Is Perpetual Motion Truly Impossible or Simply Misunderstood?

[Antonio Lao]

Spontaneity is the same as being free. Free to come into being. Free to act. Free from any coercion. Free to choose. Free to say. Free to move in any selected direction. Free to exist. When nature's freedom is threaten then nature will stop to exist. But nature always counter this threat with its inherent principles of conservation laws (energy, linear momentum, angular, momentum, baryon number, lepton number, CPT theorem, etc.).

 

[Antonio Lao]

The act of measurement is a threat to nature's freedom. Nature counters this threat with its Heisenberg's uncertainty of position and linear momentum and Einstein's uncertainty of energy and time.

 

[Epsilon Pi]

EE uses complex numbers as its "bread and butter" tool, and specially for that remarkable property they have to convert differential equations into "simple" algebraic equations; and of course they are suitable for the analysis of generalized periodic functions, by means of Fourier theorem, in the so-called Sygnal Analysis in the frequency domain, where we find too, the two kinds of symmetry: even and odd.
Sometimes it has been said that QM is so difficult to grasp for the human mind because it violates our intuition, so in a certain sense this could be applied to EE, so I don't think it is the point.
I have been wondering since a long time ago if the difficulty does not lie in the fact that complex numbers have not been taken seriously to represent physical reality at those basic levels of QM? In fact it started with the Schrodinger wave equation, but is it not true that road was abandoned, in that moment the aim was put to explain the behavior not of the electron or Fermions that seem to have associated a non conservative field, but the bosons, that in a certain sense have associated a conservative field, such as those asociated with electric charges and gravitation.
Are we not explaining the whole by the part? Is not this a tendency of our need to make closed systems, so we can control and predict, and aspire so to a nobel prize?

Regards

EP

Thanks. I am not aware of this. Is this a math concept in need of a physical meaning?
I learned that complex number system always implies rotational transformation and suitable for the analysis of generalized periodic functions and Euler's relation also connects the trig functions to the exponential function.

What I am trying to understand is the physical meaning of $i = - \frac{1}{i}$ whose square is -1 = -1.

The algebra that I am developing to which I named them as H+ and H- has no identity and hence no inverse in multiplication operation although it's always commutatitve. Because of these, it does not satisfy all the group properties. It is more like a ring except for a scalar factor of integers.

 

[Epsilon Pi]

Square root of minus one is just a symbol to separate two different orders of reality so that we do not sum apples and pearls: it is that symbol the one that establishes the rules with complex numbers; it is that symbol the one that makes it possible the rationalization of duality.
Regards
EP

What I am trying to understand is the physical meaning of $i = - \frac{1}{i}$ whose square is -1 = -1.

 

[LENIN]

I don't believe you understood corectly. The demon is not actualy a creture in the case I have found it is for instence a magnetic field. I would really advice you to look it up. https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=28623&page=4&pp=15

But any way I don't really believe it works becouse there probably is a lose of electrons somwher in the process

 

[Antonio Lao]

The demon is not actualy a creture

I agree. The demon is really any scientific theory that attempts to break the natural laws of the universe. For example, travel forward or backward in time, perpetual motion machine, heat flow from low temperature to high temperature, etc.

 

[mapper]

Doesnt a black hole gobble up everything basically acting as a self maintaining collector of mass and energy. How long does a black hole exist from point of formation? Couldnt something like that be considered perpetual motion if it can keep adding to itself and sustain itself?

 

[Antonio Lao]

I have found it is for instence a magnetic field

In quantum vacuum, the ratio of electric field to magnetic field is the speed of light.

$$c=\frac{E}{B}$$

If B is slightly greater than E then mass is created and the ratio is less than light speed. If B is slightly less than E then space expands and the ratio is greater than light speed.

 

[Antonio Lao]

Doesnt a black hole gobble up everything basically acting as a self maintaining collector of mass and energy.

A black hole is the result of an exploding star if its mass before the explosion met certain conditions. It is the original star that gobble matter by way thru the accretion disc for some binary stellar systems.

After a black hole is formed, it creates an event horizon which curved the surrounding spacetime structure for more falling matter and energy. But Hawking radiation prevent complete domination by the black hole on its vicinity of influence.

 

[Epsilon Pi]

Hi Antonio and others,

A physical meaning of i.i = -1?
If we take i, as a symbol for differentiating two different orders of reality, then we have:
- on the one hand an axis affected by i, and
- on the other an axis 90 degrees apart, not affected by i
or else we have the complex plane, where multiplication and division(differentiation and integration) can be interpreted as a rotation of 90 degrees. The complex plane can be taken then as the canvas where the dynamic complexity of the real can be represented.
Is this not a physical meaning?
Regards
EP

What I am trying to understand is the physical meaning of $i = - \frac{1}{i}$ whose square is -1 = -1.

 

[Antonio Lao]

Epsilon Pi,

Thanks. The physical reality of complex numbers seems to indicate the fundamental reality of orthogonal axes.

 

[grabateetrap]

Perpetual motion...
This reminds me of life because if energy weren't given up, then things couldn't
grow and evolve. The cold heart of the Earth, that steals your breath in the
night, gives up it's own breath to the hope of the future. Nothing in this place
is ever lost... THAT IS PERPETUAL MOTION

 

[Epsilon Pi]

The third included?

Yes, you are quite right, in fact, is not life an open dynamic system, continually exchanging with the environment, so that "extra" -that seems to violate that second law of thermodynamics- that makes it possible to conceive a whole greater than the sum of its parts, comes precisely from that "perpetual" interchange?
Did you know that there is a mainstream in biology that is now using that triadic framework introduced by that great north american philosopher Charles Pierce?
I was wondering if this has not to do with that same need I have felt to understand and comprehend, not just the closed systems of normal science, but those open systems of reality "out there"?
Is not a triadic symbolism a symbolism in which the third is included? Don't we have in Euler relation that third included in that radical duality it represents?
Just some thoughts regarding the third included
Regards
EP
PD: Is not the inclusion of the third another point of view different from the now prevailing in modern physics or in normal science?

Perpetual motion...
This reminds me of life because if energy weren't given up, then things couldn't
grow and evolve. The cold heart of the Earth, that steals your breath in the
night, gives up it's own breath to the hope of the future. Nothing in this place
is ever lost... THAT IS PERPETUAL MOTION

 

[kurious]

Perpetual motion occurs all the time.
According to Newton a mass will keep moving at the same speed
unless it is disturbed by a force.
I could explain why but my explanation might be too "interesting" for the mentors
on theory development!

 

[cronxeh]

a body in motion will stay in motion unless an external force is acting upon it

in real world this translates into friction slowing down your car the (friction = coeff of friction * mass * acceleration due to gravity)

now if you start thinking of Newton's law of motion in terms of general relativity and whole universe, you might get ahead of yourself and invest some new hypothesis which won't be based on any experimental data. you are probably thinking of suggesting that the universe itself is like a spongy membrane that is in motion in multiple dimensions with several dimensions for time. it could make for a great sci fi movie (even Men in Black did a great ending playing with universe in a form of little balls)

 

[Antonio Lao]

a body in motion will stay in motion unless an external force is acting upon it

Is this part of Newton's 1st law of motion? If it is then it is constant motion as that of constant velocity. Accelerated motion exist when there is a force.

But the modern view of spacetime's curvature does not clearly describe how this constant velocity can be achieved by objects other than photons.

 

[bino]

do you think there may be perpetual motion in magnets? no energy is put into the magnet and yet it does work by sticking onto the side of the fridge.

 

[Chronos]

Try to avoid a classical view point. Intuition is not reality. You guys are stuck on a classical perspective that just does not work and does not explain observation. Loren, you know better. Science is hard. You understand the fundamentals, in my opinion. I think you should let go of the philosophical issues and return to the scientific part.

 

[Antonio Lao]

You guys are stuck on a classical perspective that just does not work and does not explain observation.

But it is said by the Feynman's version of quantum mechanics that the process of sum over all histories of probabilistic paths: the classical path is the most probable. This is when and where the action integral is the least and the Lagrangian (difference of kinetic and potential energy) is practically zero.

 

[Antonio Lao]

Furthermore, path can only be defined classically. In QM, path (of an electron) has no meaning as in the problem of trying to understand why there are quantum jumps between energy levels.

 

[pallidin]

Having absolutely no shred of evidence even close to the idea of perpetual motion, this has, apparently, not deterred it's adherants.
Having seen nothing in nature they say, "well, maybe it is so"
Having no experiment to prove it they yet say, "it can happen"
Having nothing to go further on, they then say "you don't understand my theory"
When challenged to produce facts, they say "it can not be done now, or, there is not enough money, or..."
If you would nail them down to describe a qualitative experiment in support of their idea, they fall silent.

 

[Antonio Lao]

Having absolutely no shred of evidence even close to the idea of perpetual motion

One of the mathematical evidences for PM can be found by using a periodic function as an example. The frequency (f) is defined as the inverse of the period (T).

$$f=\frac{1}{T}$$

as T approaches infinity, f approaches zero and vice versa. Note that frequency always exist and it even increase almost without bound as the period approaches the limit of zero time.

 

[PRyckman]

D=(c-v)t note that velocity is directional, and this represents space in the line ahead of the path

 

[bino]

do you think there may be perpetual motion in magnets? no energy is put into the magnet and yet it does work by sticking onto the side of the fridge.

 

[Antonio Lao]

do you think there may be perpetual motion in magnets? no energy is put into the magnet and yet it does work by sticking onto the side of the fridge.

In current modern physics, the existence of magnetic field is due to the motion (PM?) of charged particles. But there are now at least three different kinds of charges: the electric charge, the weak charge, the strong or color charge. The motion of all these charges create its respective kind of magnetism, electric magnetism, weak magnetism, and color magnetism. The magnetism that caused fridge sticking might be just electric or combination of all three types.

Regardless of the type or kind of magnetism responsible for fridge sticking, the interaction forces are very much larger than the force from the surrounding gravitational field.

The mystery behind the explanation of charge to mass ratio remains. What is the independent meaning of charge or of mass? This still is not fully clarified in physics.

 

[mapper]

If string theory were proven to be true and that everything that exists is made up of uber tiny small vibrating strings, wouldn't they be PMotion? Or wouldn't that be proof that Pmotion exists in nature? Do these strings stop moving at absolute zero?

 

[bino]

so do you think that someone might be able to construct a pmm useing magnets?

 

[bino]

the Earth's motion around the sun is perpetual motion.

 

[enigma]

Different kind of perpetual motion, bino.

Earth's motion about the Sun is continuous. You're not taking any energy out or putting any energy in.

PPMs supposedly get more energy out than you put in: An impossibility according to the first law of thermodynamics.

 

[russ_watters]

so do you think that someone might be able to construct a pmm useing magnets?

No, it isn't possible.

 

[mapper]

Earth's motion about the Sun is continuous. You're not taking any energy out or putting any energy in.

On the basis of how tethers work, couldn't you construct a large enough tether from a point on Earth reaching out to space. The energy output would be great and would last as long as our sun would burn or until the materials of the tether break apart from the stress. Although far from perpetual cause our sun has a finite life but still...

Could it even be possible to create such a device and how much energy could it generate if one could build it?

 

[Epsilon Pi]

Why are you so sure of what is or is not possible? When I see, some good physicists or mechanical engineers, making such a sort of dogmatic assertion, I think immediatly, the contrary must be true.

Some good physicists, too, are now thinking so seriously about ZPE, which certainly could be thought as sort of PMM, or a way to use that energy stored in that inherent magnetic field of the electrons that permeates all space...

Will it be possible? Nobody knows...most of our science, is so influenced by that second law and closed systems, that it really has paid so little attention to physical open dynamic systems; we really do not know what we will happen in the future, when they do.
Regards
EP

No, it isn't possible.

 

[Antonio Lao]

In discussing perpetual motion machine, it is really necessary to clarify how energy is involved. There are two ways that energy can specify the type of PMM.

1. Energy production - continuous production of energy by the machine.

2.. Energy transformation - continuous storage and redistribution or conversion to other forms of energy.

In electrical circuitry, the example of the 1st type are called active elements such as batteries or voltage source. Examples of the 2nd type are called passive elements such as resistors, capacitors and inductors.

 

[bino]

Different kind of perpetual motion, bino.

Earth's motion about the Sun is continuous. You're not taking any energy out or putting any energy in.

PPMs supposedly get more energy out than you put in: An impossibility according to the first law of thermodynamics.

in some hair brained attempt by someone could we take a whole lot of wire wrap it around the moons path around Earth or around the path of Earth around the sun. then we would get energy from the Earth magnetic field. it would be like a giant generator.

 

[mapper]

^ yes, i agree we can get better at converting energy from what we do today, but I am still having a hard time with something that lasts perpetually. Perpetually is the problem, it may last a long time, but that’s not forever. our moon orbit, Earth orbit won't last for an infinite amount of time. Eventually the sun will burn out.. perpetually doesn’t exist here, but where I am coming from is that even at a state of absolute zero atoms and whatnot are still moving ever so slightly. What gives them their energy to continue? string theory? are strings perpetual motion? ...if to be proven to exist...

what moves the strings... is there always an infinite problem? like the chicken or the egg scenario, what comes first and does something even need to come first? Or is our universe and the laws of physics as we know them also evolve? Making it so its near imposible to trace back what was or could be.

If there is something that causes the string to vibrate to create the molecules, to which particles and atoms, that make everything up in our universe? What makes the stings to do that. Is god still playin dice, but at now even a much smaller scale then quantum Mechs.? How small and giant scale can we even perceive? After all we have infinite to work with..


ive seen a thread on here about whether nothingness exists, which got me thinking... does infinite exist? If it does that has to be perpetual motion now wouldn't it... think about it for a moment...