Is renting a better option for building a good credit score?

[Superposed_Cat]

I would rather live frugally for years then buy a house rather than party around in an apartment and have to live for your whole life. But then again I don't think I'd like to retire.

 

[edward]

And to me, preferential thoughts toward an unskilled assembly-line and ditchdigger workforce are just misplaced nostalgia. That economy was not better than what we have now. Those jobs were not better than what we have now. Digging ditches by hand sucks and if a person can do it 20x faster today with a backhoe and a little bit of skill in commanding it, that should not be looked down upon, it should be celebrated.

Those unskilled assembly line workers you mention out produced the rest of the world during world war two. They produced over 5,000 Sherman tanks in 1942 alone. Previously a tank had never been produced on an assembly line.

http://www.allpar.com/images/tanks/engine-plant.jpg

So am I being nostalgic or patriotic? Actually proud of American workers would be a better term. For some reason over 60 years later it took two years to provide 2000 up armored Humvees for Iraq with CAD CAM no less.

 

[russ_watters]

Those unskilled assembly line workers you mention out produced the rest of the world during world war two. They produced over 5,000 Sherman tanks in 1942 alone. Previously a tank had never been produced on an assembly line.

http://www.allpar.com/images/tanks/engine-plant.jpg

So am I being nostalgic or patriotic? Actually proud of American workers would be a better term. For some reason over 60 years later it took two years to provide 2000 up armored Humvees for Iraq with CAD CAM no less.

I'm proud of them too, but that has nothing to do with the issue. Being thankful for the hardships they successfully went through does not mean we should want to have to go through them too. Indeed, they went through some of those hardships so we wouldn't have to.

Again; that's misplaced nostalgia you have there.

 

[SixNein]

The Great Recession and aftermath have apparently changed perceptions regarding home ownerhip and financial security.

The New American Dream: It's Not What You Think
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/american-dream-not-think-173054394.html

Usually owning a home means going into debt, i.e., paying a mortgage, for some time, unless one has substantial assets.

Do folks see owning a home or living debt-free as eventualities? Is retirement at 65 to 70 feasible?

I think the perception of the future is muddied by the economic deleveraging seen after the recession. Once the credit market rebounds in full swing, people will start dreaming about those homes again.

 

[edward]

I think the perception of the future is muddied by the economic deleveraging seen after the recession. Once the credit market rebounds in full swing, people will start dreaming about those homes again.

There is plenty of credit available for people who are qualified.

 

[edward]

I'm proud of them too, but that has nothing to do with the issue. Being thankful for the hardships they successfully went through does not mean we should want to have to go through them too. Indeed, they went through some of those hardships so we wouldn't have to.

Again; that's misplaced nostalgia you have there.

No there is no misplaced nostalgia that was just an example of what American workers can do if given the chance. The workers who accomplished so much during past years worked hard and were well paid at the time.

Those same people are now looking at the situation their children and grandchildren are in. The job opportunities are just are not there.

An unskilled assembly line worker does not stay unskilled for long. They typically start training the first day on the job. But the jobs have to be there.

The American dream wasn't killed by the recession it was slowly poisoned by outsourcing.

 

[russ_watters]

No there is no misplaced nostalgia that was just an example of what American workers can do if given the chance.

Well it is a pretty poor example, since they can do much more now than they did then!

Those same people are now looking at the situation their children and grandchildren are in. The job opportunities are just are not there.

The American dream wasn't killed by the recession it was slowly poisoned by outsourcing.

People have been saying for hundreds of years that this or that (usually technology) will cause runaway unemployment. I see no evidence that they will stop being badly wrong. Outsourcing is not a new thing and just 6 years ago - less than 1 economic cycle - unemployment was essentially nonexistent at around 4.5%. And currently unemployment is dropping. Outsourcing is not causing a systemic unemployment problem.

 

[edward]

Well it is a pretty poor example, since they can do much more now than they did then!
People have been saying for hundreds of years that this or that (usually technology) will cause runaway unemployment. I see no evidence that they will stop being badly wrong. Outsourcing is not a new thing and just 6 years ago - less than 1 economic cycle - unemployment was essentially nonexistent at around 4.5%. And currently unemployment is dropping. Outsourcing is not causing a systemic unemployment problem.

Comparing now and then in the context of technology is ludicrous.

I never mentioned unemployment but since you have brought it up I of course was referring to good paying job opportunities with pay that people can actually live on. The unemployment rate doesn't reflect the fact that manufacturing jobs lost to outsourcing were replaced with low paying burger flipper service sector jobs.

Edited.

 

[Vanadium 50]

Edward, I don't think that's supported by the facts.

In 1967, the unemployment rate was about 4%; it's now doubled. However, over the same period, the real income growth of the US median was about 20% - and of the bottom quintile (which includes the unemployed and people at the bottom of the economic ladder) was 19.5%.

You can argue that things are bad now for people in that position, and I don't think I would disagree. But I don't think you can argue that they are worse than in decades past.

 

[russ_watters]

Comparing now and then in the context of technology is ludicrous.

I don't think the two hypotheses are quite equal, it is just that technology is the one that has been spectacularly wrong for the longest. Outsourcing (or related global competition) as a cause of runaway unemployment has "only" been spectacularly wrong for a few decades.

I never mentioned unemployment...

What you said was: "The job opportunities are just are not there." I assumed you meant unemployment, but if you meant pay, you're still wrong:

...but since you have brought it up I of course was referring to good paying job opportunities with pay that people can actually live on. The unemployment rate doesn't reflect the fact that manufacturing jobs lost to outsourcing were replaced with low paying burger flipper service sector jobs.

Still wrong. I've posted this link and stated the basic fact of it dozens of times in the 10 years that PF has been around and I'm sure you've participated in threads where I've posted it (V50's factoid comes from this table): http://www.census.gov/hhes/www/income/data/historical/household/

Every income bracket has seen gains over the past few decades, current cycle notwithstanding.

In other words, by and large, when a job has been lost in the past few decades (minus the past 5 years), the next job created has had a higher pay rate, not a lower pay rate.

 

[edward]

I don't think the two hypotheses are quite equal, it is just that technology is the one that has been spectacularly wrong for the longest. Outsourcing (or related global competition) as a cause of runaway unemployment has "only" been spectacularly wrong for a few decades.

What you said was: "The job opportunities are just are not there." I assumed you meant unemployment, but if you meant pay, you're still wrong:

Still wrong. I've posted this link and stated the basic fact of it dozens of times in the 10 years that PF has been around and I'm sure you've participated in threads where I've posted it (V50's factoid comes from this table): http://www.census.gov/hhes/www/income/data/historical/household/

Every income bracket has seen gains over the past few decades, current cycle notwithstanding.

In other words, by and large, when a job has been lost in the past few decades (minus the past 5 years), the next job created has had a higher pay rate, not a lower pay rate.

The census link is just a jumble of numbers. I am always amazed how reality can get lost in statistics. Here is a simple version.

In 1989, the median American household made $51,681 in current dollars (the 2012 number, again, was $51,017). That means that 24 years ago, a middle class American family was making more than the a middle class family was making one year ago.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs...erican-family-makes-less-than-it-did-in-1989/

The 25,000 Delphi workers who lost their jobs when the company was outsourced to China are not so fortunate. I have friends and family who lost jobs, then retrained and learned technical skills only to have entire factories outsourced.

The vanishing middle class apparently isn't even real to those who have not yet lost their jobs.

The American dream is dead for the majority of America

http://www.forbes.com/sites/jennagoudreau/2011/06/22/disappearing-middle-class-jobs/

 

[edward]

Edward, I don't think that's supported by the facts.

In 1967, the unemployment rate was about 4%; it's now doubled. However, over the same period, the real income growth of the US median was about 20% - and of the bottom quintile (which includes the unemployed and people at the bottom of the economic ladder) was 19.5%.

You can argue that things are bad now for people in that position, and I don't think I would disagree. But I don't think you can argue that they are worse than in decades past.

For me and my age group (73) peers, most of that growth happened before outsourcing started. In 1967 I bought my third home even though I kept the first two. Seriously I have been around a long time. I have worked everything from assembly line jobs to technical writing jobs at Hugh's (Now Raytheon) and Lockheed and I have never seen this number of average American's in such overall financial stress.

That bottom quintile is quite firmly planted exactly where they are.

 

[russ_watters]

The census link is just a jumble of numbers. I am always amazed how reality can get lost in statistics.

It really shouldn't be that difficult to comprehend. The point of showing all of it is you can take any demographic you want and get the same answer. The most general though is household income, which is this one: http://www.census.gov/hhes/www/income/data/historical/household/2012/H03AR_2012.xls

Here is a simple version.

"In 1989, the median American household made $51,681 in current dollars (the 2012 number, again, was $51,017). That means that 24 years ago, a middle class American family was making more than the a middle class family was making one year ago."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs...erican-family-makes-less-than-it-did-in-1989/

They picked a range to illustrate their point that is limited to nearly that exact range. You can easily see from their graph that they picked near the top of one cycle. Ie, 2012 incomes are less than 25 years ago, but not 20 years ago or 30 years ago.

In any case, as I said: everyone knows the current downturn is a bad one. Excluding the current downturn, all income levels have seen gains over the course of decades.

The 25,000 Delphi workers who lost their jobs when the company was outsourced to China are not so fortunate. I have friends and family who lost jobs, then retrained and learned technical skills only to have entire factories outsourced.

The vanishing middle class apparently isn't even real to those who have not yet lost their jobs.

I'm sorry for your friends, but a few personal examples are not a national trend. There is no "vanishing middle class" unless by that you mean the middle class are becoming too rich to continue being considered "middle class". (which of course you do not)

The American dream is dead for the majority of America

http://www.forbes.com/sites/jennagoudreau/2011/06/22/disappearing-middle-class-jobs/

To call that sensationalism would be generous. BS is more accurate. A few of the worst points:

“The idea that one can have a single-earner family...

Sure - we've traded single-earner families for two-earner families and the result is more income! That's an increase in standard of living, not a decrease.

...get a good job, keep it for life...

Today's workers don't want to keep a job for life. Changing jobs is one of the best ways to get a promotion. The spectacular - absurdly - low unemployment rates of the 1990s and 2000s encouraged workers to jump jobs more often. From 1974 to 1994, the unemployment rate only spent 4 years under 6%. From 1994-2007, it never exceeded 6%. http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl...a=X&ei=qmp4UuOUFKuvsQTn7ICQBA&ved=0CFQQ9QEwBQ

 

[russ_watters]

For me and my age group (73) peers, most of that growth happened before outsourcing started.

No it didn't. The first major wave of outsourcing (or just foreign companies taking American jobs) was the death of the American steel companies, starting in the 1970s. The largest income growth, however (as you can clearly see from the graph you posted) was in the 1990s. If you go back further (using the data I linked), you'll see that the largest income gains in the past 50 years happened in the 1990s.

 

[CAC1001]

Remember that the U.S. still manufactures a lot of things. It is one of the largest manufacturers in the world (only recently surpassed by China in terms of raw output by a small margin last I checked). What has declined are manufacturing jobs due to improvements in technology. Outsourcing is not the sole source of loss of manufacturing jobs.

Regarding the economy's history, I think it's important to remember that post-WWII, that was a very unique situation the U.S. found itself in historically that led to such booming economic growth:

1) All of the major U.S. competition economically bombed-out due to WWII

2) The U.S. itself had spent the war building up a large amount of additional manufacturing capability

3) Certain European countries after the war focused on socialism (such as the United Kingdom) which hamstrung their economies, thus providing less competition for the U.S.

4) The infrastructure projects of the New Deal which had established a foundation that allowed formerly rural areas to develop into booming, thriving economies

5) The development of the Interstate Highway System, which allowed the growth of towns and cities

6) The massive amount of research and development into science and technology that happened during WWII in order to develop things ranging from computer technology to radar, sonar, radio, etc...(i.e. electronics), the atomic bomb, huge improvements in aviation and the internal combustion engine, materials science, etc...this provided a base of knowledge for industry to build off of post war.

7) The Cold War defense budget, which led to further massive research and development in science and technology

8) The Space Program, which was probably the greatest investment of money into research and development of science and technology in human history. The modern world would not exist if not for the space program. Silicon Valley would not exist if not for the space program. iPods, iPads, cell phones, the computer you are typing on, the Internet, satellites and all the things that have come from them (geology research for finding more oil and energy sources, understanding of the weather, communications, etc...), improvements in medical technology like CT scanners and MRIs, modern automobiles with all their computer technology, etc...none of it would exist if not for the space program. The space program and the Cold War defense budget, and if you go back far enough, the WWII defense budget, provided the R&D technological foundation to allow the private sector to create whole new industries and products, which partially contributed to the booming economy of the 1980s and 1990s.

9) I don't know the exact size of the contribution in terms of GDP growth, but after WWII ended, the U.S. stole a huge amount of patents from German industry

So I mean while yes the economy of the 1950s and 1960s was in many ways great, it was due to a variety of factors that are not likely to be repeated again any time soon.

 

[DrClapeyron]

First, I resent the phrase 'American Dream' to mean home ownership. Being in my 20's and not-married, my 'American Dream' does not necessarily have to be American...or speak English.

Second, and perhaps more importantly, in many cases job hunting forces people to explore areas far from their homestead - beggars can't be choosers. Job seekers no doubt must travel. In large cities such as Los Angeles, Atlanta and Houston I can't imagine how anyone can get around without a car. Even with existing bus lines and upcoming rail-lines these cities are tough (or impossible) to commute without a car.

Renting creates flexibility. Flexibility opens up opportunities. This flexibility will allow people to work the good paying jobs. For an example, if you ask me "where are the good paying job openings at DrClapeyron" I will tell you that they are in the oil and gas industry. If you can urinate into a cup, you can find a decent paying job in the field. They have been there at least since the US officially came out of the recession. However, I still think many young people, especially those with college degrees, resent the idea of performing manual labor.

A home should come after a career is established, or at least a decent job is found. So, people should not put the cart before the horse.

 

[edward]

Remember that the U.S. still manufactures a lot of things. It is one of the largest manufacturers in the world (only recently surpassed by China in terms of raw output by a small margin last I checked). What has declined are manufacturing jobs due to improvements in technology. Outsourcing is not the sole source of loss of manufacturing jobs.

Regarding the economy's history, I think it's important to remember that post-WWII, that was a very unique situation the U.S. found itself in historically that led to such booming economic growth:

1) All of the major U.S. competition economically bombed-out due to WWII

2) The U.S. itself had spent the war building up a large amount of additional manufacturing capability

3) Certain European countries after the war focused on socialism (such as the United Kingdom) which hamstrung their economies, thus providing less competition for the U.S.

4) The infrastructure projects of the New Deal which had established a foundation that allowed formerly rural areas to develop into booming, thriving economies

5) The development of the Interstate Highway System, which allowed the growth of towns and cities

6) The massive amount of research and development into science and technology that happened during WWII in order to develop things ranging from computer technology to radar, sonar, radio, etc...(i.e. electronics), the atomic bomb, huge improvements in aviation and the internal combustion engine, materials science, etc...this provided a base of knowledge for industry to build off of post war.

7) The Cold War defense budget, which led to further massive research and development in science and technology

8) The Space Program, which was probably the greatest investment of money into research and development of science and technology in human history. The modern world would not exist if not for the space program. Silicon Valley would not exist if not for the space program. iPods, iPads, cell phones, the computer you are typing on, the Internet, satellites and all the things that have come from them (geology research for finding more oil and energy sources, understanding of the weather, communications, etc...), improvements in medical technology like CT scanners and MRIs, modern automobiles with all their computer technology, etc...none of it would exist if not for the space program. The space program and the Cold War defense budget, and if you go back far enough, the WWII defense budget, provided the R&D technological foundation to allow the private sector to create whole new industries and products, which partially contributed to the booming economy of the 1980s and 1990s.

9) I don't know the exact size of the contribution in terms of GDP growth, but after WWII ended, the U.S. stole a huge amount of patents from German industry

So I mean while yes the economy of the 1950s and 1960s was in many ways great, it was due to a variety of factors that are not likely to be repeated again any time soon.

He said as he sat there in his shoes, shirt, pants, and underwear all made in Communist China. So how many trillion was it we spent fighting communism?

Seriously have any of you been in Home Depot lately. Just about every item I pick up is made in China. That includes most tools, the GFCI I bought today, and the $240 kitchen faucet set I bought several months ago.

The faucet set was my bad I presumed that in that price range and with the word DELTA on it there was no way it was made in China. I was wrong but it didn't take long to out find that there are very few if any smaller plumbing products made in this country. Our toilets and bathtubs will be next because this trend isn't about to stop.

Of course we will never see the 50's or 60's again. I would be happy with the 90's economy. Yes we did steal a lot of German technology after the war just as China is stealing ours without a war.

So where do we draw the line? China is being given more and more of our industry in addition to what they steal. Many parts of John Deere tractors are now made in China. There are no small appliances made in this country period. This can not go on forever in all aspects of industry. It is not possible to un-ring a bell.

 

[CAC1001]

He said as he sat there in his shoes, shirt, pants, and underwear all made in Communist China. So how many trillion was it we spent fighting communism?

Seriously have any of you been in Home Depot lately. Just about every item I pick up is made in China. That includes most tools, the GFCI I bought today, and the $240 kitchen faucet set I bought several months ago.

The faucet set was my bad I presumed that in that price range and with the word DELTA on it there was no way it was made in China. I was wrong but it didn't take long to out find that there are very few if any smaller plumbing products made in this country. Our toilets and bathtubs will be next because this trend isn't about to stop.

Of course we will never see the 50's or 60's again. I would be happy with the 90's economy. Yes we did steal a lot of German technology after the war just as China is stealing ours without a war.

So where do we draw the line? China is being given more and more of our industry in addition to what they steal. Many parts of John Deere tractors are now made in China. There are no small appliances made in this country period. This can not go on forever in all aspects of industry. It is not possible to un-ring a bell.

Many (most?) commodity consumer products are made overseas. But China making things ranging from PCs to small appliances to sneakers, T-shirts, toys, etc...does not constitute all manufacturing There are all sorts of high-margin, technologically-sophisticated goods made here in the U.S. They are things like sophisticated medical devices and technologies, electronics, machinery of all kinds, sophisticated componentry of all kinds, etc...not the kinds of things you'll find on the shelves of your local Wal-Mart or Target store, but products that are nonetheless very crucial to the functioning of the American, and the global, economy. The notion that "America doesn't make anything anymore" has to be one of the largest, most widely-believed myths in existence.

Not everything can be made domestically, and it wouldn't make sense to have everything made here if it can be manufactured elsewhere. That is how it is with all economies. It wouldn't make sense, for example, for Alaska to focus on growing oranges. Leave that to Florida. If China can make certain things cheaper, let them. Where intervention is needed is, IMO, on industries very related to the national security and also if the Chinese are breaking the law and stealing our technology (which they are doing).

 

[edward]

Many (most?) commodity consumer products are made overseas. But China making things ranging from PCs to small appliances to sneakers, T-shirts, toys, etc...does not constitute all manufacturing There are all sorts of high-margin, technologically-sophisticated goods made here in the U.S. They are things like sophisticated medical devices and technologies, electronics, machinery of all kinds, sophisticated componentry of all kinds, etc...not the kinds of things you'll find on the shelves of your local Wal-Mart or Target store, but products that are nonetheless very crucial to the functioning of the American, and the global, economy. The notion that "America doesn't make anything anymore" has to be one of the largest, most widely-believed myths in existence.

China makes all of Sears Craftsman tools, every single one of them. Nearly every power tool sold in this country is made in China. Ok so you probably are not a tool person let's take a look at those medical devices. China started out making primarily disposable medical products such as bags etc.

That was a long time ago. They don't not stay static in any area.

China has moved beyond high-volume, low-cost, commodity medical products to medical imaging, diagnostic equipment, and implantable devices.

It is inevitable that more medical companies will move some of their manufacturing to China. There are more FDA-registered Class II and Class III medical manufacturers in China than in any other country outside of the United States.

http://www.mddionline.com/article/manufacturing-medical-devices-confidence-china

General Electric has moved it's imaging headquarters to Beijing along with several billion dollars for R&D. Does anyone really believe that everything that they develop and manufacture in China will stay in China?

Of course America still makes things. lots of things, thousands of things. And we will keep manufacturing those things right up until the point they are outsourced. Much of what is made in China was once made here in America. Am I to believe this simply will not happen anymore?

BTW the link below has the thirty fastest growing jobs in the USA. Non of them are in manufacturing. Number three is Mental health counselors.

http://www.businessinsider.com/the-30-fastest-growing-jobs-in-america-2012-2?op=1

Ok Ok I am going to have a glass of wine now.

Edited

 

[Office_Shredder]

edward, a lot of those are construction jobs which most people would say is a good thing that they're growing so fast (at any rate they were whacked the hardest during the recession and are still recovering), and most of the rest are health related which isn't surprising since healthcare is growing at an unsustainable rate. The remainder all seem to be 'jobs that didn't exist ten years ago and I'm surprised can be classified as a profession'.

Anyway I think the graph here puts a good perspective on things

http://www.aei-ideas.org/2012/12/charts-of-the-day-world-manufacturing-output-2011/mfg1-3/

We had a dip during the recent recession but other than that we seem to be chugging along on a consistent pace of manufacturing growth for the past 40 years

 

[mheslep]

edward, a lot of those are construction jobs which most people would say is a good thing that they're growing so fast (at any rate they were whacked the hardest during the recession and are still recovering), and most of the rest are health related which isn't surprising since healthcare is growing at an unsustainable rate. The remainder all seem to be 'jobs that didn't exist ten years ago and I'm surprised can be classified as a profession'.

Anyway I think the graph here puts a good perspective on things

http://www.aei-ideas.org/2012/12/charts-of-the-day-world-manufacturing-output-2011/mfg1-3/

Yes though if you look a the manufacturing employment figures I think you'll find they've not seen increases.

Also see this article in the NYT, very good on US manufacturing employment.
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/09/20/business/us-textile-factories-return.html?ref=business&_r=1&

 

[mheslep]

Yes, here:

 

[russ_watters]

Yes though if you look a the manufacturing employment figures I think you'll find they've not seen increases.

And I view the combination of those two facts as cause for celebration, not concern.

 

[mheslep]

And I view the combination of those two facts as cause for celebration, not concern.

Sure, from the stand point of increasing US productivity in manufacturing, which I agree must come first else there'd be no US manufacturing. Not so celebratory for those whose livelihood depends(ed) on manufacturing at the factory level. As they say, where someone stands depends on where they sit.

 

[edward]

Sure, from the stand point of increasing US productivity in manufacturing, which I agree must come first else there'd be no US manufacturing. Not so celebratory for those whose livelihood depends(ed) on manufacturing at the factory level. As they say, where someone stands depends on where they sit.

They may be standing on flooring made in China.

http://www.laminateflooringmanufacturers.com/best-laminate-flooring.htm

Or they may be sitting on the furniture that is being produced in China by some of the big brand names, like Thomasville or Ethan Allen.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/06/15/business/worldbusiness/15iht-wbspot16.1.6151733.html

http://www.soc.duke.edu/NC_GlobalEconomy/pdfs/furniture/thomasville_fulltext.pdf

 

[edward]

I have finally found the answer to the changing American dream question.

Today, it seems, the American Dream has taken another hit. It is simply about being able to quit work before you die.

http://business.time.com/2011/09/13/downgrading-the-american-dream/#ixzz2fk4esJrK

 

[russ_watters]

Definitely Social Security is a huge problem, standing in the way of retirement for many, but you have to be careful with polls, as they are perceptions, not realities.

Still, the quote looks like it has little to do with the poll.

 

[OmCheeto]

I have finally found the answer to the changing American dream question.

Today, it seems, the American Dream has taken another hit. It is simply about being able to quit work before you die.

http://business.time.com/2011/09/13/downgrading-the-american-dream/#ixzz2fk4esJrK

Hey! That's my dream!

I've been working since I was about 9. My mom used to shuttle me and my six siblings to pick crops during the summer. Dreadful work. Then I got a job as a "Rangeman" (=cook the food and wash the freakin' dishes. Bah!) at a fast food joint when I was 16. Dreadful work. Then I joined the Navy at 18. Meh. There were good times and bad. Then I got out, as I decided I was terrified of submarines. The unemployment rate at that time for people in my field was 50%. All my potential employers told me to go to school. So I did, though for financial reasons, it did require me to move back in with my mother.

So I finished my first year of university in one year. Then I ran out of savings, and had to get a minimum wage job. So my second year took me two years to complete. Not too bad. My junior year though, took me three years, and I wasn't even done. I hit a pre-internet wall, where the only classes I could take to continue my degree, were offered during the summer. I calculated it would have taken me another 15 years to finish my degree at that rate. I switched to another university, and started taking evening classes. 6 months later, they closed the program.

At that point, I decided the world was working against me, so I dropped out of school, and bought a house. I was able to do that, because my employer had me doing the work of people who were being paid twice minimum wage, and I threatened to quit. So they made me regular staff, and, having lived quite uncomfortably at home with mommy on minimum wage, I saved all my excess funds.

25 years later, it appears that nothing has changed, for the young people of today.

Yesterday, I had someone in a fancy car pull into my driveway, while I was sitting on the front porch, and asked if he could rake my lawn. I said no, that I was about to do it myself. A couple of hours later, someone knocked on my door, asking for cans. I gave him my cans. He drove away in a fancy car.

Making a Living Collecting Cans
...
But collecting cans is a tough way to make a living. Traipsing around San Francisco all night is very different from scavenging during the day. Francis recommends a flashlight to avoid broken glass. A few recyclers sport gloves to deal with unexpected nastiness. Recyclers also contend with rats and raccoons.

The rats are audacious, man. They don’t run. I open up bins and they look up at me like ‘What?’

I wonder if this is what they meant by "rat race", back when I was a kid.

hmmm... It looks like we've arrived.

synopsis?

America is stupid.

----------------------------
though in 2³ * 5² days...

 

[EricVT]

I am 28 years old, so slightly older than those surveyed, but my aversion to home ownership stems from the "permanency" of it. Most of my family currently live in the same city they were born in and they never had any desire to move around. Makes sense for them to own a home, but for someone like me and many other young people who have no intentions of sitting still in one place for 10 (or 30+...) years, buying a home just seems like a complication.

 

[OmCheeto]

I am 28 years old, so slightly older than those surveyed, but my aversion to home ownership stems from the "permanency" of it. Most of my family currently live in the same city they were born in and they never had any desire to move around. Makes sense for them to own a home, but for someone like me and many other young people who have no intentions of sitting still in one place for 10 (or 30+...) years, buying a home just seems like a complication.

https://www.physicsforums.com/showpost.php?p=4412252&postcount=8

I rest my case...

And thank you Eric, for pointing that out. I've been adopting kids like you for years. Can't afford to pay your tuition yet, but someday...

 

[edward]

I am 28 years old, so slightly older than those surveyed, but my aversion to home ownership stems from the "permanency" of it. Most of my family currently live in the same city they were born in and they never had any desire to move around. Makes sense for them to own a home, but for someone like me and many other young people who have no intentions of sitting still in one place for 10 (or 30+...) years, buying a home just seems like a complication.

There is certainly nothing unusual about your aversion to permanency especially for someone your age and even older. This country would never have been existed if it hadn't been for that fact.

The ability to move around has also been a part of the American life style that we may have lost, although I know a number of people who had to move just to find work. They were all older (mid forties) looking for permanent work, and a place to start all over.

I don't know what you have been; schooled in, trained in, or your work history. Can you find a job in all of the places you plan on living for a few years? Some skills are much more compatible with moving around than others.

Wherever you go and whatever you do I wish you the very best.

 

[Astronuc]

From September 2013

By the Numbers: The Incredibly Shrinking American Middle Class
http://billmoyers.com/2013/09/20/by-the-numbers-the-incredibly-shrinking-american-middle-class/


Record Number of Americans Can’t Afford Their Rent
http://billmoyers.com/2013/12/09/record-number-of-americans-can’t-afford-their-rent/
December 9, 2013

 

[Astronuc]

AP IMPACT: The world braces for retirement crisis
http://news.yahoo.com/ap-impact-world-braces-retirement-crisis-054306102--finance.html

Many of those facing a financial squeeze in retirement can look to themselves for part of the blame. They spent many years before the Great Recession borrowing and spending instead of setting money aside for old age. In the U.S., households took on an additional $5.4 trillion in debt — an increase of 75 percent — from the start of 2003 until mid-2008, according to the Federal Reserve Bank of New York. The savings rate fell from nearly 13 percent of after-tax income in the early 1980s to 2 percent in 2005.

The National Institute on Retirement Security estimates that Americans are at least $6.8 trillion short of what they need to have saved for a comfortable retirement. For those 55 to 64, the shortfall comes to $113,000 per household.

. . . .

Moreover, it is a looming global crisis.

 

[edward]

What does student debt have to do with not being able to retire? A lot of older people are helping their children pay off student debt. And a lot of people who went back to school to advance their careers now have student debt themselves.

At age 51, Charlene Rose had hoped to be socking away money for retirement by now. But instead, she's still paying off her student loans, largely for a master's degree she got to advance her career. And now she's got three kids in college, each of whom is taking out student loans of their own to pay for higher education.

And a real mind bender:

student loan debt is growing among an age segment many may not think of as students: Fifty-somethings. Americans 50 to 59 years old owed $112 billion in student loan debt at the end of 2012, according to the New York Fed—up from just $34 billion in 2005. And there are a lot of them. And the average balance per person has increased. Today, they owe an average of $23,820—up from $14,714 in early 2005.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/business/2013/09/02/parents-student-loan/2749233/

 

[edpell]

There is an alternative to a mortgage, saving money, building yourself and building small.