Is It Justifiable for Police to Use a Taser on a 10-Year-Old?

[Hurkyl]

This path leads to dark consequences.

You can slippery slope the other way too. If we object to stun guns, then what next? Do we object to handcuffs? Any use of physical force at all?

The solution? Don't jump down a slippery slope. Find an appropriate position, rather than a hysterical one.

 

[DanP]

You can slippery slope the other way too. If we object to stun guns, then what next? Do we object to handcuffs? Any use of physical force at all?

The solution? Don't jump down a slippery slope. Find an appropriate position, rather than a hysterical one.

I personally don't even object to lethal force, if mandated. A dead criminal is one less worry for the society and saves taxpayers money. I won't even blink.

That being said, there are a lot of cases where use of force means exceeding the mandate. As I said, the solution IMO to all those issues with police brutality (whatever imaginary or real, on a case by case basis) is transparency in investigation, equity and harsh penal sentences in the cases where mandate is exceed.

 

[WaveJumper]

You can slippery slope the other way too. If we object to stun guns, then what next? Do we object to handcuffs? Any use of physical force at all?

The solution? Don't jump down a slippery slope. Find an appropriate position, rather than a hysterical one.

You are aware that this police-can-taser-10y.o.-girls attitude is making the headlines from UK, through Bulgaria, to Papua New Guinea? I can't imagine you desire your police to be regarded as idiots, who can't restrain a child unless they electrocute them. What a senseless act, and senseless arguments about bruises, scrathces, disjointed elbows, broken legs,etc.

Last i checked a Polish immigrant was killed at one of your airports by a policeman who used taser gun. There is a video on youtube.



There is one more death from 6 months ago:

http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory?id=7145313

 

[WaveJumper]

As already noted the real threat was to the child herself. I have previously looked up information about the danger of stun guns thinking that they must be pretty bad and to my surprise I found that they are apparently incredibly safe.

So incredibly safe, that an adult male was killed. Talk about safety and police brutality.

BTW, electrocuting is a form of punishment, it is not up to a high school educated officer to hand out punishment. This isn't how justice works and at least in Europe, this police officer would have been detained.

What if the 10 year old girl had heart problems? What kind of treatment is this and how can this be acceptable?

 

[Pattonias]

So incredibly safe, that an adult male was killed. Talk about safety and police brutality.

BTW, electrocuting is a form of punishment, it is not up to a high school educated officer to hand out punishment. This isn't how justice works and at least in Europe, this police officer would have been detained.

What if the 10 year old girl had heart problems? What kind of treatment is this and how can this be acceptable?

The adult male was killed due to a chain of events that culminated in the taser stopping his heart, but I don't think you can blame it solely on the taser itself. When the officers used more than a single taser they most likely caused the charge to cross his heart stopping it. They then did not use CPR or one of the numerous deliberators in most every airport I've been to to revive him. This death was due to the negligence of the officers.

In the case of the little girl, his education should have little to do with it. A college trained idiot is just as capable of messing up as a high school one. The police department is supposed to train its officers to handle domestic disputes just like this one.

The family should not be able to charge the officer as the mother gave him permission to use the taser. The police department should punish the officer for acting stupidly. The department should also spend a lot more time training their officers in the proper use of the taser. The taser should be considered an alternative to drawing a gun. Not as an alternative for physical contact, especially with a 10 year old girl.

 

[DanP]

BTW, electrocuting is a form of punishment, it is not up to a high school educated officer to hand out punishment. This isn't how justice works and at least in Europe, this police officer would have been detained.

Law enforcers does not apply punishment. Courts of law do. However, LEO mandate allows him use of weapons, including lethal force, in specific situations. We can't deny the law enforcer the right to defend himself against criminals, nor the use of weapons in situations where suspect violently resist apprehension. This is not a form of punishment. The main purpose of law enforcement is to apprehend criminals.

The problem only exists when the policeman exceeds its mandate, effectively stepping outside the law. And education level doesn't really belong in this thread. We don't need to feel superior only because a college, a Phd or whatever. This job aint easy.

In this case the data presented points towards a case of police brutality. But I would feel better if I knew more details before making my mind.

 

[DanP]

However this is ridiculous:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...gun-to-subdue-10-year-old-girl-suspended.html

QUOTE
********************************************
But Police Chief Jim Noggle said on Wednesday that Taser stun guns are a safe way to subdue people who are a danger to themselves or others.
"We didn't use the Taser to punish the child - just to bring the child under control so she wouldn't hurt herself or somebody else," Mr Noggle said.
Had the officer tried to forcefully put the girl in handcuffs, he could have accidentally broken her arm or leg, Mr Noggle said.
Mr Noggle said the girl will face disorderly conduct charges as a juvenile
*******************************************

It appears that the commissioner is already trying to save face and proceed with cover-ups.
Too many excuses before the investigation was completed, and a direct attack, stating that the girl will have to face criminal charges.

This kind of behavior is always suspicious to me.

 

[Pattonias]

I think this may be more complicated than we can speculate on with these short news snippets.

 

[DanP]

I think this may be more complicated than we can speculate on with these short news snippets.

Yes, but I have yet to see a police chief saying:

"We will investigate the event with all seriousness and if the officer is found guilty he will be severely punished"

instead the weasel says:

"We will investigate the incident. What I can tell you for now is that the emotionally unstable 10 years old which our department tased will have to face additional emotional stress because we decided to press criminal charges against her. We really don't care about her and her well being .. This is a message to all you idiots who try to oppose the might of my force"

 

[ideasrule]

Forget handcuffs or piling up on the child. I can (and have) physically restrained a hysterical child (<12 years old) without injuring either him or myself, and I'm well-known for being physically weak. Maybe the police department should fire those idiots and hire me instead?

 

[Moonbear]

I think as soon as the mom suggested tasering the child because she was throwing a tantrum about taking a shower, the mom should have been hauled off for child abuse charges. Clearly, there is a parenting problem if a mother feels she needs to call cops to handle a 10 year old's tantrum about taking a shower...or even that a 10 year old is throwing a tantrum about taking a shower.

If it really wasn't a parenting issue but that the child really does react unusually violently, then the mother shouldn't be calling a cop but a psychiatrist.

The appropriate response to a kid throwing herself on the floor kicking and screaming about a shower is to leave her on the floor kicking and screaming until she realizes it isn't getting her anywhere. Go do the laundry and dishes and let everyone else in the house shower first and leave her with cold water for the shower, then remind her that if she hadn't stalled so much and took her shower when told, she would have had hot water for her shower. When I was a kid, it didn't take long before we figured out that stalling at shower time meant we got the last shower without much hot water, and started fighting for the first shower instead.

 

[Moonbear]

Forget handcuffs or piling up on the child. I can (and have) physically restrained a hysterical child (<12 years old) without injuring either him or myself, and I'm well-known for being physically weak. Maybe the police department should fire those idiots and hire me instead?

I have done so too, when one of my step-nephews was getting completely out of hand and the other older kids were getting ready to clobber him. Since he was the antagonist, I told him to go to another room by himself until everyone cooled down and he straightened out his behavior (and for his own safety to separate him from his older brother and cousins who I would not have been able to stop from ganging up on him if they finally got pushed over the limit they were getting close to). When he thought he wasn't going to listen and was going to keep terrorizing the older kids, I just held him while he was kicking and screaming. He kicked my shins a few times, but when he figured out it wasn't going to get him free and was only extending the cool-off period, he eventually calmed down and sat quietly for a little while and then behaved properly when allowed to join the other kids again, and eventually apologized for acting out.

 

[DanP]

I think as soon as the mom suggested tasering the child because she was throwing a tantrum about taking a shower, the mom should have been hauled off for child abuse charges.

This is the reason I am still waiting for new data in this case. I am interested on what could prompt two mature ppl, the mother and the cop, both agree that the child should be stunned, and proceed to execution of this plan.

Maybe there is something we don't know yet.

If there is nothing else then the "shower issue", then both the mother and the cop belong either to a prison for several months, either to an asylum, getting electroconvulsive therapy on a daily basis.

 

[Evo]

This was in a small rural area in Arkansas. It's a bit of a different world there. But my question is still why would a 10 year old lying on the floor screaming need to be arrested? The officer should have just left, or called child welfare if he thought the child needed to be removed from the home for her own safety.

 

[JasonRox]

LOL! Awesome!

 

[Hurkyl]

I can't imagine you desire your police to be regarded as idiots,

I don't care about the latest public opinion fad. I want this police officer judged on whether or not he was doing his job, not whether or not he followed the latest fashions.

Last i checked a Polish immigrant was killed at one of your airports by a policeman who used taser gun. There is a video on youtube.

Again, so what?

 

[Sorry!]

This was in a small rural area in Arkansas. It's a bit of a different world there. But my question is still why would a 10 year old lying on the floor screaming need to be arrested? The officer should have just left, or called child welfare if he thought the child needed to be removed from the home for her own safety.

Can't be done Evo the police officer has to do his job. It doesn't matter about the age of the child it comes down to the mothers decision and she must have decided to have the child arrested and charged. The police officer can only suggest to the mother what to do he can't just be like 'ya right I'm not listening to you'. It doesn't work that way in any part of the world that I know of.

Regardless of that I think everyone skipped over my first post in this thread. They are continuing to speak of 'what are the risks' it doesn't matter about what the risks were he should never have thought that this incident has risen to the level which he has to use less lethal force. I've personally seen police officers struggle with offenders for 10 minutes before they even THINK about pulling out the taser/pepper spray.

No Ape you are right he shouldn't treat this girl like ordinary thugs. He should be more gentle with her she is just a little girl. I don't see how your comment justifies him using the taser... it seems rediculous to me to suggest that police should go around tasering everyone to arrest them.
If he tried to physically restrain her I highly doubt that she would have been hurt. Yes when a police officer puts cuffs on you it hurts a lot but they are trained specially to put the cuffs on children. They do not put them on to a child the same way they put them on to a grown person. If a cop can do this to subdue the child then what's to stop parents from using the exact same logic? "Oh she was going crazy it was all self-defense!" "It was for the good of the child that I tasered her."

Anyway the risk of using a taser on a child is that they have been shown to have a greater chance of a "serious cardiac event". One child who was tasered at 14 years had his heart stop and it took 4 attempts with a defib. to revive him. Obviously the incident levels are low because most police officers use their brain before subduing these hardened child criminals with a taser. This doesn't get rid of the fact that the taser is more likely to cause injury or death to a child. (there have been something like 250 deaths in America related to taser use? Possibly more I'm not sure.) The company that develops the tasers used warn of this risk and is suggests against use of the taser against small children or other at-risk people unless it is worth the risk of having the offender die. Is a small girl not wanting to go shower really worth killing her?

 

[Dembadon]

It all depends on the area and their laws. I actually had a co-worker who went to the police academy and was training to be an officer who was completely let loose and barred from consideration after he improperly handled a female juvenile during a ride along. Where I live it is nearly always necessary for a female officer to handle female suspects and detainees.

While I do not doubt your story, I think "sexual abuse" was misused by the poster to whom I was responding. I was merely pointing out how far one would have to go to be considered for sexual abuse charges.

 

[Sorry!]

I don't care about the latest public opinion fad. I want this police officer judged on whether or not he was doing his job, not whether or not he followed the latest fashions.

You must have missed my post the one about the use of force continuum? You can hardly be suggesting that he would have been able to use this type of force against a child... especialyl with all the recommendations against it UNLESS the police officer accepts that he must risk the child dying.

If this adds anything I'm pretty sure the police officer has been suspended and they are thinking about pressing criminal charges against him. (He apparently followed their departments procedures but I think that's BS just trying to make sure that the police still look good in public opinion if the FBI gets involved I'm sure it'll be shown otherwise)

 

[Hurkyl]

Regardless of that I think everyone skipped over my first post in this thread.

I would love to be enlightened about the real facts about taser usage versus other means of arresting a person. But it's hard to have any sort of enlightening discussion when you have people essentially shouting nothing more than "taser use = Evil".

Honestly, there probably wouldn't be much to say once everybody is on board with their reason rather than their hysteria.

 

[Evo]

I don't think that someone can just insist that someone be arrested, they would have to be assumed guilty of breaking some law. The officer did not have to arrest the child because the mother told him to. Either the article is leaving out something huge like the child had attacked the mother violently and was a danger to herself or others, or the officer should have judged if he should just leave or call child welfare to assess the situation.

 

[Pattonias]

I will mention that from the wording of the article he probably tried to restrain the girl before he used the taser. How else would he get kicked in the groin. He probably was not in the ideal state of mind after that point.

A female officer should have been present if at all possible. I don't think that anything inappropriate in that regard occurred, but a female officer would have been better able to work with the child in my opinion. I think given the circumstances a female officer would be better able to act as mediator.

 

[cristo]

Can't be done Evo the police officer has to do his job. It doesn't matter about the age of the child it comes down to the mothers decision and she must have decided to have the child arrested and charged. The police officer can only suggest to the mother what to do he can't just be like 'ya right I'm not listening to you'. It doesn't work that way in any part of the world that I know of.

Surely it's not up to the mother whether or not her child is breaking the law. The police officer made a decision as to whether the child was behaving illegally, or whether it was just the normal behaviour of a child. This should not be influenced by the fact that the mother cannot stand her childs' actions. Last time I checked, pissing off your mother is not an offence!

 

[WhoWee]

This was in a small rural area in Arkansas. It's a bit of a different world there. But my question is still why would a 10 year old lying on the floor screaming need to be arrested? The officer should have just left, or called child welfare if he thought the child needed to be removed from the home for her own safety.

Perhaps the mother and child should have been taken in for questioning (was the child abused - the mother did suggest the taser) and further evaluation. It's my opinion that if a mother needs to call the police to discipline a child, the mother is clearly not in control and another adult (perhaps the father?) should be called to retrieve the child. TOO MUCH DRAMA!

 

[cristo]

I don't think that someone can just insist that someone be arrested, they would have to be assumed guilty of breaking some law. The officer did not have to arrest the child because the mother told him to. Either the article is leaving out something huge like the child had attacked the mother violently and was a danger to herself or others, or the officer should have judged if he should just leave or call child welfare to assess the situation.

Great minds...

I agree with the last poster, a female officer should have been present if at all possible. I don't think that anything inappropriate in that regard occurred, but a female officer would have been better able to work with the child in my opinion.

Because women are better at dealing with children?

 

[Pattonias]

Surely it's not up to the mother whether or not her child is breaking the law. The police officer made a decision as to whether the child was behaving illegally, or whether it was just the normal behaviour of a child. This should not be influenced by the fact that the mother cannot stand her childs' actions. Last time I checked, pissing off your mother is not an offence!

I don't think there is anything illegal about throwing a temper tantrum in your home. Perhaps the groin kick is the source of the charges now, but I doubt that will hold water.

 

[DanP]

TOO MUCH DRAMA!

Its getting political. So expect everyone and their mothers do the drama.

 

[Dembadon]

What are the risks (injury or otherwise) of the officer physically subduing the girl?

Any criticism of taser use is completely meaningless without such a comparison.

You've brought an excellent perspective to this discussion.

I admit to being ignorant regarding the use of tasers and your post encouraged me to look them up. I saw a common denominator in the articles I read; if a person has a pre-existing heart condition, they can potentially cause problems. This is rare, however, and my findings may tip the scales in the favor of a grown man being more likely to harm a child by using other (physical) methods.

Thanks for your thoughts, Hurkyl.

 

[Sorry!]

I would love to be enlightened about the real facts about taser usage versus other means of arresting a person. But it's hard to have any sort of enlightening discussion when you have people essentially shouting nothing more than "taser use = Evil".

Honestly, there probably wouldn't be much to say once everybody is on board with their reason rather than their hysteria.

Real facts about taser usage:
They are less-lethal weapons employed by the some police officers.

Less-lethal weapons are to be used in situations where the police officer feels justified in using lethal force but thinks that by using less-lethal force he can difuse the situation without cause death.

Other less-lethal weapons include pepper spray, bean bags, rubber bullets and other chemical weapons. They use these types of weapons to control prison riots instead of just killing all the prisoners.

Police officers must really attempt to physically restrain the person before thinking about using the taser. It is not like if I resist arrest a police officer can just be like 'ok I'm going to tase you' it doesn't work that way.

Tasers have been shown to be problematic when used against smaller people or at-risk people. (Children) It has a higher chance of causing serious cardiac effects.

It has happened before when a child was tasered that they had their heart stop (more than once or twice).

The company that makes the tasers issues suggestions that officers should not use the taser against these type of people especially children unless it warrants the risk of the child dying (think if the child was holding a gun threatening to shoot her mom or herself).

What risk does a child pose curled on the ground throwing a tantrum? Who hasn't seen this happen before? Normally the only injury that results in this sort of behaviour isn't from the tantrum itself but from the swift *** beats that come after.Anyways since this officer even got kicked in the groin suggests to me that before he approached the girl he wasn't taking this event seriously. It is very rare that an officer will go to arrest a person and the person will have an opportunity to land a good hit on the officer because they are trained against these types of situations.

 

[DanP]

This is rare, however, and may tip the scales in the favor of a grown man being more likely to harm a child by using other (physical) methods.

Thanks for your thoughts, Hurkyl.

What do you mean by physical methods ? Knees in face and elbows in the spine ? Perhaps some neck cranks ? Sure, if that's applied by a LEO the poor kid would be killed from the second blow. But it doesn't have to be that way :P Do you ppl realize how easy is to immobilize a 10 years old without hurting him ?

 

[Dembadon]

...
Do you ppl realize how easy is to immobilize a 10 years old without hurting him ?

Or how easy it is to hurt them?

Nobody here can know what the right decision was as we were not on scene; I wrongfully jumped to a conclusion probably based on ignorance. I think the most important thing to consider is the fact that this officer may have avoided more serious injuries by "stinging" her.

 

[DanP]

Or how easy it is to hurt them?

Generations after generations of parents from all over the world had to deal with situations similar to the one described by Moonbear. I have yet to hear about a *single* case in which such a event ended up "hurting" the kid.

Perhapes we should start to distribute tasers to parents all over the world to be used as a kid calming method , if it's such a a wonderful mean to end a conflict without suffering.

 

[Sorry!]

Or how easy it is to hurt them?

Exactly the point. Using a taser on a child has been shown to have an increased risk for serious cardiac effects. Including having the heart completely stop leading to death. This happens in grown adults and this officer is using the same level of force to subdue the child. You are twisting the logic to a different misinformed conclusion I think.

A police officer is trained in a plethora of physical ways to restrain an individual. Yes some of them are fairly painful but so is getting tasered (have you ever been tasered? I have it's not fun).

It would have been fairly easy for a trained officer to position himself to control the childs legs, parents do it all the time without getting any sort of injuries. All it would take is one knee on top of the childs legs and for him to use his hands to control the rest of her. He does not need to use any more force unless your suggesting that this child could possibly physically injure the officer in combat? (which is rediculous)

 

[WaveJumper]

It is incredible that this issue is still being debated. It is shocking and frightening that such violent methods of establishing discipline on children are being favoured by intelligent individuals.

 

[DanP]

It is incredible that this issue is still being debated. It is shocking and frightening that such violent methods of establishing discipline on children are being favoured by intelligent individuals.

The herd of sheep is so terrified nowadays , that will let the Shepard dog do anything to them , in the hope the wise Shepard dog will think for them, and deliver them from the menace of the Big Bad Wolf.

The irony is that we live in a society where tasering a dog is considered a cruelty and will get you fined or imprisoned, but teasering a human baby is normal and defended by some members of the society.