Is Democracy Sustainable in the Face of Human Nature?

[Ryan_m_b]

In my mind the biggest problem with democracy is the assumption that every voter is an informed individual. If we imagine a hypothetical country running a Direct Democracy we see that it should be fine at dealing with most issues if every member is well informed and makes a rational, unbiased decision when voting.

In reality however the majority of voters are uninformed on the majority of subjects (e.g. should a milkman living in the north have the right to vote on the proposal to build nuclear reactors in the south?) and therefore will base their vote either on what their peers tell them or what the media tells them.

I'm also not convinced by the idea that it's "what the majority want". I have a strange colleague who always advocates that if the majority of people want to kill and torture the minority then it is fine. Applied to a democratic country scenarios like that (though not as extreme) represent real problems, for example if 51% of the voters want everyone in the country to live quaint rural lifestyles (circa 1800s) should we just hold our hands up and say "hey, its what the majority want!" when the other 49% who want to live in cities and live modern lives are forced by the will of the former. Another way of posing this problem is if voters have different reasons for voting i.e. one votes for nuclear power because they understand the numbers involved and one votes against because as much as they understand the numbers they have a personal preference to live a medieval lifestyle.

 

[WhoWee]

In my mind the biggest problem with democracy is the assumption that every voter is an informed individual. If we imagine a hypothetical country running a Direct Democracy we see that it should be fine at dealing with most issues if every member is well informed and makes a rational, unbiased decision when voting.

In reality however the majority of voters are uninformed on the majority of subjects (e.g. should a milkman living in the north have the right to vote on the proposal to build nuclear reactors in the south?) and therefore will base their vote either on what their peers tell them or what the media tells them.

I'm also not convinced by the idea that it's "what the majority want". I have a strange colleague who always advocates that if the majority of people want to kill and torture the minority then it is fine. Applied to a democratic country scenarios like that (though not as extreme) represent real problems, for example if 51% of the voters want everyone in the country to live quaint rural lifestyles (circa 1800s) should we just hold our hands up and say "hey, its what the majority want!" when the other 49% who want to live in cities and live modern lives are forced by the will of the former. Another way of posing this problem is if voters have different reasons for voting i.e. one votes for nuclear power because they understand the numbers involved and one votes against because as much as they understand the numbers they have a personal preference to live a medieval lifestyle.

Let's be honest - in discussions on PF - members have argued that Congresspersons don't need to read Bills before voting - 2,000 pages of legal babble is too confusing/tiresome? This - IMO - is the problem - the legislation lacks focus. A Bill about education shouldn't have war funding or green energy (or whatever?) included. IMO again - Congress needs to package legislation in narrow packages that can be voted on yes or no - and in language that everyone can understand. Instead, some very bad legislation (pork and waste) gets packaged into otherwise well intentioned Bills. When that happens, it's very difficult to undo.

 

[Ryan_m_b]

Let's be honest - in discussions on PF - members have argued that Congresspersons don't need to read Bills before voting - 2,000 pages of legal babble is too confusing/tiresome? This - IMO - is the problem - the legislation lacks focus. A Bill about education shouldn't have war funding or green energy (or whatever?) included. IMO again - Congress needs to package legislation in narrow packages that can be voted on yes or no - and in language that everyone can understand. Instead, some very bad legislation (pork and waste) gets packaged into otherwise well intentioned Bills. When that happens, it's very difficult to undo.

All well and good except...I'm British. The bills here don't (to my knowledge) typically have others tacked on. I was kinda shocked to see that on US TV

 

[WhoWee]

All well and good except...I'm British. The bills here don't (to my knowledge) typically have others tacked on. I was kinda shocked to see that on US TV

Yes - IMO - it's a difficult problem. We can't expect the average person to be informed if the information presented is over-whelming.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Yes - IMO - it's a difficult problem. We can't expect the average person to be informed if the information presented is over-whelming.

I would modify that to say that we can't expect the average person to be informed. Who has the time?

I tend to vote more according to the person than the issues. If I think someone has integrity and is smart, capable, compassionate, and passionate, I am willing to trust their judgment. I don't have the time to be an expert - that's why I vote for people that do.

In my view, if we elect good people and then show a little trust, the rest will take care of itself.

 

[WhoWee]

I would modify that to say that we can't expect the average person to be informed. Who has the time?

I tend to vote more according to the person than the issues. If I think someone has integrity and is smart, capable, compassionate, and passionate, I am willing to trust their judgment. I don't have the time to be an expert - that's why I vote for people that do.

In my view, if we elect good people and then show a little trust, the rest will take care of itself.

I generally agree with you on this - the term limits would give us a stop-loss if they forget who gave them the power - IMO.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

I generally agree with you on this - the term limits would give us a stop-loss if they forget who gave them the power - IMO.

It seems to me that the campaign process itself is the problem. With the new superpac money, it will be worse than ever.

I think we need a better method of evaluating candidates. Currently, the signal to noise ratio is near zero. But how do you beat down the noise while preserving free speech?

 

[WhoWee]

It seems to me that the campaign process itself is the problem. With the new superpac money, it will be worse than ever.

I think we need a better method of evaluating candidates. Currently, the signal to noise ratio is near zero. But how do you beat down the noise while preserving free speech?

Aside from debate and unbiased reporting - I don't know? Like them or not - I think the TEA Party will hold their candidates feet to the fire when re-election time rolls around.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Aside from debate and unbiased reporting - I don't know? Like them or not - I think the TEA Party will hold their candidates feet to the fire when re-election time rolls around.

Perhaps so, but will they be asking the right questions, or will it be another ideological fettish session?

Everyone knows we need to reduce spending and balance the budget. As soon as someone says Obama doesn't want to do this, I know they are misinformed and or biased. The question is how best to accomplish that without stalling the recovery. I don't know the best answer to that question and am willing to trust the experts, but I do know the answer is not a simple one that fits in a thirty-second commercial.

The first test of integrity - no real solutions are simple

 

[WhoWee]

Perhaps so, but will they be asking the right questions, or will it be another ideological fettish session?

Everyone knows we need to reduce spending and balance the budget. As soon as someone says Obama doesn't want to do this, I know they are misinformed and or biased. The question is how best to accomplish that without stalling the recovery. I don't know the best answer to that question and am willing to trust the experts, but I do know the answer is not a simple one that fits in a thirty-second commercial.

The first test of integrity - no real solutions are simple

How long has it been since the United States of America has operated under an approved budget plan? It's total nonsense and nobody's fault

Regardless of the topic and whether first proposed by Red or Blue, Left or Right, Liberal or Conservative - we typically end up with an ineffective, massive, and diluted piece of legislation that causes more unintended consequences and bloating of Government than ever thought possible - IMO - 1 step forward and 2 steps back should be the official Beltway slogan. How long has it been since the United States of America has operated under an approved budget plan?

 

[Al68]

It seems to me that the campaign process itself is the problem. With the new superpac money, it will be worse than ever.

I think we need a better method of evaluating candidates. Currently, the signal to noise ratio is near zero. But how do you beat down the noise while preserving free speech?

The campaign process was never intended to be a government regulated process at all. Any limits imposed by government on private campaigns for public office are undemocratic.

Everyone knows we need to reduce spending and balance the budget. As soon as someone says Obama doesn't want to do this, I know they are misinformed and or biased.

I'll take "biased" for $100.

He may "want" to reduce spending, but his actions and proposals have been to increase it. In the real world, actions speak louder than words.

The question is how best to accomplish that without stalling the recovery. I don't know the best answer to that question and am willing to trust the experts...

I'm not. Experts are biased, and therefore disagree between themselves. Why would I trust people who are themselves biased, unless their bias is in my favor?

...but I do know the answer is not a simple one that fits in a thirty-second commercial.

That I agree with, the answer is far more complicated than many "experts" try to convince people of. That's why I don't trust them.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

The campaign process was never intended to be a government regulated process at all. Any limits imposed by government on private campaigns for public office are undemocratic.

Not all solutions have to be provided by the government. In fact, I never said anything about a government solution. [however, I do have a huge problem with the superpacs]

I'll take "biased" for $100.

He may "want" to reduce spending, but his actions and proposals have been to increase it. In the real world, actions speak louder than words.

You are ignoring the second and most important aspect of my statement: How to balance the budget without stalling the recovery. It will do us no good to reduce spending and crash the GDP. For the long term, politics is a process. We can't fix this overnight.

I'm not. Experts are biased

However, to be blunt, neither you, I, or most anyone else here is even capable of understanding the issues. I think a big part of the problem is that everyone's an expert these days. Instead of voting for the best person, we elect someone who agrees with our unqualified, armchair opinions.

For example, I would put almost anything Geithner says ahead of any opinions expressed in this forum. It is a simple fact: He's an expert and no one [or almost no one] here is. As for legitimate points of contention among experts, we are still in no position to judge. This is no different than disqualifying anyone but experts in physics, from debating physics.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

How long has it been since the United States of America has operated under an approved budget plan? It's total nonsense and nobody's fault

Regardless of the topic and whether first proposed by Red or Blue, Left or Right, Liberal or Conservative - we typically end up with an ineffective, massive, and diluted piece of legislation that causes more unintended consequences and bloating of Government than ever thought possible - IMO - 1 step forward and 2 steps back should be the official Beltway slogan. How long has it been since the United States of America has operated under an approved budget plan?

Do you mean a plan that extends beyond the current and next fiscal year? What an outrageously Chinese suggestion!

 

[mege]

I've sometimes wondered if the idea of natural selection could philosophically be applied to social systems.

Don't bring that up in front of a feminist.

There are two things that I think dominate social system evolution and counteract themselves a bit: natural selection and Maslow's hierarchy of needs. As our societal systems become weeded through (Via natural selection) we create more and more overall benefitial systems of government. That beneficial nature of our government (or social organization at a smaller level) creates a prosperity in which we start to get more and more 'fat' (via Maslow's hierarchy) and add inefficiencies. It then becomes an few oppositional forces as we shift along the evolutionary chain of social structures.

 

[Al68]

You are ignoring the second and most important aspect of my statement: How to balance the budget without stalling the recovery. It will do us no good to reduce spending and crash the GDP.

I ignored it because it makes no sense. It's like asking how to reduce someone's rat poison intake without sacrificing their health.

However, to be blunt, neither you, I, or most anyone else here is even capable of understanding the issues.

That depends on what is meant by understanding. I'm certainly capable of understanding many issues to a large extent, even if not fully.

For example, I would put almost anything Geithner says ahead of any opinions expressed in this forum. It is a simple fact: He's an expert and no one [or almost no one] here is. As for legitimate points of contention among experts, we are still in no position to judge. This is no different than disqualifying anyone but experts in physics, from debating physics.

I agree with that for non-political issues, but for political issues it just ignores reality. It's like trusting a car salesman because he's an expert about cars. Far too much power is at stake with political issues to just take any expert at his word about anything. Experts are inherently biased, even if not dishonest, and power and money are motive enough to cause both.

I'm not an expert in physics, but I have a good enough general knowledge to recognize that someone is lying, if they are lying at a level below my level of knowledge, such as a claim that a 1 square meter solar panel on a car's roof could generate 100 HP. As silly as that sounds, it's fairly analogous to the claims of many politicians and economics "experts" about economics issues.

Meaning that a good general understanding of an issue is enough to recognize fraud, if the fraud is designed to fool only those without a general understanding. The economic fraud of the left is a perfect example of that.

 

[tedbradly]

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_bur_percap-crime-burglaries-per-capita

0.000416383 per 1,000 people

Wow, I wish the US chopped off the hands of thieves.

The problem with democracy is everyone turns into a kitty, incapable of enforcing a bit of brutality to realize an overall better society.

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_rap_percap-crime-rapes-per-capita

And I also wish we executed rapists. I just cannot understand any other punishment for such a horrible (and alluring) crime.

The US has 100 times the rape per 1000 citizens and 17000 times the burglary per 1000 citizens as Saudi Arabia.

edit: For reference, I'd chop off a few innocent peoples' hands to achieve 17000 times less burglary.

 

[Ryan_m_b]

The campaign process was never intended to be a government regulated process at all. Any limits imposed by government on private campaigns for public office are undemocratic.

Just an interesting factoid, the budget for campaigns in the UK is heavily regulated and balanced between parties to ensure that richer parties cannot just buy their way in. Compared to the US the total cost of the entire General Election is less than that of the cheapest Senator in the US!

 

[WhoWee]

Do you mean a plan that extends beyond the current and next fiscal year? What an outrageously Chinese suggestion!

Exactly - ever try asking a bank for a $10,000 business loan without a plan.

 

[WhoWee]

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_bur_percap-crime-burglaries-per-capita

0.000416383 per 1,000 people

Wow, I wish the US chopped off the hands of thieves.

The problem with democracy is everyone turns into a kitty, incapable of enforcing a bit of brutality to realize an overall better society.

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_rap_percap-crime-rapes-per-capita

And I also wish we executed rapists. I just cannot understand any other punishment for such a horrible (and alluring) crime.

The US has 100 times the rape per 1000 citizens and 17000 times the burglary per 1000 citizens as Saudi Arabia.

edit: For reference, I'd chop off a few innocent peoples' hands to achieve 17000 times less burglary.

Do you have any idea how much it would cost in lifetime Government benefits as a result of chopping the hands off a 20 year old?

 

[Ryan_m_b]

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_bur_percap-crime-burglaries-per-capita

0.000416383 per 1,000 people

Wow, I wish the US chopped off the hands of thieves.

The problem with democracy is everyone turns into a kitty, incapable of enforcing a bit of brutality to realize an overall better society.

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_rap_percap-crime-rapes-per-capita

And I also wish we executed rapists. I just cannot understand any other punishment for such a horrible (and alluring) crime.

The US has 100 times the rape per 1000 citizens and 17000 times the burglary per 1000 citizens as Saudi Arabia.

edit: For reference, I'd chop off a few innocent peoples' hands to achieve 17000 times less burglary.

Lol, why don't you go and chop your own hands off and then wave them at people as a deterrent?

EDIT: I also wouldn't trust any statistic coming out of Saudi Arabia over any crime, least of all rape http://www.hrw.org/en/news/2007/11/15/saudi-arabia-rape-victim-punished-speaking-out

 

[drankin]

The problem with democracy is everyone turns into a kitty, incapable of enforcing a bit of brutality to realize an overall better society.

IMO, Another problem with Democracy. The erosion of masculine identity and personal responsibility.

 

[tedbradly]

Do you have any idea how much it would cost in lifetime Government benefits as a result of chopping the hands off a 20 year old?

The simple solution is to make void any government benefits after caught thieving. Let him die.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

I ignored it because it makes no sense. It's like asking how to reduce someone's rat poison intake without sacrificing their health.

This suggests to me that you have no idea that a connection exists. What would happen if we yanked 4 trillion from the economy over the next ten years? If you can't tell me the answer, then you have no business defending such legislation.

That depends on what is meant by understanding. I'm certainly capable of understanding many issues to a large extent, even if not fully.

Could you do Geithner's job?

I agree with that for non-political issues, but for political issues it just ignores reality. It's like trusting a car salesman because he's an expert about cars. Far too much power is at stake with political issues to just take any expert at his word about anything. Experts are inherently biased, even if not dishonest, and power and money are motive enough to cause both.

That may be true, but non-experts are still essentially clueless.

I'm not an expert in physics, but I have a good enough general knowledge to recognize that someone is lying, if they are lying at a level below my level of knowledge, such as a claim that a 1 square meter solar panel on a car's roof could generate 100 HP. As silly as that sounds, it's fairly analogous to the claims of many politicians and economics "experts" about economics issues.

This assumption is false because you have no way to know what you don't know. You are assuming you can make sense of complex issue for which you have little or no training. This is no different than claiming String Theory is wrong because you don't understand it. It may be wrong, but neither you or I are qualified to even guess why.

Meaning that a good general understanding of an issue is enough to recognize fraud, if the fraud is designed to fool only those without a general understanding. The economic fraud of the left is a perfect example of that.

So then you don't think our problems are complex and beyond the understanding of the average person, it is all just a matter of fraud? Forgive me for being blunt, but that is incredibly naive.

 

[Al68]

This suggests to me that you have no idea that a connection exists.

To the contrary, as was obvious by my response, a connection certainly exists. Government spending in general is harmful to the economy.

What would happen if we yanked 4 trillion from the economy over the next ten years? If you can't tell me the answer, then you have no business defending such legislation.

Is it opposite day? I have been opposing such legislation while you have been defending it. Government taxation and spending comes from the economy.

Could you do Geithner's job?

Of course not. Mass fraud and pillage require special talent, and a moral code (referenced in https://www.physicsforums.com/showpost.php?p=3323950&postcount=4") that I reject.

This assumption is false because you have no way to know what you don't know.

I most certainly have a way to know that a claim of a 1 square meter solar panel generating 100 HP would be a false claim, despite not being a solar power expert. That was my point. It takes only a basic understanding of physics, not solar cell expertise, to recognize such fraud.

You are assuming you can make sense of complex issue for which you have little or no training. This is no different than claiming String Theory is wrong because you don't understand it. It may be wrong, but neither you or I are qualified to even guess why.

That's a pretty bad example, since no one on the planet knows enough about string theory to know if it's wrong or right. I know enough about it to know that it's empirically untestable as it currently stands.

So then you don't think our problems are complex and beyond the understanding of the average person, it is all just a matter of fraud? Forgive me for being blunt, but that is incredibly naive.

How on Earth could you misread my post so bizarrely? I have said specifically and repeatedly that the reason the left can get by with their fraud is specifically because economics is beyond the understanding of the average person. And forgive me for being blunt, but: Duh!

Try reading the posts you respond to. It would certainly save a lot of trouble and completely useless posts.

 

[Tosh5457]

In democracy most people vote on who the media tells them to vote. People also vote on people who gives them the most benefits, and people who have good carisma/looks. It has nothing to do with rationality. Then we put our own faith on hands of politicians, and most are incompetent. That's democracy

However it seems to work. People from Europe, USA and Japan can't complain, we have very good living standards. There are many problems with democracy, but anything different than democracy would lead to much more corruption and less benefits to the majority of the population. Or not, maybe some other well-thought system could be better than democracy.

The most important thing that countries need to do is to unite and promote global environment and resources sustainability, and to stop global warming. Those are the issues to address in politics that nobody wants to talk about. I refuse to worry about superficial things in politics until solutions to these problems are given.

 

[alt]

Democracy; Two wolves and one lamb voting on what's for dinner ..

 

[russ_watters]

I'm not sure the liberals in this forum will go for an analogy that has the rich people being lambs and the poor people wolves, but I'm onboard with it.

 

[WhoWee]

I'm not sure the liberals in this forum will go for an analogy that has the rich people being lambs and the poor people wolves, but I'm onboard with it.

Since we're having fun - not wolves - hyena's.
http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl...dsp=18&ved=1t:429,r:16,s:131&biw=1135&bih=841

 

[alt]

OK then - I suppose we'll have to settle for Anarcho Capitalism ..

According to anarcho-capitalists, personal and economic activities would be regulated by the natural laws of the market and through private law rather than through politics. Furthermore, victimless crimes and crimes against the state would not exist.

Anarcho-capitalists argue for a society based on the voluntary trade of private property and services (including money, consumer goods, land, and capital goods) in order to maximize individual liberty and prosperity.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarcho-capitalism

 

[Al68]

OK then - I suppose we'll have to settle for Anarcho Capitalism ..

According to anarcho-capitalists, personal and economic activities would be regulated by the natural laws of the market and through private law rather than through politics. Furthermore, victimless crimes and crimes against the state would not exist.

Anarcho-capitalists argue for a society based on the voluntary trade of private property and services (including money, consumer goods, land, and capital goods) in order to maximize individual liberty and prosperity.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarcho-capitalism

That's essentially equivalent to libertariansm, except that laws are made and enforced by a government instead of a private institution. The actual scope of the authorized legitimate use of force is virtually the same either way.

One could also argue that an anarcho-capitalist private law making and enforcement institution is a defacto government by definition, rendering the distinction completely semantic.

 

[alt]

That's essentially equivalent to libertariansm, except that laws are made and enforced by a government instead of a private institution. The actual scope of the authorized legitimate use of force is virtually the same either way.

One could also argue that an anarcho-capitalist private law making and enforcement institution is a defacto government by definition, rendering the distinction completely semantic.

Yes, interesting observation in your 2nd para.

I shy away from labels usually, because they are, or rather peoples use of them is, often quite fluid.

I wonder though, what label would one ascribe to those in A Rands 'Atlas Shrugged' gulch ? Anarcho capitalism probably ?

 

[Al68]

Yes, interesting observation in your 2nd para.

I shy away from labels usually, because they are, or rather peoples use of them is, often quite fluid.

I wonder though, what label would one ascribe to those in A Rands 'Atlas Shrugged' gulch ? Anarcho capitalism probably ?

Probably as a label for the community, I agree. But I wouldn't label the characters themselves as anarcho-capitalist, just because there is no suggestion in Atlas Shrugged that any of them opposed government in general. They were "anti-looter government", not anti-government.

I would call them libertarians, or classical liberals, myself, in the absence of any reason to think they, or Rand herself, opposed legitimate (classically liberal) government.

 

[alt]

Probably as a label for the community, I agree. But I wouldn't label the characters themselves as anarcho-capitalist, just because there is no suggestion in Atlas Shrugged that any of them opposed government in general. They were "anti-looter government", not anti-government.

I would call them libertarians, or classical liberals, myself, in the absence of any reason to think they, or Rand herself, opposed legitimate (classically liberal) government.

.. They were "anti-looter government", not anti-government ..

Ah! I didn't twig to that. That's the point I was missing. Thanks for the clear and succinct clarification.

 

[WhoWee]

.. They were "anti-looter government", not anti-government ..

Ah! I didn't twig to that. That's the point I was missing. Thanks for the clear and succinct clarification.

Anyone up for a case study? Community organizers and bank reform - what a mix:

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0511/54290.html

"Wall Street reform was supposed to reduce the massive risks taken by too-big-to-fail institutions such as Citigroup and Bank of America. And consumers were supposed to get protection from swindlers involved in predatory lending practices in the housing market.

The Dodd-Frank Act tackles these problems in the traditional way: It creates new bureaucracies and gives them huge budgets and broad powers to make new regulations. "

 

[zooxanthellae]

As someone (I think Ivan Seeking) pointed out earlier, the problems of democracy are in part because our base of human knowledge has gotten so incredibly huge/specialization is rampant. I'm reminded of something that a frustrated John von Neumann said at some point about the state of pure math (loosely paraphrased): "Right now it's impossible for anyone person to know more than about 1/4 of what's out there." And this was von Neumann, probably the guy who knew that 1/4! What hope does someone who works 8 hours a day have of being a truly informed voter?

This is why I think Ivan's strategy is a pretty decent one. Our best bet in this system is to elect people who seem sane and hard-working.

Yet I have to admit, in the face of events like today's Diamond withdrawal due to (IMO very stupid and childish) Republican opposition, I almost wish for the return of the philosopher-king...