Is There Any Way to Confirm Your Existence?

[minorwork]

We are the basis of all these. We are that consciousness which is aware of all these changes but it itself is unknown to any of it's byproducts. This consciousness,being the primal thing, it can not be known by mind or any organs. Its like trying to find infinite using the finite.

You've caught my attention with, "This consciousness, being the primal thing..."

Hoffman caught my attention in his short essay (7 paragraphs) at The Edge with just that assessment, consciousness as primal. Ninth one down here: http://www.edge.org/q2005/q05_4.html"

Work in consciousness is being pursued by Donald D. Hoffman. Department of Cognitive Sciences. University of California. Irvine, California 92697. Here is his paper: http://www.cogsci.uci.edu/~ddhoff/ConsciousRealism2.pdf" .

 

[IamWhatIam]

Mr Baywax, I was referring to threadstarter..

Mr Minorwork, thanks for the link of the thesis..Donald D. Hoffman did really make sincere efforts on expounding this puzzle of body-mind issue. Cool to know that you too gave your time for that!

After going through it, i have few ideas to share,, :shy:

Every scientific theory must take something as Fundamental.I feel that consciousness is the basis of all including the brain function and reaction of nurons and not vice versa..Consciousness being the most finer, apparently it is more prevalent and mysterious than the grosser appearances as biological reactions or perceptions etc. Consciousness must be the necessary sub stratrum for any of the other phenomenon and as such I would like to call it as 'beginningless'.

And anything without beginning indicates, it has no end either. If anything has begun at somepoint, it means that it did not exist before that point, it is finite. Consciousness having no beginning and end is infinite.There can not be two infinites either, so whatever exists, is included in this ONE infinite Consciousness.

When it comes to reality, only this consciousness is worth being called Real because it is ever-existing. As such, this world, with all it's names and forms are but a fantastic illusion. If, on the contrary, the world is a self-existent reality (that is what we evidently mean by objectivity), what prevents the world from revealing itself to us in sleep? We do not say 'we did not exist' in our sleep.

One may ask, The world may not be conscious of itself, yet it exists.

Answer is, Consciousness is always Self-consciousness. If you are conscious of anything you are essentially conscious of yourself. Unselfconscious existence is a contradiction in terms. It is no existence at all. It is merely attributed existence, whereas true existence, is not an attribute, it is the substance itself. It is the substratum(Reality). Reality is therefore known being knowledgabe and conscious, and never merely the one to the exclusion of the other. The world neither exists by itself, nor is it conscious of its existence. How can we say that such a world is real?And what is the nature of the world? It is perpetual change, a continuous, interminable flux. A dependent, unselfconscious, ever-changing world cannot be real. thanks for your time

 

[minorwork]

Mr Baywax, I was referring to threadstarter..

Mr Minorwork, thanks for the link of the thesis..Donald D. Hoffman did really make sincere efforts on expounding this puzzle of body-mind issue. Cool to know that you too gave your time for that!

After going through it, i have few ideas to share,, :shy:

Every scientific theory must take something as Fundamental.I feel that consciousness is the basis of all including the brain function and reaction of nurons and not vice versa..Consciousness being the most finer, apparently it is more prevalent and mysterious than the grosser appearances as biological reactions or perceptions etc. Consciousness must be the necessary sub stratrum for any of the other phenomenon and as such I would like to call it as 'beginningless'.

And anything without beginning indicates, it has no end either. If anything has begun at somepoint, it means that it did not exist before that point, it is finite. Consciousness having no beginning and end is infinite.There can not be two infinites either, so whatever exists, is included in this ONE infinite Consciousness.

When it comes to reality, only this consciousness is worth being called Real because it is ever-existing. As such, this world, with all it's names and forms are but a fantastic illusion. If, on the contrary, the world is a self-existent reality (that is what we evidently mean by objectivity), what prevents the world from revealing itself to us in sleep? We do not say 'we did not exist' in our sleep.

One may ask, The world may not be conscious of itself, yet it exists.

Answer is, Consciousness is always Self-consciousness. If you are conscious of anything you are essentially conscious of yourself. Unselfconscious existence is a contradiction in terms. It is no existence at all. It is merely attributed existence, whereas true existence, is not an attribute, it is the substance itself. It is the substratum(Reality). Reality is therefore known being knowledgabe and conscious, and never merely the one to the exclusion of the other. The world neither exists by itself, nor is it conscious of its existence. How can we say that such a world is real?And what is the nature of the world? It is perpetual change, a continuous, interminable flux. A dependent, unselfconscious, ever-changing world cannot be real. thanks for your time

That's pretty darn impressive. How long have you been considering this? I be 58 and except for 31 years mining coal have been considering this stuff since kindergarten or whenever mom run over Snoopy the dog and praying didn't bring him back. That was when I saw what could happen to me if mom squashed me. I studied some physics and got a degree in philosophy and went mining, flying and skydiving.

Subconscious, unconscious, semiconscious, supraconscious, all describe varying degrees or boundaries of types of consciousness. Some boundaries are clear others not so.

Subconscious those things that are imprinted in you from this life, especially from youth, that you may not be aware influences your actions and thoughts in the moment.

Unconscious has built your body from a single cell into the body you have today and keeps it functioning without your direct decisions. Automatic in nature.

Semiconscious dream states resemble watching a movie that you either can or can't become emotionally involved with to varying degrees while being in the scenes.

Supraconscious levels of awareness are those that result from the shutting down of the multimodal interface that encompasses all of the above states. If enough preparation has been done the brain can record sounds and sights without processing to symbols and interpretting the symbols. An AM radio talk show in your native tongue will be a sweet compelling music that draws you to its source. Hearing this without processing is very strange. Concentration and attitude be the keys.

Stranger still is the recording in memory of a conscious experience of turning off that part of the interface that gives the impression of gravity or that part which gives the point of view of experiencing from within the body. Even the dream body can be dropped. Now we're talking some pretty innate fears that have much power and connection to the emotions thru the hormonal functions of the body. These are not trivial and like I said, are innate. The experience of these altered states will not be for long periods. Balance returns as a response to mind generated fear. Almost instantly. Drug free. This is essential. Drugs will only anchor the view to the body and ill effects must be metabolized out, which can take long amounts of time while in a negative state.

Experiences traveling spiritually are not to be mistaken for a having a basis in the reality of the objective world. Spiritual traveling is purely subjective. Some return as fanatics and have difficulty functioning in society. Not necessary, but it happens to those in a hurry.

 

[IamWhatIam]

That's pretty darn impressive. How long have you been considering this? I be 58 and except for 31 years mining coal have been considering this stuff since kindergarten or whenever mom run over Snoopy the dog and praying didn't bring him back. That was when I saw what could happen to me if mom squashed me. I studied some physics and got a degree in philosophy and went mining, flying and skydiving.

Subconscious, unconscious, semiconscious, supraconscious, all describe varying degrees or boundaries of types of consciousness. Some boundaries are clear others not so.

Subconscious those things that are imprinted in you from this life, especially from youth, that you may not be aware influences your actions and thoughts in the moment.

Unconscious has built your body from a single cell into the body you have today and keeps it functioning without your direct decisions. Automatic in nature.

Semiconscious dream states resemble watching a movie that you either can or can't become emotionally involved with to varying degrees while being in the scenes.

Supraconscious levels of awareness are those that result from the shutting down of the multimodal interface that encompasses all of the above states. If enough preparation has been done the brain can record sounds and sights without processing to symbols and interpretting the symbols. An AM radio talk show in your native tongue will be a sweet compelling music that draws you to its source. Hearing this without processing is very strange. Concentration and attitude be the keys.

Stranger still is the recording in memory of a conscious experience of turning off that part of the interface that gives the impression of gravity or that part which gives the point of view of experiencing from within the body. Even the dream body can be dropped. Now we're talking some pretty innate fears that have much power and connection to the emotions thru the hormonal functions of the body. These are not trivial and like I said, are innate. The experience of these altered states will not be for long periods. Balance returns as a response to mind generated fear. Almost instantly. Drug free. This is essential. Drugs will only anchor the view to the body and ill effects must be metabolized out, which can take long amounts of time while in a negative state.

Experiences traveling spiritually are not to be mistaken for a having a basis in the reality of the objective world. Spiritual traveling is purely subjective. Some return as fanatics and have difficulty functioning in society. Not necessary, but it happens to those in a hurry.

LOL. I am 29 and have been pondering these for roughly about 3-4 years..

There is only one state, that of consciousness or awareness or existence.Most likely,the three states of waking, dream and deep sleep cannot be real. They simply come and go. The real will always exist. The "I" or existence that alone persists in all the three states is real. The other three are not real and so it is not possible to say they have such and such degree of reality. We may roughly put it like this, Existence or consciousness is the only reality. Consciousness plus waking, we call waking. Consciousness plus sleep, we call sleep. Consciousness plus dream, we call dream. Consciousness is the screen, on which all the pictures come and go. The screen is real, the pictures are mere shadows on it. Because by long habit, we have been regarding these three states as real, we call the state of mere awareness or consciousness the fourth. There is however, no fourth state, but only one state.

I have read a wonderful yet scientific explanation of sage Ramana of India saying--There is no difference between dream and the waking state except that the dream is short and the waking long. Both are the result of the mind. Because the waking state is long, we imagine that it is our real state. But, as a matter of fact, our real state is Turiya or the fourth state which is always as it is and knows nothing of the three states of waking, dream or deep sleep. Because we call these three states we call the fourth state also SUPERconscious state.But it is not a state but the real and natural state of the Self. When this is realized, we know it is not a fourth state, for a fourth state is only relative, but the transcendent state.

Yes, when in hurry, things will turn crazy and people end up in a mess..when take things in the true light , it is okay

 

[minorwork]

Last year I came upon the work of cognitive scientist http://www.geocities.com/changizi/".

Changizi's insight is that the moving brain is constantly trying to project a tenth of a second into the future and is selected by evolution mechanisms for the best perception of that future. His explanations of the 'whys' and 'wherefors' of illusions are fascinating.
An excerpt from http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?id=understanding-how-our-bra&page=2":

If the dictionary study involves cultural evolution as its driver, then the new work on the visual system involves natural selection–based evolution. Why is it that we need to "perceive the present," as you put it, or see into the future? Animals who move or are in a world that moves around them—as long as there are things moving somehow relative to you—will be selected to have perceptions that are true. We have about a tenth of a second delay between the time light hits the retina and the time of resultant perception, which is considerable given that you move 10 centimeters [four inches] in that amount of time even if you're only walking one meter [3.3 feet] per second. That means that if you didn't compensate for this neural delay, anything you perceive to be within 10 centimeters of passing…. [It] would have just passed you by the time you perceive it. You'd always be seeing the world as it was a tenth of a second earlier and seeing what the world looks like 10 centimeters behind where you in fact are--if you hadn't run into whatever it is you're looking for.

 

[baywax]

That's pretty darn impressive. How long have you been considering this? I be 58 and except for 31 years mining coal have been considering this stuff since kindergarten or whenever mom run over Snoopy the dog and praying didn't bring him back. That was when I saw what could happen to me if mom squashed me. I studied some physics and got a degree in philosophy and went mining, flying and skydiving.

Subconscious, unconscious, semiconscious, supraconscious, all describe varying degrees or boundaries of types of consciousness. Some boundaries are clear others not so.

Subconscious those things that are imprinted in you from this life, especially from youth, that you may not be aware influences your actions and thoughts in the moment.

Unconscious has built your body from a single cell into the body you have today and keeps it functioning without your direct decisions. Automatic in nature.

Semiconscious dream states resemble watching a movie that you either can or can't become emotionally involved with to varying degrees while being in the scenes.

Supraconscious levels of awareness are those that result from the shutting down of the multimodal interface that encompasses all of the above states. If enough preparation has been done the brain can record sounds and sights without processing to symbols and interpretting the symbols. An AM radio talk show in your native tongue will be a sweet compelling music that draws you to its source. Hearing this without processing is very strange. Concentration and attitude be the keys.

Stranger still is the recording in memory of a conscious experience of turning off that part of the interface that gives the impression of gravity or that part which gives the point of view of experiencing from within the body. Even the dream body can be dropped. Now we're talking some pretty innate fears that have much power and connection to the emotions thru the hormonal functions of the body. These are not trivial and like I said, are innate. The experience of these altered states will not be for long periods. Balance returns as a response to mind generated fear. Almost instantly. Drug free. This is essential. Drugs will only anchor the view to the body and ill effects must be metabolized out, which can take long amounts of time while in a negative state.

Experiences traveling spiritually are not to be mistaken for a having a basis in the reality of the objective world. Spiritual traveling is purely subjective. Some return as fanatics and have difficulty functioning in society. Not necessary, but it happens to those in a hurry.

Yes. I was referring to the thread in general.

 

[Qmystic]

Hello Prtcool,

Your basic question: is there any way I can prove your existence?

In my opinion, Yes. Are you looking for scientific proof? If you borrowed the general scientific method of theorizing, formulating a prediction and then designing a test which could falsify your theory, you could either prove I do exist or prove I do not exist. Either way you answer your question.

Shortcoming the process, I am here challenging your thoughts, am I not? If you are sure you exist, is not thinking part of your existence? Was Descartes right "I think, therefore I am"? If so, have I caused you to think? If you respond with either yes or no you had to "think" to arrive at your conclusion, forcing you to ask yourself what caused this thought/response. You at least have some data to process.

Please inform me of your conclusion, that is, if you conclude that I exist.

Qmystic

 

[IamWhatIam]

Last year I came upon the work of cognitive scientist http://www.geocities.com/changizi/".

Changizi's insight is that the moving brain is constantly trying to project a tenth of a second into the future and is selected by evolution mechanisms for the best perception of that future. His explanations of the 'whys' and 'wherefors' of illusions are fascinating.
An excerpt from http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?id=understanding-how-our-bra&page=2":

Thats fascinating, I will have to go through this work.

Mr, Qmystic, I think its correct. All of us do exist though each one creates his own universe. If I say 'I exist' and you don't exist, it is not fair. In that case I am not using same yard stick. If i state some rules / measures for me, why not for all. This issue is the deepest and most puzzling ..the more we think the more we sink seems...

 

[baywax]

Hello Prtcool,

Your basic question: is there any way I can prove your existence?

In my opinion, Yes. Are you looking for scientific proof? If you borrowed the general scientific method of theorizing, formulating a prediction and then designing a test which could falsify your theory, you could either prove I do exist or prove I do not exist. Either way you answer your question.

Shortcoming the process, I am here challenging your thoughts, am I not? If you are sure you exist, is not thinking part of your existence? Was Descartes right "I think, therefore I am"? If so, have I caused you to think? If you respond with either yes or no you had to "think" to arrive at your conclusion, forcing you to ask yourself what caused this thought/response. You at least have some data to process.

Please inform me of your conclusion, that is, if you conclude that I exist.

Qmystic

The argument will be that there is no way to prove the stimulus you are claiming to be you is not simply a neuronal bundle in Qmystic's brain firing and exciting another neuronal bundle in Qmystic's brain.

 

[Qmystic]

Hello baywax,

The argument will be that there is no way to prove the stimulus you are claiming to be you is not simply a neuronal bundle in Qmystic's brain firing and exciting another neuronal bundle in Qmystic's brain.

Your argument would make more sense if the firing of neuronal bundles were in Prtcool's brain, sense he is the only one to be certain of existence.

Meanwhile, why not work on submitting a prediction to test either argument?

Qmystic

 

[a4mula]

What ensures you that you exist? Cogito, ergo sum? Is that the answer?

Our ability to have cognitive thought is not justifiable proof of existence. Our senses, memories and experiences offer no absolute truth to our reality. Perception is all we have. We perceive ourselves as we perceive others. If you exist based on your perception, I must exist as well based on your same perception. If in turn I'm merely a figment of your imagination, or an artificial intelligent NPC populating your world, then it only stands to reason that you in turn are the same. Consciousness and awareness are very poor standards for existence. Within 50 years we'll create machines that are capable of both, yet their existence will be solely in the domain of zeros and ones.

 

[Unthinkable]

"Our ability to have cognitive thought is not justifiable proof of existence."
For you to question your existence you have to be able to think and therefore cognitive thought is justified as a question of what existence is. Existence is proof.

Our senses, memories and experiences offer no absolute truth to our reality.
When you are sensing you are part of reality. The truth is reality because that is what really happened. Thought is fantasy, sensing is reality.

Perception is all we have.
Is there no difference between thinking and reality? Is thinking a sense? Is experiencing a thought? Do you sense with your thoughts? Am I a figment of ...

"We perceive ourselves as we perceive others."
I think everyone is different therefore I do not perceive anybody. I try not to think therefore I am not but I still think when I write on here.

"If you exist based on your perception, I must exist as well based on your same perception."
I exist based on your perception. And thus you exist based on my perception. But existing is not perception and perception is not existing. The word perception originally meant to sense but I think that perception means thinking to you.

"If in turn I'm merely a figment of your imagination, or an artificial intelligent NPC populating your world, then it only stands to reason that you in turn are the same."
"If" is the wrong word to use if you are stating a fact, and this was not the first time for "if".

"Consciousness and awareness are very poor standards for existence."
You perceive therefore you are.

"Within 50 years we'll create machines that are capable of both, yet their existence will be solely in the domain of zeros and ones"
You could be a psychic like Nostradamus

 

[a4mula]

"Our ability to have cognitive thought is not justifiable proof of existence."
For you to question your existence you have to be able to think and therefore cognitive thought is justified as a question of what existence is. Existence is proof.

Our senses, memories and experiences offer no absolute truth to our reality.
When you are sensing you are part of reality. The truth is reality because that is what really happened. Thought is fantasy, sensing is reality.

Perception is all we have.
Is there no difference between thinking and reality? Is thinking a sense? Is experiencing a thought? Do you sense with your thoughts? Am I a figment of ...

"We perceive ourselves as we perceive others."
I think everyone is different therefore I do not perceive anybody. I try not to think therefore I am not but I still think when I write on here.

"If you exist based on your perception, I must exist as well based on your same perception."
I exist based on your perception. And thus you exist based on my perception. But existing is not perception and perception is not existing. The word perception originally meant to sense but I think that perception means thinking to you.

"If in turn I'm merely a figment of your imagination, or an artificial intelligent NPC populating your world, then it only stands to reason that you in turn are the same."
"If" is the wrong word to use if you are stating a fact, and this was not the first time for "if".

"Consciousness and awareness are very poor standards for existence."
You perceive therefore you are.

"Within 50 years we'll create machines that are capable of both, yet their existence will be solely in the domain of zeros and ones"
You could be a psychic like Nostradamus

Does the internet exist? How about a video game avatar? This goes back the brain in a vat paradox, yet today technology has removed the need for the brain, or the vat. I state nothing as fact, hence the reason I like philosophy. My point isn't that we don't exist, because it's difficult to fathom. My only point is that before we ask if others exist, we need to define existence and ourselves first.

 

[Dale]

I state nothing as fact

 

[skippy1729]

I am sure of my own existence as I do have a sense of self. But the question that I am asking is a rather vague one. Do you exist? If the answer is no then the very purpose of asking questions from the non existent is useless. Even all the solutions you give to me are useless. Even the scriptures like the Bible, the Gita also are of no help(afterall even they do not exist.)

What if I am seeing a virtual movie, in which all you people are virtual softwares. All the things that I believe in, all the past that has been told to me, even my own body, everything is just an illusion. I am talking of a supermatrix in which only one man is trapped in an illusion and everything else in the matrix is fake.

Now the question is, "Is there any way to confirm your existence?"

Short answer is no.

It is possible that there is one intelligent, powerful being in existence ... YOU. Out of boredom you have created a delusion of the universe and placed yourself in it. Why don't you have a harem of hundreds of beautiful women, great wealth and power? Well, you tried that the last few times and it was boring stuff too.

You will never know for certain until you die. It can be self destructive to dwell on questions such as these. Forget about it and enjoy the ride.

Best wishes, Skippy

PS Next time around I am going to try some of that "boring stuff".