Is Evolution True? | Benzun's Perspective

[Chemicalsuperfreak]

Originally posted by thunderfvck



And for me, creationism basically is the anti-evolutionary science. We may not perform rigorous experiments, or study things as intently as you do.

As far as I can tell, the only rigourous experiments creationists do is make really phony fake plaster fossils, cut and past debunked arguments, quote scripture, and make themselves look dumb.


If you're going to defend creationism at least do it from a religious perspective, because scientifically there is no leg to stand on.

And don't give me that "it's not about religion" garbage. Creationism is almost exclusively confined to a few american fundamentalist nutjobs who believe in a literal interpretation of the bible and will resort to breaking the commandment about false witness in order to defend they're five thousand year old myth.

 

[nautica]

Very well said Superfreak. If only I could be so elegant in my response.

Nautica

 

[russ_watters]

Originally posted by agnostictheist
Russ, I don't think that all mirco-evolutionist (creationists) hold that all creatures were created at the same time, to these people all it means is that God created one species then anther etc, and most reject the notion that one species changes into anther. rather God created them in turn.

That does not fit with the way the Bible describes it though.

the flaw in simultanious creation is extinsion?

Monique, if God created all species at the same time (presumably 4 billion years ago or so, since that's as far back as fossil records go) then the fact that extinctions occur should mean there are far less species than there used to be.

It also should show in the fossil record that all species we see today existed back then.

For young Earth creationists (YECs), the position is essentially that God has tricked us into thinking that evolution (and a lot of other scientific theories) is true by creating the universe 6000 years ago and making it look like we evolved over 4 billion years. I personally like the "decietful God" belief though - it contradicts other religious teachings.

 

[Bernardo]

And so our nice thread on this topic has disintegrated like all the others before it. Nothing learned - nothing changed.

Differing thoughts cannot coexist - even here in the 'intellectual' world of philosophy and debate. It always seems to boil down to shots against the person. Making someone seem stupid so your point can be made. All I read the last few pages is shot after shot after shot.

You people are master students and engineers and know more about molecular matters that I ever will, and yet a discussion still ends up as base as any locker room.

I thought I could learn from all these different ideas - all I've seen is more of the same. That's too bad 'cuz this thread is fast reaching its end.

I believe "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth." Gen 1:1. I don't know how, I don't know when. My faith is more concerned with knowing why.

Your right - leave science out of religion and religion out of science - I mean why try a new idea anyway.

 

[nautica]

Originally posted by Bernardo
And so our nice thread on this topic has disintegrated like all the others before it. Nothing learned - nothing changed.

Differing thoughts cannot coexist - even here in the 'intellectual' world of philosophy and debate. It always seems to boil down to shots against the person. Making someone seem stupid so your point can be made. All I read the last few pages is shot after shot after shot.

You people are master students and engineers and know more about molecular matters that I ever will, and yet a discussion still ends up as base as any locker room.

I thought I could learn from all these different ideas - all I've seen is more of the same. That's too bad 'cuz this thread is fast reaching its end.

I believe "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth." Gen 1:1. I don't know how, I don't know when. My faith is more concerned with knowing why.

Your right - leave science out of religion and religion out of science - I mean why try a new idea anyway.

Finally, someone who can admit that their belief in creation is based on faith.

Nautica

 

[russ_watters]

Originally posted by Bernardo
I believe "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth." Gen 1:1. I don't know how, I don't know when. My faith is more concerned with knowing why.

I'm a Christian, but all of those unknowns are not acceptable to me. Human curiosity.

 

[Bernardo]

I never said that unknowns were acceptable.

I don't believe in religious ignorance.

I do believe that God placed rules laws in place that we call science.

Yes, creation by faith, I claim it completely. But I want to find out as much about the creation as possible. What could possibly be wrong with that.

 

[russ_watters]

Originally posted by Bernardo
Yes, creation by faith, I claim it completely. But I want to find out as much about the creation as possible. What could possibly be wrong with that.

It just appears to me that you are putting constraints on your curiosity.

 

[nautica]

Originally posted by Bernardo
I never said that unknowns were acceptable.

I don't believe in religious ignorance.

I do believe that God placed rules laws in place that we call science.

Yes, creation by faith, I claim it completely. But I want to find out as much about the creation as possible. What could possibly be wrong with that.

So could God not have created 1 and then evolution occurred. Or are you a true fundelmentatlist that believes the Earth was created 6000 ya.

Nautica

 

[Mentat]

Originally posted by russ_watters
That does not fit with the way the Bible describes it though.

I'm trying to be careful not to let this get to religious because of me, but it is, in fact, possible to create an interpretation of the physical evidence that fits the Biblical account. You simply have to assume that the "days" of creation (which, btw, is a more restricted translation of a much looser term in the Hebrew...the word translated "day" could mean any defined period of time) were very long.

Monique, if God created all species at the same time (presumably 4 billion years ago or so, since that's as far back as fossil records go) then the fact that extinctions occur should mean there are far less species than there used to be.

Again, the Bible doesn't say that all things were created at the same time. Let's imagine that everything progressed the way that the physical evidence suggest it did, but there also happens to be a God watching all of this occur...this God then gives a vision of the occurance to a Jewish man, raised in ancient Egypt...isn't the vision going to be very simplified and general, for the purpose of not confusing the man (Moses)?

Just a thought.

 

[Mentat]

Originally posted by agnostictheist
"I've done the calculation before myself...it does indeed appear that Adam was born/created in 4026 BCE (see All Scripture is Inspired of God and beneficial, published by Jehovah's Witnesses if you want to see exactly what proofs there are for this), and this would put man at about 6000 years (the site said 6175, so I'll go with that) old. Well, that could easily refer just to Cromagnon man, so there needn't be any dispute there with evolutionary theories, right?"

has FZ stated cro-magnon man is bones go futher back than this... say for a rought ball point figure...30,000

But what seems to have not been picked up is that cro-magnon man while is essentianlly physically identical to modern "man" with the minor exception of slight bigger bone size, cro-magnon is not really a "species", nor really found in the proper scienfic papers, its more of a pop-grouping for seprating them from neaderthals.


I think around 9,000 - 6,000?(dont qoute me on this date) yes cro-mangon man was supplanted (around places like Italy, fantastic place, being italain and all) and replaced with a closer looking modern human, but that's NOT saying there is really any difference between cro-mangon and us.

Many thanks. This will be of use to me, since I have many friends who are (unfortunately) creationists.

 

[nautica]

I still do Not see where God has anything to do with evolution. Creationist believe that evolution is false b/c God was the creator.

Based on evidence, we know evolution exist, but we will never prove one way or the other wether there is or is not a God, well maybe someday.

This is why I have such a problem with creationist using science to disprove evolution. They use the bible as a scientific document and then manipulate the evidence in order to fit this version.

Why not use the evidence and create a theory instead of using a story (the bible) and then go looking for evidence. It is just so backwards and has no place in the discussion of evolution.

Just for once I would love to here a creationist say. I have looked at the evidence and it appears that evolution exist, but my faith tells me I must believe that the Earth is only 6000 you and that God created each spp individually so that is what I believe. End of story.

Nautica

 

[Mentat]

Originally posted by nautica
I still do Not see where God has anything to do with evolution. Creationist believe that evolution is false b/c God was the creator.

Creationists are wrong.

Based on evidence, we know evolution exist, but we will never prove one way or the other wether there is or is not a God, well maybe someday.

Actually, God is the answer to many "why" questions, but science is incapable of asking those questions, by its very nature, and will thus never answer the question of whether God exists or not. However, if one chooses to accept that God exists, it can only be hoped that that person will not accept a vision of God that contradicts known science.

This is why I have such a problem with creationist using science to disprove evolution. They use the bible as a scientific document and then manipulate the evidence in order to fit this version.

Why not use the evidence and create a theory instead of using a story (the bible) and then go looking for evidence. It is just so backwards and has no place in the discussion of evolution.

Just for once I would love to here a creationist say. I have looked at the evidence and it appears that evolution exist, but my faith tells me I must believe that the Earth is only 6000 you and that God created each spp individually so that is what I believe. End of story.

You are probably right, with regard to creationists. However, the word isn't "faith", it's "credulity". Faith is an assured expectation of things hoped for, based on testing and trial (it comes from the Greek "elegkhos", which is at the heart of the Scientific Method itself). Credulity, OTOH, is accepting something blindly, or inspite of the evidence.

 

[russ_watters]

Originally posted by Mentat
I'm trying to be careful not to let this get to religious because of me, but it is, in fact, possible to create an interpretation of the physical evidence that fits the Biblical account. You simply have to assume that the "days" of creation (which, btw, is a more restricted translation of a much looser term in the Hebrew...the word translated "day" could mean any defined period of time) were very long.

One problem though: on the seventh day he rested. Ie, his creation was finished. Clearly it is not.

Faith is an assured expectation of things hoped for, based on testing and trial (it comes from the Greek "elegkhos", which is at the heart of the Scientific Method itself).

Whoa now - entemology aside (I can't verify it, though it says it comes from LATIN - fides), that isn't what "faith" means. In fact, it is precisely backwards. Faith is belif in the absence of evidence. The relevant definition from dictionary.com is:

Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence.

 

[thunderfvck]

hey, long time no see.
sorry about not responding, i had computer problems.
it's not like it really matters anyways because I'm giving up on this argument. i forget who posted whatever it was that inspired me to shut up, but thank you. holding up this argument is killing me. i feel raped. so I'm throwing in the towel and shaking hands with nobody except nautica and the girl (im sorry I've forgot your name but i do remember you being a quite attractive biologist in amsterdamn, or maybe you were a chemist, anywya...) who have done nothing but tried to prove me wrong. it was an honor.

 

[agnostictheist]

thunderfvck

we all due respect, you come across has if you seem to have been correct, or that ones aim was tp prove you wrong... your wrong on both accounts.

 

[Mentat]

Originally posted by russ_watters
One problem though: on the seventh day he rested. Ie, his creation was finished. Clearly it is not.

That's not taking into account the Hebrew word "ruach", which is the one that is usually used for direct creation/invention. He has ceased inventing new "kinds" for the time being...if one wished to make such a unification, that is. Besides, "ruach" was rarely used, except in connection with what He is "resting" from...alot of the "creative days" use the term "asah'" which refers to a gradual "bringing about".

Whoa now - entemology aside (I can't verify it, though it says it comes from LATIN - fides), that isn't what "faith" means. In fact, it is precisely backwards. Faith is belif in the absence of evidence.

That is the common usage of it, but the apostle Paul was one who actually had faith...one assumes he'd know what it was. Credulity would not need to be a word at all, if your definition of "faith" was correct.

 

[russ_watters]

Originally posted by Mentat
That is the common usage of it, but the apostle Paul was one who actually had faith...one assumes he'd know what it was. Credulity would not need to be a word at all, if your definition of "faith" was correct.

I'm not sure what you mean. What does Paul say about faith and what does the word "credulity" have to do with anything?

 

[selfAdjoint]

He means that your definition of faith is actually a definition of credulity, willingness to beliee what one is told without evidence. Christian faith, at least has evidence, although being interior, it is "not seen".

 

[russ_watters]

credulity: A disposition to believe too readily. (aka, gullibility).

While I do believe that gullible people are more likely to take things on faith, credulity and faith are not the same thing.

Christian faith, at least has evidence, although being interior, it is "not seen".

The fundamental points of the religion are strictly faith based. What evidence could there be to prove Jesus was the son of God? (for example).

 

[Mentat]

Originally posted by russ_watters
I'm not sure what you mean. What does Paul say about faith and what does the word "credulity" have to do with anything?

Paul was the one who gave the definition I posted before: "Faith is the assured expectation of things hoped for, the evident demonstration of realities though not beheld." - Hebrews 11:1 NWT

I only mentioned credulity because it seemed you were equating the two (faith and credulity).

 

[Mentat]

Originally posted by russ_watters
credulity: A disposition to believe too readily. (aka, gullibility).

While I do believe that gullible people are more likely to take things on faith, credulity and faith are not the same thing.

So, what is the difference between accepting something on faith and accepting it on credulity, in your opinion?

The fundamental points of the religion are strictly faith based. What evidence could there be to prove Jesus was the son of God? (for example).

The same amount of "proof" (not a very good word, under the circumstances, since nothing is ever really "proven" anyway) that assures us that the Jews were ever enslaved in Egypt, or that Columbus ever sailed across the ocean...written documents, three of which were by eye-witnesses (or, professed eye-witnesses anyway) and one was by a physician who had compiled information for some time after Jesus' death.

This point is really irrelevant though, since, if Paul's definition of faith holds true, then any strongly-supported theory is taken on "faith" ("evident demonstration" coming from the word "elegkhos" (as I mentioned before) which indicates testing or [/u]arguing[/u] to produce "proof"), while certainly not on blind belief or credulity.

 

[russ_watters]

Originally posted by Mentat
So, what is the difference between accepting something on faith and accepting it on credulity, in your opinion?

Maybe I'm misusing the word, but the way I'm reading it is that credulity is the mental state that allows you to have faith. You don't accept an idea on credulity, you accept it because of credulity. Subtle, but there really is a difference.

The same amount of "proof" (not a very good word, under the circumstances, since nothing is ever really "proven" anyway) that assures us that the Jews were ever enslaved in Egypt, or that Columbus ever sailed across the ocean...written documents, three of which were by eye-witnesses (or, professed eye-witnesses anyway) and one was by a physician who had compiled information for some time after Jesus' death.

Proof is the right word - in this context, "proof" is synonomous with "evidence." There is a difference between "proof" and "proven" - very commonly overlooked though.

In any case, that's a false analogy because first, it assumes equal credibility for the sources of each, which clearly can't be assumed.

Second, the point of contention isn't that Jesus was a real person, but rather that he was the son of God. AFAIK, most historians do accept that Jesus was a real person - but that he was the son of God is not something that documents can provide evidence for.

Paul was the one who gave the definition I posted before: "Faith is the assured expectation of things hoped for, the evident demonstration of realities though not beheld."

So how is this different from the definition I posted? Thats just another way of saying belief without evidence ("realities" is the evidence, "not beheld" means you haven't seen it). And that is decidedly different from what you posted before: "assured expectation of things hoped for, based on testing and trial". Everything after the coma you changed to be the exact opposite of what Paul said!

I only mentioned credulity because it seemed you were equating the two (faith and credulity).

That still confuses me since I never used the word "credulity" until you brought it up. Like I said before, they are unrelated words. [edit: ok, you used the word in that first post where you suggested it as an alternative to "faith." Frankly, I didn't even see it. I wasn't saying anything at all about the definition of "credulity" - though I am now]

This point is really irrelevant though, since, if Paul's definition of faith holds true, then any strongly-supported theory is taken on "faith" ("evident demonstration" coming from the word "elegkhos" (as I mentioned before) which indicates testing or [/u]arguing[/u] to produce "proof"), while certainly not on blind belief or credulity.

I'm not sure if you are doing this on purpose or not, but it appears to me you are misrepresenting the words and their definitions. You misquoted Paul, put a word in my mouth I didn't use, and are attaching an definition from the entemology (that isn't in the dictionary I saw) for the purpose of changing the definition of the word.

Look, whether the definition has changed and been refined through history really isn't the point (though it appears to me it has not anyway). Under the current accepted definition, faith is belief without evidence. It just seems to me you don't like that definition and the associated stigma, so you are trying to suggest a substitute word and and definition.

 

[nautica]

Well, at least this did'nt turn into a religous thread.

Nautica

 

[russ_watters]

Originally posted by nautica
Well, at least this did'nt turn into a religous thread.

Nautica

Sorry I let myself get sucked into that and hijack the thread. Its a pet peve of mine.

 

[Mentat]

Originally posted by russ_watters
Proof is the right word - in this context, "proof" is synonomous with "evidence." There is a difference between "proof" and "proven" - very commonly overlooked though.

In any case, that's a false analogy because first, it assumes equal credibility for the sources of each, which clearly can't be assumed.

Equal credibility between which sources?

Second, the point of contention isn't that Jesus was a real person, but rather that he was the son of God. AFAIK, most historians do accept that Jesus was a real person - but that he was the son of God is not something that documents can provide evidence for.

Except when you consider the numerous prophecies (written by very different people, at very different times) that all pointed to the same person being born and baptized on the exact years that Jesus was born and baptized.

So how is this different from the definition I posted? Thats just another way of saying belief without evidence ("realities" is the evidence, "not beheld" means you haven't seen it). And that is decidedly different from what you posted before: "assured expectation of things hoped for, based on testing and trial".

Actually, I was working off a knowledge of the ancient Greek. The word for "evident demonstration" was elegkhos, which is exactly what would be used to say "experimentation" if science had existed then - and that same word was used for "trial" or "testing out".

That still confuses me since I never used the word "credulity" until you brought it up. Like I said before, they are unrelated words. [edit: ok, you used the word in that first post where you suggested it as an alternative to "faith." Frankly, I didn't even see it. I wasn't saying anything at all about the definition of "credulity" - though I am now] I'm not sure if you are doing this on purpose or not, but it appears to me you are misrepresenting the words and their definitions. You misquoted Paul, put a word in my mouth I didn't use, and are attaching an definition from the entemology (that isn't in the dictionary I saw) for the purpose of changing the definition of the word.

Not "changing" the definition, providing insight into the Greek word used...remember, please, that Paul never spoke English. In fact, it didn't exist then. He spoke the Greek, and used the Greek word elegkhos where he could have easily used some other word to denote blind faith.

Look, whether the definition has changed and been refined through history really isn't the point (though it appears to me it has not anyway). Under the current accepted definition, faith is belief without evidence. It just seems to me you don't like that definition and the associated stigma, so you are trying to suggest a substitute word and and definition.

Actually, I was presenting a reason to believe that that particular dictionary's definition was incorrect. The American Heritage dictionary gives a similar definition, but provides reference to its Appendix, wherein it is explained that the probable root of the word "faith" is in words that denoted both confidence and persuasion. "Persuasion", by that same dictionary, usually involves argument and reasoning.

Anyway, you may (of course) respond to all of this, and I would like to continue discussing it (perhaps by PM?), but will not respond on the religious side-track of this thread anymore - mostly my own fault, and I apologize for that - (it'll probably be locked anyway).

 

[selfAdjoint]

Except when you consider the numerous prophecies (written by very different people, at very different times) that all pointed to the same person being born and baptized on the exact years that Jesus was born and baptized.

If there are these "numerous" prophecies, you surely won't mind giving the text of three of them, with the "exact years" highlighted so we can all learn what year Jesus was born. Because this is something that is unkown to scholars, students, and theologians. But since all these different people at different times knew exactly when it was going to be and they all agree with each other, then we can just use their date.

 

[Nereid]

Originally posted by thunderfvck
ANd again.

Achaeopteryx was a fraud.
Did you know that?
http://www.chebucto.ns.ca/Environment/NHR/archaeopteryx.html

Note that this is the original archaeopteryx in the British Museum. Scientists replied:

SO, in perspective, some dudes decided to look at the archaeo and noticed there was something fishy about it. Tell me, people who are familiar with bones can often spot a fake fairly easily, why would they be wrong? They have experience, they've seen fossils before. I might be wrong here but it's worth mentioning.

ISn't this archaeo thing a fill in for the gap between reptiles and birds? Or is there some other explanation, besides archeao, that explain the evolution, I'd be interested.

If thunderfvck is still around ...
1) there's a awful lot more to the 'archaeo' story than is in the website (dated 1992) that you posted. "Bones of Contention" (Paul Chambers) is one book among several that discusses the 'forgery' claim, and other archaeo controversies. The BM's specimen is not a forgery.
2) there are quite a few archaeo specimens, including some found in the past decade. At least two have well preserved feather impressions; all are consistent with the BM's specimen.
3) so, yes, you are wrong here (about the forgery).
4) the dinosaur-reptile-bird story, and archaeo's role in it, is fascinating. Many key questions remain; much active research is going on; the peer-reviewed papers are there for you to read and critique. If you'd like, we could start a new thread here in Biology to discuss this.

 

[Mentat]

Originally posted by selfAdjoint
If there are these "numerous" prophecies, you surely won't mind giving the text of three of them, with the "exact years" highlighted so we can all learn what year Jesus was born. Because this is something that is unkown to scholars, students, and theologians. But since all these different people at different times knew exactly when it was going to be and they all agree with each other, then we can just use their date.

I over-stepped in saying there were "numerous" ones, as there is actually only one that points to the exact date, while there are many that point to events that would happen in his life-time. PM me for the one prophecy, if you wish to know, but, as I said, I don't think I should continue the religious side-track that I, unfortunately, started.

 

[Nereid]

Maybe this question will get this post locked ...

As I've learned, there are groups of christians (Christians?) who cannot accept the scientific work done on evolution - 'creationists' they seem to call themselves.

Are there similar groups within other major world religions, e.g. Judaism, Buddhism, Islam, Hinduism?

When Darwin's "Origin of Species" was published, what was the reaction of religious leaders among Hindus, Buddhists, etc?

 

[russ_watters]

Jews and Muslims read pretty much the same Old Testament as Christians, so the same creation story applies. Dunno about the two other major world religions though.

 

[Chemicalsuperfreak]

Originally posted by Nereid
Maybe this question will get this post locked ...

As I've learned, there are groups of christians (Christians?) who cannot accept the scientific work done on evolution - 'creationists' they seem to call themselves.

Are there similar groups within other major world religions, e.g. Judaism, Buddhism, Islam, Hinduism?

When Darwin's "Origin of Species" was published, what was the reaction of religious leaders among Hindus, Buddhists, etc?

The creationist movement is, except for a few fundamentalist muslim places like afghanistan, almost completely isolated to a few groups of american protestants who believe in the literal interpretation of the Bible. At least the parts that they like. There are a few wackos in western europe that have caught on, but there numbers are quite small compared to the US, where they are quite organized and in numerous instances have taken control of school boards in order to spread their ignorance. Can't remember the numbers but I think the majority, maybe plurality, of americans still believe that God created man in his present day form several thousand years ago. I think it was an AAAS poll.

This isn't to say that christianity is responsible. Most christians don't believe in creation, I think. The Vatican, for instance, has come out in favor of evolution. Albeit by divine hand.

Jews, I believe, are not typically biblical literalists, although ultra orthodox jews may believe in creation.

 

[Nereid]

Summary

This thread is now 21 pages long, and has >240 posts.

The answer to bunzun_1999's question (is evolution true?) seems to be:
+ YES, if evolution is defined as a change in allele frequencies with time (the dodo is extinct; its allele frequencies have changed)
+ YES, if evolution is defined in any way that allows the emergence of antibiotic resistance bacteria to be regarded as evolution
+ not answered*, if evolution is defined as incontrovertable speciations among multi-cellular organisms in the last ~200 years.

For some posters on this thread the real question isn't evolution, but the origin of life (or the universe), which is out of scope for this thread.

Other posters who feel that 'evolution is not true' seem to have not defined what they mean by evolution, so we have been unable to assess whether their feelings are consistent with observation or logic.

*Since the definition of 'species' is somewhat elastic, even for multi-cellular organisms, this may be unanswerable. However, IIRC, there was an experiment which produced a new species of fruit fly, in the sense that inter-breeding was no longer possible ('biological speciation'). And the peppered moth observations are the archetypical evidence of morphological speciation.

Comments?

[edits: typos corrected]

 

[nautica]

Originally posted by Nereid
This thread is now 21 pages long, and has >240 posts.

The answer to bunzun_1999's question (is evolution true?) seems to be:
+ YES, if evolution is defined as a change in allele frequencies with time (the dodo is extinct; it's allele frequencies have changed)
+ YES, if evolution is defined in any way that allows the emergence of antibiotic resistance bacteria to be regarded as evolution
+ not answered*, if evolution is defined as incontrovertable speciations among multi-cellular organisms in the last ~200 years.

For some posters o nthis thread the real question isn't evolution, but the origin of life (or the universe), which is out of scope for this thread.

Other posters who feel that 'evolution is not true' seem to have not defined what they mean by evolution, so we have been unable to assess whether their feelings are consistent with observation or logic.

*Since the definition of 'species' is somewhat elastic, even for multi-cellular organisms, this may be unanswerable. However, IIRC, there was an experiment which produced a new species of fruit fly, in the sense that inter-breeding was no longer possible ('biological speciation'). And the peppered moth observations are the archetypical evidence of morphological speciation.

Comments?

[edits: typos corrected]

Completely, agree.

Nautica

 

[russ_watters]

Originally posted by Nereid
For some posters on this thread the real question isn't evolution, but the origin of life (or the universe), which is out of scope for this thread.

Important point - I find that most of the arguements against evolution are actually an attempt to argue about this point, which is not part of the scope of evolution.