Imperialistic History of the United States

[danAlwyn]

If the wars you showed involving the United States showed years upon years of being attacked on our own homeland and defending it with pride and vengeance over and over again. THEN I would think your argument had a leg to stand on.

I think it would also have to involve a substantial portion of the population to consider it ingrained upon our culture.

 

[The Smoking Man]

I think it would also have to involve a substantial portion of the population to consider it ingrained upon our culture.

WHAT? You don't all do commando rolls and yell semper fi or FUBAR?

Say it ain't so!

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

I would have to agree that Quetz9's comment has been seriously misrepresented.
There is no comparing the wars sited by Quetz and the majority of the wars fought by America and I think that you're comparison of the two would likely be found more insulting by most Afghans then Quetz's comment. The term "warrior" is most often a reverant one.
Why are you insulted MaxS? Are you from Afghanistan? Were you brought up in or around a similar culture? I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that you may have a legitimate reason to be but if not then why are you taking it upon yourself to be insulted for them?

 

[The Smoking Man]

There is no comparing the wars sited by Quetz and the majority of the wars fought by America and I think that you're comparison of the two would likely be found more insulting by most Afghans then Quetz's comment. The term "warrior" is most often a reverant one.

Heck, I'd go so far as to say that the statements are stupid enough to be ranked alongside: the Chinese run good laundries, Mexicans are lazy, Indians do good tak-away and Jamaicans all smoke Ganja.

People fight because they have to when they are invaded.

Out of an instinct for self preservation, they use the tools and techniques at hand.

Even Sun Tsu will tell you that you never attack ANY force on its own soil unless you have an incredibly overwhealming force.

This isn't rocket science.

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

Heck, I'd go so far as to say that the statements are stupid enough to be ranked alongside: the Chinese run good laundries, Mexicans are lazy, Indians do good tak-away and Jamaicans all smoke Ganja.

Ah, but you see the difference is in the manner in which you say it. If you're degrading then obviously the people will not be happy. I'm pretty sure that if I make an insult someone is going to be insulted. If I say something positive, especially about something someone may pride themselves on, it will generally be met well don't you think?
Chinese are great businessmen/women.
Hispanics certainly know how to relax and not let the stress of daily life get to them.
Indians have great traditional foods.
Jamaican's tend to be really mellow dudes.
African American's tend to have much better rythme than white people.
Asians seem to do a lot better at math than most other cultures.
ect ect..

People fight because they have to when they are invaded.

Out of an instinct for self preservation, they use the tools and techniques at hand.

Even Sun Tsu will tell you that you never attack ANY force on its own soil unless you have an incredibly overwhealming force.

This isn't rocket science.

From what I understand they have fought well and against great odds. Not only that but they have done it again and again for the past couple centuries or more. How many other countries in the world can boast of that? I think Sun Tsu would have given them a pat on the back.

 

[The Smoking Man]

Ah, but you see the difference is in the manner in which you say it. If you're degrading then obviously the people will not be happy. I'm pretty sure that if I make an insult someone is going to be insulted. If I say something positive, especially about something someone may pride themselves on, it will generally be met well don't you think?
Chinese are great businessmen/women.
Hispanics certainly know how to relax and not let the stress of daily life get to them.
Indians have great traditional foods.
Jamaican's tend to be really mellow dudes.
African American's tend to have much better rythme than white people.
Asians seem to do a lot better at math than most other cultures.
ect ect..

[SARCASM]Oh, well ... if you are going to say stuff like that then fire away. Colin Powell, I am sure, is a good Rapper. [/SARCASM]

Can you say 'patronize'? Sure I knew you could.

 

[MaxS]

Ah, but you see the difference is in the manner in which you say it. If you're degrading then obviously the people will not be happy. I'm pretty sure that if I make an insult someone is going to be insulted. If I say something positive, especially about something someone may pride themselves on, it will generally be met well don't you think?
Chinese are great businessmen/women.
Hispanics certainly know how to relax and not let the stress of daily life get to them.
Indians have great traditional foods.
Jamaican's tend to be really mellow dudes.
African American's tend to have much better rythme than white people.
Asians seem to do a lot better at math than most other cultures.
ect ect..

From what I understand they have fought well and against great odds. Not only that but they have done it again and again for the past couple centuries or more. How many other countries in the world can boast of that? I think Sun Tsu would have given them a pat on the back.

Are you demented or something? Patronizing is still patronizing whether or not you meant it in a "good way."

I'm Jewish but if you tell me I make a lot of money because of my race or religion I'm sure as hell going to take offense, even if you simply meant to compliment me.

If I was black and you said I must be good at basketball I don't think I would be giving you a pat on the back either.

What makes you think if I were Afghan I would be elated that you assume I'm a natural born warrior.

Furthermore, the term "warrior" is not reverent it is dehumanizing, especially when applied to an entire culture. Thats why I was likening "uncivilized savages" to "natural born warriors" - native americans were perceived as natural born warriors too; many people took no pity in their slaughter as a result.

 

[Mercator]

Hey let's start a new fad! The PIC, or patronizing, insulting compliment. Like : Americans look great with combat boots. Japanese have enormous respect for their war heroes. The Taliban are very good at creating a protective environment for their spouses. The Irish have a knack for alternative use of fertilisers. The French are vigorous in organizing pre-olympic events. The American president has great people thinking for him.

 

[MaxS]

Nerds look great in glasses. =D

 

[Mercator]

Cuba is famous for ousourcing of it's penitentiary facilities.

 

[Mercator]

Americans always fly the extra mile to get access to the latest torture technology.

 

[MaxS]

lol i don't think that one can be viewed as even a patronizing compliment

 

[Mercator]

lol i don't think that one can be viewed as even a patronizing compliment

True, it's too close to reality to be a PIC.

 

[Art]

Bush is an inspiration to would be imperialists around the globe.

 

[Informal Logic]

WOW ok chill out, calling the U.S. imperialistic wasn't even the point of this thread bad title get over it

the point was to show that the u.s. has been involved in many many many many armed conflicts, contrasting to the middle eastern list in the other thread

http://www.gandhara.com.au/afghan_table.html

There it is for reference.

P.S. I don't believe the U.S. has ever gone to war to stop genocide. The U.S certainly stopped the genocide in Kosovo but it side stepped Africa entirely. I can't make an intelligent suggestion to what the motivation is, but I don't believe the betterment of humanity has anything to do with it.

P.P.S.

Main Entry: im·pe·ri·al·ism
Pronunciation: im-'pir-E-&-"li-z&m
Function: noun
1 : imperial government, authority, or system
2 : the policy, practice, or advocacy of extending the power and dominion of a nation especially by direct territorial acquisitions or by gaining indirect control over the political or economic life of other areas; broadly : the extension or imposition of power, authority, or influence <union imperialism>

Read that again: Broadly - the extension or imposition of power, authority, or influence

The debate on semantics is constant in this forum, especially words such as imperialism, terrorism, etc. It seems we must go through this process repeatedly.

Back to the topic, we know the US lacks a consistent foreign policy, and many members agree genocide or human rights is no more a factor in policy than regime change, etc. And this is this case from administration to administration, both Republican and Democrat. But good luck getting Americans, particularly neocons to understand or acknowledge this.

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

Are you demented or something? Patronizing is still patronizing whether or not you meant it in a "good way."

Who here is being condecending aside from you, Mercator, and The Smoking Man? If someone sincerely compliments someone it is not generally called patronizing and if it is it is meant in a positive manner.

I'm Jewish but if you tell me I make a lot of money because of my race or religion I'm sure as hell going to take offense, even if you simply meant to compliment me.

If I was black and you said I must be good at basketball I don't think I would be giving you a pat on the back either.

There is a vast and obvious difference between compliments given to individuals and compliments given to a culture that you seem to be ignoring for the sake of your rather juvenile arguement.

What makes you think if I were Afghan I would be elated that you assume I'm a natural born warrior.

Furthermore, the term "warrior" is not reverent it is dehumanizing, especially when applied to an entire culture. Thats why I was likening "uncivilized savages" to "natural born warriors" - native americans were perceived as natural born warriors too; many people took no pity in their slaughter as a result.

I never assumed such a thing. I only stated that I think an Afghan would probably be more likely insulted by your comparison than the comment made by Quetz9.
As far as the term warrior goes...
http://www.google.com/search?q=warrior+tradition&hl=en&lr=&start=0&sa=N
Maybe you are the one that needs to learn about other peoples cultures and be more sensitive to them. Or maybe you can just read up a bit on the Afghan people...
http://partners.nytimes.com/library...-binladen.html?Partner=PBS&RefId=Eutttn-uFBqv
So who's being patronizing here when you take it upon yourself to be insulted for these people and then demean a major part of their culture by saying that warriors are just savages and barbarians?

 

[Mercator]

The Statutory ape's great sense of humor is second only to his averseness of discrimination.

 

[The Smoking Man]

The Statutory ape's great sense of humor is second only to his averseness of discrimination.

He also seems to be fairly indescriminate when he refers to his links.

While he refers to a whole country, you will note that every link without exception under his google search and the reference to Afghan warriors were to a specific subgroup of people actually engaged in being warriors.

He seems unable to differentiate between the two.

I suppose it is the same mentality that sees ALL moslems as terrorists.

Then there is the question of if being a warrior is an admirable trait.

When one views American TV series of the likes of 'Starship Troopers' and that ilk, ones that invariably fail outside of the USA because of the jingoistic 'huaaa!', 'semper fi' content, it's easy to see what they presume to be a 'warrior'.

There is also the 'redefined' warrior that you have pointed out in 'Jack Bauer' of '24' ... The gun toting, torturing 'everyman warrior for the 21st century'.

Yes, let's all be warriors.

Personally, I tend to admire Ghandi a bit more.

 

[Mercator]

Personally, I tend to admire Ghandi a bit more.

Yeah, "Ghandi looked great in simple clothing".
Maybe he is genuine when he states that labeling a group of people "warriors" is meant to be a compliment, from an American perspective.

I went to the "Zheng He" exhibition in Shanghai. What amazes me is the contrast between his travels around the world , which were essentially peace missions, and European marauding half a century later. The Chinese "discovered" the world, long before we did and in the process did not occupy, subdue or conquered a single soul. This in sharp contrast to the European "warriors" trying to loot anything they found on their way.
It took centuries for Europe to become as civilized as the Chinese and I am afraid that our overseas cousins in the US did not get the message yet. Sad observation is that it took two worldwars before Europeans finally saw the light. What will it take for the American warriors to realize they are an antique anomaly in modern time?

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

He also seems to be fairly indescriminate when he refers to his links.

While he refers to a whole country, you will note that every link without exception under his google search and the reference to Afghan warriors were to a specific subgroup of people actually engaged in being warriors.

He seems unable to differentiate between the two.

I suppose it is the same mentality that sees ALL moslems as terrorists.

Then there is the question of if being a warrior is an admirable trait.

When one views American TV series of the likes of 'Starship Troopers' and that ilk, ones that invariably fail outside of the USA because of the jingoistic 'huaaa!', 'semper fi' content, it's easy to see what they presume to be a 'warrior'.

There is also the 'redefined' warrior that you have pointed out in 'Jack Bauer' of '24' ... The gun toting, torturing 'everyman warrior for the 21st century'.

Yes, let's all be warriors.

Personally, I tend to admire Ghandi a bit more.

No culture is filled entirely with warriors so the warrior class will always be a subgroup. But there are many cultures that revere their warriors where the term is synonamous with hero.

As far as this supposed mentality of mine that would see all Muslims as terrorists I'm pretty sure you have read my comments on another thread regarding that and should see that is not the way I think.

Regarding whether or not being a warrior is an admirable trait I think you have to put that down to a case by case basis. Would you disput that the fighting spirit shown by the Afghan warriors in protecting themselves from invasion is admirable? Because these are the people we were originally speaking of.

Regarding these "warriors" found in media, of which you examples are not good ones, I'm quite positive they are also found in the media elsewhere but in different forms more suitable to those cultures.

I don't think anyone here is going to dismiss Ghandi. If you personally can not find any redeeming qualities in the concept of a warrior that's quite alright. But that brings me back to my main point. Why should MaxS or anyone else take offense on behalf of another culture for a comment that it would seem they would possibly find complimentary? Especially when it was meant as a compliment.

 

[The Smoking Man]

I don't think anyone here is going to dismiss Ghandi. If you personally can not find any redeeming qualities in the concept of a warrior that's quite alright. But that brings me back to my main point. Why should MaxS or anyone else take offense on behalf of another culture for a comment that it would seem they would possibly find complimentary? Especially when it was meant as a compliment.

Probably when the members of the other subgroups can see what you say in all innocence IS offensive.

You mentioned in a previous post telling an African American he was a good basketball player. What if you had just called him good at picking cotton?

Sure, you meant that he does his job well but it's that the task is particularly offensive.

Let's not forget that the bulk of the Moslem people see 'Islam' as a religion of peace and are not warrior fanatics. Most would just like to be left alone to their faith.

I don't know ... we all found it pretty funny when Jackie Chan got trashed in Rush Hour II for using the word 'N*gga'.

And I did so love the M*A*S*H episode when the Nutty general came forward and in a court martial hearing accepted the testamony from a 'Balck' soldier ... an then launches into a rendition of "Mississippi Mud" because they got 'nachral rithm'!

People who patronize rarely know when they do it and most of it is done in pure innocence.

What's my right to take offense? I have a nephew called Saddam.

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

You mentioned in a previous post telling an African American he was a good basketball player. What if you had just called him good at picking cotton?

No I didn't. I said, and only as an example, "Black people tend to have better rythme than white people". And the difference is that I did not tell anyone that they are good at picking cotton.
Half of my co-workers are black actually. So for the purpose of this discussion I decided to ask my co-worker who is working with me right now about this particular point. He laughed and said that white people should be offended by the particular statement and not black people. He laughed even more when I told him about your equating the statement to saying black people are good at picking cotton. Ofcourse you have no way of knowing if I really did ask someone about this but I thought I would just throw that out there.
Also, have you ever heard of a movie called "White Men Can't Jump"? It's a basketball movie.
It seems to me that all you can do is take what are harmless compliments and compare them to obvious social taboos.

Speaking of comedy, have you ever seen Carlos Mencia? He's a hilarious stand up comic. Maybe you all should check him out sometime. His whole schtick is that people, like you, take this whole racial sensitivity thing waaaay too far.

So you have a nephew named Saddam. Are you part of the Afghan culture? If so then I will recognize that you have a legitimate reason to take some sort of offense.
Personally my step father and his family are Japanese. I have good friends that are black, hispanic, Korean, Japanese, ect. and they would probably all laugh at you and your reaction here. I don't know any afghans though so I couldn't really ask them what they think. I do know a Palestinian though and an Armenian. Maybe I should ask them what they think. Ofcourse they're still not Afghans.

 

[The Smoking Man]

Speaking of comedy, have you ever seen Carlos Mencia? He's a hilarious stand up comic. Maybe you all should check him out sometime. His whole schtick is that people, like you, take this whole racial sensitivity thing waaaay too far.

There's a big difference between 'Here leeezard leeezard leeezard' and you are really great warriors during a time when you have just been invaded.

I also want to hear about when you tell your buddy just how cool it is that his race has such natural rythm.

 

[MaxS]

Honestly I don't think you could be any more white.

Its wonderful to see you're proud enough of your multi-ethnic friends to post about them on a forum as proof of your good will.

This is like something out of a bad sitcom, I can just see it

"Hey look daddy, Daquan is here!"

*WooooOOOoOoO clap clap clap

"Yo wassup Mr. Cedar."

*Audience laughs

"Oh, hello uh, Daquan, how are you doing today?"

"Yo I'm banging Mr. Cedar, peace out dawg!"

*Audience laughs histerically

"That Daquan, he sure is a character."

*Awwww

"And all this time I thought he was a car thief!"

*Riotous laughter

 

[quetzalcoatl9]

What's my right to take offense? I have a nephew called Saddam.

Ok, how does that have anything to do with it? I have a grandfather named Adolf, so what?

 

[quetzalcoatl9]

Honestly I don't think you could be any more white.

Its wonderful to see you're proud enough of your multi-ethnic friends to post about them on a forum as proof of your good will.

This is like something out of a bad sitcom, I can just see it

"Hey look daddy, Daquan is here!"

*WooooOOOoOoO clap clap clap

"Yo wassup Mr. Cedar."

*Audience laughs

"Oh, hello uh, Daquan, how are you doing today?"

"Yo I'm banging Mr. Cedar, peace out dawg!"

*Audience laughs histerically

"That Daquan, he sure is a character."

*Awwww

"And all this time I thought he was a car thief!"

*Riotous laughter

what exactly is wrong with this? Infact, this reads a lot like what is actually on tv.

Have you ever seen "Undercover Brother"? Remember the skinny white kid intern?

This isn't something that I would expect you fools in china to understand, its something between white and blacks that we both find funny, it is a sign of our racial maturity now in 2005 - we have largely let go of the past tensions and can now laugh at ourselves.

 

[MaxS]

you fools in china?

Thanks for the culture lesson I'm a white American.

If you fail to see anything wrong with what I just posted I don't know dude lol that's bad

 

[quetzalcoatl9]

you fools in china?

Thanks for the culture lesson I'm a white American.

that was for the benefit of other participants.

If you fail to see anything wrong with what I just posted I don't know dude lol that's bad

If you don't live under a rock, then I assume you have watched "The Chappelle Show"? Do you find that funny or offensive?

 

[Mercator]

But we do have our ideas about them, don't we? Let's consider it, maybe we should ask Amrmenians what they think.

 

[Mercator]

that was for the benefit of other participants.



If you don't live under a rock, then I assume you have watched "The Chappelle Show"? Do you find that funny or offensive?

I live under a rock. So please explain. Last comedy I saw was "the office". I know at least three people who could not stop laughing and I was one of them.

 

[quetzalcoatl9]

I live under a rock. So please explain. Last comedy I saw was "the office". I know at least three people who could not stop laughing and I was one of them.

http://www.comedycentral.com/shows/chappelles_show/index.jhtml

It is a very funny comedy show where the host has skits that are almost exactly like the would-be-witty fictional creation that MaxS had satirically posted.

His intent is counter-racist by making fun of every racial group and pushing the limits to absurdity.

It's programming that no doubt would be blocked by China's censorship, if in fact you are where you claim under "location". Maybe you can get a contraband DVD shipped to you.

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

Honestly I don't think you could be any more white.

Its wonderful to see you're proud enough of your multi-ethnic friends to post about them on a forum as proof of your good will.

The Smoking Man has pointed out that he has a nephew named Saddam and that gives him a right to be insulted by certain comments. I'm pointing out that I come from and am in a very diverse environment and have never come across such juvenile reactionism except from white people. Strike that, actually I have been called a racist. I've been called a racist for doing my job as a security officer because when people get pissed off because I won't let them break the rules they like to pull the race card. Other than that the people I know whom you all seem to want to be insulted on behalf of would laugh at you!

Thanks for the culture lesson I'm a white American.

http://www.carlosmencia.com/main.php [fyi: vulgar content - be forewarned] You know it really makes me wonder when the people who seem to get bent out of shape the most over this petty little crap are WHITE.

 

[The Smoking Man]

http://www.carlosmencia.com/main.php You know it really makes me wonder when the people who seem to get bent out of shape the most over this petty little crap are WHITE.

Hmmmm ... Interesting comment.

ARE we all white?

That's a big assumption.

Are we all white because we post on a Physics Forum maybe? Presumably, if we weren't, we'd be on the Oprah site?

I don't think I've mentioned the colour of my skin ... but as you see from the way I spell colour, I am not American.

You also know that part of my family is Moslem.

I have been to Mosques in Istambul and I was supposed to land in Kuwait City on February 11, 1991 but got rerouted due to Desert Storm.

Do I have good rythm? Do I get your laundry 'whiter than white'?

I quoted Carlos Mencia to you ... Who am I and what IS my background?

I live in Suzhou China and speak Chinese, English, French, German and Visayan.

I must be quite the connundrum for you.

Do I have the right to be offended?

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

Hmmmm ... Interesting comment.

ARE we all white?

That's a big assumption.

Are we all white because we post on a Physics Forum maybe? Presumably, if we weren't, we'd be on the Oprah site?

I don't think I've mentioned the colour of my skin ... but as you see from the way I spell colour, I am not American.

You also know that part of my family is Moslem.

I have been to Mosques in Istambul and I was supposed to land in Kuwait City on February 11, 1991 but got rerouted due to Desert Storm.

Do I have good rythm? Do I get your laundry 'whiter than white'?

I quoted Carlos Mencia to you ... Who am I and what IS my background?

I live in Suzhou China and speak Chinese, English, French, German and Visayan.

I must be quite the connundrum for you.

Do I have the right to be offended?

I was referring specifically to MaxS, thank you.
I also happen to spell colour the same way that you do but I was born, raised, and educated here in America. What assumptions have I made about you here so far? What assumptions have been made about me here so far? Were it not for my avatar do you think that MaxS would have still assumed I was white? Even considering my avatar(we'll assume that's actually me) would you still think it would be a fair assumption that I am white? Do you have much of an idea where I live and the sort of people I interact with on a regular basis?

 

[The Smoking Man]

I was referring specifically to MaxS, thank you.
I also happen to spell colour the same way that you do but I was born, raised, and educated here in America. What assumptions have I made about you here so far? What assumptions have been made about me here so far? Were it not for my avatar do you think that MaxS would have still assumed I was white? Even considering my avatar(we'll assume that's actually me) would you still think it would be a fair assumption that I am white? Do you have much of an idea where I live and the sort of people I interact with on a regular basis?

LOL

Well, first of all is the patronizing assumption that one must be OF a race to be offended for a start.

The next is thinking that my little onion peel of my background was not mockery of your criteria for feeling offense.

Your characterization of people who are presumably talented in certain things being based on race presupposes that there are other races not so 'talented' based on their race. Have you ever, for instance, advocated the hiring of a Chinese over someone else because they are 'good at math'?

You have also revealed that you HAVE been accused of racism by 'the sort of people you interact with on a regular basis'.

And since when did I ever 'accuse' you of being white?

I accused you of being 'patronizing'. A person can be 'patronizing' if their address is somewhere on the Sahara.

It was you who started mentioning 'racism' and now bring up the question of:

"Lighten Up America!" You know it really makes me wonder when the people who seem to get bent out of shape the most over this petty little crap are WHITE.

You are aware that racism and patronizing are two sides of the same coin don't you?

Face it. You applied a chriteria to a 'nationality' and not the subgroup of that nationality that engages in that practice which is what all the sites you referenced did.

ie. The sites that mentioned Japanese warriors referenced the minority of that nationality who were known as Samurai. The bulk of that nationality were agrarian based peasants and a mercantile/artisan based middle class. And even then, you will find that there were 'good' Samurai and 'bad' Samurai. It seemed to be your intent to elevate your 'scholarship' to this level because you equate saying the 'Afghanis' are great warriors to saying the minority subgroup of the Japanese people were great warriors.

Don't you actually understand that in the war against the USSR, Afghanistan's 'great warriors' included the Saudi National Ohsama bin Laden with a personal fortune of over $270 million and supplied with American Stinger Missiles and CIA training manuals? That their country was then taken over by a radical Pakistani organization known as the Taliban who became their government? That the 'warriors' supposedly sent to blow up the twin towers were actually 14 Saudi's, a couple of Syrians and maybe an Afghani or two.

Are these the 'great warriors' of Afghanistan?

I don't think you have quite figured out the mentality of the area yet. Religion is of far greater importance to the people. Many fight along lines of religious factions and not based on the borders of countries.

This is, in fact what the whole bogus 'war on terror' is about.

Saddam gassed the Kurds in his own country. The Prime Minister of Turkey was a kurd. Turky denied you the right to launch against Iraq from Turkey.

The Taliban were Pakistani and yet the secular leaders of Pakistan allowed the USA to launch from Pakistan while the USA had to prevent the overthrow of the Pakistani government during the operation.

Now they THINK bin Laden is in Pakistan but there were complaints from the US forces that the local troops were hindering the search by not allowing them to enter the areas alone. This required a visit by the US director of operations in the Middle East to sort things out during a closed door meeting.

These 'warriors' are not the Afghani people. They never have been. They have always been the religious fighters of certain sects directed by their religious leaders in the form of Mullah and Imam. Their 'success' or greatness comes from the religious conviction that their reward will come as a result of their actions of this life in the after life and provides them with a complete disregard for their own lives. This is something that their opponents rarely have. This is what unifies the Muslim warrior and the Samurai against secular forces ... how do you kill a man who has already accepted his own death?

The west is used to looking at a map and seeing national borders and making judgements based on the contents of those borders and the success or failure of battles. What I propose to you is that you attempt to understand other dynamics based on THEIR reality and try to envision a world of radical clerics unified by common philosophy traversing borders and fighting for differing ideologies.

None of this is about 'fences' until you create a secular government in the area like Saddam who actually sees his borders and wonders 'why he no longer rules his province of Kuwait'.

Runsfeld's stupidest statement to date was 'I will not allow the creation of another Islamic State in the Middle East'.

He fails to realize that this has already occurred in both Afghanistan and Iraq based on THEIR interpretations of the area and that he is trying to wrap two round holes around about 5 square pegs.

Why is this pertinent to you?

You have Rumsfeld's vision of people and Geography.