Induction motor as transformer

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the comparison of induction motors (IM) and transformers, specifically focusing on the behavior of stator current under load, the effects of the air gap, and the nature of flux interactions in both systems. Participants explore theoretical aspects, practical implications, and seek clarifications on the underlying principles.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants note that the stator current in an induction motor increases with loading, similar to transformers, and question if the air gap affects this behavior.
  • Others argue that while the principle is similar, the physical arrangement of flux in transformers and induction motors differs significantly, which may influence the stator current.
  • A participant highlights that in transformers, the secondary flux opposes the primary flux, while in induction motors, the rotor flux is circular and does not directly oppose the stator flux, raising questions about how this affects current draw.
  • Some contributions suggest that the rotor acts as a short-circuited secondary, and when it reaches synchronous speed, it behaves differently compared to a transformer secondary.
  • One participant provides a detailed explanation of the behavior of a single-phase motor, discussing the role of rotor bars and their interaction with stator flux, and how this leads to torque generation.
  • Questions are raised about the role of the copper shading ring in single-phase motors and the formation of magnetic fields in multi-pole induction motors.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the nature of flux interactions in induction motors compared to transformers. While some agree on the basic principles, there is no consensus on the implications of these differences or how they affect current draw and motor behavior.

Contextual Notes

Participants acknowledge that the discussion involves complex interactions between magnetic fields and current, with some limitations in understanding how these principles apply across different motor configurations, particularly in multi-pole systems.

Who May Find This Useful

This discussion may be useful for students and professionals interested in electrical engineering, particularly those studying motor theory, transformer operation, and magnetic field interactions in electromechanical systems.

cnh1995
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It is observed that the stator current of IM increases on loading. In transformers, the increase in primary current due to loading is significant . Is it same in induction motor? Does the air gap affect it?
 
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cnh1995 said:
It is observed that the stator current of IM increases on loading. In transformers, the increase in primary current due to loading is significant . Is it same in induction motor? Does the air gap affect it?

The principle is basically the same, yes. Air gap will have most of its effect with the efficiency which will have effects on loading currents. To get a better idea, you could do a bunch of analysis with different loads on the transformer model and the induction motor equ. circuit model.

Here's the link to some info I found: http://myelectrical.com/notes/entryid/251/induction-motor-equivalent-circuit
 
But in transformer, secondary flux is physically in direct opposition to the primary flux and in IM, rotor flux is circular around the rotor bars and stator flux is perpendicular to the bars. How does this weaken the stator flux? Could anyone explain with a diagram?
 
cnh1995 said:
It is observed that the stator current of IM increases on loading. In transformers, the increase in primary current due to loading is significant . Is it same in induction motor? Does the air gap affect it?

Haven't you answered your own question here? The stator in an induction motor can be considered the primary winding of the transformer and the rotor can be considered a short circuited secondary. When the rotor comes up to synchronous speed it is almost as if the secondary has been taken out of circuit.
 
Averagesupernova said:
Haven't you answered your own question here? The stator in an induction motor can be considered the primary winding of the transformer and the rotor can be considered a short circuited secondary. When the rotor comes up to synchronous speed it is almost as if the secondary has been taken out of circuit.
Yes, I know the transformer action,but I don't understand how it takes place in IM. In transformer, secondary flux tries to cancel out primary flux because it is physically opposite in direction to that of primary flux. So, secondary emf tries to "oppose the cause" by means of secondary flux, as per Lenz's law. On the other hand, as per my limited knowledge, IM rotor tries to oppose the cause by rotating and reducing the relative speed, thereby inducing smaller emf than that at standstill. I don't understand how rotor flux opposes the stator flux ? They are not physically in opposition. Stator flux lines are perpendicular to the rotor bars and rotor flux lines are circular around the rotor bars.
full196.jpeg

How does this weaken the stator flux and make the stator draw more current from supply?
 
I'm stuck again on Induction motor..In transformer, secondary flux is physically in direct opposition to the primary flux ,so it makes primary draw more current from supply. But in IM, rotor flux is circular around the rotor bars and stator flux is perpendicular to the bars. How does this try to weaken the stator flux? How does squirrel cage IM act as a transformer??
full196-jpeg.86114.jpg
Let us go to a simpler picture
shaded.gif

Remove the copper shading ring and it's still a single phase motor, just it can't self start.

Now let us simplify our thinking a LOT .

First consider it when rotor is locked.
Stator flux is vertical through the entire height of rotor.
The rotor bars in horizontal plane are a shorted secondary, so large current flows and resulting MMF opposes stator flux, just like in a transformer. Primary current goes up accordingly.
Rotor bars in vertical plane link no flux so might as well not be there.
Remember right hand rule -
Rotor MMF is vertical and opposing stator MMF, so no torque is developed.
That's why a single phase motor needs a start winding.

Now unlock rotor and give it a spin.
Rotor bars in horizontal plane now have velocity relative to stator flux
and so do rotor bars in vertical plane
so now both will have induced current.
Rotor MMF is vector sum of MMF's from both the horizontal and vertical rotor bars.
Remember right hand rule again?
One of those MMF's is vertical(from the horizontal bars) and the other is horizontal(from the vertical bars).
That sum is no longer aligned with stator MMF, so there's a net torque.. That's why you can give an induction motor a spin by hand either direction and it'll take off running that way.As rotor speed approaches synchronous there's less and less relative velocity between rotor bars and stator field, so both amplitude and frequency of rotor current decrease. As you approach synchronous speed, frequency of rotor current becomes lower and lower. In an unloaded motor slip may be just 1RPM , how far is that from DC?
So as it approaches synchronous speed, the induction motor comes to resemble more and more closely a permanent magnet (or maybe reluctance) synchronous motor.. though it never quite arrives.

That's the mental shortcut i use.
It will be re-inforced if you watch an unloaded motor run under a strobe (or fluorescent lights) .
In motors over a horsepower or two, slip is so slow one gets impatient waiting for it to accumulate a single shaft rotation.

Was that any help?
For the single phase motor presented, there's one piece of explanation missing. Care to point it out?
 
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jim hardy said:
Let us go to a simpler picture
shaded.gif

Remove the copper shading ring and it's still a single phase motor, just it can't self start.

Now let us simplify our thinking a LOT .

First consider it when rotor is locked.
Stator flux is vertical through the entire height of rotor.
The rotor bars in horizontal plane are a shorted secondary, so large current flows and resulting MMF opposes stator flux, just like in a transformer. Primary current goes up accordingly.
Rotor bars in vertical plane link no flux so might as well not be there.
Remember right hand rule -
Rotor MMF is vertical and opposing stator MMF, so no torque is developed.
That's why a single phase motor needs a start winding.

Now unlock rotor and give it a spin.
Rotor bars in horizontal plane now have velocity relative to stator flux
and so do rotor bars in vertical plane
so now both will have induced current.
Rotor MMF is vector sum of MMF's from both the horizontal and vertical rotor bars.
Remember right hand rule again?
One of those MMF's is vertical(from the horizontal bars) and the other is horizontal(from the vertical bars).
That sum is no longer aligned with stator MMF, so there's a net torque.. That's why you can give an induction motor a spin by hand either direction and it'll take off running that way.As rotor speed approaches synchronous there's less and less relative velocity between rotor bars and stator field, so both amplitude and frequency of rotor current decrease. As you approach synchronous speed, frequency of rotor current becomes lower and lower. In an unloaded motor slip may be just 1RPM , how far is that from DC?
So as it approaches synchronous speed, the induction motor comes to resemble more and more closely a permanent magnet (or maybe reluctance) synchronous motor.. though it never quite arrives.

That's the mental shortcut i use.
It will be re-inforced if you watch an unloaded motor run under a strobe (or fluorescent lights) .
In motors over a horsepower or two, slip is so slow one gets impatient waiting for it to accumulate a single shaft rotation.

Was that any help?
For the single phase motor presented, there's one piece of explanation missing. Care to point it out?
What is the role of copper shading ring? Also, I studied the RMF generation for 2 pole IM. But I can't analyse a 4 pole motor. How are 4 poles formed? How are individual fluxes oriented? For 2 pole motor, they are at 120 degrees apart physically..What about 4 pole motor?
 

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