Is there life in the universe, and if so has it visited Earth?

[Ivan Seeking]

Heh, the swamp gas explanation was an admitted dodge. That came from Hynek when he was still heading up Bluebook for the USAF. He later became a convert and the so-called father of modern ufology.


...not to say that swamp gas have never been the cause of a UFO report. Atmostpheric phenomena are certainly at least one class of UFOs.

 

[baywax]

Heh, the swamp gas explanation was an admitted dodge. That came from Hynek when he was still heading up Bluebook for the USAF. He later became a convert and the so-called father of modern ufology.


...not to say that swamp gas have never been the cause of a UFO report. Atmostpheric phenomena are certainly at least one class of UFOs.

Thanks Ivan. That's good news that Hynek went from totally nonconstructive criticism to investigation. Probably brought some brains to the whole deal.

 

[DaveC426913]

Its always going to be classified as swamp gas..

http://cache.gawker.com/assets/images/io9/2009/10/aaah.jpg



There must be some way to identify if swamp gas is extraterrestrial or not.

That's really cool and really wild and most certainly very rare, but I don't see anything worth getting in a tizzy about.

It's an atmospheric phenomenon. The fact that I've never seen one like this doesn't make me hesitant at all to conclude that that's what it is. It might be a lens cloud, more commonly seen in clear skies. This one just happens to be in an overcast sky. I would guess that the bright ring is an area where the two air masses cause the clouds to get very thin and transparent, and the sun is shining through.

Absolutely, there are some unlikely factors contributing to its existence, but nothing outside the bounds of atmospheric phenomena is required to explain it.

 

[Galteeth]

Not sure if this has been brought up in this very long thread but:

Wouldn't it be a reasonable assumption that if aliens had sufficient technology to travel large interstellar distances, they would also have sufficient stealth technology to prevent us from detecting them? And furthermore that since they have no made effort to contact us, they have no interest in being detected?

In other words, doesn't it seem that it's very unlikely that aliens would be visiting us secretly but get accidentally detected as UFOs?

 

[TurtleMeister]

In other words, doesn't it seem that it's very unlikely that aliens would be visiting us secretly but get accidentally detected as UFOs?

Wouldn't it be very unlikely that if aliens were secretly visiting us that their being detected as UFOs would make any difference?

 

[Galteeth]

Wouldn't it be very unlikely that if aliens were secretly visiting us that their being detected as UFOs would make any difference?

No. If they were indifferent to detection and were visiting us, we would have more reliable evidence of them. If they are making some effort to shield themselves from detection, they would not be detected by random people, pilots, and radar but be undetectable by more substantive methods. In other words, if they were able to be seen by people, photographed, and detectable by radar, what are the odds that more reliable evidence of them wouldn't have turned up by now?

 

[baywax]

Wouldn't it be very unlikely that if aliens were secretly visiting us that their being detected as UFOs would make any difference?

The difference would be that our behaviour would change toward pandemic panic and their observations of our natural state would be spoiled.

 

[TurtleMeister]

No. If they were indifferent to detection and were visiting us, we would have more reliable evidence of them. If they are making some effort to shield themselves from detection, they would not be detected by random people, pilots, and radar but be undetectable by more substantive methods. In other words, if they were able to be seen by people, photographed, and detectable by radar, what are the odds that more reliable evidence of them wouldn't have turned up by now?

The difference would be that our behaviour would change toward pandemic panic and their observations of our natural state would be spoiled.

The point of my question was to emphasize that UFO's do not qualify as evidence. And the aliens would know that.

Conversation aboard alien craft:

alien1 to alien2: Should we really do this experiment. What about the Prime Directive? Will not the earthlings be able to detect us?

alien2 to alien1: Don't worry. We will look like swamp gas. And even if someone does see too much, who would believe them?

 

[Ivan Seeking]

We need to end this line of discussion as it is far too speculative. It is fair to say we cannot anticipate with confidence the motives or thought processes of any ET species, should they exist.

When we can explain the motives and actions of teenagers, then we can talk about ET.

 

[TurtleMeister]

We need to end this line of discussion as it is far too speculative. It is fair to say we cannot anticipate with confidence the motives or thought processes of any ET species, should they exist.

When we can explain the motives and actions of teenagers, then we can talk about ET

Sorry, my post was meant to be partly for humor.

 

[baywax]

Anyone seen this? I had no idea the research goes as far back as 1949

http://www.nicap.org/waves/1949fullrep.htm

 

[Galteeth]

Anyone seen this? I had no idea the research goes as far back as 1949

http://www.nicap.org/waves/1949fullrep.htm

Sure. The US government had to take the UFO threat pretty seriously. Keep in mind, this was the time of the cold war, where violations of US air space represented existential threats.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Anyone seen this? I had no idea the research goes as far back as 1949

http://www.nicap.org/waves/1949fullrep.htm

Checkout the Napster at the top of the S&D main page. Project Sign began in 1947, before Grudge.

 

[Blenton]

How disheartening would it be to discover over millennia of searching for life that we are the first that has evolved from the galaxy. The possibility is there.

 

[WhoWee]

How disheartening would it be to discover over millennia of searching for life that we are the first that has evolved from the galaxy. The possibility is there.

If you think of our existence as a 10,000 year cycle - how many comparable cycles are possible (& how long have permissable conditions existed somewhere in the Universe)?

 

[CEL]

If you think of our existence as a 10,000 year cycle - how many comparable cycles are possible (& how long have permissable conditions existed somewhere in the Universe)?

From where did you get the idea of a 10,000 year cycle? Homo sapiens is here for around 150 kyears, civilization has 12 000 years and technological civilization around 100 years.

 

[WhoWee]

From where did you get the idea of a 10,000 year cycle? Homo sapiens is here for around 150 kyears, civilization has 12 000 years and technological civilization around 100 years.

No problem, consider a 150,000 year cycle. How many potential cycles have there been SOMEWHERE?

 

[VooDooX]

No problem, consider a 150,000 year cycle. How many potential cycles have there been SOMEWHERE?

the point is probability aside there's a chance even if ever so small that we are the first.. there has to be a first and maybe just maybe we are it however unlikely it also has to be considered

 

[CEL]

No problem, consider a 150,000 year cycle. How many potential cycles have there been SOMEWHERE?

If humanity is wiped out, 150 kyears is not enough for evolution to work out another intelligent species on Earth.
If only civilization is completely destroyed (we are doing well for that!) 10 000 years would be enough to reconstruct it. The problem is that we have no evidence of civilizations preceding our own.
If you are saying that ours is the first civilization on Earth and others will succeed and be destroyed in intervals of 10 000 years, this is only a speculation.

 

[WhoWee]

If humanity is wiped out, 150 kyears is not enough for evolution to work out another intelligent species on Earth.
If only civilization is completely destroyed (we are doing well for that!) 10 000 years would be enough to reconstruct it. The problem is that we have no evidence of civilizations preceding our own.
If you are saying that ours is the first civilization on Earth and others will succeed and be destroyed in intervals of 10 000 years, this is only a speculation.

Unless ALL life was wiped out on Earth, I don't know why 150,000 years wouldn't be enough time.

However, my question is how many potential cycles of 150,000 years have been possible - that is conditions may have been conducive to sustaining life somewhere/anywhere in the Universe. Given the time since BB, has it been 2 billion years, 1 billion, or 570 million (the time before our dinosaurs - Cambrian) years - what is the estimate for when conditions SOMEWHERE would have first been suitable?

 

[DaveC426913]

Unless ALL life was wiped out on Earth, I don't know why 150,000 years wouldn't be enough time.

150K years is how long it took for H.sapiens to develop high intelligence from the already existing intelligent (societal) humanoids walking the Earth.

There are no creatures anywhere near the intelligence of H. habilis et al from which to develop high intelligence - unless you look to the apes (which would be simply repeating the same steps). And even that is several million years.

 

[DaveC426913]

Given the time since BB, has it been 2 billion years, 1 billion, or 570 million (the time before our dinosaurs - Cambrian) years - what is the estimate for when conditions SOMEWHERE would have first been suitable?

Surely not before the creation of Population I high-metallicity stars. That puts the first potential for life fairly recent in the universe's life.

 

[CEL]

150K years is how long it took for H.sapiens to develop high intelligence from the already existing intelligent (societal) humanoids walking the Earth.

There are no creatures anywhere near the intelligence of H. habilis et al from which to develop high intelligence - unless you look to the apes (which would be simply repeating the same steps). And even that is several million years.

I agree. The common ancestor between H. Sapiens and apes is thought to have existed 5 million years ago. Apes have evolved from that ancestor and have not developed intelligence after those million years. Even if humanity disapeared, it is not sure that some ape could evolve to an intelligent being.

 

[N468989]

Could it be possible that some being greatly more advanced than us evolve in a few days on any other place in the universe and completely wipe us out? It's like what we are to insect's and animals. So much more power. Just to imagine that the rate of evolution of life in another place could be unimaginable. One day of our life could mean millions of years of evolution for another life form in another time-space dimension.

Tomorrow we could have life visiting Earth that was created yesterday... with power much greater than ours.

In our understanding of things, we are still yet to be created, we know nothing.

The question to the thread would be: Is there, can there be, has there ever been, other life in the universe.

 

[DaveC426913]

...imagine that the rate of evolution of life in another place could be unimaginable. One day of our life could mean millions of years of evolution for another life form...

The universe is made of the same 92+ elements. By and large, the chemistry everywhere in the universe is constrained by this.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

In the Jan edition of Scientific American

Looking for Life in the Multiverse
Universes with different physical laws might still be habitable

 

[VooDooX]

apparently scientists announced today they are really rethinking that meteor that had the thing the looked like microscopic bacteria from Mars basically saying the only option is its a biological property and if thsi rock was on Earth they would have no problem classifying it as such


ALH84001 is this meteor I am sure everyone remembers it

http://www.physorg.com/news180264793.html"

“For many years, the presence of the specific kind of nanomagnetite formed by magnetotactic bacteria on Earth have been completely accepted as a biosignature when found in any Earth sediment or rock,” Thomas-Keprta said, noting that these magnetite have very specific properties.

“When we first documented these specific properties in the ALH84001 carbonates, the only alternate non-biologic hypothesis that was commonly accepted as viable was the thermal decomposition of iron-bearing carbonate,” she said. “Now that we have completely falsified this hypothesis with this latest paper, we are still left with the specific properties of the ALH84001 magnetite that, if found on Earth, would be a robust biosignature indicating production by bacteria.

“We also point to the many discoveries since our original paper showing supporting evidence such as an early strong magnetic field on Mars (necessary for the development of magnetotactic bacteria); the presence of near surface water at many locations on current-day Mars; the presence of possible oceans, major drainage channels, and other features associated with an early wet Mars; and the recent evidence for variable releases of methane into the Martian atmosphere. . . . We do not believe it is too incautious to restate our original hypothesis that such magnetites constitute strong evidence of early life on Mars.”

ALSO on the moon?!
http://spacefellowship.com/2009/12/16/signs-of-life-detected-on-the-moon/"

Surendra Pal, associate director of the Indian Space Research Organization (ISRO) Satellite Centre says that Chandrayaan-1 picked up signatures of organic matter on parts of the Moon’s surface. “The findings are being analyzed and scrutinized for validation by ISRO scientists and peer reviewers,” Pal said.

At a press conference Tuesday at the American Geophysical Union fall conference, scientists from NASA’s Lunar Reconnaissance Orbiter also hinted at possible organics locked away in the lunar regolith. When asked directly about the Chandrayaan-1 claim of finding life on the Moon, NASA’s chief lunar scientist, Mike Wargo, certainly did not dismiss the idea but said, “It is an intriguing suggestion, and we are certainly very interested in learning more of their results.”

Life seems to be pretty common indeed if 3 objets in our solar-system alone have it
what you guys think?

 

[Schrodinger's Dog]

In the Jan edition of Scientific American

I love this thread, I started it ages ago thinking it'd run maybe a few weeks at best and here we are two and a half years later and people are still posting fascinating stuff.

Ivan must be pleased with this zombie thread.

^ I heard about that on the news, interesting stuff.

Keep it up folks, gj.

 

[DaveC426913]

Welcome back, SchroDog.

 

[DaveC426913]

ALSO on the moon?!
http://spacefellowship.com/2009/12/16/signs-of-life-detected-on-the-moon/"



Life seems to be pretty common indeed if 3 objets in our solar-system alone have it
what you guys think?

Well, there's a fairly big gap between organic compounds and life. But cool nonetheless.

 

[VooDooX]

well mainly the Mars thing excites me as they have no other pluasible explanation left other then life so if that's true the answer to this thread is .. yes but fossilized :)

 

[Schrodinger's Dog]

Welcome back, SchroDog.

Thanks I been wondering and wandering around the forum deserts swatting up on me philosophising and physics and stuff. But figured it was time to come back to the oasis.

Well, there's a fairly big gap between organic compounds and life. But cool nonetheless.

Dave you're a star in this thread thanks for posting too many other MVPs to mention but props to Ivan too.

 

[HarryDaniels]

UFOs

What is the oppinion on UFOs and aliens visiting earth. I stand very on the side of against them coming here for a number of reasons, but it would be interesting to see what everyone elses take on it is. My reasons are:

Speed vs energy
Assuming that aliens could travel a very high speed, such as light speed, the amount of energy needed to raise something the size of a form of space travel to that speed for 4 years, assuming that there is a planet populated that orbits proximus centuri, would be infinate. You would also then need more energy to sustain it at this speed.

Time
As we know, time slows down for those going at a higher speed. Now, again assuming that these aliens can travel at the speed of light, they would be going far slower in time. Perhaps many millions of years behind us if hey were far away. And the likelyhood of them existing suggests that they are very far away.

Distance
Assuming again that the aliens could get to us and could travel at light speed, they could be far even for light, perhaps on the other side of the galaxy. In which case, it would take them, even at light speed, 100,000 years (give or take). I highly doubt that they would live that long and also, if theey are, they have to supply the energy and have an energy store, high enough to sustain light speed for 100,000 years.

These evidence, to me, proove that aliens haven't visited us. However, I am not an expert on the subject and would like to know what others think. Please share with me, or us, your thoughts on space travel.

 

[mgb_phys]

What is the oppinion on UFOs and aliens visiting earth.

Why would they visit us in person?
You build 1000 space probes, shoot them off toward nearby G type stars.
When one arrives it builds a bunch of planetary probes to examine any habitable planets.
It then builds 1000 copies of itself and sends them off to a further set of G type stars.

Even if takes the probe a 1000 years to reach the next star and a year to build each copy of itself within a few million years you have a probe in orbit around every habitable planet in the galaxy

(search for Von Neumann machines)

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Why would they visit us in person?
You build 1000 space probes, shoot them off toward nearby G type stars.
When one arrives it builds a bunch of planetary probes to examine any habitable planets.
It then builds 1000 copies of itself and sends them off to a further set of G type stars.

Even if takes the probe a 1000 years to reach the next star and a year to build each copy of itself within a few million years you have a probe in orbit around every habitable planet in the galaxy

(search for Von Neumann machines)

This paper [published in the JBIS], makes the point that it makes the most sense to look for probes, not ET.
http://www.ufoskeptic.org/JBIS.pdf

The last two posts were merged with this thread.