Is a Degree in Physics Worthless Compared to Electrical Engineering in Industry?

[Locrian]

Electrical Engineering
starting median:$60,900.00
mid-career median: $103,000.00

Physics
starting median: $50,300.00
mid-career median: $97,300.00

http://online.wsj.com/public/resources/documents/info-Degrees_that_Pay_you_Back-sort.html

Bottom Line: Is Physics near worthless compared to EE post graduation if one wants to work in industry?

Things someone should ask themselves about the above “statistics”.

What does the distribution look like? How does the median compare to the mean? Someone posted a graph of starting salaries of lawyers not too long ago and it was very instructive.

Are those two distributions made up of many other distributions of which you may only be a part of one? What’s the median, mean and variance of the distribution you’re actually going to be in, and what type of distribution is it?

Who cares what the median is, anyways? Are you the median? Does the median tell you anything without at least knowing the variance, too (and how much would that help)? What range do you fall on the curve? How do personal choices (geography, family life, etc.) impact where you’ll end up being?

Are there selection issues that skew the distribution? Could one distribution have its median shifted left or right due to how its boundaries are defined, rather than how good the compensation is? You know, maybe one of them is defined by a professional organization with barriers to entry and the other isn’t?

The fact that anyone would let those numbers above have any impact on their career choice is crazy.

 

[caffenta]

The fact that anyone would let those numbers above have any impact on their career choice is crazy.

Especially when the mid-career medians are within 6% of each other. According to some posts in this thread, you'd think that $97K and $103K is the difference between a hobo with a bindle and a millionaire with 2 summer homes on the French riviera. These numbers mean nothing.

 

[prelude1234]

Go to monster.com and type in Bachelor of Science and see what comes up. I'm sure most of them are 70K + per year.

 

[elabed haidar]

Some subjects by themselves can be useless - depending on what you think is and is not useful/useless. You want other skills to be able to get a job. Physics major can study other things than just Physics. Needed is to know how to operate equipment, know how to handle devices and machines, but at least Physics can help you think about how to study and find solutions for problems or objectives.

Study and get training for more than just one major field; there are useful and related courses to make a person marketable.

hey what can you do other than teaching please reply as soon as possible please and thanks

 

[Tim D.]

READ IF YOU REALLY WANNA KNOW WHAT ITS LIKE TO BE A PHYSICIST!
With a physics degree you can do a lot. I am being serious. The technology advancements of the present day are constantly increasing and the need for a well "trained" person who can think outside the box and do complicated mathematics and also understand the properties of how something may work, the need is increasing. A physics degree should be done because it is something that you enjoy, after all you will be doing it for the rest of your life. The advancement of your career depends all on how much you put into it. To be simply honest with you if your just beginning your college career then within about 5 to 10 years, the time it will take you to get a B.S. to PhD, the industry need for physicists will be very abundant. My prediction is it will be the "degree to have". I must admit that actually doing physics research can be tedious at times. You must really like excel and creating graphs such as histograms and then on top of all that recording every little detail down (and I mean every little detail) in a engineer paper book, because this is simply how being a physicist works. The reason for this is in order for a physicist to report on anything then he/she must perform experiments and create data tables and histogram graphs (usually) to compare and analyze a data set. For example by just looking at a data chart with a bunch of numbers and a histogram a physicist can tell exactly what a satellite in orbit is doing, its path, and if there are any anomalies with it. And as for keeping that log, what if your doing this (the satellite as an example) for a company who is paying you hundreds of thousands of dollars and you, for some reason, drive off a cliff. They will hire a new physicist to replace you, of course, but they will have to start all the research over which puts them back millions of dollars. You will get paid good but you will have to run experiments, collect data, put it all together, and do it all over again and again, and then you will have to write litterally just about every little detail down in your little book, because if something happens to you, the next physicist needs to be able to show up and tell the temperature and the exact spot down to 1 mm (millimeter) +- .05 mm, and needs to be able to know pretty much exactly what you are smelling at that moment (this is a stretch to an extent, but I want you to understand the process will be very rewarding but tedious). But with a degree in physics, if its something that sparks your interest, then it will be very beneficial. It will be rewarding (both mentally and physically), and it will give you a constant challenge that will keep your interests on the edge. As for being worth it, It definitely was and is for me! A career in Physics can lead you down several paths, but I hope this gave you a better understanding of what being a physicist is actually about. And to me I am glad I am not an Engineer, because you want to talk about work! An engineer must take every little detail into account, while a Physicist might decide to take something out or ignore something such as air friction ;), this is all hypothetical of course. To be honest, and this may piss off some engineers, but they are simply a "baby physicist" who in there own right learn a few different things (which in there own right, is difficult) than a physicist. An example is 200 start out in school as a physicist and 199 become engineers instead. A physicist can work as an engineer but an engineer cannot work as a physicist. I hope all this helped and make your choice wisely, but by having a B.S. in Physics background, that will lay out the ground for you to become anything if you decide to change degrees, also a B.S. is really as far as you need to go for most fields, but just like with anything the more you put in (I.E. going for a PhD) the more you'll get out, so YES IT IS WORTH A PhD, it is a difference form being middle class to living well and sometimes very well. NOTE: If you get a B.S. in Physics then you can BS anyone at Physics ;)

 

[elabed haidar]

Its sad when people look/say to me "well what are you going to do with a physics degree." I wish people had the slightest idea of what someone with a physics degree is capable of(in my opinion). I think someone with a physics B.S. would be skilled to handle just about technical task, or at least be trained fairly quickly in it. Some of the problems we solve in this major are incredibly difficult, and if someone can make it through it I know for a fact this person has discipline, persistence, abstract/creative thinking. Almost half of the freshman physics class has switched out of the major since I started because it was too much to handle.

Also, if you look at the statistics from 2009 physics graduates that someone posted not long ago, almost none of them didn't have a job. Its not a dead end, and its a great foundation for anything in my opinion.

thank God for this answer i really respect you man

 

[Geronimo72]

Archi, I would DEFINITELY go with EE. My physics degree (with decent GPA and election into honor society) meant very little to potential employers. Unless you are particularly brilliant and can get a top position with cutting edge research, forget physics. It's a dead area as far as employment (especially when compared to engineering). Of course, school physics departments and all others with a vested interest in churning out worthless physics degrees will of course disagree.

 

[ZapperZ]

Archi, I would DEFINITELY go with EE. My physics degree (with decent GPA and election into honor society) meant very little to potential employers. Unless you are particularly brilliant and can get a top position with cutting edge research, forget physics. It's a dead area as far as employment (especially when compared to engineering). Of course, school physics departments and all others with a vested interest in churning out worthless physics degrees will of course disagree.

You are also churning out worthless stuff here, because none of what you said has been backed by any statistical evidence.

This forum has plenty of threads that have links to various statistics, rather than just anecdotal evidence.

Zz.

 

[PatrickEE]

To be honest, and this may piss off some engineers, but they are simply a "baby physicist" who in there own right learn a few different things (which in there own right, is difficult) than a physicist. An example is 200 start out in school as a physicist and 199 become engineers instead. A physicist can work as an engineer but an engineer cannot work as a physicist. I hope all this helped and make your choice wisely, but by having a B.S. in Physics background, that will lay out the ground for you to become anything if you decide to change degrees, also a B.S. is really as far as you need to go for most fields, but just like with anything the more you put in (I.E. going for a PhD) the more you'll get out, so YES IT IS WORTH A PhD, it is a difference form being middle class to living well and sometimes very well. NOTE: If you get a B.S. in Physics then you can BS anyone at Physics ;)

Looks like a resurrected thread, but I couldn't help but respond to this insult. It is quite simply not the whole story and doesn't give engineers the credit they deserve.

The way I see it, it is very difficult to go anywhere with a Physics B.S. unless you have other skills. For example, a friend graduated and went to work as a systems admin at an engineering company but only because he had significant computer skills gained through working in a research group - work that had very little to do with physics.
Now, a physicist cannot work as an engineer with a B.S. degree ALONE unless they are very lucky or have significant experience already, they simply lack the coursework and design work that employers are used to seeing. Can they learn it? Of course. That means if a physicist wants to be an engineer, they should really pursue a graduate degree in the field. That is exactly what goes on in my lab. I know of at least 2 physics graduates who are now doing an EE degree, but they had to take some "catch-up" classes first.
Now for my experience: I took a lot of extra physics courses in undergrad, and did far better than most of the physicists in even upper level classes. I chose engineering, but that didn't mean I couldn't be a "physicist". In fact, my graduate work can only be described as physics (we publish in AIP journals).

The vast majority of engineers won't do anything of the sort, and that is the fault of both the students and academia. Engineering coursework is so dumbed down to churn out graduates, and the result is we get engineers who really have no idea what they are doing, and even some who dislike or "don't get" their physics classes. This is DANGEROUS.

My conclusion, and possibly the conclusion to every question about academics, is you get what you put into it. If you think the type of degree you get (physicist or engineer) makes you better than the other guy, get over yourself.

 

[elabed haidar]

Looks like a resurrected thread, but I couldn't help but respond to this insult. It is quite simply not the whole story and doesn't give engineers the credit they deserve.

The way I see it, it is very difficult to go anywhere with a Physics B.S. unless you have other skills. For example, a friend graduated and went to work as a systems admin at an engineering company but only because he had significant computer skills gained through working in a research group - work that had very little to do with physics.
Now, a physicist cannot work as an engineer with a B.S. degree ALONE unless they are very lucky or have significant experience already, they simply lack the coursework and design work that employers are used to seeing. Can they learn it? Of course. That means if a physicist wants to be an engineer, they should really pursue a graduate degree in the field. That is exactly what goes on in my lab. I know of at least 2 physics graduates who are now doing an EE degree, but they had to take some "catch-up" classes first.
Now for my experience: I took a lot of extra physics courses in undergrad, and did far better than most of the physicists in even upper level classes. I chose engineering, but that didn't mean I couldn't be a "physicist". In fact, my graduate work can only be described as physics (we publish in AIP journals).

The vast majority of engineers won't do anything of the sort, and that is the fault of both the students and academia. Engineering coursework is so dumbed down to churn out graduates, and the result is we get engineers who really have no idea what they are doing, and even some who dislike or "don't get" their physics classes. This is DANGEROUS.

My conclusion, and possibly the conclusion to every question about academics, is you get what you put into it. If you think the type of degree you get (physicist or engineer) makes you better than the other guy, get over yourself.

the important thing is that you like it , thanks man

 

[elabed haidar]

what i really want to know is that , a pure physics bachelor degree can be the way to become an engineer?? of course with extra courses??

 

[Geronimo72]

You are also churning out worthless stuff here, because none of what you said has been backed by any statistical evidence.

This forum has plenty of threads that have links to various statistics, rather than just anecdotal evidence.

Zz.

And who is the source of these "various statistics?" When I was a physics major, I read all the pie-in-sky junk in various publications that promoted physics education and was all fired ready to take on the world. Hell, to hear them tell it, I thought I'd have all kind of scheduling problems handling all the interviews. The reality turned out shockingly grim. The woods are full of people with physics degrees who never could find work even remotely related to even engineering. Those salaries mentioned are for the lucky few who actually found and got the good jobs and are still working. The reality for anyone degreed individual is likely to be very different.

 

[PatrickEE]

what i really want to know is that , a pure physics bachelor degree can be the way to become an engineer?? of course with extra courses??

It is tough to do if you're already out of school.
You could:
1. Get a M.S. in engineering. This will probably take the full 2 years given the requirement of catch-up courses (signals/systems, controls, etc) and some engineering design work.
2. If you're still in undergrad, get involved with some projects either with professors or students. Learn design software and project skills.
3. Take the Fundamentals of Engineering exam.

 

[elabed haidar]

It is tough to do if you're already out of school.
You could:
1. Get a M.S. in engineering. This will probably take the full 2 years given the requirement of catch-up courses (signals/systems, controls, etc) and some engineering design work.
2. If you're still in undergrad, get involved with some projects either with professors or students. Learn design software and project skills.
3. Take the Fundamentals of Engineering exam.

i have two questions :
1) what is the meaning of MS?
2) Cant i become a professional engineer with my pure physics bachelor>?thank you very much

 

[ks_physicist]

Depending on the state you are in (if you are in the U.S.), you may or may not even be permitted to take the F.E. exam without an engineering degree from an ABET accredited program.

 

[lifeson22]

As usual, the going attitude is that you should be happy to sacrifice yourself for the privilege of doing physics.

- Pretend you have no other life priorities, like a family, or the desire to travel. A real life interferes with physics.

- Money isn't everything. Especially when there is little of it in your field. Moreover, money disrupts the serfdom culture of graduate school, which takes all your time, and all your labor for barely enough to live in a mexican-style overcrowded apartment feeding off of yesterday's ramen noodles.

Give me a f*cking break. No wonder all physics faculty roam around like a disembodied bunch. No wonder you can't motivate more americans to study physics. It's not that americans are too stupid, or too lazy...

it's just that we don't do exploitation. Tit for tat is how it goes. I'll be happy to produce, so long as you're happy to pay.

 

[elabed haidar]

im from lebanon and i really want to become an engineer with a good degree , and the only way for this to happen is going to australllia , where i was born but you know family here is vey tight , that's one of the main reasons i couldn't go there earlier , but i really want to , so i don't know what's life going to offer me? i just want to know if i have a pure physics bachelor , may i become a mechanical engineer ? or its all over for me , and i have to stick to the fack that I am going to be become a professor in physics? please be honest

 

[chiro]

im from lebanon and i really want to become an engineer with a good degree , and the only way for this to happen is going to australllia , where i was born but you know family here is vey tight , that's one of the main reasons i couldn't go there earlier , but i really want to , so i don't know what's life going to offer me? i just want to know if i have a pure physics bachelor , may i become a mechanical engineer ? or its all over for me , and i have to stick to the fack that I am going to be become a professor in physics? please be honest

I live in Australia, and to get an accredited degree in engineering you complete four years at an accredited university and do 12 weeks of work experience at recognized institution.

Most physics (research) pathways require a standard Bachelor of Science (Physics) degree plus a good honors degree (coursework + mini thesis) before you get accepted into a PhD program.

Many Australian universities have course outlines for each subject on their respective websites, so you might want to check that out.

 

[Lavabug]

As usual, the going attitude is that you should be happy to sacrifice yourself for the privilege of doing physics.

I think the people expressing that opinion are being very honest. Doing what you like for a living is a privilege, people say it doesn't feel like a job. Most people have to haul through manual labor or other unpleasant jobs to make a living.

You have a very wrong idea if you think merely having the degree entitles you to not only a well-paying job, but a cool job as well.

I'm sure professional musicians and artists (the ones that make enough money to live) are in a similar if not worse predicament.

 

[elabed haidar]

I live in Australia, and to get an accredited degree in engineering you complete four years at an accredited university and do 12 weeks of work experience at recognized institution.

Most physics (research) pathways require a standard Bachelor of Science (Physics) degree plus a good honors degree (coursework + mini thesis) before you get accepted into a PhD program.

Many Australian universities have course outlines for each subject on their respective websites, so you might want to check that out.

what if i finish the three years in physics and go to australlia and switch to engineering by going to sydney university , and have a master in professional engineer ?

 

[twofish-quant]

what i really want to know is that , a pure physics bachelor degree can be the way to become an engineer?? of course with extra courses??

Depends on the type of engineer. If you are interested in electrical engineering or software engineering, then you just find someone that is willing to hiring you and put engineer in your business card.

The usefulness of a professional engineering qualification depends on the field of engineering. In civil engineering, it's pretty much required, whereas in electrical and software engineering, it's irrelevant.

 

[twofish-quant]

I think, in general, the Physics dept is undergoing an identity crisis.

Physics departments have been in crisis since the late 1960's.

see http://web.mit.edu/dikaiser/www/CWB.html

Physics is not the type of degree that you just get the degree and then turn it into money. You do need to think very creatively about what you can do with your degree, but it can work out.

 

[Ryker]

I think, in general, the Physics dept is undergoing an identity crisis. Looking at the research programmes at my school (which really has its rep built on engineering), I find either crackpottish or unremarkable ventures.

Are you talking about Physics in general, or just research being done at your school? In either case, assuming you're an undergrad that hasn't made any significant breakthroughs to advance the knowledge of humanity and hence not knowing how hard it is to do so, what makes you qualified to say that the ventures undertaken are unremarkable or crakcpottish?

 

[twofish-quant]

The woods are full of people with physics degrees who never could find work even remotely related to even engineering.

On the other hand if it's interesting work, and they pay $$$$$, I don't really care much what it involves.

 

[twofish-quant]

As usual, the going attitude is that you should be happy to sacrifice yourself for the privilege of doing physics.

If you don't like it, then don't do it.

I don't think that's the attitude. One reason I'm an interesting case study is that things turned out ****really**** well for me.

I got my astrophysics Ph.D., ended up with a nice job.

One thing that is important is attitude. The physics degree is not a meal ticket. You aren't going to be able to take the degree and then exchange it directly for money. You have to be creative and think about what you can do with it. But that's the sort of thing that I like to do.

- Money isn't everything. Especially when there is little of it in your field. Moreover, money disrupts the serfdom culture of graduate school, which takes all your time, and all your labor for barely enough to live in a mexican-style overcrowded apartment feeding off of yesterday's ramen noodles.

But there is life after graduate school...

Give me a f*cking break. No wonder all physics faculty roam around like a disembodied bunch. No wonder you can't motivate more americans to study physics. It's not that americans are too stupid, or too lazy...

But it is going to cause problems with the long term US economy. One problem is that in order to make physics attractive you have to put money into physics, and that involves government spending, and that involves basically rethinking the way that the US economy or any economy is structured.

it's just that we don't do exploitation. Tit for tat is how it goes. I'll be happy to produce, so long as you're happy to pay.

It's a "we" not a "you."

If not physics then what? (Seriously). One thing about physics is that you get to think deeply about how the world works, and that sometimes keeps you out of problems.

 

[chiro]

what if i finish the three years in physics and go to australlia and switch to engineering by going to sydney university , and have a master in professional engineer ?

Engineering programs here don't give much credit. You will probably get at the most credit for introductory maths, physics, chemistry and nothing else.

The engineering programs are more or less specialized and have demanding labs that train very specific skills.

If you want to become an engineer in Australia, get into any accredited engineering course. If you have an interest in physics, then do a double degree or self-study physics in your own time.

One thing I should point out is there is two kinds of engineering programs in Australia. The first is the conventional four year degree. In four years you take all the maths, physics, chemistry, and engineering specific projects in four years and do an internship for 12 weeks to get an accredited degree (in Australia).

The other kind takes five years. You do a three year degree in a science type degree and if you are eligible, you do a two year Masters course which at the end of the Masters, gets you the same accreditation that the four year course does.

If you just want to become an engineer I would do the four year course simply because it takes less time, less money, and has a stronger focus on engineering.

If you want more information about the five year program look at the University of Melbourne website. For any of the four year programs some include ANU, University of Sydney, University of New South Wales, and many other universities.

 

[elabed haidar]

Engineering programs here don't give much credit. You will probably get at the most credit for introductory maths, physics, chemistry and nothing else.

The engineering programs are more or less specialized and have demanding labs that train very specific skills.

If you want to become an engineer in Australia, get into any accredited engineering course. If you have an interest in physics, then do a double degree or self-study physics in your own time.

One thing I should point out is there is two kinds of engineering programs in Australia. The first is the conventional four year degree. In four years you take all the maths, physics, chemistry, and engineering specific projects in four years and do an internship for 12 weeks to get an accredited degree (in Australia).

The other kind takes five years. You do a three year degree in a science type degree and if you are eligible, you do a two year Masters course which at the end of the Masters, gets you the same accreditation that the four year course does.

If you just want to become an engineer I would do the four year course simply because it takes less time, less money, and has a stronger focus on engineering.

If you want more information about the five year program look at the University of Melbourne website. For any of the four year programs some include ANU, University of Sydney, University of New South Wales, and many other universities.

im talking about doing a master in professional engineer in university of sydney , and I've read if i do physics then i do three years master in professional engineer , ill have a master degree in professional engineer
but i have 3 questions :
1) which type of engineer is best these days and why??
2) how can i make sure that my degree in the lebanese university (government) can be accepted in australlia?
3) if i did pure physics , may i still become an engineer in telecommunication or its better to do in mechanical engineer which is also gd?

 

[Immanuel Can]

So 1 out of 10 physics PhDs acquire a professorship, which entails research. But how many physics PhDs out of 10, including the 1 the gets the professorship, actually end up with a job in their field? At research institutes, national labs, research positions at universities, etc... and not just some programming/IT/engineering/wall street job not really pertaining to physics research?

 

[Ryker]

How many? Zero, that's how many. The Chemistry Dept took over most of the jobs. Even for Electron Microscopy, they hire EE's or EP's.

OK, if your answer is zero, then it seems you're suggesting not even the professor gets a job in Physics, which is odd to say the least.

In fact, the so-called National labs really don't hire nationals at all. In the National Lab in my back yard, they are hiring based on countries expertise...eg. China for Chemistry, Russia for mathematical modeling, etc. Every university in the host country is discredited.

I don't think you get the point of a national lab.

 

[Inna]

Yet they have the gall to expect tuition payment for undergraduate Physics. It doesn't even serve the purpose of a filter outside of the field as corporations couldn't care less.

The concept of Physics serving as a filter reminds me of a joke that circulated in my grad school:

A graduate TA is teaching Physics to a bunch of pre-med students. In the middle, a student raises his hand:

"And why do we need to know all this?"

Without missing a beat, the TA replies: "Physics saves lives."

"Oh, yeah? How does Physics save lives?"

"It does not let idiots into medical school."

 

[twofish-quant]

not just some programming/IT/engineering/wall street job not really pertaining to physics research?

Ummmm... Wall Street, engineering, and software companies hire physics Ph.D.'s because the problems that they have pertain to physics research.

What is physics research? My definition is using math to explain the world. It turns out that my career has basically revolved around researching ways to solve one equation, that finds itself all over the place.

d_t phi = del^2 phi

In case you are interested in what that is.

 

[twofish-quant]

"And why do we need to know all this?"

Answer:

You don't.

 

[twofish-quant]

Yet they have the gall to expect tuition payment for undergraduate Physics.

Personally, I don't think they should. I was able to get my physics degree through heavy government subsidized loans and grants. The reason for this is that at some people in the late-1950's, someone figured it would be a bad thing if all of the physicists were Russian, and no one in the US could build bombs that worked. Billions of dollars followed.

 

[rhombusjr]

In fact, the so-called National labs really don't hire nationals at all. In the National Lab in my back yard, they are hiring based on countries expertise...eg. China for Chemistry, Russia for mathematical modeling, etc. Every university in the host country is discredited.

This can't be true (if you're US). A US citizenship is required to work at National Laboratories. I know a Russian professor at my school who can't work at a National Laboratory because he is not a US citizen.

How do you know the hiring practices of that lab? Do you work in their HR department?

 

[Vanadium 50]

A US citizenship is required to work at National Laboratories.

Not true. It may be required to work in certain parts of National Labs, such as X division at LANL. There are hundreds, if not thousands of counter-examples.