Is it harder to get into a top US PhD Program with a German Master's degree?

[warhammer]

In my country we have the Three Year Bachelor Degree system (which is being accepted for a change by many US universities now).

I have picked out a few options & would *really really* like to do my Doctorate in the States. An alternate plan is to pursue my Master's from JGU Mainz in Germany (Have you guys heard of it?) from where I have gotten in. And then apply to PhD Progs post a 2Y Master's.

Here's the problem. One gentleman I know & is doing his PhD from Northeastern warned me that it is harder to get into States with a German Master's. He said best way to do PhD in States is to do an MS in States anywhere between great and decent. Otherwise, even a high quality German Master's renders your chances comparable to an MS from one of your top Home Institutions.

I'm suspecting this fails the smell test (because with a good GPA & Master's Thesis added with a superior German education from a top German uni would be hallmark of a healthy application right?) but any opinions & thoughts on this.

 

[Vanadium 50]

I'm not sure you're asking the right question. Mainz (yes, I've heard of it, and even visited it) is about at the same level as Iowa State, UC Riverside or Kansas, A master's from Mainz will be viewed in that light. I find it hard to believe that a top PhD program will say "Wow! He has a masters from Kansas! We need to grab him before someone else does!"

 

[warhammer]

I'm not sure you're asking the right question. Mainz (yes, I've heard of it, and even visited it) is about at the same level as Iowa State, UC Riverside or Kansas, A master's from Mainz will be viewed in that light. I find it hard to believe that a top PhD program will say "Wow! He has a masters from Kansas! We need to grab him before someone else does!"

Oh. Actually JGU Mainz is academically ranked much higher than the universities you've mentioned (specifically Physics ranking) & based on the D-Index criteria as well. Being member of the special German U15 is also something.

Taking it to be true, even a good GPA & Master's Thesis won't help my prospects for a good Grad Program is what you are hinting at?

 

[Vanadium 50]

You are free to argue the point in your application. But not many people will substitute ranking for their own judgment. Mainz is a good school. Iowa State is a good school. But neither one is #1 in the world. Or #2. Or #10. Or #20.

 

[warhammer]

You are free to argue the point in your application. But not many people will substitute ranking for their own judgment. Mainz is a good school. Iowa State is a good school. But neither one is #1 in the world. Or #2. Or #10. Or #20.

I understand. Would you say this is also true of Hamburg, Bonn & Heidelberg?

If you don't mind me asking, did you know anybody who in similar/somewhat similar circumstances was able to get in, I'd like to know what they did.

He said best way to do PhD in States is to do an MS in States anywhere between great and decent.

Additionally, what is your opinion on this? His logic was Americans like to keep research closeted amongst themselves so as to maintain their lead & advantage.

 

[Vanadium 50]

It takes decades to build up a university, but only one year to destroy it. For Germany, that year was 1933 and they still not have recovered from it. The universities you mention (and I might add others like Karlsrhue and Freiburg) Just aren't going to automatically open doors for you at Stanford or MIT.

Look at it this way. The US awards 2000 PhDs a year. Say half are from the "top" universities. That's 1000. Say 45% are international - that's 450. One third Indian, one third Chinese and one third EU/Canada and we're left with 150, About 20% of that population is German, so 30. That seems high to me, but lets go with 30.

Germany awards ~2500 Master.Diploma degrees in physics per year. 2500 >> 30. And that's the problem.

 

[AndreasC]

I have a professor who did undergrad in a very low ranked school (which was nevertheless top in the country), and he had somewhat mediocre grades, then did a Masters in Iowa State, and then he got into a PhD in MIT. This happened in the 2000s, so not ancient history. I can't tell you how and why, but it goes to show that it's certainly possible. How easy it is I don't know. I have no idea to what extent US universities favor US masters in PhD admissions.

Either way, very few people in Europe apply for PhD positions in the US, for various reasons. With PhDs the supervisor is more important than the school, if you can't get into MIT or whatever it's fine, you can find other supervisors in Germany who may be more related to what you want to do.

 

[bhobba]

I don't know about the US, but in Aus, many universities are moving from direct admission to a PhD to get a Master's in Research First, then your PhD. It used to take four years to get a PhD here, but now they have moved the Masters in Research model (2 years if you have a three-year degree, 1 year if you have a 4-year degree). You do a 3 year PhD. You can exit the Master of Research after one year with a Bachelor of Research.

Thanks
Bill

 

[warhammer]

I have a professor who did undergrad in a very low ranked school (which was nevertheless top in the country), and he had somewhat mediocre grades, then did a Masters in Iowa State, and then he got into a PhD in MIT. This happened in the 2000s, so not ancient history. I can't tell you how and why, but it goes to show that it's certainly possible. How easy it is I don't know. I have no idea to what extent US universities favor US masters in PhD admissions.

Either way, very few people in Europe apply for PhD positions in the US, for various reasons. With PhDs the supervisor is more important than the school, if you can't get into MIT or whatever it's fine, you can find other supervisors in Germany who may be more related to what you want to do.

Thank you for responding. I should have made it clear actually in #1, by top program I didn't mean necessarily Stanford, MIT, Harvard et al but programs at places like JHU, Rice, CU Boulder, Purdue (because faculty here are aligned with my interests) (also understand these are top tier programs in their own right).

Yes, a European PhD would be the Plan B in that case at an institution with an aligned & supportive Faculty/Supervisor.

Additionally, was the MA/MS Program your Professor did was a Terminal one? I didn't see such a program on their website actually.. Or did they allow him to exit post Master's completion?

 

[AndreasC]

Thank you for responding. I should have made it clear actually in #1, by top program I didn't mean necessarily Stanford, MIT, Harvard et al but programs at places like JHU, Rice, CU Boulder, Purdue (because faculty here are aligned with my interests) (also understand these are top tier programs in their own right).

Yes, a European PhD would be the Plan B in that case at an institution with an aligned & supportive Faculty/Supervisor.

Additionally, was the MA/MS Program your Professor did was a Terminal one? I didn't see such a program on their website actually.. Or did they allow him to exit post Master's completion?

I'm not sure what you mean by "terminal" and "allowing him to exit". It was a 2 year MS in physics in Iowa State, then he went to MIT for a PhD, that's all I know.

About the other places you said, I know someone in Rice actually and he did a Masters in the same place I am doing my masters in, which is lower ranked than yours.

 

[warhammer]

I'm not sure what you mean by "terminal" and "allowing him to exit". It was a 2 year MS in physics in Iowa State, then he went to MIT for a PhD, that's all I know.

In US according to my knowledge, there are very few Master's only Programs (which are labelled as Terminal). A Master's Degree is earned on the way to a PhD upon completion of courses in first two years of the Grad Program & not separately. This is what I meant when I asked if they allowed him to exit.

About the other places you said, I know someone in Rice actually and he did a Masters in the same place I am doing my masters in, which is lower ranked than yours.

Lower ranked than yours meaning - in States or Germany? If it's the latter may I know where you're currently studying & did you mean it in relation to JGU Mainz?

 

[AndreasC]

did you mean it in relation to JGU Mainz?

Yes, Mainz. It's lower ranked than Mainz. And people have done Masters here and went on to Rice and whatever other school.

My professor did the Masters separately. Every place "allows" you to exit, it's not like they can force you to stay there lol.

 

[gwnorth]

I'm not sure what you mean by "terminal" and "allowing him to exit".

A terminal master's is exactly that. You're admitted to a standalone master's program and you graduate with a master's degree. This is frequently the model in Europe/UK/Canada though terminal master's programs in Physics do exist in the US though they are uncommon.

"Allowing him to exit" means that he was actually admitted to a PhD program and either chose to not continue or was not allowed to progress to candidacy and "mastered out" with a master's degree.

Since this individual appears to have gone on to a high ranked PhD program it's most likely the first case scenario and not the second.

 

[gwnorth]

Here's the problem. One gentleman I know & is doing his PhD from Northeastern warned me that it is harder to get into States with a German Master's. He said best way to do PhD in States is to do an MS in States anywhere between great and decent. Otherwise, even a high quality German Master's renders your chances comparable to an MS from one of your top Home Institutions.

I would not say that this person is necessarily correct. Certainly it will depend somewhat on the ranking of the master's granting institution in Germany but I would not say that a master's degree from a mid-tier program in the US like U Iowa (#146) would be given greater weight than a master's from a top ranked university in Germany like the University of Munich (#28) or TU Munich (#49). There may be some degree of choosing candidates from domestic programs that the admissions committee is very familiar with over lesser known international programs (and there is some elitism involved), but that should not be an impediment to a candidate from a highly ranked international program.

What you need to understand is that admission to PhD programs are holistic. While your academic credentials like your GPA, relevant test scores, and rigour of your course work are important, arguably even more so will be tangible criteria such as research experience, any publications and conference presentations, your letters of reference, and fit with the research that is being conducted in the program. A student who on paper appears to have lower academic credential may be chosen for admission over a top tier candidate if they are a strong fit for the research being conducted. Ultimately what admitting committees want to know is that the students they admit to the program are going to be successful, and for a PhD that means being able to conduct research effectively more so than being able to get top grades in course work (though of course that's important too).

 

[Vanadium 50]

terminal master's programs in Physics do exist in the US though they are uncommon.

Are they?

There appear to be 160 PhD granting, 400 MS granting and 750 BS granting institutions. (Inclusive, and in the US). So the number of MS-only programs is comparable to and possibly a bit bigger the number of PhD programs.

However, these programs are less well-known, and very likely small. I'm guessing, but I bet a lot of their students are non-traditional and looking for credentialing.

 

[gwnorth]

Sorry I should have said that it is less common for students in the US to attend a terminal master's programs in Physics than PhD programs.

 

[Vanadium 50]

I'm not even sure that's true. It's certainly a slice of students you don't hear much about. What I absolutely agree with is that the US has a two-school model, where you get your BS at one and a PhD (with or without a MS on the way) at another, and Europe has more of a three-school model, where you get a BS at one school, a MS at another, and a PhD at yet another.

AIP seems not to have gathered much in the way of statistics on MS students. From looking around, one served group would be high school teachers getting a MS for career advancement purposes.

I don't know how this compares to the number of students who start but do not complete a PhD program but get an MS on the way.

 

[jtbell]

AIP seems not to have gathered much in the way of statistics on MS students. From looking around, one served group would be high school teachers getting a MS for career advancement purposes.

Another group is medical physicists.

Vanderbilt University Masters in Medical Physics program