team.

My own story is this; After being state champ in high school at math, and a plus 1500 sat scorer (before the grades were artificially inflated), I went to a difficult college where the grades were much harder to get than they were in my podunk high school. I once scored about 18% on a math exam. They ahd to give me about 10 free points to give me an F !

In spite of trying to some extent, i failed out and had to work in a factory for a year to regain admission, even though in an easier school i might have been valedictorian, or at least an easy success.

After a long time, I valued those higher standards at my college, and strove to achieve those same standards. After a much longer time, I actually became a (small) world recognized expert in a small area of my specialty.

A;larger world of possibilities opened to me, and I was even invited back as a visiting scholar at the school from which i had earlier failed out.

My whole life was elevated, because someone held me to a higher standard than I thought reasonable at first. I hope your sister too is inspired to achieve at a level her peers in easier schools are not. It seems someone believes she is capable of more than she herself realizes at the moment. It could well be true.

best wishes,

mathwonk

 

[franznietzsche]

Highschools in Alberta use just a percentage. The Average grade to get into university is 86%, (comming from high school). To get scholarships and what not you need a for sure <90%. Also it is important to remember that the average scores on the Final Exams are 75%. Alot of people don't get into university there first try...

So therefore "our" (canadian) education system does not allow people to get through too easily.

Was i talking about Alberta? Why are you generalizing when you can't?

At any rate, little tidbit: The first year the California High School Exit exam was implement more than 2/3 of students failed. They decided not to require the test that year rather than fail that many high school students. Did i mention that the governor then has since been thrown out of office?

 

[Math Is Hard]

My whole life was elevated, because someone held me to a higher standard than I thought reasonable at first. I hope your sister too is inspired to achieve at a level her peers in easier schools are not. It seems someone believes she is capable of more than she herself realizes at the moment. It could well be true.

Thanks, mathwonk. I sincerely hope that one day she'll find the same sort of inspiration that you did. She gets frustrated too easily, I think, and tends to give up too soon.

Your tenacity is a great gift, and it has done amazing things for you. You're obviously a brilliant person, but without tenacity you never would have gotten where you wanted to go. I wish I knew how to express to her the importance of this quality.

But she's 16 and knows everything and I am just a well-meaning idiot that she humors now and then.

 

[mathwonk]

Thank you very much for the appreciative words, Math is hard. I was influenced once by someone who told me the three key things to remember in order to be a success:

1) never give up,

2) never give up, and

3) never give up.


someday your sister will also appreciate your concern, love, and help.

 

[SahinTC]

97-100: A+
93-96 A
90-92 A-
87-89 B+
83-86 B
80-82 B-
77-79 C+
73-76 C
70-72 C-
<70 = fail.

 

[Poop-Loops]

My school district had the same grading as SahinTC's. 70-79 is a C, 80-89 is a B, 90-100 is an A, with -'s and +'s depending on the teacher. But anything under 70 you fail. Not that it was hard to do in the first place. =/

PL

 

[Math Is Hard]

I had it a lot easier. In my high school days you could actually pass with a D! (which was a 60)

 

[Data]

Ontario (public):

A+: 90 - 100
A: 85 - 89
A-: 80 - 84
B: 70 - 79
C: 60 - 69
D: 50 - 59

now, of course, there's the question as to whether the difference in grading scales is representative of a difference in expectations, or a difference in difficulty of the curriculum, or just in how marks are assigned and removed~

 

[Artermis]

First of all, Math Is Hard, Mathwonk -- Thank you for your contributions to such an enriching thread =)
@MIH and mathwonk

I can sort of understand what your sister is going through, MIH, I'm 16, male, living in Toronto, Ontario, Canada and not an especially high achiever. I do try hard because I am very ambitious in my university and eventual graduate school goals, but I get frustrated easily because I attend a relatively fast paced, intelligent school, and am surrounded by peers that are really excellent scholars.

@mathwonk

What I greatly dislike about my school is, although it is a recognized school, it's often very hard on its students and high marks are quite hard to earn. My frustration stems that when I apply for University they will see my under 90 average (relatively high 80's) with marks floating around the mid-high 80's,some 90's range, while somebody in a public school with better conditions (lenient teachers, easier tests, which has been discussed previously etc...) might have a 95 average. This is simply not uncommon, I know people like this.

I am convinced that I am the better scholar, anyone who knew it personally would know that my under 90 average is clearly worth at least a 90 average compared to the majority of other schools.

However, this directly affects my University program applications. Because I live in Canada and plan to apply to Canadian Universities (University of Toronto Schools, McGill, McMaster, Queens... etc) they simply (especially U of T) have such an incredibly high number of applicants that (correct me if I am wrong), that they feed the transcripts through computers and pick out people with the cutoff averages for the programs. From what I understand, they do not have the time to individually look at my application and say "Oh look, he comes from a tough school with a tough curriculum and tough standards, let's add a few points to his average". I especially need a high average because I plan on applying to science or life science programs in which they are very competitive and experience high cutoff grades.

So, from my admitted limited understanding of the University selection process, I am disadvantaged because of my advantaged school.

Here's my Percent Range/Letter Grading system if it's of any help:

(Toronto, Ontario, Canada, University of Toronto Schools)
90 - 100 A+
85 - 90 A
80 - 84 A-

77 - 79 B+
74 - 76 B
70 - 73 B-

67 - 69 C+
64 - 66 C
60 - 63 C-

Same patterning goes on with <50 = F

-Art

 

[ShawnD]

Why is it that the US is consistently not ranked near the top in science and math scores on tests when compared to other nations, but we produce a lot of the top scientists in almost every field?

St00pid people bring down the average


In Alberta, Canada, we don't have letters. It's numbers all the way. 49 and lower is a fail. 80 and up is honors.
University used to use the 9 point grade system, but they recently switched over to the 4 point system. I don't really know how either system works.


edit: I didn't realize an Albertan had already posted

Highschools in Alberta use just a percentage. The Average grade to get into university is 86%, (comming from high school). To get scholarships and what not you need a for sure <90%. Also it is important to remember that the average scores on the Final Exams are 75%. Alot of people don't get into university there first try...

So therefore "our" (canadian) education system does not allow people to get through too easily.

Are you sure you live in the same province as me? University of Alberta accepted me into engineering with a 79% average and I was almost failing English (passed English 30 with a 54%). I opted out of that and went to NAIT instead. NAIT is a well accredited school even though it takes people who have a 65% average or better. My current average is 84%, and I'm elligable for a LOT of scholarships; no less than 20. Getting them is tricky though because there are hundreds of other people applying for them.

 

[JamesU]

Here's my Percent Range/Letter Grading system if it's of any help:

(Toronto, Ontario, Canada, University of Toronto Schools)
90 - 100 A+
85 - 90 A
80 - 84 A-

77 - 79 B+
74 - 76 B
70 - 73 B-

67 - 69 C+
64 - 66 C
60 - 63 C-

Same patterning goes on with <50 = F

-Art

OMFG I wish I was at your school. I bet everyone passes there!

 

[ShawnD]

OMFG I wish I was at your school. I bet everyone passes there!

You'd be surprised how easy it is to fail. University is hard, especially when the person marking your stuff is an idiot. For one report I did, I lost no less than 20% because of 1 mistake in a 10 page report. I forgot to Q-test out a value (outlier), and everything based on that was marked wrong. Mean? Wrong! Standard deviation? Wrong! T score, F score? Comparing methods? All wrong!

It depends who marks your papers. Seriously.

 

[T@P]

where i live, its really relaxed, (college), like 88+ is an A, 75+ is a B, 60something is a C, and below is bad.

but sadly if you screw up one one question in an exam lose 17 points...

 

[Artermis]

OMFG I wish I was at your school. I bet everyone passes there!

You don't know my school. Failing isn't considered a possibility, and excellence isn't an option, it's required. =(

 

[JamesU]

It kinda seems that way with your grading system

 

[Data]

The grade scale tells you nothing about how easy it is to pass or fail (as others have explained).

 

[ek]

Instead of putting money into their education system, the US government just tells schools to inflate grades and makes the SAT way easier to disguise the bigger problem, which is the US school system sucks and is getting worse and worse every year.

I posted my HS grade scheme earlier in the thread, here is my university scheme, in case anybody is interested:

University of Victoria (British Columbia, Canada)

90 - A+
85 - A
80 - A-
75 - B+
70 - B
65 - B-
60 - C+
55 - C
50 - D
<50 - F

 

[Andromeda321]

*Looks at grades, makes plans to transfer to the University of Victoria*

 

[sanfty]

a c at my school here in dallas is around about 13-15%

 

[Mikey2788]

My high school is the similar to sisters in terms of grading, and my School is in the middle of no where: Thorndike Maine. Never heard of the the city of Thorndike before? well its because its a cow-farm town, not a city. My school has less than 600 students, and there are only 15 desktop computers in the library and they never work. but never the less this is how our grading system is

92-100 | A

84-91 | B

77-83 | C

70-76 |D

0-69 |F

 

[calvinuk]

In England (Where the A-level grades are standardised across the whole of the country) it goes like this:

80-100% A
70-79% B
60-69% C
50-59% D
40-49% E
40> Ungraded.

Around 25% of A-level grades are given as an A.

 

[Jack21222]

Was there a need to bump a 4 year old topic?

 

[pjfoster]

At my old high school (Catholic, Private school in Iowa) the scale was...

93-100 = A
85-92 = B
77-84 = C
70-76 = D
<70 = F

 

[physics girl phd]

At my high school we went A-100-93 B-85-92 C-78-84 D-70-77 F-69 and below.

This scale seems like the same one that was used when I was in public HS (in Ohio).

 

[jtbell]

That's what it was when I was in high school, also in Ohio, about forty years ago. I don't know if it was a statewide system, or simply one that happened to be popular.

Right now, Ohio does not have a common statewide grading scale, according to a blog written by a state Board of Education member:

http://www.stateofohioeducation.com/2008/09/gpa-and-grading-scales-local-or-state.html

But Texas and South Carolina, for example, do have standard grading scales.

As I said before in this thread (four years ago! egad!), I see no reason to obsess about grading scales when the instructor writes the tests, assigns partial credit, etc. The instructor can simply "grade to the scale" or "design to the scale," whether consciously or unconsciously.

 

[Wellesley]

At my old high school (Catholic, Private school in Iowa) the scale was...

93-100 = A
85-92 = B
77-84 = C
70-76 = D
<70 = F

Same here (Catholic, Private, Michigan), except this is for the Honors and AP Classes. All the other classes have A = 90-100, B=80-90, etc.

As I said before in this thread (four years ago! egad!), I see no reason to obsess about grading scales when the instructor writes the tests, assigns partial credit, etc. The instructor can simply "grade to the scale" or "design to the scale," whether consciously or unconsciously.

Oh how I wish this were true! At my high school, especially in the AP classes, there are no curves on tests, or extra credit...and the tests are not easy.

 

[jtbell]

At my high school, especially in the AP classes, there are no curves on tests, or extra credit...and the tests are not easy.

But who writes the tests (and picks the questions)? Are they true/false or multiple choice where credit for a question is all or nothing, or are they the kind of question where you can get partial credit based on your work? My point is that someone who's taught a subject for a while, to similar groups of students, can adjust the difficulty and/or grading of tests to get a grade distribution that reflects his "gut feelings" about how well students should perform.

It's been a long time since I was in high school, and I don't remember much about the tests I took then. Certainly for essays and essay-type questions in non-science courses there was partial credit. But I don't remember what my chemistry and physics tests were like. AP courses didn't exist back then, at least not at my high school, but I was in an "accelerated" track and was able to take two years of both chemistry and physics, and a year of calculus.

 

[Wellesley]

But who writes the tests (and picks the questions)? Are they true/false or multiple choice where credit for a question is all or nothing, or are they the kind of question where you can get partial credit based on your work? My point is that someone who's taught a subject for a while, to similar groups of students, can adjust the difficulty and/or grading of tests to get a grade distribution that reflects his "gut feelings" about how well students should perform.

It's been a long time since I was in high school, and I don't remember much about the tests I took then. Certainly for essays and essay-type questions in non-science courses there was partial credit. But I don't remember what my chemistry and physics tests were like. AP courses didn't exist back then, at least not at my high school, but I was in an "accelerated" track and was able to take two years of both chemistry and physics, and a year of calculus.

To use AP Calculus as an example...the tests were mainly free response, with partial credit given according to the guidelines the College Board uses to grade the AP exams.

With regards to the grading scale, you are correct, the teachers do have the opportunity to adjust the tests, and the grades. In my case, the teacher didn't...

 

[moo5003]

US, California (% to grade) - Public School in LA
93-100 = A (4.0)
90-93 = A- (3.7)
87-90 = B+ (3.3)
83-87 = B (3.0)
80-83 = B- (2.7)
77-80 = C+ (2.3)
73-77 = C (2.0)
70-73 = C- (1.7)
60-70 = D (1.0)
<60 = F (0)

Then each teacher had their own ability to shift the grades as they wanted (curve etc etc etc).