Is This Professor's Response Justified or Condescending?

[Shackleford]

I don't see what the big deal is about mentioning his name. You could probably look up his salary if you wanted.

 

[HeLiXe]

Hi planethunter,

I can definitely understand you being upset and some of his comments were a bit rude, but I think the fact that he is considering your question and giving you a response as he did (minus the rudeness) is actually a good thing.

If he is so busy and I am wasting his time, why did he go through the trouble of composing such a well thought email labeling my request as naïve?

It seems to me that he was trying to steer your thinking in the right direction...to think like a science student and a graduate student. He actually seems like someone who is interested in your success and he would probably be a very good mentor.

Exactly! You took the words right out of my mouth. I am probably going to reject their admission offer after this. It's not worth the headache

I don't think you should do this until you've calmed down and weighed out all of your options.

Should I send his response email to the dept chair (who is a nicer professor and person) requesting guidance on how to respond to his email and also to get her opinion on it?

I don't think this is advisable because you will portray yourself as not knowing how to handle minor conflicts.

As I mentioned previously, I wanted to know if given my mathematics background, coupled with a few physics courses, if he foresaw me being able to understand/do well in his modern optics course. The prerequisites for the course were not that far out of my reach, and I had asked this question to other professors as well regarding graduate courses that I was interested in taking but had not taken prerequisites for. He was the only professor that provided me this kind of response. Once again, if you read my previous responses, I did not want to send him a long, drawn out email with course grades, transcripts etc. because it would be too much for him to read. Maybe he would have read it, but how was I supposed to know that? I wanted to make it short in order to initiate the dialogue, but I definitely did not do it to solicit a response like the one he gave me!

Well, I think probably it would have been better to let him know you are interested in the course and you would like to know if the course is right for you, etc. He actually can't tell you if you will do well or not, no matter what information you give him, but he can guide you as to what you will need to do to be successful in his class. Maybe you can get a past syllabus from him and review it yourself to see how you feel about it. In any event he seems interested in knowing more about you which is a good thing :)

Congrats on earning your bachelor's, and all the best with your masters :)

 

[HeLiXe]

I am going to continue forward, brush this off, and continue my pursuit of physics knowledge…

Just wanted to note I did not see this before I posted my previous response

 

[fss]

I don't think the response was uncalled for at all. If he hadn't answered you at all you would have complained as well, and as has been pointed out numerous times the answer is honest and the question was crafted as to leave little alternative.

 

[flyingpig]

It's going to be so funny if he is reading this right now

 

[eliya]

Who cares. Future prospective students can read this and make up their own mind and avoid him if they want.

But the point we're making here is that one shouldn't make up their mind because of an email like that. There are websites (or maybe just one) where people can rate professors. Those would be the first place I'd go to if I wanted to find out about how good a professor is and if I should avoid him/her.

I don't see what the big deal is about mentioning his name. You could probably look up his salary if you wanted.

Some people wouldn't think it's a good deal and some people would think that it is. You don't know how big a deal it is for him. He might be very cautious about people finding out about his personal life. If you can find out exactly how much he makes per year, then it's probably something he agreed to.
The poster omitted his real name from the correspondence he copied here, so it makes sense he'll remove the professor's real name as well.

Lastly, I've seen a whole internet war starting because someone bad mouthed someone else on a message board. The person that was bad mouthed wasn't a member of that message board and registered only to argue with that person. That person found out about that thread because he had a feed that updated him every time there was a new result on google for his name. Of course it's a long shot that this professor have such a feed, but you better be safe than sorry. You want to be on your professor's good side.

This post wasn't directed to the OP.

 

[ZapperZ]

I don't know. Maybe things and the way things are done have changed since I was last in school, that people no longer want to talk face-to-face and would rather exchange e-mail instead. I can certainly see the convenience of the latter, being that the person being e-mailed to can read it as his/her own leisure, no matter where he/she is.

Still, when I was a senior, I wanted to take a graduate level class, but I wasn't sure if I have sufficient knowledge for it. Granted, back then, we didn't have e-mail for everyone. But still, I think I would have rather make an appointment to talk personally to the instructor (which was what I did), and get his opinion on the matter. He certainly asked me a bunch of pertinent questions to evaluate my capability. And there are many more intangibles that I'm guessing that one could get simply via a face-to-face conversation. Often, things just don't come out the way one intended in an e-mail (or forum post).

I would advice you that, next time when you are faced with a similar situation, try and talk to the person, rather than sending an e-mail that (i) devoid of the necessary details, (ii) could instead trigger an annoyance to the other party.

Zz.

 

[Borek]

Name removed from all posts.

If I have missed it somewhere, PM me.

 

[marcusl]

If you want to continue (your choice...), you might write him back thanking him for pointing out something you just didn't think of, and ask him if he'd instead provide you with information that you could use to make your own assessment. For instance:
what are the prerequisites, with what texts? (e.g., E&M with Griffiths?)
What text(s) will he teach from, what chapters, and perhaps would he share the course syllabus (if it's not available online)?

Since he seems to be very logical, this approach might meet with a very different response.
Then you can decide if you have the prereqs or need to do some remedial studying; and, by looking at the book, decide for yourself if you'll be lost or not.

 

[Ryker]

I don't know. Maybe things and the way things are done have changed since I was last in school, that people no longer want to talk face-to-face and would rather exchange e-mail instead. I can certainly see the convenience of the latter, being that the person being e-mailed to can read it as his/her own leisure, no matter where he/she is.

Still, when I was a senior, I wanted to take a graduate level class, but I wasn't sure if I have sufficient knowledge for it. Granted, back then, we didn't have e-mail for everyone. But still, I think I would have rather make an appointment to talk personally to the instructor (which was what I did), and get his opinion on the matter. He certainly asked me a bunch of pertinent questions to evaluate my capability. And there are many more intangibles that I'm guessing that one could get simply via a face-to-face conversation. Often, things just don't come out the way one intended in an e-mail (or forum post).

I would advice you that, next time when you are faced with a similar situation, try and talk to the person, rather than sending an e-mail that (i) devoid of the necessary details, (ii) could instead trigger an annoyance to the other party.

Zz.

That is actually excellent advice.

 

[Shackleford]

But the point we're making here is that one shouldn't make up their mind because of an email like that. There are websites (or maybe just one) where people can rate professors. Those would be the first place I'd go to if I wanted to find out about how good a professor is and if I should avoid him/her.




Some people wouldn't think it's a good deal and some people would think that it is. You don't know how big a deal it is for him. He might be very cautious about people finding out about his personal life. If you can find out exactly how much he makes per year, then it's probably something he agreed to.
The poster omitted his real name from the correspondence he copied here, so it makes sense he'll remove the professor's real name as well.

Lastly, I've seen a whole internet war starting because someone bad mouthed someone else on a message board. The person that was bad mouthed wasn't a member of that message board and registered only to argue with that person. That person found out about that thread because he had a feed that updated him every time there was a new result on google for his name. Of course it's a long shot that this professor have such a feed, but you better be safe than sorry. You want to be on your professor's good side.

This post wasn't directed to the OP.

In Texas, since the professors are paid by the state, you can look up their salary information. I'm not sure if it's the same for the OP's state, but it might be. Still, I personally would err on the side of caution and not post the name.

 

[Troponin]

While his response could use a bit of "tact", his point is something we have tried to instill on here, i.e. you can't simply ask something without providing ample background information. This applies to people asking question about some things that they don't understand in science (what is your educational level, or what do you already know so that we won't give you an answer way beyond what you could comprehend). The person who is seeking help needs to be able to put him/herself in the shoes of the other person and figure out what that person needs to be able to make an informed response.

The e-mail you sent him is very vague. Maybe he was inundated with other things, maybe he was busy, or maybe he was having a very bad day, to give you that kind of a response. But still, he might hold the key or the answer to what you need. Apologize to him for not giving him ample information, and if you still wish to pursue an answer, provide him with as much information as you can, such as

1. What level of E&M did you take? What grade did you get?
2. What was your graduating GPA? What was the cumulative GPA of the math/physics courses?
3. Have you taken advanced undergraduate Optics classes? You can't expect to jump into a graduate level Optics class with just an understanding of undergraduate E&M!

etc.. etc.

Put yourself in his shoes and figure out what he would need to give you an informed answer based on your qualification and what you know.

Zz.

The problem with that is that many professors don't like reading "novels." In my experience, you have to be as terse as possible when emailing a professor with a question.

If you write too much (even when you feel it is necessary information), you often get one of two "responses."
1) A limited response that clearly shows the professor didn't read your "novel."
2) no response at all (i.e., "I'm not reading a novel...if you want a response, keep it short and sweet.")

Professors are busy, and they (understandably) don't have all day to read and respond to every long winded question that students may have. I'm not a professor, but my response to that email would be something along the lines of "you should be comfortable with the mathematics, but will likely have some deficiency with the "physics." With your math background, you should be able to spend more of your time focusing on the actual physics. If you feel this will give you enough time to "keep up" with any physics deficiencies, then you're welcome to register for the class."

I'm not a pompous *** though.If I were to OP, I'd probably reply with an overly detailed "Curriculum Vitae" that gave an exact representation of my "abilities."
I'd imagine the professor would be too busy attending to his own pomposity to realize that reading and responding to the detailed email would be even more time consuming.

 

[nlsherrill]

Yeah that was a really ******* response. If I were you I wouldn't say screw it altogether, but there's a pretty good chance I wouldn't take his class after an email like that. If he's already this nuts in an email, I can't imagine what he would do if you asked for more partial credit on a problem. Like others have said, some of what he said is true, but there really isn't an excuse for treating a student who is interested in YOUR class like that. I have spoken to many professors about courses I wanted to take in the future and gave them no more information than what you gave him and they were very kind, open, honest, and thoughtful in their responses.

Even so, I think you probably gave him enough information to make a decent guess at how you would do in an optics course. If you already got a degree in math, then clearly you have strong problem solving skills, and you have taken physics courses before, so it would be MY guess that if you applied yourself then you should be able to get at least a B. But I'm no ******* optics professor. Don't let this guy get you down.

 

[TomServo]

I asked a professor for advice on whether he thought I would do well in his course given my limited coursework. This is his response:

” Dear Mr. ...,

As a science student you should know that to establish
a trend line you would need to provide many data points.
With your expectation of an answer from me based on
insufficient data I would have to conclude that you
would not be able to do well in the course.

BS in math from CSULB in 2005. How do I know how much you
still remember? What is your GPA?
Taken up to E&M at the undergraduate level. I would guess
you did PHYS 151 and 152. What were the grades? How much
do you remember?

Have you ever thought that you need to provide more information
for someone to evaluate or predict what you can do in the
graduate optics course? Or, you just don't care. Let me
put something out and let him (that's me) figure out. Let's
waste his time not mind. You are an amazing student!”


I think this guy is a condescending prick for responding this way. I had been admitted into his university’s graduate program, but after this response, am thinking about backing out and take my talents elsewhere.

Thoughts?

Hey, at least he responded. Lots of universities and professors don't seem to have discovered how to reply to an email yet.

 

[jbunniii]

I agree that the professor was an obnoxious jerk in his e-mail. In private industry, you could forward that e-mail to the HR department and the guy would at minimum be sent to "sensitivity training." But academia seems to attract a lot of ogres, and it's best to get used to it sooner rather than later if you plan to spend time there.

 

[planethunter]

Good morning everyone again. After taking everybody's suggestions into consideration, I responded to him this morning after he actually sent me a second email before I even had responded to his first a-hole email. From latest to earliest:
_________________________

(this is his second response)
“Mr. _____,

Normally, for a student to take graduate courses
in Physics the student should have completed all
the requirements for a B.S. degree in Physics.
Since you apparently have not, not taking graduate
physics courses would be logical step to take.

You do not need to apologize for anything. It is my
job to help students. Nothing is a burden for me.
My advice is that you need to take most of upper-division
physics courses to prepare you for graduate physics
courses. The Graduate Advisor should be able to guide
you in this regard.

Good luck,

Dr. ______”



(the email below was my response to his second email)

“Hello Dr. ______,
Thank you for the information. I apologize if I inconvenienced you with my original request. I purposefully sent a short email in order not to burden you with a long drawn out essay giving you my profile along with multiple attachments that would take too much of your time to go through. I know that your time is limited, but please understand that it was not my intention to put the burden of proof on you regarding assessing my qualifications. A short, general email on my part I thought might illicit a short, general response on your part- without going into too much details.
I had been in contact with the graduate advisor over the past months, but thought I could obtain a better idea from you of what I could expect from the modern optics course. I will be meeting with the graduate advisor early next month to discuss the courses I will be taking next semester.
Thank you once again for taking the time to read both of my emails and have a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year.

______”

(this email below is the second email he sent me this morning before I had even responded to his a-hole email)
“Mr. _______,

You need to make an appointment to discuss what
you should take with the Physics Graduate Advisor.

Dr._____”

 

[jbunniii]

(this is his second response)
“Mr. _____,

Normally, for a student to take graduate courses
in Physics the student should have completed all
the requirements for a B.S. degree in Physics.
Since you apparently have not, not taking graduate
physics courses would be logical step to take.

You do not need to apologize for anything. It is my
job to help students. Nothing is a burden for me.
My advice is that you need to take most of upper-division
physics courses to prepare you for graduate physics
courses. The Graduate Advisor should be able to guide
you in this regard.

Good luck,

Dr. ______”

That sounds entirely reasonable. You must have caught him in a sour mood the first time and/or your polite follow-up chilled him out a bit. Or maybe the tone of his first e-mail was supposed to be different from how it came across. Anyway, his advice sounds good.

 

[ZapperZ]

I think this response by the professor has clearly proven those who think he is the devil is wrong. When we judge someone by one incident without knowing everything else on the other side of the coin, we will inevitably make an erroneous conclusion.

You have also shown a very mature approach, and I'm guessing that this little incident will be something valuable that you've learned. At this stage of your academic life, it is never a good step to burn any bridges the way some responders have indicated in this thread. These professors are not at your mercy. You are. You cannot afford to burn any bridges, because it is not uncommon for someone who initially you do not like who will turn out to be your strongest champion.

So, well done. You've done the most sensible thing and clarified your position. I'm sure this professor will feel a bit of regret for going off on you like that, and maybe he'll learn a thing or two about handling something similar in the future.

Zz.

 

[Borek]

Glad to read it ended this way.

 

[Pengwuino]

I'm sorry but if you don't think this guy is an jerk for answering an earnest question with such spite, well I don't know. Something about physics seems to attract a subset of people with abrupt and dislikable personalities- people who "get off" on seeing themselves as superior to others. Not all physicists but a large minority.

Do not take a class with this guy! And if his attitude is general of the department run from the school. Even if he has a point- you simply don't deal with people that way- especially complete strangers.

I'm amazed how people responding could possibly be supportive of the way the professor responded, regardless what was asked.

While the professors response could have been a little nicer, consider this. Professors are inundated with questions from students 1000 times worse than the email the OP sent. The OPs email could have been written better, but you must consider what your average professor has to deal with. I personally got a few emails this semester from students asking me where our department office is even though the night before I had told them it was LITERALLY right below the lab room we were in (If you got a pick-axe and started beating on the floor, you would have fallen right into it!). And apparently, the stupidity level of the students I have had don't compare to the stupidity level other instructors report.

The point is, professors have to deal with people who have the communicative skill slightly above a high schooler. It's tough to be too hard on the professor for this sort of response. Of course, again, he could have made an effort to write the e-mail in a more professional manner though.

 

[Pengwuino]

Oh damn how did I end up responding to something 3 pages earlier.

You know what woudl be funny? If that professor was on this board and saw this letter...

 

[flyingpig]

Oh damn how did I end up responding to something 3 pages earlier.

You know what woudl be funny? If that professor was on this board and saw this letter...

I said that before you, no one laughed at it, no one should laughed at yours either, I TAKE ALL THE CREDIT.

 

[planethunter]

You've done the most sensible thing and clarified your position. I'm sure this professor will feel a bit of regret for going off on you like that, and maybe he'll learn a thing or two about handling something similar in the future.

Thank you all for the excellent advice. I am VERY glad it turned out ok and that I did not burn any bridges.

 

[HeLiXe]

I'm happy to know that everything ended up well :)

 

[negru]

have a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year.

Terrible mistake number two. Maybe he's jewish?

 

[planethunter]

Terrible mistake number two. Maybe he's jewish?

How am I supposed to know that? My intentions were not to offend, so there was no harm done

 

[negru]

But you broke the holy law of PCness.

They might let you live this time but you better watch it. Just keep to "happy holidays", that's what I've learned.

 

[planethunter]

But you broke the holy law of PCness.

They might let you live this time but you better watch it. Just keep to "happy holidays", that's what I've learned.

I smell a troll

 

[Phyisab****]

I smell a troll

Calling someone a troll on this forum is punishable by death.

 

[berkeman]

I smell a troll

I believe he's just kidding around, but he also has an interesting point about the PC-ness of wishing a stranger Merry Christmas. It shouldn't be an issue in most cases, but I can see his point of sticking with Happy Holidays. Whatever.

 

[planethunter]

I believe he's just kidding around, but he also has an interesting point about the PC-ness of wishing a stranger Merry Christmas. It shouldn't be an issue in most cases, but I can see his point of sticking with Happy Holidays. Whatever.

Thanks for the heads up. I guess we have to always be politically/"religiously" correct :)

 

[Shackleford]

Thanks for the heads up. I guess we have to always be politically/"religiously" correct :)

No, we don't.

 

[Ryker]

Well, I guess this is what it comes down to these days. It seems it is acceptable and perfectly normal to respond to a stranger's polite question with a sarcastic and harsh response, but god forbid you wish him a Merry Christmas! Anything but that, please!

 

[cdotter]

edit: Oh it worked out. Never mind my suggestion.

 

[zpconn]

The guy is a jerk. His latest reply to you does nothing to change that. In fact, he even made an obvious lie in his latest response. "Nothing burdens me." Yeah, right. He totally acted like he wasn't burdened by the original email the OP sent him.

I'm just a student myself, but I've interacted with enough professors on a variety of different levels to know that the good professors would never under any circumstances write an email like the original reply he sent you.

A good professor would have written something like this, which would have taken LESS TIME AND EFFORT than the reply he actually composed:

"Thank you for contacting me. I'd be glad to help you decide whether to take this course, but in the interest of making my response as helpful as it could be I kindly ask you to please send me more information about your background, including grades, how long it's been since you graduated, [insert very brief description of other info he wants.]

Best wishes and welcome to the program,
Dr. _____"

If he really didn't even want to answer the question at all, no matter how much information the OP replied (and this appears to be the case), he could have written

"Dear ____,

Thank you for contacting me. My honest opinion is that I cannot offer you any realistic advice on whether you should take the course; I simply do not know you and your background well enough. I apologize and understand this is not the response you were looking for, but I hope you can appreciate that I don't want to take any risk of misleading you and feel it is safer for you that I should refrain from offering specific advice at this time.

[The professor could offer to meet in person in his office at a time convenient for him, or could recommend the OP go see the graduate advisor, or a number of other options here.]

Best wishes and welcome to the program!
Dr. _____"

As it stands, both the OP and the professor would have been better served if the professor had not replied at all.

I would avoid him and his classes at all costs.

If any of you think this is acceptable behavior for a professor towards a student, then I guess you haven't had the honor of being acquainted with some of the wonderful professors who have been my teachers and who would never address a student like this.

Just because some behavior occurs a lot in some sector of life doesn't mean it's justified or acceptable or morally okay. I'm absolutely shocked to find how many people here don't understand this.

Should I one day be in the position of this professor, I hope I remember this thread and avoid his example.