Is American Terrorism Justified by Their History of Unethical Actions?

[Smurf]

Damn straight. Now we have to prosecute. Justice must be seen to be done.

Without this, the USA will never be able to take the moral high ground again.

...

...

again? Did I miss the first time?

 

[The Smoking Man]

Those of you interested in the new 'Japanese Nationalism' might want to read this essay:

http://www.japanesestudies.org.uk/discussionpapers/McNeill.html

(No, it's not Chinese)

 

[Townsend]

But that was my point.

I merely cut-and-pasted the title of Russ' thread and changed the word Moslem to American. (And fixed a spelling mistake.)

Russ stated himself that the survey given in the Moslem nations made no mention of the word 'terrorist', just acts that were labelled 'terrorist' AFTER the fact.

You just reaffirmed my observation that it CAN be done with every president over the last 100 years.

Thanks

For the sake of argument let’s just take your point of view on this. I don’t agree with you but I want to move on to some other topics so let's just pretend that I agree for now.

So we agree that America is a nation of terrorist, we are ruthless killers who want to destroy the rest of the world. We deserve to have the terrorist attack and kill us in any way they see fit. Americans don’t even deserve to live.

So are you suggesting that America should be taken over by other countries? Should we voluntarily just hand our military over to and fall under the command of some other more benevolent nation and its people? What nation do you propose take over America? Which form of government should we adopt? What would the world do with the world’s largest stockpile of nuclear weapons? What kind of economy should be placed in with the new government? Should there just be extermination camps set up to execute all of the Americans?

I think that if we are like the terrorist that bombed the WTC or London then America needs a regime change. Any nation that supports terrorism needs to be brought down and the terrorist need to be killed.

So, now that we agree that America is FUBARed, what should be done?

 

[The Smoking Man]

For the sake of argument let’s just take your point of view on this. I don’t agree with you but I want to move on to some other topics so let's just pretend that I agree for now.

So we agree that America is a nation of terrorist, we are ruthless killers who want to destroy the rest of the world. We deserve to have the terrorist attack and kill us in any way they see fit. Americans don’t even deserve to live.

So are you suggesting that America should be taken over by other countries? Should we voluntarily just hand our military over to and fall under the command of some other more benevolent nation and its people? What nation do you propose take over America? Which form of government should we adopt? What would the world do with the world’s largest stockpile of nuclear weapons? What kind of economy should be placed in with the new government? Should there just be extermination camps set up to execute all of the Americans?

I think that if we are like the terrorist that bombed the WTC or London then America needs a regime change. Any nation that supports terrorism needs to be brought down and the terrorist need to be killed.

So, now that we agree that America is FUBARed, what should be done?

I see so now it is your turn to make 'absurd statements'?

You are using American reasoning which imperrils all the people who live in certain greographic area for the actions of the few.

I propose that it is the American people themselves that must take control of their government and prosecute them when they are shown to be deliberately deceptive.

I see the US population as being victims as much as the people of Iraq.

But then, this gets back to the problem we have discussed before as to who is responsible to whom ... Are the govering members of your country answerable to you or are you answerable to them?

Something is REALLY out of kilter over there when you can dog Clinton to death for lies over a BJ and you can just ignore all that has happened in the war in Iraq.

So, where is Ken Starr?

 

[loseyourname]

But that was my point.

Your point in making the jab at states won by Bush was that no matter who they voted for, they'd be voting for a terrorist? Then why bring up states that voted for Bush?

 

[The Smoking Man]

Your point in making the jab at states won by Bush was that no matter who they voted for, they'd be voting for a terrorist? Then why bring up states that voted for Bush?

That we can all use a poll or an election to our advantage.

Let's face it ... your election was not decided over foreign policy anyway.

It was decided by fundamentalist Christians who were called to the vote from the pulpit over some strange and wonderful domestic issues.

 

[Townsend]

I see so now it is your turn to make 'absurd statements'?

You are using American reasoning which imperrils all the people who live in certain greographic area for the actions of the few.

The majority of Americans is not a few. It was a majority who voted for Bush you know. I am only trying to agree with you for arguments sake. Perhaps you need to make yourself clear on what you mean to call America a terrorist nation.

I propose that it is the American people themselves that must take control of their government and prosecute them when they are shown to be deliberately deceptive.

I am an American and last time I check, this country is still based on popular sovereignty. My countrymen are happy without government so your point is worthless.

I see the US population as being victims as much as the people of Iraq.

But then, this gets back to the problem we have discussed befor as to who is responsible to whom ... Are the govering members of your country answerable to you or are you answerable to them?

The population is not the victim, it is the government...the people who disagree with the current actions of the government are actually in the minority.

Something is REALLY out of kilter over there when you can dog Clinton to death for lies over a BJ and you can just ignore all that has happened in the war in Iraq.

Well where are your solutions then man? Are you just one of those people who like to point out a problem but then offer no solutions?

So, where is Ken Star?

What is that suppose to mean?

 

[Townsend]

Let's face it ... your election was not decided over foreign policy anyway.

What did it then? Why would I never vote for a loser like Kerry? You seem to know what did it so please do tell.

It was decided by fundamentalist Christians who were called to the vote from the pulpit over some strange and wonderful domestic issues.

Is that a fact? By fundamentalist Christians? You do not understand the political landscape of the United States all do you?

 

[The Smoking Man]

The majority of Americans is not a few. It was a majority who voted for Bush you know. I am only trying to agree with you for arguments sake. Perhaps you need to make yourself clear on what you mean to call America a terrorist nation.

You're not doing a good job. After a lame attempt, you have quickly devolved into devil's advocate.

Did I call America a terrorist nation or your administration ... There is a difference.

I am an American and last time I check, this country is still based on popular sovereignty. My countrymen are happy without government so your point is worthless.

You're people are happy with 'truth, justice and the American way and still believe it to be just like the opening scenes of 'Superman' in the 50's and 60's.

There is also a certain amount of xeonophobia encouraged by the USA to discourage criticisms etc.

Why, for example is the USA of a position that the World Court should have jurisdiction over all the world but not America?

Who polices the self appointed policeman?

The population is not the victim, it is the government...the people who disagree with the current actions of the government are actually in the minority.

Funny, many of the 'victims' ie. the families of the people who died in 9/11 have come out and condemned the government for actions taken and not taken with respect to their plight.

As far as Bush being a victim ... he had singularly the worst showing of any president in US history up to the day of 9/11 when he became an American 'hero' overnight.

Well where are your solutions then man? Are you just one of those people who like to point out a problem but then offer no solutions?

Have Bush, Cheney and Rumsfeld tried in the world court. If you beleve them innocent, they will be exonerated and the rest of the world will have to STFU.

Do you believe in the impartiality of the world court?

Why did you pull out when you had your first decision against you regarding your activities in Nicaragua?

What is that suppose to mean?

Just what do you think it means?

Clinto lied about a BJ. Bush lied about all the justifications for war resulting in the deaths of 10's of thousands.

Why isn't Starr persuing Bush on these far more serious charges?

 

[Townsend]

You're not doing a good job. After a lame attempt, you have quickly devolved into devil's advocate.

Did I call America a terrorist nation or your administration ... There is a difference.

I don't know, you tell me...seems to me you are calling AMERICA and its people terrorist. Perhaps you need to change your tread title and your position.

You're people are happy with 'truth, justice and the American way and still believe it to be just like the opening scenes of 'Superman' in the 50's and 60's.

Are you trying to sound condescending? Pretending that America is that stupid? Come on...

There is also a certain amount of xeonophobia encouraged by the USA to discourage criticisms etc.

Why, for example is the USA of a position that the World Court should have jurisdiction over all the world but not America?

Why not? If our military and tax dollars the ones doing the work then we have earned the right. That is how I feel.

Who polices the self appointed policeman?

If the world started taking more of the responsibility on without the aid of the US then we would not have to be the police that we are.

Funny, many of the 'victims' ie. the families of the people who died in 9/11 have come out and condemned the government for actions taken and not taken with respect to their plight.

Why is that funny to you? And what does it have to do with the price of tea in China?

As far as Bush being a victim ... he had singularly the worst showing of any president in US history up to the day of 9/11 when he became an American 'hero' overnight.

You're giving me your biased subjective opinion as a fact now?

Have Bush, Cheney and Rumsfeld tried in the world court. If you beleve them innocent, they will be exonerated and the rest of the world will have to STFU.

What about the constitution? We cannot just hand over the President of the United States of America. But it is funny that you think we should and that would somehow fix something. What about the fact that he would only become a martyr for his cause? It is not a solution there TSM, but nice try.

Do you believe in the impartiality of the world court?

I don't care about the world court...never have never will...why should I?

Why did you pull out when you had your first decision against you regarding your activities in Nicaragua?

I don't anything about that...

Clinto lied about a BJ. Bush lied about all the justifications for war resulting in the deaths of 10's of thousands.

That has not be established as a fact.

Why isn't Starr persuing Bush on these far more serious charges?

Because perhaps star is only concerned about selling magazines and not a political agenda?

 

[Art]

Is that a fact? By fundamentalist Christians? You do not understand the political landscape of the United States all do you?

Or perhaps you are too close to the trees to see the wood.

 

[Townsend]

Or perhaps you are too close to the trees to see the wood.

I am agnostic...have been since I was about 11 years old. I know why I feel the way I do and it has nothing to do with a religious beliefs. Perhaps you are assuming too much about me Art. Just pretend for the sake of argument that you are, cool?

Regards

 

[Smurf]

I am agnostic...have been since I was about 11 years old. I know why I feel the way I do and it has nothing to do with a religious beliefs. Perhaps you are assuming too much about me Art. Just pretend for the sake of argument that you are, cool?

Or perhapse he's not talking directly about you. Just a thought

 

[Art]

I am agnostic...have been since I was about 11 years old. I know why I feel the way I do and it has nothing to do with a religious beliefs. Perhaps you are assuming too much about me Art. Just pretend for the sake of argument that you are, cool?

Regards

I'm not assuming anything at all about your personal beliefs. I am merely pointing out that often people on the outside looking in may have a better overall perspective than someone who lives closely day to day with all the individual plots sub-plots and personalities that go into making up american foreign policy.

 

[Townsend]

Or perhapse he's not talking directly about you. Just a thought

Ah, I think I understand...

The people who are the christian fundamentalist are my friends and what not, so I don't seem them for what they are... got it.

The problem with that is that I have lived in four states and been through the trenches with all kinds of people. Everyone of my neighbors is a Muslim as of right now. I am totally serious... I try to make friends but it is very difficult. Most of the Muslims are really smart so I wouldn't mind studying with them but they seem to not like me. I made one friend but for some reason he decided he didn't want to hang out after about the second time I was over at his apartment.

Perhaps I am too close to the wood but I am not sure. I have no friends who are deeply religious and I don't hang around anyone who is. Yet, many of my friends here, in Minnesota and California share my opinions.

 

[Townsend]

I'm not assuming anything at all about your personal beliefs. I am merely pointing out that often people on the outside looking in may have a better overall perspective than someone who lives closely day to day with all the individual plots sub-plots and personalities that go into making up american foreign policy.

...got it...missed your point, sorry.

 

[The Smoking Man]

I don't know, you tell me...seems to me you are calling AMERICA and its people terrorist. Perhaps you need to change your tread title and your position.

If an American creates a thread called Iraq Terrorists, do you assume he means every living breathing human being in Iraq including those liberated by the USA?

Are you trying to sound condescending? Pretending that America is that stupid? Come on...

LOL ... No Comment.

Why not? If our military and tax dollars the ones doing the work then we have earned the right. That is how I feel.

Great, so if I have the cash to buy a Glock, I have the right to knock off a liquor store because I have a gun? Puleeeeze.

If the world started taking more of the responsibility on without the aid of the US then we would not have to be the police that we are.

Ummm ... Don't you get it? That is what the world HAS been saying.

Why is that funny to you? And what does it have to do with the price of tea in China?

Because you stated that the Government of the USA was the victims when in reality, they were condemned by the relatives of the REAL victims and that the government position/popularity was actually HELPED by 9/11.

You're giving me your biased subjective opinion as a fact now?

Well, apart from it actually BEING a fact, why is it that just a few lines up you have the right to state "If our military and tax dollars the ones doing the work then we have earned the right. That is how I feel." And on other threads you make statements 'Do I have to get my own URL and quote myself'?

What about the constitution? We cannot just hand over the President of the United States of America. But it is funny that you think we should and that would somehow fix something. What about the fact that he would only become a martyr for his cause? It is not a solution there TSM, but nice try.

Then you should be happy at the thought that you would be vindicated, right?

I don't care about the world court...never have never will...why should I?

I don't anything about that...

in Nicaragua v. United States the United States of America had previously accepted the Court's compulsory jurisdiction upon its creation in 1946 but withdrew its acceptance following the Court's judgment in 1984 that called on the United States to "cease and to refrain" from the "unlawful use of force" against the government of Nicaragua. In a split decision, the majority of the Court ruled the United States was "in breach of its obligation under customary international law not to use force against another state" and ordered the US pay reparations (see note 2), although it never did.

That has not be established as a fact.

Since when is guilt the reason for having a trial? The reason for having a trial is to establish guilt. Was Clinton's Guilt established before or after the proceedings?

Because perhaps star is only concerned about selling magazines and not a political agenda?

Oh, that's rich.

 

[Townsend]

If an American creates a thread called Iraq Terrorists, do you assume he means every living breathing human being in Iraq including those liberated by the USA?

That is an if that has not happened but if it did then I would assume that he means enough of the Iraqi people to be talking about the nation of Iraq.

Great, so if I have the cash to buy a Glock, I have the right to knock off a liquor store because I have a gun? Puleeeeze.

No, what are you talking about? If I was living in your house because I couldn't afford to take care of my self then I would have to agree to play by your rules. As it is, the world has not been able to prevent terrorism and is not taking the actions needed. As such to secure our nation against terrorism we are taking the action.

Ummm ... Don't you get it? That is what the world HAS been saying.

Well, then let's see it. I want France and Germany and Russia etc...to start going after Terrorist. I don't want another attack on American soil! Got it?

Because you stated that the Government of the USA was the victims when in reality, they were condemned by the relatives of the REAL victims and that the government position/popularity was actually HELPED by 9/11.

The people are the concern of the government...

Well, apart from it actually BEING a fact, why is it that just a few lines up you have the right to state "If our military and tax dollars the ones doing the work then we have earned the right. That is how I feel." And on other threads you make statements 'Do I have to get my own URL and quote myself'?

I was stating my opinion not a fact. For instance, I think China is a terrorist nation. That is an opinion that I am stating as an opinion, now compare that to. China is a terrorist nation. That is an opinion but it is being stated as a fact.

Since when is guilt the reason for having a trial? The reason for having a trial is to establish guilt. Was Clinton's Guilt established before or after the proceedings?

The world court does not govern the people of the United States or their elected representative. I will never believe that it should, understand?

 

[alexandra]

The world court does not govern the people of the United States or their elected representative. I will never believe that it should, understand?

You make yourself perfectly clear: the US is not answerable to any other state in the global community but may, on the other hand, do precisely as it pleases wherever it pleases.

 

[Art]

The world court does not govern the people of the United States or their elected representative. I will never believe that it should, understand?

The world court unlike America does not seek to govern anybody. It's role is to administer justice. Do you have an issue with justice?

 

[The Smoking Man]

That is an if that has not happened but if it did then I would assume that he means enough of the Iraqi people to be talking about the nation of Iraq.

And if I substitute the word 'teddybears' for 'terrorists' then obviously I mean all the people of the USA.

No, what are you talking about? If I was living in your house because I couldn't afford to take care of my self then I would have to agree to play by your rules. As it is, the world has not been able to prevent terrorism and is not taking the actions needed. As such to secure our nation against terrorism we are taking the action.

The Earth IS our house and until 1984, when the USA took exception to a ruling by the world court against them over Niceragua, you also believed in the 'House Rules'.

It appears you have now locked yourself in the Bathroom.

Well, then let's see it. I want France and Germany and Russia etc...to start going after Terrorist. I don't want another attack on American soil! Got it?

Oh, you missed it ... The world supported your invasion if Afghanistan. It was when you yanked your men from there leaving 15,000 to search for the person who actually now admits to blowing up the WTC and stuck the remainder of your forces ... 10X the amount into a country Colin Powell stated in 2001 had been neutered.

The people are the concern of the government...

Yeah ... and it's okay to outsource.

I was stating my opinion not a fact. For instance, I think China is a terrorist nation. That is an opinion that I am stating as an opinion, now compare that to. China is a terrorist nation. That is an opinion but it is being stated as a fact.

Yeah ... and what am I doing?

The world court does not govern the people of the United States or their elected representative. I will never believe that it should, understand?

Sure. I believe you have decided on a course of action that will effectively make you like the USSR of the 1960's ... a pariah.

You were locked out of the EU negotiations with Iran.

Iraq is now negotiating with Iran and has admitted fault in the war which by implication also admits they think you are right there with Saddam.

 

[The Smoking Man]

The world court unlike America does not seek to govern anybody. It's role is to administer justice. Do you have an issue with justice?

The Canadian approach:

http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1122070220401&call_page=TS_News&call_pageid=968332188492&call_pagepath=News/News&pubid=968163964505&StarSource=email&DPL=IvsNDS%2f7ChAX&tacodalogin=yes

Interesting their body count is 7 in Iraq ... 4 were killed by American 'friendly fire'.

"For Canada, the mission marks a critical test of Ottawa's vaunted "3-D" approach to international affairs — defence, diplomacy and development."

For now, that's a safe bet, said Andrew Sullivan, vice-president of the polling firm EKOS Research Associates.

Canadians have an "enormously positive" view of their armed forces, although their understanding of their role in the world today is outdated, he said.

"We still subscribe to that anachronistic view of the peacekeepers ... it's an image that people cling to pretty tenaciously," Sullivan said.

One reason for that is that Canadians like to think their military is somehow different from the U.S. armed forces. Which is why the coming mission in Afghanistan could prove "jarring" to Canadians, he said.

Peacekeeping is 'anachronistic'?

 

[SOS2008]

Well, then let's see it. I want France and Germany and Russia etc...to start going after Terrorist. I don't want another attack on American soil! Got it?

Since everyone else missed this one... Aside from the fact that France has caught quite a few Al Qeada terrorists on behalf of the U.S. and 9-11, are you saying you don't care about terrorism in Madrid, or London, or anywhere except on American soil? Yet you feel these other countries are somehow beholding to us then?

 

[Townsend]

Since everyone else missed this one... Aside from the fact that France has caught quite a few Al Qeada terrorists on behalf of the U.S. and 9-11, are you saying you don't care about terrorism in Madrid, or London, or anywhere except on American soil? Yet you feel these other countries are somehow beholding to us then?

Thats not what I am saying and you know it.

 

[Smurf]

Thats not what I am saying and you know it.

humour usThe message you have entered is too short. Please lengthen your message to at least 10 characters.

 

[Townsend]

humour usThe message you have entered is too short. Please lengthen your message to at least 10 characters.

What is there to humour you about? She is saying that because I said one thing I am inferring something completely different. I never said that and I never meant that. Its just someone trying to put the right spin on words to make them seem like whatever suits them.

Regards,

 

[The Smoking Man]

What is there to humour you about? She is saying that because I said one thing I am inferring something completely different. I never said that and I never meant that. Its just someone trying to put the right spin on words to make them seem like whatever suits them.

I know the feeling.

 

[Townsend]

I know the feeling.

This is one of those situations where I am dammed if do and dammed if I don't. I bet you play a lot of chess.

 

[The Smoking Man]

This is one of those situations where I am dammed if do and dammed if I don't. I bet you play a lot of chess.

Go.

 

[Smurf]

What is there to humour you about? She is saying that because I said one thing I am inferring something completely different. I never said that and I never meant that. Its just someone trying to put the right spin on words to make them seem like whatever suits them.

You've said nothing. You're blaming the rest of the world for the US's problems even though they all disagreed with you doing what caused them in the first place.

 

[Art]

Truth, Justice and the American Way

I can understand why the US gov't is perplexed by the international criticism of their behaviour in Iraq afterall they are only behaving in much the same way they behave at home;

Torture In America's Brutal Prisons
Posted: 07/18
From: ICH

Torture Inc. America's Brutal Prisons

Savaged by dogs, Electrocuted With Cattle Prods, Burned By Toxic Chemicals, Does such barbaric abuse inside U.S. jails explain the horrors that were committed in Iraq?

By Deborah Davies

They are just some of the victims of wholesale torture taking place inside the U.S. prison system that we uncovered during a four-month investigation for BBC Channel 4 . It’s terrible to watch some of the videos and realize that you’re not only seeing torture in action but, in the most extreme cases, you are witnessing young men dying.

http://mathaba.net/0_index.shtml?x=277037

Perhaps this is a new justice model Bush and co. are trialing in Iraq for use back home

Courts resort to rushed justice

With Saddam Hussein's trial looming, Rory Carroll spent a day in court in Baghdad and found it to be secretive, overloaded and quick

In one case this week four men, a father, his two adult sons and a nephew, were accused of possessing a grenade and bomb-making equipment allegedly found by US troops in a raid on their home in Mosul in January.

The trial started at 10.17am. The men said the equipment was for welding and fixing televisions. They knew nothing about the grenade. A female prosecutor in a two-minute presentation demanded the nephew be acquitted but 20 years for the others. The defence lawyer, given the case an hour earlier and seeing his clients for the first time, repeated their explanations. The judges retired to deliberate at 10.50. Five minutes later they acquitted the nephew and sons but sentenced the father, Hassan Muslih, to 20 years because the house title deeds were in his name. US soldiers returned him to Abu Ghraib.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,1531401,00.html

What a wonderful place America is under the current regime.

 

[Art]

I see the UN are trying to achieve an international agreement on a definition of a terrorist and terrorism.

UN seeks definition of terrorism

More than 60 people were killed in bomb blasts in Egypt on Saturday
UN Secretary General Kofi Annan has urged world leaders to agree on a universal definition of terrorism...

A UN treaty has been stalled for years over the definition of a terrorist.

A new UN proposal calls terrorism any act intended to intimidate a population or to compel a government or an international body to act.

It seems likely the US will once again use their veto, as if approved, from the wording above, it would appear to formally recognise that Bush's invasion of Iraq constituted terrorism.

 

[El Hombre Invisible]

"A new UN proposal calls terrorism any act intended to intimidate a population or to compel a government or an international body to act."

I wonder what compel means? Would pressure from, say, human rights activists count? Conscientious news reporting? What about bribes from large companies? Is being elected an act of terrorism, since being sworn to certain duties surely compels your government to act under certain situations. Is invading a nation an act of terrorism against its population?

What if the government wants to perform a nativity play? Will the director be prosecuted for terrorism?

 

[Emieno]

I don't know if my question is off-topical and I am sorry if that is since the thread title is a bit vague to me and I actually don't have much time for a thorough skim over the whole thread. I am wondering how anyone of you here would define what the difference might be between Extreme Violence and Terrorism. I heard some American said ExtremeViolence is not terrorism though,

 

[The Smoking Man]

A new UN proposal calls terrorism any act intended to intimidate a population or to compel a government or an international body to act.

What, you mean like issuing resolutions?

How about if they ignore the UN and invade?