I can get her to be alone with me

[Mentallic]

No, you're still using each other; it's just that, potentially, neither of you actually cares.

When two children that don't know each other play together at a park one day, knowing full well they won't see each other again, are they using each other? Of course they are, they're using each other for fun. If the kids weren't going to have fun playing then they wouldn't do it. This isn't as bad as the usual case of someone using you for their own personal gain at the expense of your happiness.

 

[DaveC426913]

When two children that don't know each other play together at a park one day, knowing full well they won't see each other again, are they using each other? Of course they are, they're using each other for fun. If the kids weren't going to have fun playing then they wouldn't do it. This isn't as bad as the usual case of someone using you for their own personal gain at the expense of your happiness.

Poor analogy. A person's sexuality is, by societal definition (and need), a private thing. Sharing something private of yourself is not the same thing as public playing in a sandbox.

It is this use of something which is private and intimate, while not caring about it, that connotes "using" someone.

I'm not passing judgement, I'm just trying to apply some logic and semantics.

 

[Mentallic]

Hmm yeah you're right. In that case, I agree that neither party members care.

 

[DanP]

Again: such as?

You have to understand that sex for me it is not in itself an intimate thing. I don't feel I have reached a deeper level of intimacy only because I had sex with a girl. Sex comes into play very fast in any relationship, way before you develop any real connection to your partner. Way before you love, way before a strong bound it;s been formed, way before a strong trust between partners is formed and many times it comes into play even before you commit to a relation. Many of us do sex for fun and do not require love or a special connection to be formed before it. It's nothing to be ashamed of.

So what exactly do you want to hear ? An exhaustive list of things ? It won't happen. But to give you an example, spending the overnight at her place is requiring more intimacy then having sex with her.

Is that respectable--you don't even know her name?

It is. A first name basis is enough sometimes. Respectability has nothing to do with a family name.

No, you're still using each other; it's just that, potentially, neither of you actually cares.

Forgive me, but you seem bent to project your feelings onto what other persons do think.
Nobody uses anyone. This is just bollocks. I could very well extend your belief and say that you use your wife for sex. Just that she doesn't care. DO you feel you use your wife / girlfriend ? Does she feels used ?

Can't say that I do; but getting angry with you for not having a sexual relationship with her, sounds remarkable crazy, or otherwise totally contrived.

Strong infatuation can breed such feelings in otherwise completely normal humans.

But that sort of thing does happen, all of the time; just hasn't to me (gratefully). I'm sure it's no picnic.

It does. Asteroids also drop on earth. I shall now begin to dwell on how Ill cope when an asteroid will hit my home.

 

[xxChrisxx]

I seriously hope the OP's posts are a level, and we've been taken for fools in elaborate troll. Taking into account this one and his previous, if they are serious, they are really really creepy.

 

[DanP]

Poor analogy. A person's sexuality is, by societal definition (and need), a private thing.

The society should get over it. The "need" of the society to keep sexuality buried, repressed has already caused untold damage to certain groups.

Think for example the gay community. Many of them are (still) afraid to reveal their sexuality for fear of misunderstanding and reprisals from the bulk of the society. Forcing humans to live a lie, way to go "society" :P Politicians doing escorts after campaigning for public office with his wife and kids near him, preaching family values; priests doing altar boys while preaching temperance and the regular person on the street who is afraid to talk about sex, but wanking regularly to some internet porn page; this is the society :P

 

[DaveC426913]

The society should get over it.

Society is what it is. It is the collective sensibilities of all its constituents.

And it sees sexuality as an intimate thing.


This is all complete straw man. I'm surprised you didn't throw in a Nazi example.

Think for example the gay community. Many of them are (still) afraid to reveal their sexuality for fear of misunderstanding and reprisals from the bulk of the society. Forcing humans to live a lie, way to go "society" :P Politicians doing escorts after campaigning for public office with his wife and kids near him, preaching family values; priests doing altar boys while preaching temperance and the regular person on the street who is afraid to talk about sex, but wanking regularly to some internet porn page; this is the society :P

 

[DanP]

And it sees sexuality as an intimate thing.

But you do realize how stupid is this thing ? It may take up to several years to develop a close social relationship with a high degree of intimacy when sex is routinely done after a couple of dates.

I'm surprised you didn't throw in a Nazi example

Why use Nazis of 1/2 century ago when I can just throw in the prejudices of today's society :P

 

[DaveC426913]

But you do realize how stupid is this thing ? It may take up to several years to develop a close social relationship with a high degree of intimacy when sex is routinely done after a couple of dates.

That is one man's opinion. Which is fine, but if you base the entire previous argument of yours on that opinion, then it really just becomes a wishful-thinking scenario. "Wouldn't it be nice if society were this way", which is a completely different topic and thread.

Why use Nazis of 1/2 century ago when I can just throw in the prejudices of today's society :P

Either one. They're both strawmen and just as irrelevant to the topic at-hand.

 

[DanP]

That is one man's opinion. Which is fine, but if you base the entire previous argument of yours on that opinion, then it really just becomes a wishful-thinking scenario. "Wouldn't it be nice if society were this way", which is a completely different topic and thread.

So what is your opinion ? Is it or not easy like hell to have sex with someone but much harder to built a intimate close social relation ? Or you think that you should waith a couple of years till you get a intimate relation, then have sex ?

Either one. They're both strawmen and just as irrelevant to the topic at-hand.

The moment you introduce society in the discussion of sexuality the topic of homosexuality is hardly irrelevant.

 

[DaveC426913]

So what is your opinion ? Is it or not easy like hell to have sex with someone but much harder to built a intimate close social relation ? Or you think that you should waith a couple of years till you get a intimate relation, then have sex ?

I am not opining; I am simply clarifying the concept of using someone.

Air is a public thing. No one questions someone using someone else's air. A toothbrush, on the other hand, is a private thing. "Using" someone else's toothbrush is a valid concept because it is a personal thing.

Same with sex.

Playing in a sandbox is a public thing. no one questions two people playing together. But the act of sex, on the other hand, is a private thing. "Using" someone else for the sex is a valid concept because it is a personal thing.

As previously noted, this does not mean anybody gets hurt, or anyone is unwilling. What it does mean though, is that the "can I use you" question is there (even if implicit) and cannot be dismissed as not existing.

Likewise, you do not need ask to someone to breathe air near them, but you should ask (at least implicitly) to use their toothbrush.

The moment you introduce society in the discussion of sexuality the topic of homosexuality is hardly irrelevant.

It is irrelevant to this topic.

 

[DanP]

I am not opining; I am simply clarifying the concept of using someone.

I was asking you, because I am curious to see what you think

 

[DaveC426913]

I was asking you, because I am curious to see what you think

The original question has been kind of lost. Seems to me, the question being asked was: should sexuality be a private thing as opposed to being on display for the public.

I am for it remaining private.

 

[DanP]

I am for it remaining private.

Im rather more interested in opinion over *intimacy* rather than *privacy*. They are very different IMO.

 

[DaveC426913]

Im rather more interested in opinion over *intimacy* rather than *privacy*. They are very different IMO.

The point is, in our society as a whole, they are pretty much synonymous. Even if you don't want it to be intimate, you still need to clear that with your chosen partner. No matter how liberal society becomes, it will never reach a point where no one prefers intimacy, therefore you will always have to check.

 

[DanP]

The point is, in our society as a whole, they are pretty much synonymous. Even if you don't want it to be intimate, you still need to clear that with your chosen partner. No matter how liberal society becomes, it will never reach a point where no one prefers intimacy, therefore you will always have to check.

I wouldn't go as far to call the synonyms.

Below is quoted from Wikipedia, but you'll find similar defs in other places as well.


Genuine intimacy in human relationships requires dialogue, transparency, vulnerability and reciprocity.


How often do you think a man and a women dating several times then going to bed together will (the staus quo, mind you, you don't marry every women you sleep with , and a lot of women will also dump their partners ) meet the above factors ?

It's a very long process which does not take place in days or in weeks. It seems to me that sex or "physical intimacy" to use a widely popular term is far far from intimacy in close social relation.

How can a person in his/her right mind expect intimacy with someone you have barely know since 2 weeks ago. With all good intentions, all I could expect is that this is a possible relation with the potential to go well and reach after one year or more the status of intimacy.

So why would you check ? If someone is willing to sleep with you after the initial few dates, you can assume that she see the same thing, the potential for a relation, and nothing more. No one should expect that the women to be so stupid to empty your heart in front of you, share with you her darkest secrets and become totally vulnerable.

So then how the heck can sex be "the most intimate thing youll ever do" ? For me personally the most intimate thing I could ever do is to become vulnerable.

 

[FrancisZ]

It's nothing to be ashamed of.

I'm not talking about shame.

So what exactly do you want to hear ? An exhaustive list of things ?

One honest answer would suffice. And so you have (I suppose)...

But to give you an example, spending the overnight at her place is requiring more intimacy then having sex with her.

Not to insult you: I can understand that perhaps, personally, you would feel that you are demonstrating a great propensity for deep feelings by hanging around afterward. However: how much more close can two people literally be, than when one is physically attached to the other? Dancing with someone isn't even that close. I would dare to say, that sexual intercourse requires at least as much trust between partners as dancing.

It is. A first name basis is enough sometimes. Respectability has nothing to do with a family name.

It is being indifferent, and I don't think that indifference is respectful.

Forgive me, but you seem bent to project your feelings onto what other persons do think.

I simply do not agree that the kind of relationship advice you're propagating is ideal. Is it feasible? Yes. You can bed down anyone you want; but don't be surprised when someone you initially thought was indifferent, turns out not to be.

I could very well extend your belief and say that you use your wife for sex.

I'll be honest with you: the woman that I loved, I truly wanted at any moment that I was beside her. And when I wasn't with her, I dreamed of her even. A sort of wish fulfillment, I suppose.

It is not the desire (as good or evil) that is in question; it is how you deal with it. My wife, had I married her, I would never dare lay a hand upon, unless I thought it comforted her too--that it showed her how much I cared. And that is even despite how much I wanted her always.

Really, what I am saying is just this: maybe it can never be a purely altruistic act (sexual intercourse); but it surely doesn't have to be selfish. It is supposed to be saying "I love you" to someone. "I love you, and I want to be comfort to you this much." And if a husband does not mean that also, when he asks this of his wife (to be that close), then he is being selfish.

Strong infatuation can breed such feelings in otherwise completely normal humans.

It is a common occurrence, truly; but infatuation is not mature love.

Asteroids also drop on earth. I shall now begin to dwell on how Ill cope when an asteroid will hit my home.

Totally different. You have absolutely no control over space rocks of any persuasions. Ultimately, you do have control over yourself and the decisions you make. Sometimes we make poor decisions. And sometimes that is due to ignorance, and still other times is due to negligence; which are both correctable.

Of course, you also have free will.

 

[DanP]

Not to insult you: I can understand that perhaps, personally, you would feel that you are demonstrating a great propensity for deep feelings by hanging around afterward. However: how much more close can two people literally be, than when one is physically attached to the other?

If you are talking about spatial distance, you are right. However, when talking about psychological distance, how close do you think two ppl who dated several times and decided to have sex can be ? Besides it's role for reproduction, sex is just another tool for closing the distance, not the ultimate "reward" of a close interpersonal social relation. A tool, yeah. It can build the interpersonal relation, like many other things do.

If you advocating refraining from sex until you are convinced that you "love" that person, Id say that while your advice looks good on paper, it's terrible and unpractical in the day to day life.

I would dare to say, that sexual intercourse requires at least as much trust between partners as dancing.

I agree. But humans routinely dance with ppl they barely know at the parties, they swing dance partners, they have fun. They do the same in clubs. In a word, the level of trust needed to dance with someone is extremely low.

It is being indifferent, and I don't think that indifference is respectful.

Indifference is not disrespectful either. But it's not even a case of indifference, in some cases is just playing the game as it unfolds.

I simply do not agree that the kind of relationship advice you're propagating is ideal. Is it feasible? Yes.

You may not agree with it, but its the status quo in many parts of this world. "Serial monogamy", a string of relations with different degrees of success.

You can bed down anyone you want; but don't be surprised when someone you initially thought was indifferent, turns out not to be.

Actually you can't bed anyone you want :P Youll fail miserably a lot of time and youll be rejected. Women are not so weak and naive as you seem to believe they are, because you put all the burden of decisions on man. (i.e refrain from sex until whatever) They are very well equipped to deal with man and their advances, and perfectly capable to
take decisions about their sexual lives.

I'll be honest with you: the woman that I loved, I truly wanted at any moment that I was beside her. And when I wasn't with her, I dreamed of her even. A sort of wish fulfillment, I suppose.

It is not the desire (as good or evil) that is in question; it is how you deal with it. My wife, had I married her, I would never dare lay a hand upon, unless I thought it comforted her too--that it showed her how much I cared. And that is even despite how much I wanted her always.

You use a strange expression. "My wife, had I married her". How can she be your wife if you wasnt married ? I realize this is a personal question, so please do not feel compelled to answer, it is your call.

It is supposed to be saying "I love you" to someone. "I love you, and I want to be comfort to you this much." And if a husband does not mean that also, when he asks this of his wife (to be that close), then he is being selfish.

Its not supposed to say that Francis. As I said, the status quo is to have sex way before you have a meaningful interpersonal relation, way before you know that person, way before you love her/him.

What, it takes several dates to have sex, how can anyone expect sex to be an act of love ?

It is a common occurrence, truly; but infatuation is not mature love.

Its not supposed to be :P

Totally different. You have absolutely no control over space rocks of any persuasions.

No, bot both events are unlikely to take place in the life of a person :P Thats the point. Worry less about things which didn't happened yet. Paralysis by analysis. When **** hits the fan, anyway, you'll find yourself pretty much unprepared despite the fact that you dwelled so much on such choices.

Of course, you also have free will.

Free will ... yes you do. You are also a slave of biology, a slave of social forces, a slave of situation.

 

[DaveC426913]

Actually you can't bed anyone you want :P Youll fail miserably a lot of time and youll be rejected.

Are you deliberately misinterpreting him? Or do you really not get the phrase?

 

[cronxeh]

ok so I can get her to be alone with me sometimes. what should I be doing next to "seal the deal". hand touching->body embracing->hugging etc? basically what should i do to smoothly transition into physical contact?

when we are watching movies in a theater i just can't extend my arms and grab her, but i want to do that, how do i perform it so it seems natural?

Ok let's get back to the original sin.. er post here. Give us a little background here. Is she your friend only, your sister, your mom, your total stranger? How did you meet, what you talk about, are you friends only or there is something more going on?

Under what pretenses did she go to the movies with you, and for what reason did she come over to your house?Dan/Francis/Dave are you guys projecting your own inner thoughts and desires here? That is sweet. Let's help these two people get laid and then condemn them for it.

 

[Mentallic]

I bet it's the same girl as before in his previous thread. He seems like that kind of person - the kind that peeks into your window late at night.

 

[cronxeh]

I bet it's the same girl as before in his previous thread. He seems like that kind of person - the kind that peeks into your window late at night.

THAT kind?

 

[DanP]

That is sweet. Let's help these two people get laid and then condemn them for it.

Im not a pimp

 

[cronxeh]

Im not a pimp

Hey.. priests do it.. ever heard of 'you may now kiss the bride'? Guess what happens later that night? bow chicka wow wow

 

[Galteeth]

that kind?

ghahahhahah

 

[cronxeh]

Maybe he just has a problem. Like a lot of people, he seems helpless, and in need of guidance. Here, take a look at this pamphlet

http://chzoddlyspecific.files.wordpress.com/2010/09/2a4ce30b-142a-4cf3-a818-b8bccfda74a4.jpg

 

[SELFMADE]

Yes she is the girl in my other threads.

Everytime I see her its as if I am seeing her for the very first time. Its been 5 months since I met her. The more I know about her seems like more I fall in love with her. I cry sometimes thinking about her. If this is not love then I don't know what love is.

Yes I tried to grab her hand after we got high. She jolted. Then I tried it outside my car as we were walking to the theater. I thought it would be romantic to walk hand in hand. She rejected again. Then in the movie I ask her "how many dates would this be for us" she said "there is NO us" I tried to hold her hand and she skipped one seat away. And yes it was awkward. On the way back I tried holding her hand one more time which she rejected and didn't speak a word till her house then she said "drive safe"

 

[Evo]

Yes she is the girl in my other threads.

Everytime I see her its as if I am seeing her for the very first time. Its been 5 months since I met her. The more I know about her seems like more I fall in love with her. I cry sometimes thinking about her. If this is not love then I don't know what love is.

That is not love, it is an unhealthy obsession.

Yes I tried to grab her hand after we got high. She jolted. Then I tried it outside my car as we were walking to the theater. I thought it would be romantic to walk hand in hand. She rejected again. Then in the movie I ask her "how many dates would this be for us" she said "there is NO us" I tried to hold her hand and she skipped one seat away. And yes it was awkward. On the way back I tried holding her hand one more time which she rejected and didn't speak a word till her house then she said "drive safe"

YIKES! Are you serious? If you're not joking, you need to seek a mental health professional.

Stay away from her. You need to understand that NO means NO.

 

[Mentallic]

We already established that this guy is obsessed in the last thread. He is kind of a psycho in my opinion.
SELFMADE all you have to do is stop seeing her. You'll get over her...

 

[SELFMADE]

I don't think it is that bad. I was just with her few minutes ago. Drove her back from her work. I asked her thru txt if she wanted me to give her ride, she didn't reply so I showed up at her work anyways. I had to see her smile. It had been 4 days since I'd seen her. During these 4 days there wasn't a single moment that passed where it didn't include her. She was in a bad mood today, her bones were hurting, she said she was on shots for 6 years and stopped cus it was making her dependent on it. She got so many ailments. Can u imagine being so frail and alone, not even making minimum wage. One time we went out and she wanted to make a little scene when that bar was closing. Owner and the bouncer wanted her to leave the beer she had in her hands. She refused but I told her they're closing and we should leave. She reluctantly did. Outside she hit on my chest saying I should have protected her. Now I would do anything for her.

 

[Mentallic]

she didn't reply so I showed up at her work anyways

You're a troll.

 

[Office_Shredder]

One time we went out and she wanted to make a little scene when that bar was closing. Owner and the bouncer wanted her to leave the beer she had in her hands. She refused but I told her they're closing and we should leave. She reluctantly did. Outside she hit on my chest saying I should have protected her. Now I would do anything for her.

Seriously?

 

[lisab]

You're a troll.

I'm sort of thinking that too. Either that, or he's in need of help that we can't give on an online forum.

OP, please seek professional help.

 

[Math Is Hard]

This forum is for discussing relationships, not unhealthy, delusional fantasies. Please seek professional help.