Is dowsing a reliable technique for finding well sites?

[mouseonmoon]

Ivan

"downsing" and "divination"...isn't there a difference?

As a child i didn't know what was going on with the 'birch stick'- but 'felt it':
and with the "Spook Rods"-I was totally 'skeptical'...yet 'something happened', but it
could be 'related' to a 'natural event'-- don't 'understand it', but there could be 'physical/natural' 'reasons/explanations' for this--

whereas...'pendulums over a map' is something else!

 

[zoobyshoe]

Ivan

"downsing" and "divination"...isn't there a difference?

As a child i didn't know what was going on with the 'birch stick'- but 'felt it':
and with the "Spook Rods"-I was totally 'skeptical'...yet 'something happened', but it
could be 'related' to a 'natural event'-- don't 'understand it', but there could be 'physical/natural' 'reasons/explanations' for this--

whereas...'pendulums over a map' is something else!

I had the same question. The Wikipedia said that dowsing was a spinoff of a form of divination called rhabdomancy which means divination be means of rods. They don't have an actual entry for rhabdomancy but I think it may refer to the practice of throwing a bunch of small sticks into a special "circle" and divining the future from the pattern they form. I happened to read about this form of divination in National Geographic. It was still practised somewhere at the time. (1970s, I think, and somewhere in Africa).

So, technically, dowsing may be a subcategory of "divination by means of rods" but in actual practise, it seems to me to be a whole different phenomenon, with a different mechansm behind it. There is no interpretation of patterns, as with reading tea leaves. In dowsing, the rods move or they don't.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Yes, the defintions get a bit unclear. I tend to think that any forms of divination that might actually work must be part of common mechanism. For this reason I was using dowsing as an element of the entire set called divination...which I think is typical. However this might be completely inappropriate depending on what if anything actually works, and why.

btw, in Iran, when you finish a cup of Turkish style coffee, you can turn the cup upside down and a local reader will read your fortune from the coffee-sludge trails left in the cup.

 

[BoulderHead]

Here it is:

Crater of Diamonds State Park: State Parks:*Arkansas State Parks
Address:http://www.arkansasstateparks.com/parks/park.asp?id=22

Hey, I've been there!
(I unearthed diddly)

In dowsing, the rods move or they don't.

The rods moved for me and a couple of fellow experimenters. I can't explain it, but it happened and was most interesting. It is easy for anyone interested to make their own equipment and give it a try.

 

[zoobyshoe]

Hey, I've been there!
(I unearthed diddly)

I imagine the first three foot layer of the whole place has been pretty well picked over.

The rods moved for me and a couple of fellow experimenters. I can't explain it, but it happened and was most interesting. It is easy for anyone interested to make their own equipment and give it a try.

What were you dowsing for, and did you actually find any?

As far as trying this myself, I am hemmed in on all sides by a lot of neighbors who already think I'm peculiar. I would have to think of some remote place to go.

 

[BoulderHead]

I imagine the first three foot layer of the whole place has been pretty well picked over.

Haha, that’s what killed me then.

What were you dowsing for, and did you actually find any?

At first only a length of string then later a coin. It was just an introductory test to see if I could do it and my interest was in watching for any peculiar movements of the rods, not in actually finding something hidden.

As far as trying this myself, I am hemmed in on all sides by a lot of neighbors who already think I'm peculiar. I would have to think of some remote place to go.

You can do it indoors where nobody can watch. Here’s what I did; find a spare coat hanger and straighten it out (cutting off problem areas). Cut it into two equal lengths and bend each piece to form a handle (like the capital letter L). If it looks like the pieces will be too short try using two hangers instead of one. Now, what I did next was to cut two short pieces of ¼” copper tubing to insert the short ends of the rods into. This gives you something to hold on to while insuring the rods can swing freely. Next, lay a length of string across the floor a few feet in front of you. Hold you forearms parallel to the floor while the rods in your hands point straight forward (also parallel to the floor). Try your best to not move your wrists or arms in the least amount as you concentrate on the string in front of you. Walk slowly forward and visualize the rods moving inward and crossing each other at the point of crossing the string.

There, that’s it. It took me about a half-dozen attempts before meeting with success (less than 5-minutes). Three friends came over and laughed at my foolishness, haha, but they each agreed to try. One took several attempts and then rods moved together but not too convincingly. The second friend hit it on his second or third try and the movement was dramatic. He was clearly and profoundly amazed by what had just happened. He did it successfully several more times before the third individual had his turn. Unfortunately he met without success (so we all teased him about being a loser, haha). It’s funny that despite the success none of us bothered to pursue the matter beyond a few more days. I found that it took too much time to hunt for hidden coins in the yard and lost interest. Still, if anyone decides to invest an hour or so of spare time to try this little experiment and should meet with success then the next step is to have a friend hide the string under a rug, or close your eyes while it is laid across a spot on the floor. Have the friend tell you when to stop walking when the rods cross the string, then open your eyes. I can tell you that I opened my eyes to discover the rods had indeed crossed, and the person telling my when to stop was much impressed. Next take a slow step backwards and see for yourself if the rods uncross.

I tried my very best to allow no movement of my body that could force the rods to cross, and no movement could be detected in the arms/hands of my friends.

 

[Janitor]

A-way back when-

Grandpa gave my sister an old Ouija board. When enough neighborhood kids had their hands on it, it moved.

 

[BoulderHead]

Haha, yes, I tried that too but someone was caught intentionally forcing a movement.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

But here is the kicker Boulderhead [gosh its great to have you back ] high speed video indicates that of those tested, the muscles in the dowser's arms react before the dowsing rod. This would seem to imply that the dowser is causing the action, but without meaning to do so. For this reason, and since I think it can be done, at least by some people, in some circumstances, I assume that they must be reacting through some unrecognized mechanism. I have suspected that this may be related to some primitive instinct for finding water...as a guess. Perhaps the rods only act as motion amplifiers for our subtle reactons?

 

[BoulderHead]

But here is the kicker Boulderhead

Always that kicker, hehe.

[gosh its great to have you back ]

Thanks, it’s feeling more normal all the time!

…high speed video indicates that of those tested, the muscles in the dowser's arms react before the dowsing rod. This would seem to imply that the dowser is causing the action, but without meaning to do so.

I has a suspicion and that’s why I would repeat to myself a little chant about “I will not move my arms, I will not move my hands..”. I can honestly say that I was not aware of any movement, nor could we as observers see any movement.

For this reason, and since I think it can be done, at least by some people, in some circumstances, I assume that they must be reacting through some unrecognized mechanism. I have suspected that this may be related to some primitive instinct for finding water...as a guess. Perhaps the rods only act as motion amplifiers for our subtle reactons?

I really don’t claim to understand it but know that even if it were a complete self-hoax it nevertheless will get your attention. We had about a 75% success rate within just minutes. Making the rods took longer than being able to see them in action. If it were good for nothing else it would still make for an interesting party game.

[edit]
I could write it all off as my subconscious tricking me to move the rods, especially since the string was in plain view to begin with. Later on when I felt comfortable that it was working it was, however not in plain view (my eyes closed) and yet the rods were crossed. Now, I could write this off as my causing the rods to cross when I was told to stop walking except the person telling me to stop was watching them cross while my eyes were still closed as the rods passed over the string. Go figure.

 

[zoobyshoe]

This reminds me.

Ivan, have you ever tried the "psychokinetic" thing where you make the little piece of paper spin on the point of a needle?

You stand a needle upright by sticking it into a blob of clay or something, then you cut a 1 inch or less square of paper and fold it twice at right angles so there is a kind of center pivot point. You balance the paper on the point of the needle by placing that center of the two folds (center of gravity) on the point of the needle. Then you hold one hand on either side of the setup, kind of cupping your palms around it, but not touching one hand to the other or to the set up. You can rest your hands on the table. Then you "will" the paper to turn in a specific direction.

I read about this in a book of "fun things to do" and was surprised to find it works. I suspect it works by eletrostatic or thermal differences between the two hands. The "kicker" is that you are able to control the direction of rotation.

I tried putting a jar over the setup and when I did it no longer worked.

 

[zoobyshoe]

You can do it indoors where nobody can watch.

Thanks for the info and the instructions. I think, however, I will not waste my time on string. I want to train my rods to have a taste for diamonds and gold. Don't have any laying around, just now, to practise on, though.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

I'm still dowsing for Jimmy Hoffa.

I will definitely try the paper trick. That is amazing! Are you sure about this...you're not pulling my leg are you? I see no way that we could control the direction.

 

[zoobyshoe]

I'm still dowsing for Jimmy Hoffa.

I'm sure there's a book deal in it if you find him.

I will definitely try the paper trick. That is amazing! Are you sure about this...you're not pulling my leg are you? I see no way that we could control the direction.

Not pulling your leg.

My guess is that a person can alter the relative temperature of their hands by concentrating more on one hand than the other, or, somewhat less explicably, control the relative charge. As I mentioned human hands are prone to be quite positively charged.

I was able to make it turn in the direction I wanted, to stop, and to change direction. I was alone at the time, however, with no witnesses. Hope I wasn't hallucinating.

 

[quddusaliquddus]

Maybe it was your breath that turned it ... a classic magic trick ... maybe?

 

[zoobyshoe]

Maybe it was your breath that turned it ... a classic magic trick ... maybe?

This is a good possibility since it didn't work at all when I put a jar over it. The person doing it may unconsciously adjust the direction of their exhalations to make it turn and to control the direction. I suppose the test would be to wear a shield over the face, or set up a pane of glass between the face and hands and see if it still works.

 

[leto]

I tried it because I didn't believe it. I held my breath, and while I was able to make it move for no apparent reason, I couldn't really control the direction of the movement. I don't doubt it would be possible with practice.

Edit: I seem to only be able to make it spin to the right or stop. It's always fun to think you know what is and isn't possible and be proven totally wrong. It makes the world more fun.

 

[zoobyshoe]

I tried it because I didn't believe it. I held my breath, and while I was able to make it move for no apparent reason, I couldn't really control the direction of the movement. I don't doubt it would be possible with practice.

I think it would be too hard to concentrate while holding your breath. Better to try a dust mask or piece of cloth around your mouth and nose to eliminate breathing directly on the thing.

I haven't tried it recently, but as I recall the way I got it to change direction was by concentrating on the other hand. It could be that it will turn in any direction it is started in due to whatever difference in temperature exists between the two hands, and that the impetus in one direction or the other is unconsciously given by subtly directing the breath.

What ever is moving it is a really tiny force, in any event, since there's very little friction in the "bearing". Whatever friction is present has to be mostly air friction.

 

[leto]

It will move for me using just one hand, and the shape of my hand seems to greatly effect it. Maybe it is my pulse? I dunno, I've noticed it also works better with my dominant hand.

 

[zoobyshoe]

It will move for me using just one hand, and the shape of my hand seems to greatly effect it. Maybe it is my pulse? I dunno, I've noticed it also works better with my dominant hand.

Good idea. I didn't even think to try just one hand. That points to it being a simple thermal effect, especially since the shape of your hand makes a difference; the way it guides the rising warm air, I'm thinking.

I wonder if anyone else has tried it?

 

[Gokul43201]

To all the diviners/dowsers (I'm not sure what the right terminology is) :

There's something called the Beale Treasure - a supposedly mammoth treasure hidden in Virginia. The names of owners, location and description of the treasure was written by this Beale guy in a secret cipher. The owner and description parts of the cipher have been cracked but not the location part of it. Expert crytanalysts have spent thousands of hours in vain. The rough location of the treasure is known though, an area of a few square miles, near a town called Bufords, I think.

Perhaps a diviner should walk about and give it a try.

Look up Beale treasure, Beale letters or Beale Cryptogram for more info.

 

[BoulderHead]

Kewl, I'll get my coat hangers out of the closet, and head on over.

Zooby,
I tried the needle and paper experiment. It was spinning around like a top (several complete revolutions) at first, but the more I worked with it the less success I had. I couldn't control direction, but I'll try it again later.

 

[zoobyshoe]

Kewl, I'll get my coat hangers out of the closet, and head on over.

I'm wondering if the rules contain any stipulations that the treasure must be found by solving the code, and if finding it by dowsing would disqualify a person?

Zooby,
I tried the needle and paper experiment. It was spinning around like a top (several complete revolutions) at first, but the more I worked with it the less success I had. I couldn't control direction, but I'll try it again later.

I think the same thing happened to me, where the effect was very strong at first and then got weaker the longer I tried it.

Anyway, I'm glad other people are able to do it. I guess I wasn't hallucinating.

 

[zoobyshoe]

Well, I just tried it again for the first time in 15 years and had the same results as everyone else. I can't make it change direction.

It seems to take some time to "warm up" as it were, and it didn't start rotating for a good half a minute. Once it got started I wasn't able to "will" it to stop as I remember having done before.

Then, after a few minutes of it, it seems to "wear out" and not want to work anymore.

This time it seemed like there was a chimney effect at work. It seems that your hands warm the air in between them which rises and the air coming in through the spaces between your hands to replace the rising air is what it turning the paper. I managed to do it with one hand, but it was necessary to curl the hand around it more closely to make it work, and it didn't work as well as with two hands.

I'm thinking the reason it stops working is that after you've held your hands like that for a few minutes they tense up and the circulation isn't as good: they don't heat the air as well.

 

[Gokul43201]

I'm wondering if the rules contain any stipulations that the treasure must be found by solving the code, and if finding it by dowsing would disqualify a person?

There are no rules. Finders keepers. Until the IRS comes knocking...

 

[(Q)]

Dowsing is no better than any game of chance. Anyone has just a good chance at finding water as Dowsers. Simply drill a hole anywhere that water is geologically possible, and you will find it. No divination necessary.

As an aside, when Randi tested the claims of dowsers, the dowsers all agreed upon the protocols of the test - all of them failed.

 

[Arctic Fox]

But I don't just look for water, although true, finding water is quite easy - just drill into the ground, eventuall you will find some no matter where you drill.

But, try finding burried electrical lines, pipes, gold, dead animals in the forest, old mining camps... try looking for something that could be just about anywhere - a dowser will find it first (if they're genuine).

As for the missing treasure, it's a catch22 - if the treasure isn't found, the dowser/psychic is labled a fraud. Remember that nearly all hidden treasures are based on stories and myths. I once spent 3 weeks in the deserts of Arizona looking for 3 bars of gold that someone swore was out there. Stupid old man - I didn't know it at the time, but his 'story' of the gold bars was a story told since the early 1800s - if it was ever true, someone already found them because it sure isn't out there anymore.

There is no other force acting on the dowsing rods other than he one using them. It's just an extention of an already possible ability - just requires concentration. If someone cannot thing clearly, or is 'scatter-brained' (as my friend calls it) then it won't work. If you're stressed, sick, et cetera, this applies also.


Ivan, did you get my PM?

 

[(Q)]

But, try finding burried electrical lines, pipes, gold, dead animals in the forest, old mining camps... try looking for something that could be just about anywhere - a dowser will find it first (if they're genuine).

But of course, a "genuine" dowser has never been found. And as I said above, anyone has as good a chance at finding something as a "dowser."

There is no other force acting on the dowsing rods other than he one using them.

That being the force of their grip around a stick.

It's just an extention of an already possible ability - just requires concentration.

Actually, grasping a stick requires very little concentration or ability.

Get a grip.

 

[BoulderHead]

But of course, a "genuine" dowser has never been found. And as I said above, anyone has as good a chance at finding something as a "dowser."

Are you confident you could find that string I spoke about on the previous page?

 

[Arctic Fox]

(Q) just wants to fight.

 

[BoulderHead]

The reason I asked that question is because out of four individuals attempting to browse for the string, one quite apparently could not do it. That gives some reason to think that "...any one has as good a chance at finding something as a "dowser."" may not represent the truth.

 

[Arctic Fox]

And I completely agree.

My coworker just could not find underground water pipes... but ask him to locate a tree root and he'd get it every time! :D

 

[zoobyshoe]

I once spent 3 weeks in the deserts of Arizona looking for 3 bars of gold that someone swore was out there. Stupid old man - I didn't know it at the time, but his 'story' of the gold bars was a story told since the early 1800s - if it was ever true, someone already found them because it sure isn't out there anymore.

This wasn't "The Lost Dutchman's Mine" you were looking for, was it?

 

[(Q)]

Are you confident you could find that string I spoke about on the previous page?

It's not a matter of confidence, it's a matter of chance. That would be like asking if I was confident I'd roll double sixes with dice.

The reason I asked that question is because out of four individuals attempting to browse for the string, one quite apparently could not do it.

So, are you saying that individual did not have the capacity to hold a stick in his hand, wave it around in the air and pretend the stick was pointing at something?

(Q) just wants to fight.

Not really, I just wanted to point out that divination is a load of crap and that 'dowsers' have no more special abilities at finding things than anyone else.

 

[kcballer21]

Seems like (Q) is the victor in this debate. I'm still waiting for some legitimate peer reviewed scientific evidence to back the claims of 'dowsers', as far as I know James Randi is the only man willing to do what it takes to find the truth about such subjects. And as (Q) mentioned, all participants agree to the conditions of the million dollar test and still no one has won the money. I'm curious to know what some of you think about psychics that speak to the dead, and that is not a jab because some of you have offered some very interesting theories on possible scientific explanations for dowsing. I guess the bottom line is does it hold up against double-blind testing.