Is it possible to prove the existence of God?

[Evo]

Yes, we do discuss these things, no, we don't feel urge to do so.

VISTREL - the original poster - has exactly three posts at the moment. I think you will easily find that most of these threads are started not by long timers, but by new arrivals (some of them just trolling). Why do PFers take part? Because they want to put some logic into discussion and to straighten the misconceptions people carry about what the science is and what it can/can't do. The that's the way we discuss things at PF.

At the same time we are just too nice to new members to ban them and close all these threads immediately, which would be probably the easiest approach.

If members would ignore these threads and not post, they would just wither and die.

 

[Boy@n]

Nothing 'higher' than our understanding can ever be proven. And once we undarstand it, proving it is pointless. (Except perhaps for the sake of those who don't understand it, yet.)

Our belief in God, or not, doesn't change the truth of it, whatever it is, so, really, from where the NEED to believe either way?

If possible I'd suggest drop beliefs, go for what you sincerely feel and keep that to yourself if not asked about, don't force it onto others.

I know what I feel and think about It, but I noticed it several times, that sharing it, no matter how enthusiasticelly and truthfuly, can do more damage than good, because it 'invades' personal beliefs and convictions.

So, I won't go into details but just say that in my view, only awareness is what really matters, since awareness is what 'enables' existence.

Thus, I'd say awareness is essence of 'true' existence.

And it makes sense to consider that there are countless states or levels of awareness.

Why wouldn't there be one which is 'highest', being God?

 

[Shackleford]

How would you prove God exists anyway?

Is it not incongruous to demand tangible evidence for metaphysical assertions?

Science cannot comment on the existence of God nor disprove it. Still, it seems science that is observable, testable, and repeatable tends to point in the direction of a transcendent being who is the prime mover for the universe. Why? Unimaginably complex design and order. Why does the universe do what it does? Consistently and predictably. Science can answer the how not the why.

It is also not logically inconsistent for something to be entirely self-sufficient or self-sustaining (re: if God made everything, who made God?).

If there is no God, no absolutes, then there is anarchy and chaos, from a moral perspective that is. Consensus does not matter because I could negate your consensus with mine, so it's a dead end road. Curious how we still all generally have, as humans, even over the annuls of time, the same basic moral "conscience."

At any rate, Dave was correct. It seems that, here, anyway, we can only criticize the validity of an argument. To me, it's not that I explain the evidence with God, it seems that the evidence demands the existence of God.

 

[jreelawg]

It seams few people stay logical when they have a belief to defend, or a bone to pick.

I agree that terms need to be defined, especially the term God, before you can make logical arguments about the term.

Here is the apple definition of the word God.

God |gäd|
noun
1 [without article ] (in Christianity and other monotheistic religions) the creator and ruler of the universe and source of all moral authority; the supreme being.
2 ( god) (in certain other religions) a superhuman being or spirit worshiped as having power over nature or human fortunes; a deity : a moon god | an incarnation of the god Vishnu.
• an image, idol, animal, or other object worshiped as divine or symbolizing a god.
• used as a conventional personification of fate : he dialed the number and, the gods relenting, got through at once.
3 ( god) an adored, admired, or influential person : he has little time for the fashion victims for whom he is a god.
• a thing accorded the supreme importance appropriate to a god : don't make money your god.
4 ( the gods) informal the gallery in a theater.
• the people sitting in this area.

If I choose, 3, would you believe they exist. Do images or idols, or animals get worshiped by some? Even if you choose 1 (about monotheistic religions), there is a whole lot left undefined, much of which is probably hardly agreed upon.

 

[physlover1]

you all wrong
god is allah who creat this universe
who creat us
all of you are Physicist
and Physicists are known as intelligent
so let's think about it
who creat you?
who Who raised the sky?
Who gave you the mind and please you than the other creatures?
Of course the answer is allah
Not then understand?
just think about it and don't be crazy
I swear that none of you don't feel comfortable in your religion
try to say it I bear witness that no god but Allah and that Muhammad is the Messenger of God and you will see what will happen?
-------------
i hope that no one get angry with me
I speak quietly and i just wish to all of you goodness

 

[cronxeh]

you all wrong
god is allah who creat this universe
who creat us
all of you are Physicist
and Physicists are known as intelligent
so let's think about it
who creat you?
who Who raised the sky?
Who gave you the mind and please you than the other creatures?
Of course the answer is allah
Not then understand?
just think about it and don't be crazy
I swear that none of you don't feel comfortable in your religion
try to say it I bear witness that no god but Allah and that Muhammad is the Messenger of God and you will see what will happen?
-------------
i hope that no one get angry with me
I speak quietly and i just wish to all of you goodness

I am very comfortable being an Atheist, because I honestly and with every fiber of my being believe that 90%+ of the population on this planet suffer from one or another form of delusion, mass hysteria and conversion disorder known as religion. They've created this social construct known as 'god' because they feel compelled to fill in the void in their own empty pathetic lives, they are incapable of enjoying what they have and their inner greed reaches out beyond the void.

 

[physlover1]

I am very comfortable being an Atheist, because I honestly and with every fiber of my being believe that 90%+ of the population on this planet suffer from one or another form of delusion, mass hysteria and conversion disorder known as religion. They've created this social construct known as 'god' because they feel compelled to fill in the void in their own empty pathetic lives, they are incapable of enjoying what they have and their inner greed reaches out beyond the void.

we aren't compelled
i want to ask you a Question
What do you believe in?
who creat you human
or you came out of nowhere
let's discuss this a bit and see who will win
i will not Impose you in any thing
i just want you to To think carefully and mind

 

[cronxeh]

we aren't compelled
i want to ask you a Question
What do you believe in?
who creat you human
or you came out of nowhere
let's discuss this a bit and see who will win
i will not Impose you in any thing
i just want you to To think carefully and mind

My parents created me. Perhaps there was alcohol involved, I don't know.

 

[DaveC426913]

i want to ask you a Question
What do you believe in?

That is an excellent, excellent question.

And it is a perfect debate ender.

Beliefs do not need to be defended and they do not need to be challenged and they do not need to be forced onto others. They are personal and private.

You believe what you believe and I believe what I believe. Is there a reason why we need to be at odds over it?

 

[physlover1]

My parents created me. Perhaps there was alcohol involved, I don't know.

good i will tell you who created your parents?
you will tell me my grandfather and grand mother
if We continue with this approach
We will get in the end to Adam
so The question is who the creation of Adam?

 

[physlover1]

That is an excellent, excellent question.

And it is a perfect debate ender.

Beliefs do not need to be defended and they do not need to be challenged and they do not need to be forced onto others. They are personal and private.

You believe what you believe and I believe what I believe. Is there a reason why we need to be at odds over it?

I respect your words my friend
but i don't Forced anyone i just Discuss the issue might be one understand what I'm saying and thinking about it Naturally occurring and well-

 

[DaveC426913]

good i will tell you who created your parents?
you will tell me my grandfather and grand mother
if We continue with this approach
We will get in the end to Adam
so The question is who the creation of Adam?

OK, well I tried. Countdown to thread-locking commencing. 10...

Adam is an allegory, not a real person. We have evdence that shows this.

We were created from proto-primates that were created from ancient mammals that were created from one-celled organisms that were created from enzymes that were ultimately self-forming by the very nature of organic chemistry.

 

[cronxeh]

good i will tell you who created your parents?
you will tell me my grandfather and grand mother
if We continue with this approach
We will get in the end to Adam
so The question is who the creation of Adam?

This is where your delusion kicks in. You read a novel and you take it to be non-fiction, but it is yet another social construct. The real question is, what is it that makes you seek this comfort of heaven and hell, pleasing the alpha male like god in order to get his favors? Are you a weak man? Are you, perhaps, nothing without your precious religion?

 

[DaveC426913]

but i don't Forced anyone i just Discuss the issue

Then you might not want to start off with "you all wrong".

...9...

 

[physlover1]

This is where your delusion kicks in. You read a novel and you take it to be non-fiction, but it is yet another social construct. The real question is, what is it that makes you seek this comfort of heaven and hell, pleasing the alpha male like god in order to get his favors? Are you a weak man? Are you, perhaps, nothing without your precious religion?

this is not delusion
and why you looking at it as a weak man?!
this is not weak
allah creat us and he Deserve Worship
and you don't do that for nothing
he will Rewards you by Admits you to Heaven
Minimum is no thing but the Afterlife is Immortality

 

[cronxeh]

this is not delusion
and why you looking at it as a weak man?!
this is not weak
allah creat us and he Deserve Worship
and you don't do that for nothing
he will Rewards you by Admits you to Heaven
Minimum is no thing but the Afterlife is Immortality

Your greed for more than what you have or deserve is the reason for my contempt for religion.

 

[physlover1]

Then you might not want to start off with "you all wrong".

...9...

ok I'm sorry about that
but why do you want to close the topic?
we are Talking quietly don't Affect

 

[physlover1]

Your greed for more than what you have or deserve is the reason for my contempt for religion.

where is that greed?
you do what you have to do and allah Rewards that for you

 

[DaveC426913]

ok I'm sorry about that
but why do you want to close the topic?
we are Talking quietly don't Affect

This is a science forum. There are places to discuss religious beliefs, this is not one of them. Here's why:

When you make a statement like this: "allah creat us and he Deserve Worship" you must back it up, or you must retract it.

It specifically violates PF rules:

Discussions that assert the a priori truth or falsity of religious dogmas and belief systems, or value judgments stemming from such religious belief systems, will not be tolerated.

Your statements presume Allah to exist. We do not accept that until you show us logically that it is so. None of your following statements (for example: "...allah Rewards that for you...") can be made at all until you prove that first case.

...8...

 

[cronxeh]

where is that greed?
you do what you have to do and allah Rewards that for you

Wrong. You do these things because you expect a reward. Billions of dollars in the hands of the Church, the land they occupy, the agenda they spread, the taxes they don't pay, and the influence both political and international, scandals, manipulations, and ultimately greed that they spread is the definition of 'evil' on this planet.

The extremists and other primates running around with their own socio-political agenda are also motivated by greed for more attention, for recognition, and as of late for the opportunity to keep breathing and spelunking in Afghanistan.

Please get a clue, its not so complicated.

 

[DaveC426913]

Wrong. You do these things because you expect a reward. Billions of dollars in the hands of the Church, the land they occupy, the agenda they spread, the taxes they don't pay, and the influence both political and international, scandals, manipulations, and ultimately greed that they spread is the definition of 'evil' on this planet.

Personally I think, rather than debunking PhysLover1's claims, you are validating them. If you simply counter his personal beliefs with your own, then you are implicitly granting that it is an even playing field, where - supposedly - both sides have a right to their beliefs.

Remove the personal stances, stick with the logic of debate. This is the "high road" of the Scientific Method, and it is the playing field where PhysLover1 will not be able to sneak his beliefs in.

 

[cronxeh]

Personally I think, rather than debunking PhysLover1's claims, you are validating them. If you simply counter his personal beliefs with your own, then you are implicitly granting that it is an even playing field, where - supposedly - both sides have a right to their beliefs.

Remove the personal stances, stick with the logic of debate. This is the "high road" of the Scientific Method, and it is the playing field where PhysLover1 will not be able to sneak his beliefs in.

That is the problem with religion. It is so cleverly evolved a social construct, it keeps changing and ignoring prior assertions, like a virus. Its hard to avoid, its hard to get rid of and it just infects other ideas like a parasite. There is no way to apply logic against it, no way to reason with it. You just have to be the immovable object against this irresistable force.

 

[physlover1]

i will come back to reply tonight
i have work now
ok see you
---------
anyway
it was nice to talk with you

 

[DaveC426913]

That is the problem with religion. It is so cleverly evolved a social construct, it keeps changing and ignoring prior assertions, like a virus. Its hard to avoid, its hard to get rid of and it just infects other ideas like a parasite. There is no way to apply logic against it, no way to reason with it. You just have to be the immovable object against this irresistable force.

That is not a problem with religion; that is simply a problem with any discussion that revolves around personal beliefs if they are not made in the framework of logical analysis.

The way to prevail in a discussion about personal beliefs is to not reduce yourself to the level of your opponent (or below). When use subjective, emotional judgements like 'virus' and 'parasite', you shoot yourself in the foot. you are paving the way for an invective exchange. PhysLover1 is winning his argument with you because you are effectively losing your temper. Which of the two of you is more sure of himself?

 

[cronxeh]

That is not a problem with religion; that is simply a problem with any discussion that revolves around personal beliefs if they are not made in the framework of logical analysis.

The way to prevail in a discussion about personal beliefs is to not reduce yourself to the level of your opponent (or below). When use subjective, emotional judgements like 'virus' and 'parasite', you shoot yourself in the foot. you are paving the way for an invective exchange. PhysLover1 is winning his argument with you because you are effectively losing your temper. Which of the two of you is more sure of himself?

Yea he is sure of himself for a delusional person. I am pretty calm and collected, and my colour and range of vocabulary words that describe my feelings against religion are what I would call the 'depth' certain wussy Atheists lack.

 

[DaveC426913]

Yea he is sure of himself for a delusional person. I am pretty calm and collected, and my colour and range of vocabulary words that describe my feelings against religion are what I would call the 'depth' certain wussy Atheists lack.

:sigh: OK well then from where I'm standing your worldview reads as subjectively as his. Two sides of the same coin, both equal weight. Except that he's not resorting to insults.

 

[disregardthat]

Yea he is sure of himself for a delusional person. I am pretty calm and collected, and my colour and range of vocabulary words that describe my feelings against religion are what I would call the 'depth' certain wussy Atheists lack.

As an atheist wuss I am hurt by your comment about my lack of the depth which you seem to possess.

 

[cronxeh]

DaveC: good, you finally see my point. Delusions are cured by sine-wave to the temples, not a logical discussion of the pink bunny rabbit not being real.

Jarle: oh YEA?! That retort lacked depth, to be honest

 

[DaveC426913]

DaveC: good, you finally see my point. Delusions are cured by sine-wave to the temples, not a logical discussion of the pink bunny rabbit not being real.

But you too are under a delusion (your subjective beliefs that you are using to refute PhysLover's subjective beliefs). Should I take your advice and zap your brain?

 

[cronxeh]

But you too are under a delusion. Should I take your advice and zap your brain?

Only from the relationships I can't seem to shake

 

[DaveC426913]

Only from the relationships I can't seem to shake

No, you offer your beliefs of the world that you can't logically back up. Exactly what PhysLover did.

 

[leroyjenkens]

you all wrong
god is allah who creat this universe
who creat us
all of you are Physicist
and Physicists are known as intelligent
so let's think about it
who creat you?
who Who raised the sky?
Who gave you the mind and please you than the other creatures?
Of course the answer is allah
Not then understand?
just think about it and don't be crazy
I swear that none of you don't feel comfortable in your religion
try to say it I bear witness that no god but Allah and that Muhammad is the Messenger of God and you will see what will happen?
-------------
i hope that no one get angry with me
I speak quietly and i just wish to all of you goodness

I'm convinced.

 

[fluidistic]

I've browsed a bit through this interesting discussion. I particularly liked the sentence of Jarle

The common notion of God is a transcendent entity. God is in some way outside the material world, not affected by the material causality.

. This would imply, I believe - and you can show me wrong of course - that nobody can observe directly God. In other words, nobody can get an evidence of its existence. Not only people, but the universe itself cannot be affected by something outside the material world.
Thus God cannot interact with our universe (which is, by some definitions I believe, is defined as "all that exist" or "all that physically exist") if it exists.
So this sentence implies that believing in God is made by faith and not evidence of its existence.
Now it remains to prove -or show- that God cannot indeed be affected by the material causality (To repeat what Aristotle or another Greek I can't remember the name of at the moment :"then why would we call him God if he isn't omnipotent?"). I don't think we can show it, so believing in this sentence is somehow also faith... But I have this kind of faith since I'm atheist.

Edit: So my mind thinks like that: God isn't included in our universe, cannot interact with it, etc. Since the universe is all that exist, God doesn't exist. Of course this is very simple and obviously erroneous in some part(s) but I have this kind of faith. I'm atheist and this is in what I believe at the moment.

 

[physlover1]

dave
what is your religion?

 

[cronxeh]

This is all rhetoric; it is your opinion. It doesn't have a place in an analytical discussion - well, except to benefit your opponent by validating that his personal opinion is all he needs to state as well.


A kid has a hissy fit in your sandbox. Do you have a hissy fit back at him, and does that show him he's wrong? No, you say 'Hey, knock that off. You got a problem, use your words.' You show someone the error of their ways by rising above the issue.

Unless all you want is a tit-for-tat. In which case, more power to ya.

I can't believe I'm actually tutoring you on this...

I already told you, word for word, that you can not use logic/philosophy/reason to argue religion. End of discussion.