Is a High-Cost Undergraduate Degree Worth the Debt for Aspiring Scientists?

[kaos86]

Do all US States charge higher rates for out-of-state students? I'm surprised by this.

I'm surprised, too. I was trying to double check this tuition and I think my calculations are correct. If I do go to this university, I see myself working hard. However, the debt repayment will take years to pay back. What if I do get a good job? I will continue my education to try to earn a Ph.D. in physics. If I get a Ph.D. in physics and I get a good job, will it increase my chance to pay this monstrous debt even faster? It all depends how hard I work as a physicist or find a good well paying job.

 

[lisab]

Do all US States charge higher rates for out-of-state students? I'm surprised by this.

The reason for this is each student's education is heavily subsidized by the state. If a student is from out of state, then it's presumed his family hasn't been paying into the state coffers (through various taxes), so he will have to make up the difference. Also there's less chance for him to stay as a tax-paying resident. So it's not in the State's interest to spend lots of $$$ educating out-of-state students.

As far as I know, all states have higher tuition rates for out-of-state students.

 

[kaos86]

As far as I know, all states have higher tuition rates for out-of-state students.

That is true. I was looking at the U. of Delaware and its a bit expensive as well. Still, better then the U. of Vermont. The only problem I have with U. of Delaware is that its in a suburban area.

 

[Jokerhelper]

I'm surprised, too. I was trying to double check this tuition and I think my calculations are correct. If I do go to this university, I see myself working hard. However, the debt repayment will take years to pay back. What if I do get a good job? I will continue my education to try to earn a Ph.D. in physics. If I get a Ph.D. in physics and I get a good job, will it increase my chance to pay this monstrous debt even faster? It all depends how hard I work as a physicist or find a good well paying job.

My main concern though is that this debt is completely UNNECESSARY and USELESS. The universities in your state offer physics programs that are probably just as good if not even better than Vermont. If you want to go on to get a Ph.D., what really matters is getting good grades, hired in summer jobs at labs, getting some research under your belt and possibly your name published in as many science journals as possible.

If you go on to get your degree for those fees, well best thing that can happen is you will end up getting your bachelor with 180K of unnecessary debt. At worse, when you realize how this will affect your life you will freak out.

 

[Jokerhelper]

The reason for this is each student's education is heavily subsidized by the state. If a student is from out of state, then it's presumed his family hasn't been paying into the state coffers (through various taxes), so he will have to make up the difference. Also there's less chance for him to stay as a tax-paying resident. So it's not in the State's interest to spend lots of $$$ educating out-of-state students.

As far as I know, all states have higher tuition rates for out-of-state students.

Oh I see, thanks. So are they basically like international students (only without the visa charges)?

 

[diazona]

Wait, a transfer student has a bigger chance getting into a hard-entrance university? I should try but I only have a 3.0 GPA from my community college. Do you think it needs to get higher for a better chance? I will try if I only need a 3.0 or higher from the GPA scale.

Sorry if you were confused by my post - I was saying that Princeton doesn't accept transfer students at all.

And I suspect the same is true of most other highly competitive colleges as well (although I'm not sure).

 

[clamchowder]

Sorry if you were confused by my post - I was saying that Princeton doesn't accept transfer students at all.

And I suspect the same is true of most other highly competitive colleges as well (although I'm not sure).

Pretty sure Harvard, Stanford, Duke and those other places do. For the UC system, they only accept junior year transfers though and they aren't exactly cheap either.

What about Canada? College there is less than $47k a year and there's public transport (depends...). And don't get hooked on the whole I have no car and will need transportation thing. $200 in bus passes is nothing compared to $47k tuition or the cost of a car.

Sometimes, private colleges have more financial aid to offer than state, but I don't know about transfer students. Might be worth a look.

I've been looking at colleges too...really glad I recently moved to Cali so I can take advantage of in-state without being bored of this place and needing to leave.

 

[twofish-quant]

Hi, I was wondering if anyone went or transfer to a university and ended up "knee-deep" debt. I wanted to ask this because the university I'm trying to get into is very expensive, but I love everything else about the university. BTW, I'm an out of state student transferring to the University of Vermont.(total tuition for out of state: $45,188)

Is there any particularly reason you have to go to that university? I'm pretty sure that you can find a university with comparable quality of education that is much, much cheaper.

 

[twofish-quant]

My main concern though is that this debt is completely UNNECESSARY and USELESS. The universities in your state offer physics programs that are probably just as good if not even better than Vermont. If you want to go on to get a Ph.D., what really matters is getting good grades, hired in summer jobs at labs, getting some research under your belt and possibly your name published in as many science journals as possible.

Same here concern here. Also if you save $15K in tuition, you can buy a used car that will take care of your transportation needs, and fly yourself first class to physics conferences.

 

[Vanadium 50]

First, let me answer the question at the top. Yes, it's worth it to be in debt for education. Education improves your quality of life, it improves your earning potential, and unlike a car or a house, it cannot be repossessed. Estimates are that a college degree increases the average earning potential by something like a million dollars over a lifetime.

However, one must still ask if the sort of education you will buy makes this a wise investment. UVM is charging 90% of what Harvard or Princeton charges. Are you getting 90% of the education? They don't have a reputation of a strong department, and in looking at the course catalog, I didn't see evidence of a particularly strong program.

You can argue that there is more to UVM than the strength of the physics program - for example, Burlington is a quaint New England town where it might be nice to live. However, now you're buying something in addition to education. That's your choice, but you should recognize that you are doing that.

As far as substantial out-of-state financial aid, it's unlikely. Vermont ranks 49th among the 50 states in state tax revenues (having neither a sales nor income tax), so their university is not overflowing with cash to help non-residents. Rarely, a university can offer in-state tuition to an out-of-state student they are trying to recruit, but this student must be truly exceptional.

If you still are certain you want to go to UVM, you might seriously think about moving there for a year to establish residency. The difference in tuition is $80K over four years, so it would be equivalent to taking an $80K a year job.

 

[lisab]

Oh I see, thanks. So are they basically like international students (only without the visa charges)?

Yes, that's right.

 

[kaos86]

If you still are certain you want to go to UVM, you might seriously think about moving there for a year to establish residency. The difference in tuition is $80K over four years, so it would be equivalent to taking an $80K a year job.

Sounds like a good idea. However, I think I found a good university. The U. of Buffalo is a great place near a large city. The out-of-state resident has to pay $103,952, but with financial-aid it will be $96,653. You guys think its a better choice? I believe this university can be "the one" for me. I have a 3.0 GPA and a transfer applicant needs a 2.5. Transportation is depended on walking, buses, and some metro rail. It's in a large city, so I think I can find a part-time job.

Thoughts please.

Edit:

tuition for one semester is $25,988

 

[turbo]

If you still are certain you want to go to UVM, you might seriously think about moving there for a year to establish residency. The difference in tuition is $80K over four years, so it would be equivalent to taking an $80K a year job.

My niece moved to CA for just that reason. She spent a year waitressing and tending bar to support herself before starting college. It made financial sense.

 

[kaos86]

My niece moved to CA for just that reason. She spent a year waitressing and tending bar to support herself before starting college. It made financial sense.

How old is your niece? And how was this process made? Did she get help from a family member ,or did she borrowed some money to move over there?

 

[turbo]

How old is your niece? And how was this process made? Did she get help from a family member ,or did she borrowed some money to move over there?

She got help from her parents to move out there, but worked her way through college pretty much on her own steam. She's now in her 30s and is a dental hygienist (she went back to school for additional training for that). Good thing, too. Her husband lost his job (industrial electrician) and she was able to support them while he stayed at home with their son.

 

[huskerwr38]

kaos86, this is what you should do. Move to Vermont for a year to establish residency, then go to school. Then you can get in-state tuition...I know it will delay you a year, BUT it will save you tens of thousands of dollars.

Another thought that may save you money, is take a lot of your general education classes at a community college, however, make sure that the classes you take are equivalent with the University of Vermont. A lot of schools establish relationships with the local community college.

 

[DrummingAtom]

If you still are certain you want to go to UVM, you might seriously think about moving there for a year to establish residency. The difference in tuition is $80K over four years, so it would be equivalent to taking an $80K a year job.

My thoughts exactly. This is what I did in my state and it costs me 75% less of what I would have paid. Taking a year off can be annoying but if you use it wisely it can be *very* beneficial. I self studied and worked full time for that year. It made the most financial sense because now I have a great job (relevant to my career goals) while I'm in school.

In my experience, working full time then going to part time after you've been at a place for a bit is a smooth transition. As opposed to getting a job while in school and you have a bunch of limitations initially that need to be brought up during the interview. The hiring manager might be turned off about your "high maintenance" needs. Also, working full time a year before school starts gives you a nice bubble of savings to let you coast through the school years.

 

[kaos86]

She got help from her parents to move out there

She's lucky to have help from her parents. My parents cannot help me to make that big move. I have no money, no job, and no help from my family members. The reason why I want to get away from my state and move up north is because I'm trying to find a state with a large city. I cannot take my car and I need something to get around. It's either walking or biking around the city.

I'm not going to this U. of Vermont. It's too expensive and there program has no "deep" description about the physics programs. All I can smell from the U. of Vermont is "rip-off".

 

[cristo]

kaos86, this is what you should do. Move to Vermont for a year to establish residency, then go to school. Then you can get in-state tuition...I know it will delay you a year, BUT it will save you tens of thousands of dollars.

Isn't it too late now, and that doing this will delay him 2 years (or 1.5, if you can start in the spring semester)?

 

[kaos86]

My thoughts exactly. This is what I did in my state and it costs me 75% less of what I would have paid. Taking a year off can be annoying but if you use it wisely it can be *very* beneficial. I self studied and worked full time for that year. It made the most financial sense because now I have a great job (relevant to my career goals) while I'm in school.

In my experience, working full time then going to part time after you've been at a place for a bit is a smooth transition. As opposed to getting a job while in school and you have a bunch of limitations initially that need to be brought up during the interview. The hiring manager might be turned off about your "high maintenance" needs. Also, working full time a year before school starts gives you a nice bubble of savings to let you coast through the school years.

Taking a year off is really annoying. I remember my brother took a year off from community college and the process to re-admit is annoying. He had to review college algebra because he was going to take trig. I really don't want to fall behind in my studies in physics and trying to practice could be impossible if I was full-time in some restaurant.

 

[huskerwr38]

Taking a year off is really annoying. I remember my brother took a year off from community college and the process to re-admit is annoying. He had to review college algebra because he was going to take trig. I really don't want to fall behind in my studies in physics and trying to practice could be impossible if I was full-time in some restaurant.

Having tens of thousands of dollars of debt is a bit annoying too.

 

[kaos86]

All right everyone. I made my decision thanks to the people in this community. I looked at countless universities and so far I believe the U. of Buffalo is my right choice. Still, I'm looking at more universities and making sure they are a bit cheap in this crappy economy.

 

[lisab]

Having [STRIKE]tens[/STRIKE] hundreds of thousands of dollars of debt is a bit annoying too.

Fixed that . Oh and I agree.

 

[Zhabka]

So, I really must ask, what is the average yearly tuition for students with residency in the state? Looking at the numbers on here my eyes have nearly left my head! In Canada I attend a small undergrad university and pay no more than $6000 tuition for a full course load (not sure what the costs are for out of province/international students). This still seems to be a fraction of the costs for in-state students in the USA. So I really got to ask, what are these US schools offering that costs so much money compared to Canada?

***

Thinking about people borrowing this kind of money so early in their lives (particularly to invest in a career which at best pays little more than 100K a year) seems very troubling. Doesn't this remind anyone of the housing crash?!

If you were to write this up as a business or investment proposal and take it to a bank to request a 200K loan, what do you think they would say? "So you want 200k to invest so that within the next 5 years (minimum) you can expect to make a gross income of 50K a year?"

I suppose the bank might give it too you as they think,"Great! he will be locked in with us forever but still have enough of a steady income to keep up payments!".

***

Hasn't the bubble on these kind of borrowing scheme's been burst? I personally hate borrowing a dime, even if its just a few hundred from my parents when I can't afford food or rent. If I was faced with these kinds of costs for school I would exhaust every other option before fronting that kind of cash.

I find it horrifyingly reckless to make it seem normal for young people to borrow money on this scale.

"Well, we don't think you are responsible enough to be able to buy your own beer yet, but if you need a few hundred grand at 4% interest, don't hesitate to ask."

***

So this makes me wonder, I have only heard about the Open University; never looked much into it yet. Does anyone know is this is a credible place to study that won't put a vacuum to your wallet?

 

[jtbell]

In Canada I attend a small undergrad university and pay no more than $6000 tuition for a full course load (not sure what the costs are for out of province/international students). This still seems to be a fraction of the costs for in-state students in the USA.

The problem here is that nobody wants to pay taxes, and state legislators are scared to raise taxes because they're afraid that they'll be turned out of office at the next election. So in most states, state funding for state-supported colleges and universities has been declining steadily for the past several years. In order to keep going without making brutal cuts in programs, colleges and universities have had to raise tuition and fees correspondingly.

 

[contramundum]

So, I really must ask, what is the average yearly tuition for students with residency in the state?

Around $9,000 US dollars per year for tuition, in-state. Although some states like Michigan cost $13,000 per year, in-state.

 

[wild999711]

So, I really must ask, what is the average yearly tuition for students with residency in the state?

Thought berkeley would be a good example.

http://students.berkeley.edu/finaid/undergraduates/cost.htm

Essentially they add a 23k tuition fee for nonresidents on top of the 12.5k everyone pays. What's surprising is they apparently do the same for grad students.

http://grad.berkeley.edu/admissions/cost_fees.shtml

 

[Jake4]

I only read the first couple pages but I got this from it:

It seems like you know you're going there. This thread has turned into a 'people bring up good points against going there, and you defend it'

UofV is not a groundbreaking-workyourassoff to go to school dude. It seems like you like the atmosphere, and can see yourself there, but practicality needs to come into play.

I commute right now, so it's dumb cheap, but if I was living on campus(meaning BASICALLY all expenses paid) it would be around 12,000 a year. This is a huge university, state school, everything is great about it.

You're going to be 35 years old still paying off your BACHELORS...

I feel like, you're going to do, whatever you're going to do, I don't feel like you're really taking in people's opinions, but I fully agree with the person who said, that is a ridiculous amount of money to be borrowing man. You have no idea where you'll be in 15 or so years, and you have no idea if you'll be in a position to be paying back that much money.


I vote for this being a bad idea, I'm sorry, but practicality wins over most.

 

[Zhabka]

Ha, wow. Well I was reviewing the tuition rates at my university and they are even lower than I thought (and people at my university still complain about them!). For sciences it is roughly $100 Canadian per credit hour (3 credits is a one term course, 24 to 30 credit hours is a full course load for a year). So, books included, you wouldn't be paying more than $4000 per year.

For international students the rates are about 4 times this, so if you come from out of the country it will cost you 12k to 15k per year.

I feel so unbelievably lucky when see what things cost in the USA. How can people say that soon everyone will need a post secondary education in order to find work but then make that education so inaccessible outside of taking on crippling debt when you are still hardly a legal adult? You might as well be burning books.

I know that saying this has gotten old, but that government has to get their priorities straight (not to say Canada's is any gem either).

 

[Ryker]

For international students the rates are about 4 times this, so if you come from out of the country it will cost you 12k to 15k per year.

That's a bit of an underestimation. As an international student I applied to six Canadian universities and tuition fees for a full course load ranged from $CAD 16k - 24.5k.

 

[agm2010]

To the OP:

Why not stop picking out schools that are ridiculously out of your reach? A few weeks ago in another thread I spent quite a bit of my time giving you a rundown of schools in Florida, all of which were deemed "too football oriented" by you. You then proceeded to tell us your plans for applying to Columbia. That's quite the jump from public Florida schools.

You need to sit down and assess what you really want. Then when you find it, make sure it's not highly improbable that you'll be accepted (Columbia), or insanely expensive (U of Vermont). It's fine to apply to these places, but don't put yourself in a position where you'll be trapped if something unexpected happens.

 

[Zhabka]

That's a bit of an underestimation. As an international student I applied to six Canadian universities and tuition fees for a full course load ranged from $CAD 16k - 24.5k.

I was just quoting the tuition rates for my university. It is a small undergrad university so naturally it is a bit cheaper than most.

 

[turbo]

Why not a state land-grant university? There are some real bargains to be had (comparatively). Here's my alma mater.

http://www.umaine.edu/bursar/Tuition_and_Fees.htm

 

[kaos86]

Yeah, don't worry everyone. You convinced me to do more searching. I'm looking at University at Buffalo and other up north universities. U. at Vermont is too damn expensive and I'm not going to risk myself getting into huge debt.

 

[contramundum]

I would recommend checking out the University of Minnesota. Out of state tuition is around $16,000 per year.