Is Poker Morally Acceptable for a Christian?

[Physics_wiz]

ek, just do a google search for "card counting poker" and you'll find plenty of tutorials. Here is an example:

http://pokermag.com/ManageArticle.asp?C=60&A=6587

You can count the EXACT probability of getting each card in texas holdem or omaha. You don't need to count cards and I don't even know how you would do it. Unlike blackjack, high cards vs. low cards isn't a big deal in holdem because all you need to know is the prob. a certain card will come up and there's a very easy shortcut to do that in your head (it doesn't give the exact probability, but a close enough estimate).
dduardo, if you've played holdem before please give a simple example. It will make stuff so much easier.

One thing I'd like to know about playing online though is what percentage of people use software to calculate the odds for them and play based on odds alone.

When I first started, I made my own small program that calculates the probability of a "good" card showing up given how many good cards are left in the deck. It then plugs that into a formula given the pot size and outputs the max. bet I can call and be getting paid off (kindda like the 3 balls game). I used only this for a while to make decisions when I'm drawing and it turned out to be pretty successful. Now I learned a few shortcuts to do all that stuff in my head (pretty easy once you know the shortcuts) and I don't just go by the odds...there are other factors too that I didn't account for when first playing. BTW, do you think there's anything wrong with using a software that tells you the odds? It doesn't break the rules of the game and it's not a cheating program since it doesn't reveal any info you shouldn't be knowing. It's just a faster way to calculate stuff, but once you know the shortcuts you don't need it.

And who cares about people that use odds calculators. If you need an odds calculator in the first place you're going to lose money whether you use it or not, simple as that.

You're kidding right? All the calculator does is calculate stuff you can calculate in your head (using shortcuts) a few seconds faster. I don't see why it's so bad. BTW ek, just curious...what limits do you play?

 

[Pengwuino]

You can't count cards in poker. You don't even play, how the hell would you know?

What he's trying to say is that if you know 3 people playing at a table, you can have 1 person be the actual player and the 3 otehr people are relaying what there cards were to you. With that, the 1 person who was chosen to really play will know what 6 other cards in the deck were actually played. This doesn't really help you out a whole lot, but there are definately situations that it can help. For example, if you draw two 7's, its rather tricky to konw whether to go at it or not in texas hold em (especially no limit). Theres seven cards out there that in pairs, are higher then your pair of 7's. What your really hoping for (especially if 2 or 3 people stay in the pot with you) is a third seven to pop up to give you a good three of a kind. Now, if you have access to six more cards because of your friends and 2 of them happen to have crumby hands that include 7's, your most likely going to fold because now there's no way you will be able to make that three of a kind since the other two 7's are being thrown out by your friends.

This of course, is for online play. In a real casino, its much harder and you have cameras looken at everything you do. At the casino i play it, they have 2 cameras per table in the room.

 

[ek]

You're kidding right? All the calculator does is calculate stuff you can calculate in your head (using shortcuts) a few seconds faster. I don't see why it's so bad. BTW ek, just curious...what limits do you play?

Not being able to do the calculations is a reflection of your skill in general. Good players do not need any odds calculator. And good players are the only ones making money. And odds calculators are not faster, they are actually a brutal time waster. I usually play between 5-10 tables at a time depending on the site. There is no way in hell I could do that if I was using some newbie odds calculator.

I play NL25 and NL50. As well as .5/1 Stud.

 

[ek]

What he's trying to say is that if you know 3 people playing at a table, you can have 1 person be the actual player and the 3 otehr people are relaying what there cards were to you. With that, the 1 person who was chosen to really play will know what 6 other cards in the deck were actually played. This doesn't really help you out a whole lot, but there are definately situations that it can help. For example, if you draw two 7's, its rather tricky to konw whether to go at it or not in texas hold em (especially no limit). Theres seven cards out there that in pairs, are higher then your pair of 7's. What your really hoping for (especially if 2 or 3 people stay in the pot with you) is a third seven to pop up to give you a good three of a kind. Now, if you have access to six more cards because of your friends and 2 of them happen to have crumby hands that include 7's, your most likely going to fold because now there's no way you will be able to make that three of a kind since the other two 7's are being thrown out by your friends.

That is definitely not worth the trouble.

As for the play of 77. Flop or drop. Call for cheap, see a flop, if it doesn't come 7xx you're done with the hand. No cheating needed. What does knowing that your buddy folded a 7 do for you? Save you a quarter, 50 cents, a dollar maybe? Is that worth getting your whole bankroll frozen and ceased when you're busted for collusion? I think not.

 

[Pengwuino]

Oh well I am not saying its a useful tactic. I am just explaining to how its actually possible to do a psuedo-card count.

actually, it may be useful! If you hold pocket J's or Q's and the flop has an A and a K, it'll be extremely helpful to know if your friends folded one of those A's or K's as a potential bluff from another person at the table becomes less likely to be the real deal. Of course, yes, like you said, its cheating, its not worth it... it never is.

I was at the casino.. thursday... man, I played blackjack with $100 and i won $100 after a few hours. Swear to god though, scared me good when one of the security guards came over with just me and this other guy playen and stood around for about 10 minutes (and no, I don't count... i have trouble counting up my cards quickly so memorizing high-low is beyond me right now haha). I also felt like i was being followed when i left... never looked back to see however so i dunno... i think i was just getting those weird feelings you get when you actually do take some money from the casino.

 

[Physics_wiz]

Not being able to do the calculations is a reflection of your skill in general. Good players do not need any odds calculator.

So, you can divide 5/47, 6/47, 4/47, etc...in your head right? Do you actually divide them in your head or you learned a few extremely easy shortcuts to calculate close estimates? When I started I made that program because it was deffinately faster than dividing 4/47 in my head then figuring out if I can make a profitable call or not. That doesn't mean that I was a bad player...now I can do them in my head, but I wouldn't have figured out the shortcuts if I didn't read about them somewhere. Actually, a 3rd grader who's just learning multiplication and addition can do the calculations in his head using a few easy tricks...does that mean he's good at poker?

And good players are the only ones making money.

Well I've played about 20k hands so far and I beat the game for about 5BB/100 hands. If I can't do the calculations in my head I'm a bad player, right? If I'm a bad player I won't be making money...eh? Something seems wrong...maybe doing the calculations in your head isn't a reflection of one's skill after all.

 

[Pengwuino]

$5 was the big blind? What was the small blind? $3?

 

[Physics_wiz]

$5 was the big blind? What was the small blind? $3?

You talking about the 5BB/100 hands? BB stands for big bets ($.5 or $1)
I played in both .25/.50 and .5/1 limit tables. The first number is the small bet (also the big blind). The second number is the big bet. To get the small blind, just divide the small bet by 2 (sometimes it's a little different depending on the site). I know these are pretty low stakes but I still managed to make a few hundred in them.

 

[Pengwuino]

Oh pff, I am getting blinds and bets confused. So you play with $.25 and $.5 small/big blinds... with $.5/$1 bets... ok ok i get it haha.

I play $1/$2 blinds, $2/$4 bets.

 

[ek]

So, you can divide 5/47, 6/47, 4/47, etc...in your head right? Do you actually divide them in your head or you learned a few extremely easy shortcuts to calculate close estimates?

I tend not to draw to four and five outers.

But those odds can be approximated to 8.5:1, 7:1 and 11:1.

 

[gravenewworld]

Let's start a physics forums room on partypoker.com. It will be for fun only. My sn is gravnewwworld

 

[Pengwuino]

Let's start a physics forums room on partypoker.com. It will be for fun only. My sn is gravnewwworld

awesome, meet you there. sn is Veto1024

 

[Physics_wiz]

I tend not to draw to four and five outers.

But those odds can be approximated to 8.5:1, 7:1 and 11:1.

Ok so you have them memorized...when I started I didn't have them memorized and I actually calculated them every time. Now I have them memorized but that doesn't mean that I was a "bad player" when I was actually calculating every hand. A bad player is one who doesn't know the odds, not one who uses a calculator to calculate them every hand.

 

[Pengwuino]

Hey i was wondering something...

What is that thing the dealers have on the right hand side where htey stack chips every-so-often.

I always see them put a chip there but i also see them drop chips into a bucket-type thing under the table that has a slot for the coins on the table.

 

[gravenewworld]

I think you are referring to the money the house takes out of a pot. That is called the rake. The house take a percetage out of the pot. that's how the casinos get their money off of poker. If you sit down at the table and there are only 3 or 4 other players ask the dealer if you can get the rake lowered. Usually the pit boss will lower it if you just ask and there aren't that many players. The dealer also usually has a tip bin. When you get a good hand you are supposed to give the dealer a tip. The dealer puts the tip in the box, then at the end of the night, I assume all the tips are collected and split between all the dealers who worked that table.

 

[Pengwuino]

I don't think so.. I see the dealer take in tips and put them in the rack of chips (odd...). I'll go and ask... maybe that dealer was screwed up haha.

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

ek, just do a google search for "card counting poker" and you'll find plenty of tutorials. Here is an example:

http://pokermag.com/ManageArticle.asp?C=60&A=6587

Maybe there's a mix up in terminology here.
You can't "card count" when the deck is shuffled between hands. Card counting generally refers to what is done in black jack where the cards are drawn straight off the top of the same deck until all of the cards in that deck have been dealt. When this is done you can keep a mantal tally of what cards have been dealt in previous hands and know for a fact that a certain card won't be dealt because it already has been previously. In holdem you can only calculate odds and make an educated guess as to your opponents hole cards by comparing their betting and the cards you can see in play. This isn't generally considered card counting as far as I know.


On the issue of ethics. I don't think there is anything unethical about poker or gambling as long as people aren't being scammed. There is only one instance that I think of that I would consider it unethical. If you're in a casino playing and you can see that someone is throwing away their money at the table when they oughtn't be and you continue to take it then this could be considered unethical, I would consider it so myself. They may be the one making the mistake of doing so but if you can reasonably see what is occurring and continue I would consider it exploitation. Online I can't really see this being much of an issue.

 

[ek]

Ok so you have them memorized.

I don't have them memorized. Arithmetic is my thing. I can do any odds to a good approximation almost instantly.

 

[Physics_wiz]

BTW, anyone know anything about whether online poker is illegal or not? I live in WV...anyone know where I can find like state laws concerning gambling or something?

 

[Moonbear]

BTW, anyone know anything about whether online poker is illegal or not? I live in WV...anyone know where I can find like state laws concerning gambling or something?

Seems betting is illegal there http://www.gambling-law-us.com/State-Laws/West-Virginia/

With the following exceptions:

..except bowls, chess or backgammon, draughts or a licensed game...

Woo hoo, I can look forward to those rousing backgammon tournaments!

That's what you have to look at, not whether it's illegal to set up a gambling establishment/tables, but what the penalties are for placing bets.

Though, in that link I provided, interestingly, if you lose anything more than $10 while gambling in WV, you can sue the winner to get it back because they won it illegally. That's a bit different from other states I've seen that pretty much say you're screwed if you were dumb enough to lose the title to your house while gambling illegally. But, I doubt that will help you much if you are playing online at a site established someplace outside of WV.

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

Ok... I need to visit WV so I can gamble on chess games lol. That and to take Moonie out for dinner ofcourse.

 

[Moonbear]

Ok... I need to visit WV so I can gamble on chess games lol. That and to take Moonie out for dinner ofcourse.

:!) :!)

What are bowls and draughts anyway? It sounds like some old geezers in a nursing home protested the gambling laws with that collection of games.

 

[arildno]

I don't get this:
What's so interesting having poker games over Internet??
It is a lot more fun to be together for real, right?

 

[ek]

Online poker is not legal in the US nor is it illegal. It is not stated explicitly anywhere what the country's policy is.

All of these online poker rooms are offshore so really the US has no jurisdiction anyway.

You do, however, have to pay taxes in the US on online poker winnings. In Canada we do not.

There are certain sites that do not allow Americans or Canadians for one reason or another. For example Americans are not allowed to play at Ladbrokes and Canadians are not allowed to play at Bodog. But all of the major sites are open to everyone legally.

 

[Moonbear]

I found out what bowls is! http://www.tradgames.org.uk/games/Bowls.htm

At least it's not shuffleboard, I guess. I'm trying to figure out where in WV the land would be flat enough to play a game like that. I think I'd be betting on whether the balls would stay on the playing field.

 

[ek]

I don't get this:
What's so interesting having poker games over Internet??
It is a lot more fun to be together for real, right?

It's tough to get 6-10 guys together a lot of the time. Unless you live near a casino or card room, which in my case I don't. If you want to play more than once or twice a week, you pretty much have to play online.

Also if you're starting out you can play much lower stakes online than in a casino/cardroom. The lowest stakes you can find live are usually 1/2NL and 2/4 fixed. Online you can find stakes all the way down to penny/2penny.

Online you can also play more than one table at a time. Like I said earlier, I play up to ten tables at a time. It's a lot faster and more exciting.

Even with all the plusses of online poker, I still prefer playing live. The players are generally worse than online and the whole social aspect of it makes it more enjoyable. I'm lucky right now because I just found a local game with these young rich kids playing .5/1 NL every night. They throw around money like it's nothing. Very profitable.

 

[arildno]

Oh, you were talking about the card game..
Sorry for butting in..

 

[Moonbear]

Online poker is not legal in the US nor is it illegal. It is not stated explicitly anywhere what the country's policy is.

All of these online poker rooms are offshore so really the US has no jurisdiction anyway.

You do, however, have to pay taxes in the US on online poker winnings. In Canada we do not.

There are certain sites that do not allow Americans or Canadians for one reason or another. For example Americans are not allowed to play at Ladbrokes and Canadians are not allowed to play at Bodog. But all of the major sites are open to everyone legally.

In the U.S., gambling laws are determined by the individual states, so what is legal in one state may be illegal in the neighboring state.

I don't get this:
What's so interesting having poker games over Internet??
It is a lot more fun to be together for real, right?

I agree. I don't see the fun in playing online. More of the fun in playing is the face-to-face psychological game...who has the better poker face, who bluffs well, etc. Plus, in a friendly game, it's just something to do while chatting (but then you play for things like peanuts or M&Ms rather than money).

 

[Moonbear]

Oh, you were talking about the card game..
Sorry for butting in..

You're so bad, so very very bad! It's so unfair that you're gay!

 

[arildno]

I agree. I don't see the fun in playing online. More of the fun in playing is the face-to-face psychological game...who has the better poker face, who bluffs well, etc. Plus, in a friendly game, it's just something to do while chatting (but then you play for things like peanuts or M&Ms rather than money).

Yes, I absolutely agree with you, dear..


It's so fun to find out who's got the best poker face..

 

[Physics_wiz]

Ok... I need to visit WV so I can gamble on chess games lol. That and to take Moonie out for dinner ofcourse.

Welcome any time . I haven't been here for long, but I know a few places to go (we have BK and McD's). We can also play some poker for 20 bucks and if we win we just take the money, if we lose we sue the guys who won (thanks to Moonbear for enlightening us to the hidden law that no one knows about).

BTW, I've always wanted to have a pet monkey since I was a little kiddo...does he know any awesome tricks?

 

[Pengwuino]

haha I've been playing 1/2 hold em for the last 3 hours :D

But I've been dealing with this same crap over and over all night. I'll get pocket A's or K's... and the flop will be all suited or make a possible straight immediately. Just now i had pocket A's... and of course, immediately 3 diamonds flop. Well, thankfully i still won

 

[ek]

In the U.S., gambling laws are determined by the individual states, so what is legal in one state may be illegal in the neighboring state.

I know that.

But it still doesn't affect online poker. Offshore is offshore.

Just got home from a five hour game tonight of .5/1 NL. Finished up $247. Go me.

 

[Moonbear]

Welcome any time . I haven't been here for long, but I know a few places to go (we have BK and McD's).

BK and McD's?!

Believe it or not, there are decent restaurants out there. I was at a really nice restaurant on this last trip down (not that I noticed the name...definitely not a place for anyone on a student budget), and there's a decent Indian restaurant somewhere in the downtown area (that's the area where I get hopelessly lost), I've wandered into a pub with typical pub food, there was a brew pub somewhere, but I can't recall if that was near the campus or someplace else...went there on one of my first trips to WV and was really turned around and clueless as to where I was...someone just picked me up at the Pittsburgh airport and transported me everywhere, and I had no idea where I was most of the time I was there.

 

[Physics_wiz]

BK and McD's?!

Believe it or not, there are decent restaurants out there. I was at a really nice restaurant on this last trip down (not that I noticed the name...definitely not a place for anyone on a student budget), and there's a decent Indian restaurant somewhere in the downtown area (that's the area where I get hopelessly lost), I've wandered into a pub with typical pub food, there was a brew pub somewhere, but I can't recall if that was near the campus or someplace else...went there on one of my first trips to WV and was really turned around and clueless as to where I was...someone just picked me up at the Pittsburgh airport and transported me everywhere, and I had no idea where I was most of the time I was there.

It was a joke Moonbear! They do have some pretty nice restaurants around here. I think I've been to one of those "real" http://www.theglasshousegrille.com/]restaurants[/PLAIN] only once in my entire life . It was a school sponsored thing too. Other than that, the best I've been to was the $6 chinese buffet next to walmart.

BTW, where'd you go in WV? I live in Morgantown