Huge Energy Bill - Has House Approval

[loseyourname]

By the way, if you're just criticizing DeLay, I'm with you on that. He's close to as low as they come as far as I'm concerned. Honestly, though, it's the local politicians I get fed up with mostly. The feds are mostly faceless to me, unless its my representative or senator.

 

[The Smoking Man]

But it isn't 'big oil.' Don't you see that? Only 19% of the funds are going to the fossil fuel industry. The other 'big energy' companies mostly use hydroelectric and nuclear power. And who developed all these Japanese hybrids? Large automakers, correct? Who has built most of the hydrogen filling stations in the US? BP and Ford, two large companies. It just makes sense to me to give money to companies that have a track record of success.

What I see is that 'nuclear energy' was being condemned by every country in the world a few years ago. It produced a waste that had a halflife, was suceptible to attack and calamity and was the major component in the production of weapons.

Major hydro-electric projects destroy massive amounts of the Earth and the ecosystems (Alcan, Three Gorges, to name two)

Somehow, the propaganda mill has been working overtime and nuclear waste has become a 'concern of the past' while we chase NKorea and Iran.

Who developed the Hybrids? Certainly not American car companies. They were developed in oil strapped Japan who always seem to look a few years beyond their US counterparts and thus dominate the markets.

Now that they have seen the success of the Japanese efforts and the UK hydrogen cycle, they are seeing an inevitable shift.

Remember, it is the USA who gave us the Hummer and the Humvee and has popularized the SUV!

1) So what? Can we ever have enough R&D in a time when we so desperately need innovation? 2) Why on Earth would they not feel motivated? Do you really think they care that their money comes from oil and not some other source? Of course not. They just care that they are getting money. They're not going to intentionally bankrupt themselves by continuuing to rely indefinitely on a fuel source that will eventually be gone. This isn't like the airline scandals where CEOs were able to sacrifice long-term profitability because they knew they would be gone when it came time to pay for it. Since the industry in question is already quite profitable, they have no incentive to sacrifice anything and they have the opportunity to look more toward the future.

All of the above is answered with 'supply and demand'.

If I can produce a gallon of gasoline and it is abundant, I can charge $1 per gallon. If I can produce 1 gallon of gasoline and it is rare AND there are no alternate sources, I can charge $10.

Rarity simply provides for a larger return on investment with the same efforts put forward... same cost for production.

'Big power' will look more to the future when they can no longer compete with 'small power'. Until that happens then where is the impetus to change the status quo?

Remember, when Bush became the Governor of Texas, he removed most of the EPA controls in the state. Austin took over from LA as the smog capital of the USA. These guys have no problem taking a sh!t where they eat.

 

[loseyourname]

Houston took over, not Austin, and I have no clue what anything in the rest of your post has to do with the energy bill. Focus your thoughts a bit, Smoking Man. I know you have a good point to make.

 

[The Smoking Man]

Houston took over, not Austin, and I have no clue what anything in the rest of your post has to do with the energy bill. Focus your thoughts a bit, Smoking Man. I know you have a good point to make.

Point taken on Houston.

My point is that money given to the standard 'big energy' areas means that they will delay experimaentation and development until it is convenient for them to have a competitor or unless forced to by competition.

Even competition can be squelched by 'large energy' purchasing a small competitor with 'grant money' and then shelving the project.

Does the legislation require an ROI? Is there any accountability for the money and how it is spent? Is there oversite?

Or is it corporate welfare?

 

[kat]

Small point Sm, No money is being "given" to large energy companies. They are being allowed to keep more of their own money through tax breaks.

 

[The Smoking Man]

Small point Sm, No money is being "given" to large energy companies. They are being allowed to keep more of their own money through tax breaks.

Riiiight... How silly of me.

 

[SOS2008]

But it isn't 'big oil.' Don't you see that? Only 19% of the funds are going to the fossil fuel industry. The other 'big energy' companies mostly use hydroelectric and nuclear power. And who developed all these Japanese hybrids? Large automakers, correct? Who has built most of the hydrogen filling stations in the US? BP and Ford, two large companies. It just makes sense to me to give money to companies that have a track record of success.

Okay...first, why is 19% going to profitable oil companies that by nature will exploit fossil fuel for as long as they can? With regard to other 'big energy' companies, since they also are highly profitable, why are they being subsidized (or should we say subsidized even more)? The big word here is profitable (or maybe you haven't had to pay a utility bill or go to the pump lately). More profit should be the motive for these companies to innovate--or maybe you're no longer a free market capitalist? Then let's go the full distance and nationalize utilities/energy.

 

[loseyourname]

Point taken on Houston.

My point is that money given to the standard 'big energy' areas means that they will delay experimaentation and development until it is convenient for them to have a competitor or unless forced to by competition.

Even competition can be squelched by 'large energy' purchasing a small competitor with 'grant money' and then shelving the project.

Does the legislation require an ROI? Is there any accountability for the money and how it is spent? Is there oversite?

Or is it corporate welfare?

Well, again, I haven't read the bill, but the article says that the tax breaks are earmarked for R&D. Presumably, there is little research to be done in drilling for more oil and building more dams. I would imagine that research focuses on nuclear and hydrogen power. As for your claim that big energy companies will have no incentive to innovate until they have competition from smaller companies - if that is the case, why are they already innovating? The Japanese companies that developed hybrid technology and the American automakers copying it are all big companies. The companies building hydrogen fueling stations and developing hydrogen powered vehicles - especially for mass transit buses - are all big companies. The companies that own nuclear power plants, reducing our dependence on fossil fuels, are all big companies.

There are many factors that can cause a company to innovate and develop new technology. One is the threat of a competitor doing the same (note: It need not be a 'small upstart' competitor - big companies compete with each other, too). Another is the threat of their current fuel source eventually running out. Yet another is money being alloted to them by the government mandating that they use it on new research.

 

[loseyourname]

Okay...first, why is 19% going to profitable oil companies that by nature will exploit fossil fuel for as long as they can?

What nature is that? The only nature of any big company is that it will do anything it can to make more money. If this means developing new technology and alternative fuel sources, then that's what they'll do. Oil isn't going to be profitable forever and they know that. No one has still answered my question about why BP - a big oil company - has been the largest developer of hydrogen fuel technology over the last several years, building bus fleets and fueling stations across the UK and US. Should we not encourage this?

With regard to other 'big energy' companies, since they also are highly profitable, why are they being subsidized (or should we say subsidized even more)? The big word here is profitable (or maybe you haven't had to pay a utility bill or go to the pump lately). More profit should be the motive for these companies to innovate--or maybe you're no longer a free market capitalist? Then let's go the full distance and nationalize utilities/energy.

All I can say to that is deregulation failed in California, so yes, I am wary of going free market. Last time that happened - only a few years back - we had blackouts everywhere, the Enron scandal, and Edison nearly went bankrupt. If they've recovered well enough to be 'very profitable,' that's news to me - okay, I looked it up and their profits have risen since then, but it's mostly because of smart investing, not utility revenues, which have remained about the same.

Look. Your complaint seems to just be that we're giving all these breaks and subsidies to companies that already have money in a time when the nation is strapped for cash. Believe me - I'm sympathetic to that concern. Personally, I'd end the war and spend even more money to develop alternative energy sources, but I do understand that, as long as we have the war going on, we can't just throw money at everything when that money isn't there. What I'm not sympathetic to are the complaints from others in this thread - not you - that the money is going to companies with a recent history of innovation, with plenty of incentive to continue innovating, and with the resources to do it on a large scale, rather than upstarts.

There is a simple reason for that that no one else has even brought up yet. Investing in startups is risky. 80% of new businesses, and I would imagine even more in the energy business, fail. That is why these upstarts are funded by venture capitalists, people willing to take a risk, people who have plenty of money to throw around. The government is not going to invest in upstarts, and it never has, because it is safer to invest in companies with a history of success, companies that you know will still be around many years from now. I know this isn't investing in the traditional sense is that the government is not buying stock and it will not get any return on this other than benefit to citizens, but even so. You don't give money to companies developing new technologies that have little chance of being successful when you can fund companies developing technologies that are already showing signs of being successful. What the government will fund in addition to research and development by large companies, something it has always funded and should probably fund even more, is university research.

 

[pattylou]

It's OK to mention me by name.

"You don't give money to companies developing new technologies that have little chance of being successful when you can fund companies developing technologies that are already showing signs of being successful. What the government will fund in addition to research and development by large companies, something it has always funded and should probably fund even more, is university research."

The start ups (not upstarts) that I know personally were born out of post-doctoral grant money. I agree that you fund basic research. I disagree that this is somehow different than funding start-ups. And the payoff is about the same (between funding basic research and start up companies), in terms of "success stories."

But you make some good points.

p.s. Edit: and on retrospection, what I meant by start ups was not maverick compaines, but young and growing companies that have established roots and demonstrated success. Example: a small solar manufacturer has more of a future ahead of itself, more chance to grow and employ lots of people, than an oil rig.

I know it isn't as simple as that. But that is the basic complaint I am making. Bush talks about technology for the 21st century, even as he outsources manufactuiring to other countries. Then we see an energy bill that does not emphasize 21st century technology, but rather, is a payback to the "old boys club." It stinks.

 

[loseyourname]

It's OK to mention me by name.

You're not the only one.

The start ups (not upstarts) that I know personally were born out of post-doctoral grant money.

Most of my knowledge of how they get funded comes from the dot.com boom here in the bay area in the nineties. That was funded almost entirely by venture capitalists. Heck, half the people starting the companies hadn't even completed their degrees. I'm pretty sure most biotech startups these days are started by university professors or clinical researchers that have been in the business a long time. It's likely that they largely fund themselves, but I really don't know. My roommate's father startups restaurants and bars and he gets his funding mostly from banks. I don't even know of any energy startups. What companies did you have in mind that you think should receive subsidies?

I agree that you fund basic research. I disagree that this is somehow different than funding start-ups. And the payoff is about the same (between funding basic research and start up companies), in terms of "success stories."

There is a difference, in that university research always has a payoff, even if it ultimately produces no viable technology. It may not have a monetary payoff, but since we're not discussing that kind of investing anyway, it doesn't matter. It pays off in that the knowledge gained is public - not a protected trade secret - and that many graduate students received good training in the process. Startups don't offer degrees.

But you make some good points.

Thank you for acknowledging that.

 

[pattylou]

I'm pretty sure most biotech startups these days are started by university professors or clinical researchers that have been in the business a long time.

Nothing in my earlier suggestions would preclude them from getting funding. This group of people is a different group than Exxon, Mobil, etc.

It's likely that they largely fund themselves, but I really don't know. My roommate's father startups restaurants and bars and he gets his funding mostly from banks.

The few I know, try to make ends meet by (1) finding investors and (2) using whatever information (research results and so on, to give them an edge) they can, from their federally funded research. If you find a gene, for example, that makes a protein that repels mosquitos, you might have the bright idea to start a company based on this gene (think of the applications: Malaria, West nile, camping comfort, etc) before (while) you publish your work. So, you are federally funded and you do that work in good conscience while at the same time looking for commercial applications.

I don't even know of any energy startups. What companies did you have in mind that you think should receive subsidies?

None specifically, but let me google...

Wow. If you plug "solar cell manufacturers" into google, and take the first hit, you go here:

http://www.solarbuzz.com/solarindex/CellManufacturers.htm

And *very quickly* see that the vast majority of companies are not US based.

So! I would suggest funding the few US based manufacturers. This would, incidentally, be consistent with "funding technology for the 21st century" which Bush likes to claim that he does. *Those* would be the sorts of companies I would direct the subsidies to, so that China, India, Japan ---- don't run with the market like some of them did with hybrid cars.

Does that seem reasonable to you? It seems obvious to me, and I am curious if I am "out to lunch" on this.

There is a difference, in that university research always has a payoff, even if it ultimately produces no viable technology.

In my experience it is the norm that a grant gets funded for proposing to accomplish X.

Often, it then fails to accomplish X and the primary investigators scramble to explain why the money was still well-spent, since, after all, the work ultimately accomplished Y, and could they get a new grant out of this?

I'm not cynical on the system (it seems unreasonable to me to predict scientific findings or meanderings or questions-that-will-arise before the research is completed.) But I disagree that "university research always has a payoff" as what I saw is the results being politicked to look good. On the other hand...

many graduate students received good training in the process. Startups don't offer degrees.

Good point, and agreed, but again, the start ups I am familiar with were born by post-docs doing their post doc. I'd give specifics, but that would be uncomfortably personal. Not that we started a company, but we do work for one such.

Thank you for acknowledging that.

You seem like a bright and balanced person. You're welcome.

 

[SOS2008]

Well, again, I haven't read the bill, but the article says that the tax breaks are earmarked for R&D. Presumably, there is little research to be done in drilling for more oil and building more dams.

I tend not to trust earmarking. A recent example is how money has been used by states for homeland security...a lot of it didn't go toward security at all. BTW, some of the R&D is for research into extracting more fossil fuel reserves.

There are alternatives that could be available right now. Why aren't these in place for full-scale use, right now? We know these companies have had the capital to do the R&D already. What really should be done is taxing these companies for not pursuing alternative energy. A much better incentive, wouldn't you say? And if companies like BP are doing their part, they would keep the tax breaks.

Instead we (the government, the people) are to provide assistance for R&D, from which they will reap the profits. Come on, how can anyone think there isn't any back-scratching going on, and as usual at the expense of the American citizen.

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

What really should be done is taxing these companies for not pursuing alternative energy.

It may be a bit niave or simplistic but I have been told that taxing large corperations in reality only hurts the consumer. The idea being that the taxes simply become another business expense which is passed on to the consumer through raised prices. Is this not really the case? Because it always seemed to make sense to me. If so perhaps there are other better ways of influencing these companies than taxing them.

 

[loseyourname]

What really should be done is taxing these companies for not pursuing alternative energy. A much better incentive, wouldn't you say? And if companies like BP are doing their part, they would keep the tax breaks.

Come on, SOS. In business, as in psychology, positive reinforcement generally works better than negative reinforcement. How do you treat your kids?

Instead we (the government, the people) are to provide assistance for R&D, from which they will reap the profits. Come on, how can anyone think there isn't any back-scratching going on, and as usual at the expense of the American citizen.

The expense of the American citizen? You don't think the American citizen has anything to gain from the development of new and better energy technologies? Of course there is back-scratching going on. There always is in politics. Such a thing doesn't preclude a positive impact on the citizenry.

 

[loseyourname]

Wow. If you plug "solar cell manufacturers" into google, and take the first hit, you go here:

http://www.solarbuzz.com/solarindex/CellManufacturers.htm

And *very quickly* see that the vast majority of companies are not US based.

So! I would suggest funding the few US based manufacturers.

I know you're big on solar, Patty, but don't forget where you live. It isn't a feasible option nationwide, especially on the northeastern seaboard, where most of the people in this country live. Remember the disaster that was the Citicorp center?

 

[The Smoking Man]

Come on, SOS. In business, as in psychology, positive reinforcement generally works better than negative reinforcement. How do you treat your kids?



The expense of the American citizen? You don't think the American citizen has anything to gain from the development of new and better energy technologies? Of course there is back-scratching going on. There always is in politics. Such a thing doesn't preclude a positive impact on the citizenry.

Now you're taking the piss aren't you?

We all know about Reaganomics and other forms of fantasy fiction.

Reality is ... when there are extra profits, they pay dividends.

As far as how they explain it ... creative accounting.

Yeah ... the average American Citizen has TONS to gain from alternate fuel sources and he will eventually get there ... but only after 'big energy' has bled the well dry.

Given the record of most of your large corporations in the USA, when in the last few months do you think they actually grew the moral backbone you attribute to them?

 

[loseyourname]

Once again, Smoking Man, I have to ask what the hell you are talking about. I've said nothing about any trickle down employment theories, stock payoffs, or moral backbones. I've made several assertions. To sum up:

1) If you're going to give breaks to energy companies, you should give breaks to companies with a track record of developing successful technology.

2) If you want to develop feasible alternative sources - which right now, equal nuclear and hydrogen - you give money to the companies that have been developing those technologies successfully.

3) It would be irresponsible of the government to invest large sums of money in startup companies that may or may not fare well and may or may not develop any usable technology.

That's about it. I don't see the problem everyone has here. We're trying to lessen our dependence on fossil fuels, right? Well, good. This bill gives only 19% of its money to fossil fuel companies, most of which I would imagine is to tap into natural gas resources, which are still relatively abundant and are clean burning. Do you have any specific objections to this bill? Do you have any specific counterarguments to my claims? Or are you just going to continue to tangentially bash everything big-business and Republican, regardless of whether or not it has anything to do with this bill or anything in this thread?

And what the hell do you mean by I'm taking a piss? I've never heard anyone use that expression except to refer to the emptying of one's bladder, so I have no clue what you're talking about.

 

[selfAdjoint]

So if we want to invest in spacetravel, just as an example of your reasoning, Lose, then we should throw money at NASA, which has all that experience? Instead of investing in some risky startup like, say, Rutan?

 

[loseyourname]

That is what the government does, isn't it? As far as I know, NASA is entirely funded through taxpayer money.

If you want to invest, I recommend taking a risk, just so long as you do your research and diversify your portfolio to mitigate that risk. It doesn't work the same with tax breaks and subsidies.

 

[The Smoking Man]

Once again, Smoking Man, I have to ask what the hell you are talking about. I've said nothing about any trickle down employment theories, stock payoffs, or moral backbones. I've made several assertions. To sum up:

1) If you're going to give breaks to energy companies, you should give breaks to companies with a track record of developing successful technology.

Great. And 19% goes to the oil companies who's last major development was unleaded.

2) If you want to develop feasible alternative sources - which right now, equal nuclear and hydrogen - you give money to the companies that have been developing those technologies successfully.

I think I have asked this before ... obliquely, I'll admit ... When the heck did Nuclear EVER become viable?

Hydrogen great ... http://www.treehugger.com/files/2005/03/env_hydrogen_fu.php Now when do we realize that this is not a 'nationality thing'. Japan decided to come to the fore in computer design and mandated that ALL major computer companies contribute manpower and funding to a central 'Japanese' consortium for this purpose.

What we NEED since this is a global problem is an intelligent approach to a global solution modeled on the Japanese 'computer' consortium.

2050 is the date projected for the collapse of the oil industry. Between now and that time things are going to heat up very quickly. We have already seen the USA block the purchase of UNOCAL by a Chinese company when they declared oil a National Security Issue.

Just when are things going to get REALLY nasty? When do we act? ... When the rockets are launched or NOW when we can prevent the crisis?

3) It would be irresponsible of the government to invest large sums of money in startup companies that may or may not fare well and may or may not develop any usable technology.

Then again, that company on the 'treehugger' link above probably won't even show a blip on the taxation system but they DO have a working prototype.

The problem with 'taxation rebate schemes' is that they rarely deliver the funding to the right people. Another inherent flaw is that as the oil gets more expensive when it becomes rarer, revenues go up along with taxes along with tax rebate percentages.

Given my druthers, I would much rather that the equivalent amount rebated to big oil be sunk into that Intelligent Energy company or the like in the USA. This can't be created with some form of automated system that does not compute in a 'result' variable into the equation. Invariably, anyone with a good accountant will claw back more money than they deserve.

That's about it. I don't see the problem everyone has here. We're trying to lessen our dependence on fossil fuels, right? Well, good. This bill gives only 19% of its money to fossil fuel companies, most of which I would imagine is to tap into natural gas resources, which are still relatively abundant and are clean burning. Do you have any specific objections to this bill? Do you have any specific counterarguments to my claims? Or are you just going to continue to tangentially bash everything big-business and Republican, regardless of whether or not it has anything to do with this bill or anything in this thread?

Well, I must admit that the larger funding will end up in the area of the companies with the largest revenues. Now, a quick review of just who those companies are and the 'pull' they have had with the government in general, just who do you think they will be?

Do you think that companies like the Enrons and Halliburtons will be completely on the Up and Up (one gone bust after illegal activities in accounting and the other repeatedly fined for illegal activities)? Do you think the same White House that allowed Ken Lay to choose the EPA inspection team isn't going to do something creative?

Good god man, even some of the funding provisions in 'Homeland Security' for costal defense was diverted into ALABAMA ... a landlocked state!

Trusting this legislation is like believing there were WMD in Iraq and that it wasn't about Iraq sitting on the second largest oil field in the world behind the Saudis.

And what the hell do you mean by I'm taking a piss? I've never heard anyone use that expression except to refer to the emptying of one's bladder, so I have no clue what you're talking about.

Sorry, I'll try not to use real English on you next time.

 

[The Smoking Man]

Once again, Smoking Man, I have to ask what the hell you are talking about. I've said nothing about any trickle down employment theories, stock payoffs, or moral backbones.

Oh, yes and before I forget ... there is an awful lot you do always gloss over.

The above list is the byproduct of the type of scheme that is being presented.

Each incarnation has had numerous names over the years but it all boils down to the same thing.

I am really surprised that Bush has been allowed to use it twice during his term. First the rebate to create jobs and now the rebate to create alternate energy. Wow.

It's a bit like The Longest Yard ... Just how many times must Americans take the ball in the nuts before you see a pattern forming and can predict the outcome?

Oh, and just so you know, Arthur Anderson designed the ethics course at Harvard.

"The problem is that the good Lord didn’t see fit to put oil and gas reserves where there are democratic governments." Guess who said that and guess what he paid in fines while addressing the problem?

Capitalism is diametrically opposed to working in a democratic system. THAT's why the capitalists of America have abandoned America. They pursue the bottom line not fairness or honesty. That often takes them outside the USA and outside the law (In some circles it's called globalization and that is what all the protests are about. ).

 

[The Smoking Man]

Most of my knowledge of how they get funded comes from the dot.com boom here in the bay area in the nineties. That was funded almost entirely by venture capitalists. Heck, half the people starting the companies hadn't even completed their degrees. I'm pretty sure most biotech startups these days are started by university professors or clinical researchers that have been in the business a long time. It's likely that they largely fund themselves, but I really don't know. My roommate's father startups restaurants and bars and he gets his funding mostly from banks. I don't even know of any energy startups. What companies did you have in mind that you think should receive subsidies?

Oh, and as a final thought before I hit the sack. (That's a term meaning go to bed. And yes, I am 'taking the piss'.)

I received my education into just what 'big energy' does while working at American Electric Power in Columbus, Ohio for three years.

Most of the energy they create comes from burning coal.

Due to EPA guidelines, they were required to install what are called 'scrubbers' to prevent 'nasty things' from going into the air and burning the forests of Canada.

They installed them with grants from the feds.

They get turned on about once a year when there is an inspection. (There is never a surprise inspection by the way. They are always notified beforehand.)

They say they are 'too costly to run' and cut into the bottom line.

I remember going to a seminar one day as part of my employment there as a 'consultant' in how to make it past the press without actually saying anything incriminating.

But then, I'm sure your 'room-mate's dad's start-ups of restaurants and bars' is much richer than my experience specifying parts of the Swiss banking system in Frankfurt, Germany, too.

 

[pattylou]

I know you're big on solar, Patty, but don't forget where you live. It isn't a feasible option nationwide, especially on the northeastern seaboard, where most of the people in this country live. Remember the disaster that was the Citicorp center?

Doesn't matter. Do the same thing with wind, or hydraulic, or hydrogen, or...

And actually, there are solar success stories in Maine. Weird, eh? I think it is more generally useful than people think. I don't have statistics on hand, but was surprised a few months ago when I googled it.

 

[2CentsWorth]

In a recent speech, Hillary Clinton spoke about the Democrat platform and America's future. On the topic of energy, she shared a vision in which American companies would invent new forms of energy that not only would create jobs and profits within our country, but could become a new and wonderful export. She went on to say these are the kinds of things our country needs not only to recover economically and to end dependency on foreign oil, but to renew the American dream. In my mind this would mean giving assistance to start-ups that not only have a proven track record, but to properly reward those who have taken the initiative without federal bribery. Unfortunately the GOP view of the future is a continuation of multinational monopoly and global exploitation.

 

[selfAdjoint]

I think I have asked this before ... obliquely, I'll admit ... When the heck did Nuclear EVER become viable?

It never became nonviable. The predjudice against it is merely political. Advocate groups who react to the word nucleus rhe way 16th century Germans reacted to the word witch.

 

[The Smoking Man]

It never became nonviable. The predjudice against it is merely political. Advocate groups who react to the word nucleus rhe way 16th century Germans reacted to the word witch.

Unfortunately, we don't really have witches but I can point out Chernobyl, Three Mile Island, Candu Reactors, Nuclear waste, dirty bombs, North Korea and Iran to name but a few.

Chernobyl in fact had a sister station however the ex-Soviets can't afford to decomission it.

I'll send you here: http://www.chernobyl.info/

Now prove there were witches in the 16th century.

 

[selfAdjoint]

Chernobyl was the bad old USSR design, Three Mile Island never hurt anybody. Nuclear weapons are not the same thing as nuclear power. No info on Candu. Nuclear waste can be handled as it is, but a better solution would be to build IFR reactors which can "eat" high-rad waste and produce low-rad waste that can be safely stored. Dirty bombs are an urban legend; once again, weapons and power are not reasonably connected. Take a gander over at the Nuclear Engineering subforum.

Your response reminds me of the sermons against witches that fired the people's imaginations back there in the 16th century.

 

[The Smoking Man]

Chernobyl was the bad old USSR design, Three Mile Island never hurt anybody. Nuclear weapons are not the same thing as nuclear power. No info on Candu. Nuclear waste can be handled as it is, but a better solution would be to build IFR reactors which can "eat" high-rad waste and produce low-rad waste that can be safely stored. Dirty bombs are an urban legend; once again, weapons and power are not reasonably connected. Take a gander over at the Nuclear Engineering subforum.

Your response reminds me of the sermons against witches that fired the people's imaginations back there in the 16th century.

I KNOW you'll love this image

I won't bother with the debate here.

It's raging in enough places.

Suffice it to say, I don't agree.

I'm surprised you have not heard of the Candu though!?

I just tried a search on 'Candu Reactor' and got glowing reports over a number of pages.

Then I did a search on'Candu Reactor Cracks' and was equally surprised.

 

[The Smoking Man]

Doncha LOVE Ben Sargent? http://us.news1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/uc/20050802/sbs050801.gif

 

[loseyourname]

Great. And 19% goes to the oil companies who's last major development was unleaded.

Or funding the building of hydrogen fueled public transit fleets and fueling stations.

I think I have asked this before ... obliquely, I'll admit ... When the heck did Nuclear EVER become viable?

It's provided power to a large part of southern California for decades. Maybe if that company you worked for in Ohio had switched, we wouldn't have to worry about all the acid rain in Canada destroying lakes and rivers.

Well, I must admit that the larger funding will end up in the area of the companies with the largest revenues. Now, a quick review of just who those companies are and the 'pull' they have had with the government in general, just who do you think they will be?

Well, I just finished looking over the bill (it's extremely long and I couldn't read all of it) and I can see that there aren't any rebates whatsoever earmarked to any specific companies. Looks like this fuss over 'big energy' was nothing more than a fuss. The rebates are for any company or provider that meets certain standards. Very few have anything to do with oil. Most of the fossil fuel incentives have to do with running 'clean-burning' coal plants and tapping into natural gas resources.

And just to make Patty happy, there actually are rebates in there for installing photovoltaic systems in buildings. They just aren't considered viable for public utilities purposes, which are focusing on hydroelectric and nuclear power, along with a huge number of conservation incentives, in this bill.

You might want to try reading the bill before you bash it next time.

Good god man, even some of the funding provisions in 'Homeland Security' for costal defense was diverted into ALABAMA ... a landlocked state!

Alabama is on the gulf coast, genius.

Sorry, I'll try not to use real English on you next time.

How do you expect me to be familiar with a colloquialism from a country I've never been to?

 

[loseyourname]

The above list is the byproduct of the type of scheme that is being presented.

Each incarnation has had numerous names over the years but it all boils down to the same thing.

I am really surprised that Bush has been allowed to use it twice during his term. First the rebate to create jobs and now the rebate to create alternate energy. Wow.

Trickle down economic theory states that if you give tax breaks to businesses, they'll have more money to spend on labor, creating jobs. The opposing theory, I suppose, is that we should either tax businesses more and give the money to the poor so that they don't have to get jobs, or have the government directly create jobs. Let's see how you're applying this to energy.

This bill provides tax incentives to companies that meet certain cleanliness standards, conservation standards, tapping of new resource, installation of solar panels on commercial builings, etc. So what is the antithesis to this "trickle-down" theory as you're choosing to call it? We tax energy companies more and use that money to clean up the environment after we've ruined it? We tax them and the government uses that money to buy its own generators? I don't see how the energy situation is all that analagous to employment.

Capitalism is diametrically opposed to working in a democratic system.

What on Earth are you talking about? Is that why capitalism has been so successful in communist and fascist countries and so unsuccessful in democratic countries? Yet another tangential rant that has nothing to do with the energy bill, which I'm sure you haven't even bothered looking at.

 

[loseyourname]

But then, I'm sure your 'room-mate's dad's start-ups of restaurants and bars' is much richer than my experience specifying parts of the Swiss banking system in Frankfurt, Germany, too.

So you have a bigger dick than me. Does that have anything to do with who is being more evenhanded in their evaluation of this bill?

 

[The Smoking Man]

Or funding the building of hydrogen fueled public transit fleets and fueling stations.

They have to develop the fuel first and they have no incentive to do so.

It's provided power to a large part of southern California for decades. Maybe if that company you worked for in Ohio had switched, we wouldn't have to worry about all the acid rain in Canada destroying lakes and rivers.

Hey, you don't get it ... They don't give a rat's keester either way. All they know is they get a tax break for owning them. That is IN FACT what I have been telling you. The rebate system is flawed when there is no check for compliance or targetting of goals.

Well, I just finished looking over the bill (it's extremely long and I couldn't read all of it) and I can see that there aren't any rebates whatsoever earmarked to any specific companies. Looks like this fuss over 'big energy' was nothing more than a fuss. The rebates are for any company or provider that meets certain standards. Very few have anything to do with oil. Most of the fossil fuel incentives have to do with running 'clean-burning' coal plants and tapping into natural gas resources.

Don't worry. Big energy has had teams of lawyers and accountants running over it for you and will cut to the heart of the matter.

And just to make Patty happy, there actually are rebates in there for installing photovoltaic systems in buildings. They just aren't considered viable for public utilities purposes, which are focusing on hydroelectric and nuclear power, along with a huge number of conservation incentives, in this bill.

You might want to try reading the bill before you bash it next time.

LOL, I just told you how the largest supplier in the NE USA tapped the 'conservation incentives' in the last bill. They didn't have to even break stride to collect on this one too.

Alabama is on the gulf coast, genius.

Sorry, I meant Arkansas ... Oooo and it also appears that becasue Oklahoma has the Canadian River, they get some cash too! Goo ooo oooly Sargeant! We kin eat in Mayberry Tonight!

How do you expect me to be familiar with a colloquialism from a country I've never been to?

Oh, no reason ... just thought you might have seen a movie or two.

 

[danAlwyn]

And just to make Patty happy, there actually are rebates in there for installing photovoltaic systems in buildings. They just aren't considered viable for public utilities purposes...

Out of curiosity, why? If we could drop the real cost of solar cells by a factor of two with research investment, it might be possible to deal with the energy crisis once and for all. If I did my calculations correctly, a moderate clime gets on the order of 4 kWHrs/day/square meter. That's about 20 square meters per household for a state like California, which isn't so bad. If we can double the efficiency (which is possible) solar farms in Arizona could power Phoenix, Los Angeles, San Diego and probably Texas as well-which would be a pretty big load off conventional power sources. You would need some advances in power storage for nighttime operations, but it's certainly moving closer and closer to viable.