Is it difficult to find jobs for physics graduates in today's job market?

[JohnDubYa]

RE: "The Occupational Handbook does predict high competion for the acedemic positions in physics because of the low turnover rate."

That's putting it mildly. For most graduates, I would not recommend an academic position for any number of reasons. The money simply isn't worth the aggravation. (And the students are not the problem, if you get my drift.)

Be aware that no school is going to touch a graduate unless he has completed an extra two years of postdoctoral research. Who wants to spend nearly ten years of post-graduate preparation to prepare for a $40,000/year job fending off the political attacks of Lexus-driving muckity mucks? I used to, but not anymore.

 

[NSX]

Thanks for the posts guys.

I'm going to stick with Mech. Eng. and complete the remainder of my Bachelor's.

Then [hopefully], as you guys say; I'll go for the Masters in Physics.

I'm thinking of visiting the UofToronto and UoWaterloo to ask if such a switch is possible in the summer sometime.

But for now ... i have to look for a summer job.

:P

 

[JohnDubYa]

As soon as you enter grad school begin taking as many of the solid undergraduate physics courses as your academic committee will allow. You will probably want to take E&M, QM, and Mechanics as soon as possible.

Be careful about taking graduate courses in physics as an undergraduate. Some schools will require you to take qualifier exams in those subjects right away if you have completed the graduate level courses. This can bite really, really bad.

 

[KingNothing]

I have a very important, and possibly very stupid question:

What exactly does a physicist do?

Besides more school than almost anyone else, say John is to get a doctorate in physics.

What would he do after that?...what jobs? what Kind of money would he make?

 

[bozo the clown]

Join the circus you could put your physics to good use swinging from a trapeze and calculating somersaults, work out where freddy's going to land when I fire him from our new cannon good pay too !

Failing that and you are strugling to find work, you could always pump gas like many graduates do or go back to being a professional student.

 

[ZapperZ]

I have a very important, and possibly very stupid question:

What exactly does a physicist do?

Besides more school than almost anyone else, say John is to get a doctorate in physics.

What would he do after that?...what jobs? what Kind of money would he make?

Y'know, I suppose it is way to much to expect everyone to read every single postings within a string. But after having posted two lengthy (and time-consuming) essays on here regarding this, and also a couple of links regarding the job statistics of physics graduates, it is very frustrating to still get a question such as this.

Zz.

 

[edtman]

Thanks for the posts guys.

I'm going to stick with Mech. Eng. and complete the remainder of my Bachelor's.

Then [hopefully], as you guys say; I'll go for the Masters in Physics.

I'm thinking of visiting the UofToronto and UoWaterloo to ask if such a switch is possible in the summer sometime.

But for now ... i have to look for a summer job.

:P

Wait! Before you make any life changing decisions look at engineering science again. I'm an Engineering Physics major at CU-Boulder and if Eng Science is anything like CU's Eng physics program you'd be better off taking that for your undergrad. and picking your electives to tailor towards a Mechanical/electrical engineering or even physics masters. Talk to an advisor and see if this is possible. A masters in a field of engineering will probably be more valuable than a physics masters if $$$ is your concern.

 

[cronxeh]

Hey everyone :)

This subject is very important to me as well.

Currently I'm in a Dual degree program (BS in Physics / BS Biological & Chemical Engineering). The BS in Physics curriculum is highly interdisciplinary and some courses are from EE and some are from chemistry (quantum chem, statistical mech).

If you are trully passionate about Physics, like me, then you should go for a dual degree (you get two diplomas) or a double major (one diploma (less credits) - you get a BS in Physics and some engineering for example). Now with a dual degree you can apply to a grad school in either field. As I'm uncertain which field to apply - either physics or chem engineering, and the job outlook for a bs in physics isn't optimistic to say the least.. I am definitely contemplating the options.

The dual degree may be the best option for some of you. And perhaps an Electrical Engineering / Physics mix or any other engineering you may find interesting.

As for what do Physicists do.. back in 80's there was a hype over cold fusion. after billions of dollars were pumped into the research, we are still nowhere close to that. I guess somewhere down the link people got disappointed with Physicists. And nowadays the only imagine that comes to mind is A. Einstein, NASA, the nuclear bombs and Hiroshima / Nagasaki obviously.

But the Physicists are to thank for modern electronics (all of them), the transistor, the satellites, all the nifty GPS gadgets, the man on the moon.. the atom force microscope.. the many other great achievements.

Id like to encourage you to study Physics, it deserves it for it's own beauty. With better understand in this subject, you gain better understand of the everyday life processes. A new Physics revolution is coming soon.. won't you like to be in grad school by the time it hits us? I sure would.

 

[edtman]

Also, I wouldn't be so quick to say that a degree in mechanical engineering will guarantee you a job. If you look at the DoL's occupational handbook the amount of new jobs is growing at a slower rate than that of new grads. It makes sense-look at what types of jobs have been moving overseas...manufacturing. Tech research isn't going anywhere and a degree in physics should help you secure a job in that industry.
Alex, I really feel for your situation and I'm sure you're aware of businesses leaving California in droves. I can think of two major corporations that have left Cali to relocate to Colorado recently, Sun Micro and Intel, and that's just 2 of the many that have moved to more business friendly states from California. I don't think California's current job situation accurately reflects that of the country.

 

[NSX]

Well, in Canada they treat any Engineering program as a professional program, so there's no chance for double majors [in conjunction with an Eng. Program]

 

[cronxeh]

why not?

its plain dumb if you can't major in double degrees. probably created by liberal arts majors..

 

[alexepascual]

Thanks guys for all your input.
NSX:
I was recently looking at the catalog of California-State Fulleron, where I plan to get my masters in Physics. I found they offer a degree in "Engineering Science", but I haven't inquired yet as to what that degree is.
( I had mentioned in another post that I had never heard about engineering science).
Edtman:
I was not aware that the situation in California was that much worse than the rest of the country. But I guess I am stuck here, unless I leave my wife by herself and go somewhere else.
With respect to research jobs not leaving the country, that may be true for federally funded research. But for research by industry, I think some of it is moving to China. I also heard that India has a very good school of engineering that compares to MIT.
As far as physics guaranteing a job better than engineering, I have serious doubts about that. but my situation is that I like physics better than engineering. I figure that having gotten a bachellor's degree in physics, it'll be easier to continue in physics. On the other hand, I guess getting a masters can only improve my chances of employment, although in two or three years I'll be older, which won't help at my age.

 

[MJH]

Thanks

This thread has been extremely valuable to me. I have decided at a later stage than most to return to school and pursue a physics degree. The info presented here reinforced my confidence in my decision. Thanks, posters!

 

[alexepascual]

MJH,
Are you going to get your master's degree or your bachellors? In what country do you live?
I am glad this thread helped you.

 

[MJH]

If everything goes according to plan I will pursue a PhD. I am in the US.

 

[ZapperZ]

Here's more useful advise, especially if one intends to pursue an academic career:

http://www.physicstoday.org/vol-57/iss-7/p56.html

Zz.

 

[alexepascual]

Zapper,
Thanks for the link. I read the article and I think it is great.

 

[JohnDubYa]

Ask your wife if she wants you to pursue money or your dreams. If the former, be prepared to listen to her whine about your career choice for the rest of your life.

 

[tyroman]

As a late-comer to this thread, my input may go un-noticed...

But for what it's worth, here goes;

This is not only for alex but also for those others who have replied in this thread and are in the midst of making degree/career decisions

i have inserted unattributed quotes from other posters which were particularly resonant with me.

By way of background, when i went back to college after millitary service (GI Bill) i had previous college course work in both science and business (no degree)

i evaluated my transcript in relation to various degree programs and determined that with about the same number of semester hours, i could either;

a.)complete a BS in Physics + an MBA or
b.)complete a BS in Engineering (Mech, Civil, Chem, Elec, etc.)

without consideration of employability, i selected the BS/MBA option

"Actually, my main question is: Are Engineering Science graduates as employable as graduates of Mechanical Engineering?"

i have always LOVED Physics and part of my decision reflected my generalist nature and the realization that a specific engineering degree or an MS (or higher) in Physics would require focusing in on narrower fields of knowledge

"But my main motivation has always been pure knowledge of the most fundamental processes in nature"

i also didn't want to "waste" two semesters of A's and B's in business...

So i entered the job market with a strange combination; BS-Physics and MBA-Economics (You may have heard of the Physicist who earned the Nobel in Economics for his application of Thermodynamics theory to the world economy - not me LOL)

The up-shot is that i wound up as a consulting "engineer" in the energy industry who (when times got tough) was among the first to get laid-off because i wasn't a "degreed engineer" and many potential clients held out for this credential in tight markets.

"Be careful of the teaching field unless you plan on getting a credential. Schools are now much tougher on handing out emergency credentials, and without a teaching credential you have little chance of obtaining a permanent teaching job. (Emergency credentials are also relegated to the lowest end of the pay scale.)"

Now, I'm not replying here to get sympathy... just to share my experience for whatever benefit it may be to others...

My mistake (once in the consulting business) was that i failed to enhance my marketability, which i could have done by becoming a Registered Professional Engineer (PE) by documenting my practice under supervision of a PE (EIT) and taking the state exam for registration.

"Some states allow bachelor degree holders to take Engineering exams. I can tell you from experience that a lot of the undergrad coursework for E.E. and Physics majors are closely related."

Sooooo... be forewarned that the practice of Engineering without the degree can become problematic.


Finally, a comment about the following reply:

"As for what do Physicists do.. back in 80's there was a hype over cold fusion. after billions of dollars were pumped into the research, we are still nowhere close to that."

Actually, the billions were not spent on "cold fusion" research, but on the more realistic plasma fusion programs (Tokamaks, laser containment, etc) and until the 90's when our then-President took the US out of the program through budget cuts, our research was cutting-edge.

 

[cronxeh]

actually i was referring to the hype that was caused by Stanley Pons and Martin Fleischmann in March 1989. sure fusion/plasma still has high hopes today (princeton's PPPL lab, some military/weapons-based research at lanl(?)) - but the billions were poured to the 'hot' fusion. sorry for the mix up


Edit: regarding the major. my own physics advisor told me that i probably won't find a job after i graduate, unless i go for a ph.d or masters to work in government sector.. but even with a bs degree in engineering, id be able to get a decent job (~50K +). its really a sad picture.. but then again you don't get into physics for profit these days

 

[JohnDubYa]

RE: "...and until the 90's when our then-President took the US out of the program through budget cuts, our research was cutting-edge."

Congress appropriates the money, not the President.

RE: "Edit: regarding the major. my own physics advisor told me that i probably won't find a job after i graduate,"

Not based solely on physics. But if you have learned some computer work, writing skills, marketing skills, and so on, on the side, you should be able to find a good job. Those are the skills that get you the qualifications. The physics gets you chosen ahead of the rest of the final cut.

 

[GTdan]

Well I am posting my question here so I don't end up creating a duplicate thread. I was thinking about getting a BS in physics and taking a bunch of classes specializing in a wide range that apply to electronics, optics, etc. I hope to make at least close to $50,000 a year entry level. Will I be able to find a job easy (or at all) after graduating with this in my resume? Is this an ok salary to expect? I am not money hungry but I don't want to use 4 years of college to get paid some small amount of money.

 

[JohnDubYa]

I think your expectations are reasonable. Keep an eye on the computer field as well, especially networking. If you can get A+ certification, that will really help.

 

[GTdan]

So I shouldn't have a problem finding a job?

 

[JohnDubYa]

I wouldn't think so as long as you have skills besides physics, such as electronics, networking, writing, and so on.

 

[Zandorian]

Well, I want to start my own company one day. I don't like the idea of "working" for other people all my life. Although the things I have read in this thread make me want to get a degree in some type of engineering as well as a ph.d in physics just for backup.

 

[GTdan]

sounds great. How exactly does getting skills work? Will I just be taking some special classes and then get a certificate or something?

 

[JohnDubYa]

A Ph.D. in physics as a backup? That is a mighty rough backup.

A lot of companies provide certification. There is BrainBench (although it is not a very rigorous certification), A+, CIW, and so on. You typically take a course or two and pass the certification exams. A lot of them you can do online.


CIW is nice in that they provide multimedia certication as well, which includes Web development, e-commerce, and so on. http://www.ciwcertified.com.

Also check out the online journal http://www.certmag.com/. It is the pre-eminent certification journal available.

 

[alexepascual]

GTdan,
I think JohnDubYa is too optimistic. His opinion maybe based on his own experience when he graduated. The thing is, you can't extrapolate from a few years ago to the present. We are presently going through a rough times when it comes to jobs in science and technology. The situation may improve in a few years, but besides the cyclic changes, there are also long term changes (globalization and a migration of jobs from the US to India and China)
The suggestion that taking electronics and networking courses at the same time you get your degree in physics makes some sense. This will give you more practical skills. But I believe that while this strategy would have worked wonders a few years ago, I doubt today would guarantee you a job. But if you like physics enough that you whant to take this major regardless, I guess taking some computing/engineering courses will improve your prospects.
The thing is, when it comes to these skills JohnDubYa mentions, companies often look for a networking specialist, a software engineer, an electrical engineer, etc. But you see less frequently requests for someone who can do all of the above. Medium-size to large companies look for people who can do one thing and can show experience doing that one thing. By doing one thing I mean having one degree, and experience in a specialty that relates to that degree. Example: someone with a degree in electronics engineering, and 3 years experience in RF. or in embedded circuits design and programming.
Let's say then you decide to study computer science. Typically it would have been easier for someone with a degree in computer science to get a job after graduation than for someone with a degree in physics. But I know this young guy who got his degree in computer science and he can't get a job.
The probability of your getting a job quickly after graduation may depend on where you live or if you are willing to relocate.
In today's job market, it is not sufficient to say that you have taken courses in this or that, most companies are asking for experience. This tends to be like a vicious cycle. Where can you get the experience if you can't get a job in the first place?
Other posts mention that physics puts you ahead of the pack. I like physics and I'll be pursuing a master's degree in physics. But I think that when it comes to jobs, physics does not give you an advantage, unless you double major in engineering. But in that case it is your engineering degree that is going to get you the job.
$50,000 entry level is also too optimistic, unless you have connections. I think in today's market $35,000 - $40,000 is more realistic. But I think there is pressure for entry-level salaries in science-enginering to get even lower in the future.
If you want to understand better what is going on in the job market, I suggest you look at jobs in the classsified section of the sunday newspaper.
This can also give you a feel for how hot or cold the job market is. Look at "engineers" (no physicist entries exist though).
Another idea: start doing a search on the web for jobs that require a physics degree, as if you had already graduated and were looking for a job.
You can also do a serach in google and put: physics + BS + employment
There are some sites that cater to science, but most of the jobs posted in these sites require masters or phds.
Don't get your expectations too high. If you do you may get dissapointed later. If your love for physics is not really strong, then I would suggest you change majors to one of the engineering disciplines.

 

[GTdan]

Well, I have been checking many sites and every estimate I get is around $50,000 salary. Heck, my dad supports a family of 5 with a house and 4 cars and he gets under $40,000 so maybe that wouldn't bother me too much. I checked my local newspaper and there a number of engineering jobs there (and my city is really small compared to most). I also checked here just now: http://www.aip.org/statistics/trends/states/state.htm

I am definitely willing to relocate. Probably not to far off places but still willing to move around alot. I am used to it because I am a "military brat." I expect I may have to skimp around for enough experience to get a better job at first but I might be able to get around that with internships and the like. I really love physics and I am more hyped about it than engineering.

 

[alexepascual]

GTDan,
I was just affraid you might be making decisions based on too high expectations. But now that you made clear that it wouldn't be a problem for you to start at a lower salary and you are willing to relocate, I think you might do well. I wish you good luck.
About the information on the AIP site. Information from AIP is usually out of date and I would also doubt about the validity of their statistics. You might also want to take into consideration that they have a vested interest in making the employment outlook appear rosy for physics mayors.
Good luck again and study hard,

 

[fizixx]

Zapper...

Interesting posts indeed. Unfortunately I don't have time to write, but my curiosity was great enough to ask you about the website that you run? I would be interedted in the articles you mentioned that are there; 'so you want to be a physicist'. I am a physicist...industrial, in optics, but am always interested in what is going on and what other oportunities may lay ahead.

Thanks, and I would also like to come back and contribute to the original author of this post, as I think it is very topical and possibly a more ubiquitous issue than what some/many folks think.

Happy holidays everyone...
Kindly,
fiz~

 

[ZapperZ]

Zapper...

Interesting posts indeed. Unfortunately I don't have time to write, but my curiosity was great enough to ask you about the website that you run? I would be interedted in the articles you mentioned that are there; 'so you want to be a physicist'. I am a physicist...industrial, in optics, but am always interested in what is going on and what other oportunities may lay ahead.

Thanks, and I would also like to come back and contribute to the original author of this post, as I think it is very topical and possibly a more ubiquitous issue than what some/many folks think.

Happy holidays everyone...
Kindly,
fiz~

Obviously, this is the one thread that didn't get move the the new section Academic Help section of PF.

I have reposted that series of essays into my journal section on here. So you are welcome to check it out. I also welcome any feedback that you have regarding the essay so far, especially on areas which you think I have missed or did not emphasize enough. I'm hoping to rewrite the entire essay into something more cohesive when I have completed the final part. So any suggestions are certainly appreciated.

Zz.

 

[ramesh512]

Hi, friends and off-course Alexe!

I like these write-ups about "Jobs for Physics Graduates".
Many wrote this, many that and so on...

Everyone of us must found one thing that the Physics is the base of every-science in the universe, but obviously not the specific as that of Chemistry/Pharmacy/Electronics/Mech Or even Commerce.

It's also true that it is Physics degree next to Engg.

Many of my classmates gone to CS, CA, BA, masterings as everyone of us can not become a 'Scientist'. It is very clear that you continue revising with Physics for becoming a Professor if not scientist.

So, don't bother, apply your analytical-skills and perception and go on..

 

[jtbell]

I suggest that you (and anybody else who is tempted to post) look at the dates on the preceding posts in this thread.