Is Sarkozy addressing the ongoing violence in French suburbs effectively?

[TRCSF]

Nice sentiments Zlex.
I don't remember the French saying such "nice" things about the US after 9/11.

Then you don't remember the whole 911 thing very well. The French were, as with most of the rest of the world, very sympathetic to the US. They were the hallmark of foreign sympathy to the US, it was the leading French paper that ran the oft-quoted headline "We Are All Americans Now."

It was after the right wing media attack towards the French for being right about Iraq that things started heading south.

 

[TRCSF]

Ever heard of 40 cars being burnt every night in America, Britain, Germany?

In France the cars are being burnt in a political riot. Once things calm down the rioters will go back to being decent, law abiding citizens.

America, on the other hand, will remain a far more violent and criminal country. The murder rate, for example, is twice as high in the U.S.

 

[TRCSF]

Those who expect to be fed by other people while they themselves laze around, yes, they are parasites. I would guess this makes up the majority of the welfare recipients.
I wouldn't condemn anyone on welfare if for instance its a choice between life and death or if the person has already payed for it before in the form of taxes.

But the rioters are angry because they want to work, and they're not being allowed to due to discrimination.

 

[deckart]

So welfare recipients are parasites..? That's what you're saying?

They sure can be. I once was a recipient and lived among a community of welfare recipients. Most were content to sit on their butt’s and do nothing on the tax-payers dime. It’s not so much that they are parasites but that the system gives them incentive to become parasites. It’s human nature to follow the path of least resistance. Welfare is a necessity in emergency situations but should not be a lifestyle.

 

[sid_galt]

In France the cars are being burnt in a political riot. Once things calm down the rioters will go back to being decent, law abiding citizens.

Actually according to the Guardian, thousands of cars are burnt regularly each month without riots in the suburbs.

The International Herald Tribune also had a quote from the French Interior Minister who said that 20-40 cars are burnt regularly in the suburbs. Many here doubt about the authenticity of the quote. Personally, I believe its genuine. Violence in French suburbs is a documented fact.

 

[sid_galt]

But the rioters are angry because they want to work, and they're not being allowed to due to discrimination.

1. A person who wants to work will not go around destroying property. Thats a job for gangsters.

2. I don't know how much discrimination exists in France no matter what Villepin says. Segregation is definitely there.

 

[TRCSF]

1. A person who wants to work will not go around destroying property. Thats a job for gangsters.
2. I don't know how much discrimination exists in France no matter what Villepin says. Segregation is definitely there.

1. The people who are actually rioting disagree with you.

2. Discrimination is widespread. That's why there's the segregation.

 

[SOS2008]

..after all ..er... Oil For Food scammin' compassion..

Check out post #26 in the impeachment thread--good old Halliburton and Bush and his administration's wonderful management of Iraq.

(I now realize why people dislike intellectuals--especially those who love to listen to themselves.)

They sure can be. I once was a recipient and lived among a community of welfare recipients. Most were content to sit on their butt’s and do nothing on the tax-payers dime. It’s not so much that they are parasites but that the system gives them incentive to become parasites. It’s human nature to follow the path of least resistance. Welfare is a necessity in emergency situations but should not be a lifestyle.

We discussed this before in another section of PF, and I agree with you on this one deckart.

 

[0TheSwerve0]

I keep reading that it is all the "youngsters" rioting - is this because young men (not women I assume) are more likely to riot, or because they are the ones out of work? Do the older citizens support this, or have they accepted their fate in such a crappy system?
I'm inclined to believe a little bit of both.

Here's what I found from a quick search (obviously a theory based on "race"/melanin count and national identity, but I do think that young men are the most violent and reckless group naturally).

http://www.zmag.org/Sustainers/content/2003-03/14hendrixson.cfm"

The correlation that the media makes between young men and violent uprisings popularizes the "youth bulge" concept. This concept identifies young men as a historically volatile population. It explores the idea that the presence of more than twenty percent of young people in the population signals the possibility of political rebellion and unrest. The concept specifically equates large percentages of young men with an increased possibility of violence, particularly in the global South where analysts argue that governments may not have the capacity to support them.

Historically, the United States has viewed youth in the South as a threat to national security. After World War II, when overall perceptions about population growth were beginning to shift, U.S. military analysts and academics began to define the growing number of youth in the South as a problem. This fear of youth in the South coincided with growing U.S. interest in access to raw materials to supply industry.

For the U.S., this access depended on good relationships with Southern governments. However, at the time anti-colonial nationalism was on the rise, and U.S. interests were threatened by this trend. Betsy Hartmann, author of Reproductive Rights and Wrongs, notes:

The success of the Chinese Revolution, Indian and Indonesian nonalignment, independence movements in Africa, economic nationalism in Latin America-all these contributed to growing U.S. fears of the Third World. Population growth, rather than centuries of colonial domination, was believed to fuel nationalist fires, especially given the increasing proportion of youth.

Though political trends have shifted since that time, U.S. military analysts have continued to characterize youth as a threat and have created "appropriate" defense policy in response. Personified as a discontented, rebellious teenage boy, almost always a person of color, the youth bulge is portrayed as an unpredictable, out-of-control force in the South with the potential to catalyze uncontainable conflicts that may spill over into neighboring countries and even other areas of the world, including the U.S.

 

[0TheSwerve0]

Also from that site:

Christian Mesquida and Neil Weiner, researchers at York University, go so far as to suggest this violence is biologically determined. Weiner contends that, "human (especially young male) tendencies to engage in coalitional aggression must be an advantageous trait; if not, natural selection would have ensured the trait's extinction by now."

I think for these riots, it is probably more culture and social situation, but we do see that it is the young men that are at the forefront when given a chance.

 

[devil-fire]

does anyone think this will be a catalist for postive change? surely with the amount of attention all the damage is drawing, the problem will no longer be ignored.

 

[0TheSwerve0]

I think it takes more than direct, even embarrassing, attention to change something so deeply rooted in a society. Even in India, where the caste system has been outlawed and "frowned upon" by the West, it still continues. It is the mind colonization that you have to work on, the laws will be a byproduct of this rather than a successful way to change the perspective. Things like this operate on multiple sites - hence it takes much effort to change.

 

[loseyourname]

I keep reading that it is all the "youngsters" rioting - is this because young men (not women I assume) are more likely to riot, or because they are the ones out of work? Do the older citizens support this, or have they accepted their fate in such a crappy system?

According to the statistics presented in some of the papers and websites I looked over back when I was trying to get at the causes of high unemployment in France, it seemed to be the case that they had very good job security, but it was difficult to get a job in the first place, and difficult to get a new job once you've lost one. Most of the unemployed were young people, so it makes sense that they would be the ones rioting.

 

[loseyourname]

I think it takes more than direct, even embarrassing, attention to change something so deeply rooted in a society.

How deeply rooted do you think it is? As far as I can remember (of course, I've only looked over the history once), they've only had these laws and this unemployment problem for about twenty years or so.

Or are you referring to the discrimination against immigrant populations?

 

[El Hombre Invisible]

If they don't work they'll die, yes.

And that's what you want?

Those who expect to be fed by other people while they themselves laze around, yes, they are parasites. I would guess this makes up the majority of the welfare recipients.
I wouldn't condemn anyone on welfare if for instance its a choice between life and death or if the person has already payed for it before in the form of taxes.

The vast majority of people on welfare do so because they cannot work. Whereas you seem to think they should work or die, we have a less barbaric attitude towards human life. In the case of immigration, I don't know how it works in France, but in the UK you cannot work for the first 6 months following your application. The recipient has no choice but to receive benefits. This is what you refer to as 'laziness' I guess.

It is true that such a system is frequently exploited, which is why the government should continually improve such a system to ensure that it is not. However this is an issue of how the system is implemented, not the system itself.

Do you have any evidence to back up your claim that most people are on welfare because they are too lazy to work, or are you just spouting knee-jerk, callous nonsense?

They sure can be. I once was a recipient and lived among a community of welfare recipients. Most were content to sit on their butt’s and do nothing on the tax-payers dime. It’s not so much that they are parasites but that the system gives them incentive to become parasites. It’s human nature to follow the path of least resistance. Welfare is a necessity in emergency situations but should not be a lifestyle.

That wasn't the question.

I keep reading that it is all the "youngsters" rioting

It's not just youngsters. If you look at some of the footage you'll see normal men and women setting cars and bins ablaze. However, I think much of the worst attrocities, such as the man beaten to death for trying to extinguish a fire outside his house, and the disabled woman set on fire, are the work of kids.

 

[Astronuc]

A slightly different perspective from a conservative friend who is pro-Israel:

French solution: Paristinian state - http://worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=47285
by Joseph Farrah

It's clear France is no longer in control of its population.

It's clear millions within its borders are struggling for freedom and independence.

It's clear that these people are not rioting for the sake of rioting, they are responding to oppression from French authorities.

It's clear that their uprising cannot be met with state violence, because that would only lead to a cycle of violence.

It's clear that these freedom-fighters – whom I have dubbed "Paristinians" – want a state of their own.

. . . .
As I mentioned yesterday in my column, if France has these kinds of systemic problems with its Muslim population, then it is time to partition France. It's time for an independent Muslim state to be created. After all, isn't that what France and other European nations have determined is the proper solution for Israel?

The major difference between the situations in France and Israel would be that many Palestinians were expelled from what is now Israel, while the violence in France arises from an immigrant population.

The solution in France and Europe is to stop the descrimination and segregation - not that it is necessarily easy.

How to have two perspectivly (not perceptively or perceptibly) different cultures coexist peacefully? Hmmm.

 

[El Hombre Invisible]

I think it's a somewhat extreme view to say these people are fighting to create their own state. There's no suggestion of that, that I have seen anyway. I think we're just looking at a part of the country the state thought of as an oubliette that they're now they're being very rudely reminded of. People who have never had the benefit of law and regulation, but are of late the focus of it. But whether they arrived at this action independantly through desperation, or whether their desperation has made them open to such action provoked from outside... I don't know.

Still... whatever the reason... burning disabled women and beating someone to death for trying to extinguish a fire doesn't make a sympathetic case. If the French can't handle it, they should ask for help. Like that would ever happen.

 

[Astronuc]

I think it's a somewhat extreme view to say these people are fighting to create their own state. There's no suggestion of that, that I have seen anyway. I think we're just looking at a part of the country the state thought of as an oubliette that they're now they're being very rudely reminded of. People who have never had the benefit of law and regulation, but are of late the focus of it. But whether they arrived at this action independantly through desperation, or whether their desperation has made them open to such action provoked from outside... I don't know.

That is correct. The article I cited is sarcastic. The the writer and others who are sympathetic, the proverbial shoe is on the other foot with respect to France.

I do see the violence as an outcome of frustration - much like the riots in the US during the summer of 1968 when African Americans reacted to the assassination of Martin Luther King and the general racist environment in the US at the time.

However, the use of violence, the injury or killing of innocent people, is fundamentally wrong and counter-productive.

 

[Art]

A slightly different perspective from a conservative friend who is pro-Israel:
French solution: Paristinian state - http://worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=47285
by Joseph Farrah
The major difference between the situations in France and Israel would be that many Palestinians were expelled from what is now Israel, while the violence in France arises from an immigrant population.
The solution in France and Europe is to stop the descrimination and segregation - not that it is necessarily easy.
How to have two perspectivly (not perceptively or perceptibly) different cultures coexist peacefully? Hmmm.

He forgot to mention the holocaust in that article.

Mind you his complete and total misunderstanding of the situation goes someway to explain why Israel has so many problem's with it's neighbours. They really need to discard that victim mentality they like to revel in.

 

[Skyhunter]

Then you don't remember the whole 911 thing very well. The French were, as with most of the rest of the world, very sympathetic to the US. They were the hallmark of foreign sympathy to the US, it was the leading French paper that ran the oft-quoted headline "We Are All Americans Now."
It was after the right wing media attack towards the French for being right about Iraq that things started heading south.

Sorry I forgot to add the [sarcasm] brackets.

 

[deckart]

That wasn't the question.

It may very well be part of the answer.

 

[Informal Logic]

Above I posted the issue of immigration to meet demands for cheap labor, and the similarity to the current explosion of immigration into the US (though mostly illegal, and the French are probably less accepting than Americans). I made that point, and add the information below because IMO these problems can arise for reasons not related to a particular race, but rather a matter of a foreign culture into another and inevitable assimilation problems. It brought to mind other times of US history:

Once Africans were captured and brought across the Atlantic on the horrific Middle Passage, they were put into slavery in South America, the Caribbean, or the United States. By the late eighteenth century, a growing number of people in the United States began to express uneasiness with the slave system. George Washington, the nation's first President, freed his slaves upon his death in 1799. Others did the same, and the number of free blacks in America began to rise sharply in many areas during the nineteenth century. At the same time, abolitionist groups that demanded the emancipation of all slaves rose in strength.

From this climate was born the idea of colonization, which proposed sending blacks, free and slave, back to Africa. The plan was supported by many of America's most prominent citizens, and by 1817 the movement began officially with the founding of the American Colonization Society. Sending their first blacks to Africa in 1820, the effort faltered at first due to its failure to find suitable territory on which to settle. The problem was solved, however, after the U.S. was able to acquire a large portion of land on the west coast of the continent. Liberia was created from this early settlement, and later became an independent country. Colonization continued sporadically for the next few decades, but support was inconsistent. The Civil War, and the emancipation that came with it, basically brought an end to the era of colonization in the United States.

http://beatl.barnard.columbia.edu/students/his3487/lembrich/seminar6.html

...I think we're just looking at a part of the country the state thought of as an oubliette that they're now they're being very rudely reminded of. People who have never had the benefit of law and regulation, but are of late the focus of it. But whether they arrived at this action independantly through desperation, or whether their desperation has made them open to such action provoked from outside... I don't know.

Still... whatever the reason... burning disabled women and beating someone to death for trying to extinguish a fire doesn't make a sympathetic case...

I believe there was another “Back To Africa” movement in which many African Americans went back to Africa of their own choosing, though mostly unsuccessful as they found life there to be even more undesirable than as a minority in the US. It makes me wonder if these citizens of immigrant ancestry have stopped to consider the alternatives and reflect upon their own efforts toward assimilation. Certainly it is not accomplished through destruction of property or risk to life.

Mind you his complete and total misunderstanding of the situation goes someway to explain why Israel has so many problem's with it's neighbours.

I also wonder how the Israeli’s would feel if another Arab state was created like Liberia…and like Israel?

 

[Zlex]

Check out post #26 in the impeachment thread--good old Halliburton and Bush and his administration's wonderful management of Iraq.
(I now realize why people dislike intellectuals--especially those who love to listen to themselves.)
We discussed this before in another section of PF, and I agree with you on this one deckart.

'Dites seulement l''Non!', s'il vous plait!

Belgium, of all places. Gee, who was the first to lead the *****ing up in Rwanda, turning over their unfired automatic weapons to random thugs on behalf of the West before being tortured and brutally murdered?

I'm willing to bet the Enlightened Intellectuals award Kofi another Noble Peace Prize for handling this one, but he's going to have to break his '800,000 corpses' record this time.

I wonder what the Las Vegas odds are on that one? I don't think they actually take bets on sure things.


The European Riots will stop

a] ...when the rioters find the stops.

b] ...when the rioters get tired of finding that there are no stops.

c] ...temporarily, when the rioters agree to allow UN Peacekeepers to show up and defend themselves, just so they can torment them by immediately booting them out of Europe? (But...where will the Belgians run this time?)

d] ...when they are shamed by armies of ... BigHeadedPuppeteers?

e] ...when McDonald's serves them all the free veggieburgers they can carry away?

f] ...when the US leaves Iraq?

g] ...when the Jews are finally wiped off the face of the earth?

h]... when the Dems retake control of the DoD? Wait a minute, that was a repeat of g] sorry.

i]... when they finally receive some understanding?

j]... when Hell freezes over?

k]...when Joan Baez sings at them?

l]...when Jane Fonda poses on a burned out Citroen and gives them a big thumbs up?

Who knows? We're still in the 'racism and poverty' spraytpainting of kids in Polo shirts part of the festivities.

 

[SOS2008]

'Dites seulement l''Non!', s'il vous plait!
Belgium, of all places. Gee, who was the first to lead the *****ing up in Rwanda, turning over their unfired automatic weapons to random thugs on behalf of the West before being tortured and brutally murdered?
I'm willing to bet the Enlightened Intellectuals award Kofi another Noble Peace Prize for handling this one, but he's going to have to break his '800,000 corpses' record this time.
I wonder what the Las Vegas odds are on that one? I don't think they actually take bets on sure things.
The European Riots will stop
a] ...when the rioters find the stops.
b] ...when the rioters get tired of finding that there are no stops.
c] ...temporarily, when the rioters agree to allow UN Peacekeepers to show up and defend themselves, just so they can torment them by immediately booting them out of Europe? (But...where will the Belgians run this time?)
d] ...when they are shamed by armies of ... BigHeadedPuppeteers?
e] ...when McDonald's serves them all the free veggieburgers they can carry away?
f] ...when the US leaves Iraq?
g] ...when the Jews are finally wiped off the face of the earth?
h]... when the Dems retake control of the DoD? Wait a minute, that was a repeat of g] sorry.
i]... when they finally receive some understanding?
j]... when Hell freezes over?
k]...when Joan Baez sings at them?
l]...when Jane Fonda poses on a burned out Citroen and gives them a big thumbs up?
Who knows? We're still in the 'racism and poverty' spraytpainting of kids in Polo shirts part of the festivities.

My French is rusty, but I did enjoy the humor in your post. Joan Baez…you want to talk about torture, Limp Bizkit doesn’t come close.

 

[Mercator]

My French is rusty, but I did enjoy the humor in your post. Joan Baez…you want to talk about torture, Limp Bizkit doesn’t come close.

Nice to see that somebody knows what he is talking about. Another flaw in the intelligent design if you ask me.

 

[SOS2008]

Nice to see that somebody knows what he is talking about. Another flaw in the intelligent design if you ask me.

Oh, I thought it was entertainment.

 

[El Hombre Invisible]

It may very well be part of the answer.

Yes, to a different question.

I believe there was another “Back To Africa” movement in which many African Americans went back to Africa of their own choosing, though mostly unsuccessful as they found life there to be even more undesirable than as a minority in the US. It makes me wonder if these citizens of immigrant ancestry have stopped to consider the alternatives and reflect upon their own efforts toward assimilation. Certainly it is not accomplished through destruction of property or risk to life.

I really hope this isn't a "they should be happy they're not in Afghanistan" argument. That somewhere in Africa was worse than living as a minority in the US does not justify oppression and racism in the US, and it is not easy to make an effort towards assimilation when the would-be assimilators don't want you.

 

[Informal Logic]

I really hope this isn't a "they should be happy they're not in Afghanistan" argument. That somewhere in Africa was worse than living as a minority in the US does not justify oppression and racism in the US, and it is not easy to make an effort towards assimilation when the would-be assimilators don't want you.

No, I do not propose that argument. I assume the immigrants entered France legally. If so, there is obligation on Frances part to help them assimilate. At the same time immigrants are responsible for assimilation into the host country as well. Often minorities set themselves apart. People want to immigrate where life is better, but you do not show up on someone’s doorstep and make demands that they change their home to your liking. For example, learning the national language, abiding by laws, etc.

 

[Anttech]

No, I do not propose that argument. I assume the immigrants entered France legally. If so, there is obligation on Frances part to help them assimilate. At the same time immigrants are responsible for assimilation into the host country as well. Often minorities set themselves apart. People want to immigrate where life is better, but you do not show up on someone’s doorstep and make demands that they change their home to your liking. For example, learning the national language, abiding by laws, etc.

actually I'll bet that these people are 2nd 3rd generation Immigrants... Ill have a look to see if i can back this up with some links

 

[Informal Logic]

actually I'll bet that these people are 2nd 3rd generation Immigrants... Ill have a look to see if i can back this up with some links

I believe these are second and third generation, and that Germany had similar immigration but to what extent I cannot recall. I admit that since I do not live in France, I am viewing the topic more generally. In reference to the US, I will try to find transcripts for a recent review of black culture and how it hurts performance of high school students, for example. More recently there is the matter of sudden increase in the Hispanic population and demands to speak Spanish in business, etc., which has caused resentment by other Americans. It just seems both parties need to make an effort toward improvement of conditions.

 

[Anttech]

France does have a very strange method of assimilation. It is illegal in France to even count immigrants.. France has always had some racial problems also.. And it looks like this past and methodology is catching up with them... It seems there republic method doesn't work, and will need changing.

One of the things I love about London is its diversity, I am not saying the UK does immigration perfectly, but they absorb different cultures and then that culture becomes part of ours.. Look at the British "National" dish for an example: Curry.

France needs to start listening to these people and stop ignoring the fact that they are being treated as second class citizens or this problem will keep coming back to haunt them... The Unemployment rates in the ghettos are twice that of the national average, this says something in its-self...

 

[El Hombre Invisible]

One of the things I love about London is its diversity, I am not saying the UK does immigration perfectly, but they absorb different cultures and then that culture becomes part of ours.. Look at the British "National" dish for an example: Curry.

France needs to start listening to these people and stop ignoring the fact that they are being treated as second class citizens or this problem will keep coming back to hunt them... The Unemployment rates in the ghettos are twice that of the national average, this says something in its-self...

Yeah, but France already had a great cuisine before the influx of Indian chefs. Us Brits had some meat prepared by a special technique called "cooking with no particular thought", vegetables boiled with a pinch of salt, and a flexible sauce called "gravy" that was just left over from cooking the meat. We desparately needed immigration so we could have dinners out and takeaways.

 

[Anttech]

Actually some British food is great:

Examples:

Lamb hot Pot
Steak Pies
Fish
Sunday Roasts
Shepards pie
(deep fried Mars bars haha)

 

[Art]

Here's a link to a very good opinion piece regarding the problems in France which I think is well worth a read for those interested in the background leading up to the riots.

The Problem with Frenchness

Readers have asked me for comment about the riots in France that have now provoked emergency laws and a curfew. What I would rather comment on, however, is the myths that have governed many rightwing American comments on the tragic events. Actually, I can only think that the disturbances must produce a huge ice cream headache for the dittoheads. French of European heritage pitted against French of African and North African heritage? How could they ever pick a side?

http://www.juancole.com/2005/11/problem-with-frenchness-readers-have.html

 

[Anttech]

very sober opinion... Nice link