Is the Middle East's Troubles Linked to Israel?

[Gokul43201]

You clearly must have not read or heard the entire news story. The Israeli soldiers shot and killed a school girl wearing a backpack because they THOUGHT she was carrying explosives when in reality she was just running to school. After they shot and killed her, the Isreali soldiers' commander when up to the body and unloaded an entire machine gun magazine into the dead girls body. I think they found over 30 bullets in this little girl.

I did read/watch this story, and am aware of the details (except for the number of bullets used) you talk of.

Clearly, you seem to not be aware of a previous story where a 11 or 12 year old kid was caught (a few months ago) with a bagful of explosives.

Look, I'm not condoning this act in any way - I was as disgusted as others when I heard the reporter interviewing the Israeli soldier that squealed on his unit leader.

All I'm trying to say is that it's not as one-sided or as simplistic as tumor wants us to think it is.

 

[member 5645]

I did read/watch this story, and am aware of the details (except for the number of bullets used) you talk of.

Clearly, you seem to not be aware of a previous story where a 11 or 12 year old kid was caught (a few months ago) with a bagful of explosives.

Look, I'm not condoning this act in any way - I was as disgusted as others when I heard the reporter interviewing the Israeli soldier that squealed on his unit leader.

All I'm trying to say is that it's not as one-sided or as simplistic as tumor wants us to think it is.

Gokul, always the voice of reason

 

[Prometheus]

none of em deserve to have control over jerusalem....if someone does then its the christians coz they've shown the most patience on this issue.

Are you for real? None of em deserves but the Christians. You made my day with that one. I will give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you are joking.

 

[jcsd]

The probvlem is Gokul I'm still seeing aplogism, for quite frankly abhorent actions. here's a few points:

1) The wheelchair-bound Sheikh Yassin ceratinly was a member of Hamas, however he is not the most recent palestian in a wheelchair to be killed by the IDF, a palesttiian civlian was shot and killed in June was killed by Israeli soldiers during a protest. A disproportionate number of physcially and menatlly disabled people have been killed by the IDF, one of the main reasons for this is the shoot-on-site policy used to enforce curfews.

Also I'd point out that Yassin was never direcctly linked with any terroist attacks and few believe it likely that he ordered any terrorist attacks, as that was simply not the role he played in the organisation, so the question is should someone be killed for what they believ, hoewever abhorent you find that? (compare this to the assaimnation by a Palestian of a Jewish member of the Knesset, from one of the unabashedly racist settler parties there).

2) Mosr settlemnts are not in Palestinian towns, but more often than not they are are near Palestinian towns, howvere the main exception is the settlemnt in Hebron which is distributed throughout the Palestian town of Hebron. Most settlers are not US immigrants, certainly not all of them are ideologicl zealots many live in settlemtns due to the fact that they are heavily subsidised by the Israeli government. Howevre Hebron is a completely different kettle of fish; nearly all of the settlers their are relgious fundamentalists and there is a disproportionatly large number of US immigrants, the Hebron settlemtn is a hotbed of racism and is the heartland for KACH-related terrorist groups.

3) You say that in the recent shooting of the Palestian girl, that the IDF soldiers had good reason to think she was carrying explosives. No suicide attack has evr been carried out by anyone neraly this young, indeed even the the lovable Hamas have a policy of not allowing people this young to carry out attacks (indded the Isreali army never claimed thta they suspected her of carrying explosives). In the past children of simlair age have been used as muels to smuggle explosives across borders by Palestian terrorist groups.

5) The ratio of civilains-militants killed by the Israeli army during the current is approximately 50-50 (by their own admission they placed a mininmum value of the number of Palestians killed who were miltnats at about 40%, howver this was acouple of years ago), infact this is not much better than the Palestinian militant groups. During the current initfada just less than 50% of the Israeli deaths have been Israeli citizens within Israel (i.e. most of those killed have either been soldiers on active duty or non-soldiers in the occupied teroritries).

Israeli and inertnatinal human rights groups have documented many cases of human rights absues and disregard for life by the IDF, howver Israel rarely investigates these claims. A cae in point is the killing of Briton Tom Hurdnall in the OTs, Tom was shot whilst trying to save Palestian children from an IDF sniper, at the time Israel tired to cover-up the incident, even claiming that Tom was armed himself (the whole incident was caught on video which showed that IDf was just plain lying through it's nose as except for the IDf soldier there wer no other gunmen in the area). After sevral years of sustained diplomatic pressure from the UK Israel dediced to investigate the murder, the soldier involved admitted he was shooting the children for the hell of it and this was not the first time he had amused himself by doing such a thing, he's now facing crimanl charges. The main point is thatincidents like these are rarely investigated (this incident would never of been investigated if it was not for the tireless campaiging of Tom's parents) as the IDF has created a culture were soldiers can do anything they please to Palestinians without fear of reprisal (unless thye are unlucky enough to be caught on film or reported by their subordinates).

 

[Aquamarine]

Children and terror
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/myths/mf24.html#a12

Palestinian Civilians
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/myths/mf18.html#m
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/myths/mf19.html#o1a

US and Israel
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/myths/mf21.html

 

[jcsd]

Those articles are merely propaganda (you could of choosen a less obvious source than US-Israel), there has never been any direct evidnec offered of Palestian miltnats inetinally using Palestina civlains as 'human shields'. In fact the accusation is in many ways insulting as there have been sevral well-documeted occasions of the IDf using random Palestian civilians as human shields.

I suggest you contrast the picture painted in those articles with the pictures pianted by B'Tselem, HRW, AI and the UNHCHR.

 

[Aquamarine]

Those articles are merely propaganda (you could of choosen a less obvious source than US-Israel), there has never been any direct evidnec offered of Palestian miltnats inetinally using Palestina civlains as 'human shields'. In fact the accusation is in many ways insulting as there have been sevral well-documeted occasions of the IDf using random Palestian civilians as human shields.

I suggest you contrast the picture painted in those articles with the pictures pianted by B'Tselem, HRW, AI and the UNHCHR.

Yes, they are biased. But they have references for their statements, including from Amnesty.

 

[jcsd]

Also you might like to contast the diproptionate number of suicde bombers who have come from Hebron a town where the IDF is solely responsible for law and order and the prevntion of terrorism. In many ways it's Kafkaesque as throughout most of the initfada Israel has prohibted Palestian policeman from carrying guns, infact they gentrally shoot on site if they see any armed Palestian whethr he is a policeman or not, yet they blame the PA for not preventing Hamas carrying out attacks even though they have fialed completely in this task themselves.

 

[Aquamarine]

The majority of Palestinians support suicide bombings (also here).
The majority of Palestinians support the killing of Jewish civilians, including Jewish children (also here and here).
The majority of Palestinians do not accept Israel's right to exist.

The majority of Palestinians support the Sept 11th killings.
Palestinians dance in the streets on 9/11.
It was furiously claimed that these were just a small minority. But opinion polls showed this was not true. The majority of Palestinians supported 9/11.
73% of Palestinians supported suicide attacks against USA in Nov. 2000 poll

http://humphrys.humanists.net/judaism.html#modern.anti.semitism

 

[jcsd]

Actuallt ehy have an AI cite for one spefic case, yet the reports of AI completely conflict with what they say in the rest of their articles. In fact AI has recommended that the US and other countries cease arms transfers to Israel as they are being used in human rights violations, in the same report it points out that Palestians killed where not killed whist Israel was fighting militants, but during protests (the article date from 2001 during the first few years of the initfada the vast majority of Palestians killed where protestors).

 

[Aquamarine]

Also you might like to contast the diproptionate number of suicde bombers who have come from Hebron a town where the IDF is solely responsible for law and order and the prevntion of terrorism. In many ways it's Kafkaesque as throughout most of the initfada Israel has prohibted Palestian policeman from carrying guns, infact they gentrally shoot on site if they see any armed Palestian whethr he is a policeman or not, yet they blame the PA for not preventing Hamas carrying out attacks even though they have fialed completely in this task themselves.

References?

 

[jcsd]

http://humphrys.humanists.net/judaism.html#modern.anti.semitism

So what quite frnakly, the majority of Israelis support milktary actions against the Palestians (and the majority has also been directly involve din some way as miltary service is madortay for all but Israel's Arab population and it's relgious nutjobs) but this does not mean that all Isareli civlians are legitmate targets.

 

[jcsd]

Israel, in turn, has agreed to allow some Palestinian policeman to be armed, for the first time in two years, although each officer will first be subject to vetting by the Shin Bet security service.

http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/spages/461566.html

here's a map of the security zones in Hebron:

http://www.antiwar.com/hacohen/h021903.html

 

[tumor]

I will never forgive Israelis for this;

 

[Aquamarine]

http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/spages/461566.html

here's a map of the security zones in Hebron:

http://www.antiwar.com/hacohen/h021903.html

You have not subsantiated claims that most attack have come from Hebron, that this has occurred since Israel took control again or that Israel made the claim after that.

Neither have you given references for many other statements previously in this thread.

 

[Aquamarine]

I will never forgive Israelis for this;

Here are pictures and video of Palestinians celebrating 9/11, which most supported:
http://humphrys.humanists.net/judaism.html#moderate.islam

Or cheering the killing of women and children in Israel:
http://humphrys.humanists.net/israel.conflict.html

 

[member 5645]

I will never forgive Israelis for this;

I can't believe your ignorance, bigotry, and refusal to enter into actual debate (instead opting for this hypocritical hatred).

 

[tumor]

I can't believe your ignorance, bigotry, and refusal to enter into actual debate (instead opting for this hypocritical hatred).

I'm not hatefull, people who do things like that are hatefull.What is worst what happened in those few pictures was done by proffesional Israeli Army not by some brainwashed suicide bomber.

 

[jcsd]

You have not subsantiated claims that most attack have come from Hebron, that this has occurred since Israel took control again or that Israel made the claim after that.

Neither have you given references for many other statements previously in this thread.

'Disproprtionate' does not mean most. The Israeli amry never really left Hebron, but they fully re-occuppoed the town at the end of 2002.

Hebron has a popuation of about 75,000 (almost eniterly Palestian), since the reoccupation 10 sucide bombers have strck Israel ain total at least 3 of them from Hebron.

The problem is your expecting me to fill in gaps in your knowledge when it is well know that the Hamas cell in hebron has been one of the most active cells. Basically find it out yourself rather thna relying on site slike US-Israel.

 

[omin]

But guys, you all forgot about one thing,very important thing;who pays Israels bills and gives them military equipment? USA of course,and your tax dollars end up hurting Palestinians.
We have to vote those *******s in White House out of the office or start revolt here, there is no easy way.Democrats or Republicans support Israeli policy 100%.
This country must be awaken from this intellectual coma in which we are now and do what for example French did in 1789 .Revolution is the only answer.

Yes. Anyone here can check there state exports online. Look how high Israel sits compared to others. Check the exports of those other countries compared to Israels.

 

[studentx]

Yes. Anyone here can check there state exports online. Look how high Israel sits compared to others. Check the exports of those other countries compared to Israels.

Thats because the Palestinians live there too, exporting terror.

 

[tumor]

Thats because the Palestinians live there too, exporting terror.

What you talking about?
Palestinians only fight with jews(ocupiers) and maybe some of those mother ****ing "settlers" from New York.

 

[studentx]

What you talking about?
Palestinians only fight with jews(ocupiers) and maybe some of those mother ****ing "settlers" from New York.

Actually, they fight with small Israeli children and pregnant women. That jpg you posted is probably one of the victims of a palestinian serial killer.

 

[tumor]

Both sides lie all the time,but remember Israeli story about Palestinian ambulances carrying home made rockets which of course was totall fabrication. Israelis are masters of deception any way, I never trust them.

 

[member 5645]

Both sides lie all the time,but remember Israeli story about Palestinian ambulances carrying home made rockets which of course was totall fabrication. Israelis are masters of deception any way, I never trust them.

More unvalidated claims on you behalf. No links? Afraid to rebut my posts earlier in this threaD?


Some of you have edged the line, and others crossed it, of pure bigotry and/or antisemitism

 

[jcsd]

More unvalidated claims on you behalf. No links? Afraid to rebut my posts earlier in this threaD?


Some of you have edged the line, and others crossed it, of pure bigotry and/or antisemitism

The problem is phatmonkey there is a general ignorance of the conflict here. The accusation that UN ambulances were used to carry rockets caused a huge furproe both in Israel and internationally, however Isarel later admitted it really did not have evidence that this was the case and what they claimed was a blurrily photgrahed rocket could of equally of been a stretcher.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/484003.html

http://www.turkishpress.com/turkishpress/news.asp?ID=30696


Accustaions of antisemtism have unfortunately almost become completely devalued due to the politcized nature. The IDF have certainly shown a total disregard for human life and should be criticzed on the strongets terms, but I'll so add that some of the patrticualr incodents of wrongdoings illustarted on this thread have not been exclusively carried out by Jewish mebers of the IDF, for example the soldier who admitted shooting children to keep himself amused was infact a Bedouin Arab.

 

[russ_watters]

Those articles are merely propaganda (you could of choosen a less obvious source than US-Israel), there has never been any direct evidnec offered of Palestian miltnats inetinally using Palestina civlains as 'human shields'.

That question is largely moot, since the terrorists use civilians, including women and children as human bombs.

But it does also seem like you are arguing semantics: are you claiming that the terrorists don't ever hide amongst civilians? Say, for example, in camps?

Also you might like to contast the diproptionate number of suicde bombers who have come from Hebron a town where the IDF is solely responsible for law and order and the prevntion of terrorism.

Are you claiming that the terrorists are there because the IDF is there? Does that mean you think its a coincidence that the IDF picked that town to conduct operations in? C'mon - the IDF is there because the terrorists are there, not the other way around.

...they blame the PA for not preventing Hamas carrying out attacks even though they have fialed completely in this task themselves.

Well, the IDF isn't the PA - if the PA wants to claim they have some "A" then they need to show it. Otherwise, what purpose do they serve except to be a mouthpiece for terrorists? Not much point in anyone negotiating with the PA then, is there? Are you also claiming that the only way to keep control/order is by force? If so, doesn't that mean Israel is right for not negotiating since the failure of the talks a few years back?

 

[jcsd]

That question is largely moot, since the terrorists use civilians, including women and children as human bombs.

No it's acrually moot, becauuse it's beeing used to justify israeli attaclks on palestian civlians. In fact the terrorists jhave not used women and children as human bombs; apart form the incident above where the Idf claims that the terorists tried to detonate explosives carried by a young mule, there have been a handful of suicde attacks carried out by 16 and 17 year olds. Groups like Hamas for their part have actually discouraged attacks by those under the age of 18.

But it does also seem like you are arguing semantics: are you claiming that the terrorists don't ever hide amongst civilians? Say, for example, in camps?

Are they in the camps? certainly. Are they in the camps tin order to use civilains as cover? certainly not. In case you haven't noiced we're not tlaking about an organistaion with secret hide-outs inside volcanoes etc. Due to the fac that Paalestians have been ghettoized by the Israelis the areas which Palestians are restricted are some of the most densely populated in the world (In the Gaza Strip we're talking about a popuation density that is getting onto approximately twice that of Washington DC).

Are you claiming that the terrorists are there because the IDF is there? Does that mean you think its a coincidence that the IDF picked that town to conduct operations in? C'mon - the IDF is there because the terrorists are there, not the other way around. Well, the IDF isn't the PA - if the PA wants to claim they have some "A" then they need to show it. Otherwise, what purpose do they serve except to be a mouthpiece for terrorists? Not much point in anyone negotiating with the PA then, is there? Are you also claiming that the only way to keep control/order is by force? If so, doesn't that mean Israel is right for not negotiating since the failure of the talks a few years back?

This exactly the kind of ignorance I was talking about, your unaware of the issue, but your ready to jump in anyway and dogmatically defend Israel.

No they did not choose Hebron because of this reason, infact they never left Hebron in the firts place, there has always beena strong IDf presecnce in the town and they never gave the PA full control over the town, the reason Hebron receives so much attention is the prescence of the settlers there.

The probelm is that on the one hand Israel attacks PA buildings, it's policemna and tries to destroy it's authority, but on the other hand it expects it to deal with groups like Hamas in order to prevent bombings in israel. In fact an Israeli Minister specifcally cited an attack carried out by a bomber from IDF-controlled Hebron as evidence that the PA wer not clamping down on miltants

 

[russ_watters]

Are they in the camps? certainly. Are they in the camps tin order to use civilains as cover? certainly not.

Hiding amongst civilians is a choice they make and that choice is the choice to use human shields. One of the reasons the Geneva conventions exist is to protect civilians in battle and one of the reasons the terrorists are terrorists is they don't follow the Geneva conventions: they hide amongst civilians, they wear civilian clothes, and they carry concealed weapons around civilians. All of those things are against the Geneva conventions specifically because they put civilians in danger. Yes, its a convenient decision to not leave a camp, but the Geneva conventions (and morality itself) are not that generous. Convenience is not an excuse for murder.

This exactly the kind of ignorance I was talking about, your unaware of the issue, but your ready to jump in anyway and dogmatically defend Israel.

No they did not choose Hebron because of this reason, infact they never left Hebron in the firts place...

When, precisely was "the first place?" When did they go to Hebron, and why - and why did they never leave?

The probelm is that on the one hand Israel attacks PA buildings, it's policemna and tries to destroy it's authority, but on the other hand it expects it to deal with groups like Hamas in order to prevent bombings in israel. In fact an Israeli Minister specifcally cited an attack carried out by a bomber from IDF-controlled Hebron as evidence that the PA wer not clamping down on miltants

You're stuck on the idea that the PA needs to be fighting the militants. That's not "Authority." Authority is people listening to you for no other reason than that you have authority. When your mother tells you to wash your hands for dinner, you do it not because you fear a beating, but because she's your mother and you respect her authority. If the PA has no authority, Israel should not be expected to deal with them. And the reason Israel has fought against the PA is pretty simple: the PA has demonstratd that they are, actually, the mouthpiece for terrorists. Quite the opposite of authority, they are a sock-puppet at best.

My question to you is: is there a Palestinian authority? And I don't mean the PA, I mean a real authority. Is there a person or a body that terrorists will actually listen to then he/it tells them to do something? If the answer to that question is no, you know what that means, right? There is only one way to deal with people who won't listen to authority...

 

[tumor]

The probelm is that on the one hand Israel attacks PA buildings, it's policemna and tries to destroy it's authority, but on the other hand it expects it to deal with groups like Hamas in order to prevent bombings in israel. In fact an Israeli Minister specifcally cited an attack carried out by a bomber from IDF-controlled Hebron as evidence that the PA wer not clamping down on miltants

I could not say better my self,100% correct.
I guess you saw what Jewish army did to Palestinian infrastructure?simply barbaric behavior!I have no words for it!
They destroy water and sewer pipes, electric lines not to mention daily humiliation ,and then they are surprised when anger and frusration boils over and Palestinians fight back with all means available.
In those circumstances Palestinians in my view have every right to resist and fight.
Some Palestinians from this frustration might go to far,but we can say thanks to our BIG friend Sharon and his fifth column in the USA.
PS.Jews have also history of heroic uprisings when they were treated almost like Palestinians ,one of the most bloody was Warsaw Jewish ghetto uprising in 1944.Terrorists Hmmm?

 

[jcsd]

Hiding amongst civilians is a choice they make and that choice is the choice to use human shields. One of the reasons the Geneva conventions exist is to protect civilians in battle and one of the reasons the terrorists are terrorists is they don't follow the Geneva conventions: they hide amongst civilians, they wear civilian clothes, and they carry concealed weapons around civilians. All of those things are against the Geneva conventions specifically because they put civilians in danger. Yes, its a convenient decision to not leave a camp, but the Geneva conventions (and morality itself) are not that generous. Convenience is not an excuse for murder. When, precisely was "the first place?" When did they go to Hebron, and why - and why did they never leave? You're stuck on the idea that the PA needs to be fighting the militants. That's not "Authority." Authority is people listening to you for no other reason than that you have authority. When your mother tells you to wash your hands for dinner, you do it not because you fear a beating, but because she's your mother and you respect her authority. If the PA has no authority, Israel should not be expected to deal with them. And the reason Israel has fought against the PA is pretty simple: the PA has demonstratd that they are, actually, the mouthpiece for terrorists. Quite the opposite of authority, they are a sock-puppet at best.

My question to you is: is there a Palestinian authority? And I don't mean the PA, I mean a real authority. Is there a person or a body that terrorists will actually listen to then he/it tells them to do something? If the answer to that question is no, you know what that means, right? There is only one way to deal with people who won't listen to authority...

Your missing the point Russ, they're not delibrately hiding among civilians andf they do not have a choice about whether or not they're in the camps, where else would you expect them to be? I don't think your entirely aware of the geography both polical and physical of the occupied territories. Th emiltants certainly have diregraded sections of the varoous Gneva conventions, but not by being in the camps; Israel has shown nothing but contempt for interantinal humatarian law.

Again you're showing your ignorance, it is Israel that has demanded that the PA clamp down on the militants using force, Iw a spointing out the hypocrisy of this demand. You are ight in the sense that PA no longer has a great amount of authority in the OT, but this is entirely Israel's doing; the Sharon government have pursued a policy of eroding the PA's authority in the teroritroies.

The PA while certainly sympathetic with the terorist groups in some instances is not merely a mouthpiece for them. The internal politics of the PA are complex to say the least, sveral of the PA's mebers are regraded as targets by miltants.

The whole of Palestine including Hebron was under total Israeli martial law (i.e. miltary rule) form 1967 until the mid-1990's, th settlers in Hebron arrived in Hebron in 1967. There has been an Israeli army garrison there since abotu 1968 I believe. The Jewish settlers there are religouis fundmanetalists who are also virulent racists (neraly all of Israel's most famous extremists have hailed form there: Goldstein, Kahane and also I believe the man who assasinated Rabin) and have terrorized the civilians of the town since arriving there. The settlemnt at Hebron was the epicentre for Jewish terrorists groups like Kach and the depravities of the settlers in that town including the 1996 massacre of Muslim worshippers by settler Baruch Goldstein have always made it prime ground for recruitments by Palestinian militants. By the Hebron accords in 1997 most of the town was handed over to Palestian control, but the Israeli army still controlled the old city.

 

[russ_watters]

Your missing the point Russ, they're not delibrately hiding among civilians andf they do not have a choice about whether or not they're in the camps...

I'm sorry, that's just not the way it works. What you are saying is very similar, morally, to the "just following orders" defense at Nurenberg. It fails for the same reason: there is always a choice.

...where else would you expect them to be?

Its a conundrum, surely, but its not my problem, its theirs. They choose to fight, they choose to hide amongst civilians, and they choose to not make themselves identifiable (convenient, isn't it?), so that means they choose to put those civilians in danger. If they choose to stop fighting, those civilians won't be in danger anymore, will they? The problem is that they prefer fighting to trying to find a peaceful solution. Which leads into the next point:

Again you're showing your ignorance, it is Israel that has demanded that the PA clamp down on the militants using force, Iw a spointing out the hypocrisy of this demand. You are ight in the sense that PA no longer has a great amount of authority in the OT, but this is entirely Israel's doing; the Sharon government have pursued a policy of eroding the PA's authority in the teroritroies.

No, its not ignorance - you're missing the point again: the PA and Hamas do talk to each other. But during the US's last attempt to broker a peace deal, Hamas never got onboard with the negotiations, and thus the talks failed.

Israel deals with the PA because they have to deal with someone. But Israel's patience is thin because the supposed authority doesn't really exist: Israel wants to talk to the authority - the entity or person who speaks for the militants and who can broker a deal on behalf of the militants. That should be obvious - Israel's primary concern is getting the terrorism to stop. The PA proports to be that authority but they are not (or, perhaps they are, but they are just being devious...?).

That the PA has to be fighting the militants at all is just further evidence that they have none of the authority hey claim to have - in my view, Israel shouldn't even ackhowledge the PA's existence: they are irrelevant.

But Israel is taking a different tack: trying to get the PA to fight against the terrorists. In my view, that's a losing battle because, it just further decreases the PA's already thin authority. But I understand Israel's logic: they want the PA to show them something - anything to show that they are worth talking to.

Now as to the conflict between the PA and Israel, its sticky: the trouble is the Israelis don't trust the PA. And that's understandable - the PA has shown that it is either inept or actually a front for the terrorists (more likely, a combination of the two).

The PA while certainly sympathetic with the terorist groups in some instances is not merely a mouthpiece for them. The internal politics of the PA are complex to say the least, sveral of the PA's mebers are regraded as targets by miltants.

Yes, it was certainly a lot simpler when it was just Arafat: you could trust him to be nothing more than the voice of Hamas. Now, you have a mixture and Israel doesn't know who to trust.

The whole of Palestine including Hebron was under total Israeli martial law (i.e. miltary rule) form 1967 until the mid-1990's, th settlers in Hebron arrived in Hebron in 1967. There has been an Israeli army garrison there since abotu 1968 I believe.

Ok, and they never left because... the town never settled down after the war?

 

[kat]

th settlers in Hebron arrived in Hebron in 1967

I think you meant returned. As in returned after having been kicked out of the homes their families had lived in for centuries until Jordan occupied Hebron and the Arabs kicked all of the Jews out of all of the Arab countries, and occupied territories...thus giving rise to an increased population in Israel... and amazingly helping to contribute to the growth of the very country they wanted to destroy.

 

[jcsd]

I'm sorry, that's just not the way it works. What you are saying is very similar, morally, to the "just following orders" defense at Nurenberg. It fails for the same reason: there is always a choice. Its a conundrum, surely, but its not my problem, its theirs. They choose to fight, they choose to hide amongst civilians, and they choose to not make themselves identifiable (convenient, isn't it?), so that means they choose to put those civilians in danger. If they choose to stop fighting, those civilians won't be in danger anymore, will they? The problem is that they prefer fighting to trying to find a peaceful solution.

Remeber it is the Israreli army that are doing the most to endanger the lievs of Palestian civlains not Palestian miltants. One of the main problem is that the Palestians have little option on how they can fight the Israelis and with the exception of Labor in the nineties no Isreali government has ever been willing to consider peace.

Which leads into the next point: No, its not ignorance - you're missing the point again: the PA and Hamas do talk to each other. But during the US's last attempt to broker a peace deal, Hamas never got onboard with the negotiations, and thus the talks failed.

Again you prove my point IT IS IGNORANCE, Israel refused to allow Hamas to be involvedint he peace process in anyway during those talks, howvere the PA for their part negoiated a semi-ceasefire with Hamas (in which they agreed not to attack civilian targets in Israel) which Israel refused to recognize officially (though itdid scale back operatins aginst Hamas). However Hamas ended the ceasefire after a Hamas student leader was shot in the back whilst in the custody of the Israeli border police.

Israel deals with the PA because they have to deal with someone. But Israel's patience is thin because the supposed authority doesn't really exist: Israel wants to talk to the authority - the entity or person who speaks for the militants and who can broker a deal on behalf of the militants. That should be obvious - Israel's primary concern is getting the terrorism to stop. The PA proports to be that authority but they are not (or, perhaps they are, but they are just being devious...?).

Isreal though has tried to destroy the PA rather than allow it to be in a psotion where it can meet Israeli demands. If you can't see the hypocrisy in that...

That the PA has to be fighting the militants at all is just further evidence that they have none of the authority hey claim to have - in my view, Israel shouldn't even ackhowledge the PA's existence: they are irrelevant.

But the point is that Sharon, from the very beginning has always tried to undermine the PA, they were certaintly the authority in palestine, but mainly due to the efforts of Israel that is not hte case anymore (you have to rember that Sharon has always been against negoitaing with Palestians and even to get him into the roadmap which he paid only lip service to from the start took major diplomatic pressure from the US who at the time he accused of 'appeasing terror')

But Israel is taking a different tack: trying to get the PA to fight against the terrorists. In my view, that's a losing battle because, it just further decreases the PA's already thin authority. But I understand Israel's logic: they want the PA to show them something - anything to show that they are worth talking to.

Sure that is part of Israel's logic, but the problem is that Israel shgould also support them rather than atatck them if it wants them to do this.

Now as to the conflict between the PA and Israel, its sticky: the trouble is the Israelis don't trust the PA. And that's understandable - the PA has shown that it is either inept or actually a front for the terrorists (more likely, a combination of the two). Yes, it was certainly a lot simpler when it was just Arafat: you could trust him to be nothing more than the voice of Hamas. Now, you have a mixture and Israel doesn't know who to trust. Ok, and they never left because... the town never settled down after the war?

The Palestians do not trust Israel either, so there must be some sort of bilateral movemnt rather than putting the expectaions on the Palestians who after all are more sinnined agianst than sinners. The PA has many problems, but it certainly was not a front for terroirst (though it certainl does have mebers involved in miltant organistaions), Arafat was alawys Israels best chance for peace yet they have tried to destoy him.

And again we come back to my point about you making things up as you go along, they did not leave beacsue of the settlement there (they neve left any of the settlemnts, but the Hebron settelemnt is unique in that it is ditributed throughout a Palestinian town), as simple as that.

 

[jcsd]

I think you meant returned. As in returned after having been kicked out of the homes their families had lived in for centuries until Jordan occupied Hebron and the Arabs kicked all of the Jews out of all of the Arab countries, and occupied territories...thus giving rise to an increased population in Israel... and amazingly helping to contribute to the growth of the very country they wanted to destroy.

The previous settlemnt arrived in the 1830's and left in the 1920's during the race riot (after the Hebron massacre) , the latest settlemnt started in 1967, the vast majority of these settlers had absolutekly no connection with the previous ettlemnt (as evinced by the fact that the previus settelers were Mizari whereas the current settlemnt is predomiantely Ashkenazi immigrants, many from the US).