Is Unconscious Collective Prejudice Among White People a Reality?

[Wardw]

At the risk of being flamed, I am going to throw this into the arena for discussion, for the issue seriously concerns me, so here goes. First to qualify:
I am a white Australian of 44. I have traveled the world extensively always as a backpacker. This keeps my feet firmly on the ground and is a far more pleasurable experience than hotel lobby to hotel lobby type travel. You just seem to meet the nicest people this way. I've traveled through many continents including Europe, Africa (was there for the 94 elections, God Bless Nelson Mandela, what a spirit) and many more. I have lived in Brasil for 11 years now.
And here is the point:
I have come to the sad conclusion after all these years that we white people seem to be born with an unconscious prejudice against our brethren of color. Yes even those of us who declare ourselves to be non racists.

I have thought long and hard about this, and it is the only reason I can think of to explain the fact that in every country whose population comprises a mix of races, (Brasil is a great example), those of color have fewer opportunities, less education, less possibilities of good employment, lower life expectancy and are also subject to prejudice from all areas including the police (even if they themselves are of color). We have all seen the statistics.
Often, if a white employer has two equally qualified candidates for a position and one is white and the other of color, guess who has a statistically better chance of getting the job?
Here in Brasil, most middleclass families have a maid, most often, colored.
While the family may have an income upwards of 10,000 Brasilian $ per month, the maid receives an average of 400 per month. If she happens to live-in, she can expect a bedroom smaller than the owner’s toilet. And 70% of these maids do not have thir government "work book" signed which means that their job is in fact, informal. If the book is not signed, the "employer" avoids paying taxes and retirement funds for them. And so when they are too old to work they are put on the streets with no retirement benifits.

So, assuming my theory is correct, (and it may not be).
Why is it so, why do we white people seem have a colective prejudice?
Any ideas?

 

[Kerrie]

racism is taught, not a part of our biological makeup. it would seem this is more of your experience/opinion of this perspective, are there statistics you can draw from to back it up?

 

[Wardw]

go to:

http://www.newint.org/issue145/facts.htm

 

[abhishek]

You seem to have avoided historical context altogether, arriving at your conclusion almost exclusively on the basis that the problems of today have entirely current causes. Much of what you described can be traced back to the colonial years. Imho, what we live in today, horrible as it may seem, is an improvement.

 

[Wardw]

You seem to have avoided historical context altogether, arriving at your conclusion almost exclusively on the basis that the problems of today have entirely current causes. Much of what you described can be traced back to the colonial years. Imho, what we live in today, horrible as it may seem, is an improvement.

I see your point, and you are right. I am not focusing on historical context. I'm just looking at the facts as they appear to me today. I mentioned in my post that these observations may or may may not be true. I would prefer to look forward as to how these issues can be resolved rather than to the past. And yes Colonialism has a lot to answer for to be sure.
(edit) and nowhere did I mention the causes

 

[Joel]

Regarding the study of prejudice, stereotypes and discrimination I would suggest Ruppert Brown's, Prejudice.

My (or actually Henry Tajfel's) take is that regardless of the reasons for racism or prejudice against people with different 'races', the phenomenon of minimal group behavior (and cognitive cathegorization) will always cause people identifying themselves with an in-group to discriminate against members of an out-group, no matter what that group is (ie. skin color, nationality, hair color, x/y). In that sense, you could say people with white skin has an "unconscious collective prejudice' against non-whites. But equally correct would be to claim that dark skinned people has prejudice against non-dark-skinned.

However, the above will not even nearly explain the statistics you presented. For that, I think history has much more to offer.

 

[Janitor]

...we white people seem to be born with an unconscious prejudice against our brethren of color. Yes even those of us who declare ourselves to be non racists...

In all of the parts of the United States that I have been to, it is evident that black males have a preference for nonblack females. It is not at all politically correct to note this, I know. But it is obviously the truth.

Have you, Ward, noticed the same thing in places where you have been? If so, do you consider it to be a form of racism on the part of black men against women of their own color?

 

[klusener]

On the same tone, I think that dark-skinned people (most) have an inferiority complex when they see whites.

For example, in India because I meet many people here, you have grandmothers, grandfathers, any elders, if they have a relative who has gone to America, the first question they ask when the relative calls back to India is "Has your child (if they have a child) or yourself gotten any whiter (paler)?" Now I am not going to generalize this, but I can say that this happens in most cases. This is still a hangover from the colonial period ( No dogs or Indians allowed; No dogs or chinese allowed, etc.)

 

[the number 42]

My (or actually Henry Tajfel's) take is that regardless of the reasons for racism or prejudice against people with different 'races', the phenomenon of minimal group behavior (and cognitive cathegorization) will always cause people identifying themselves with an in-group to discriminate against members of an out-group, no matter what that group is (ie. skin color, nationality, hair color, x/y). In that sense, you could say people with white skin has an "unconscious collective prejudice' against non-whites. But equally correct would be to claim that dark skinned people has prejudice against non-dark-skinned.

However, the above will not even nearly explain the statistics you presented. For that, I think history has much more to offer.

Well said. This also suggests that prejudice is the norm, and to get beyond it is an achievement rather than something to be glibly demanded.

 

[the number 42]

On the same tone, I think that dark-skinned people (most) have an inferiority complex when they see whites.

For example, in India because I meet many people here, you have grandmothers, grandfathers, any elders, if they have a relative who has gone to America, the first question they ask when the relative calls back to India is "Has your child (if they have a child) or yourself gotten any whiter (paler)?" Now I am not going to generalize this, but I can say that this happens in most cases. This is still a hangover from the colonial period ( No dogs or Indians allowed; No dogs or chinese allowed, etc.)

It should be mentioned that in India there is the caste system, where the lightest skinned are at the top & darkest at the bottom. (I sometimes wonder if this doesn't have something to do with the more outdoor work that the delets tend to do). When seen in this light, the comments of the masi can be seen more as a wish for upward social mobility than a derogatory comment on race. (Note for honkeys: masi = aunt).

 

[klusener]

Oh, I would say the exact opposite is happening regarding the caste system here, in fact the Brahmins or the top castes sometimes identify themselves as lower castes in certifcates because in education for example college and also other sectors, the gov. gives lower castes more seats than higher castes, I think it would be similar to the affirmative action in the US, for example a brahmin or any other higher caste person have a lesser amount of seats in college than lower castes, and the lower castes need a smaller percentage of marks to get in, for example if a lower caste person gets 85 percent, it is given more worth than if a higher caste person gets 94 or so percent. So nowadays, higher castes actually want to be identified as lower castes.

 

[Joel]

Well said. This also suggests that prejudice is the norm, and to get beyond it is an achievement rather than something to be glibly demanded.

Thank you. And a very worthy achievement, if I may add.

 

[the number 42]

Oh, I would say the exact opposite is happening regarding the caste system here, in fact the Brahmins or the top castes sometimes identify themselves as lower castes in certifcates because in education for example college and also other sectors, the gov. gives lower castes more seats than higher castes, I think it would be similar to the affirmative action in the US, for example a brahmin or any other higher caste person have a lesser amount of seats in college than lower castes, and the lower castes need a smaller percentage of marks to get in, for example if a lower caste person gets 85 percent, it is given more worth than if a higher caste person gets 94 or so percent. So nowadays, higher castes actually want to be identified as lower castes.

Wow! I never realized things had changed so much. Was this brought in before the BJP? Can a Brahmin legitimately call themselves delet?

 

[the number 42]

Thank you. And a very worthy achievement, if I may add.

You're not Jewish are you?

 

[Polly]

Sorry to interrupt you guys, but this is an emergency (and not what you think) 42, your inbox is full again, and I need to tell you the GPS position of Bin Laden .

 

[Joel]

You're not Jewish are you?

Yes, in fact I am. But I'm not religious. How did you guess?

 

[the number 42]

Yes, in fact I am. But I'm not religious. How did you guess?

You haven't picked up on the irony of being asked this on the Are WASPS racist thread?

 

[DaveC426913]

"I have come to the sad conclusion after all these years that we white people seem to be born with an unconscious prejudice against our brethren of color."

If I may:

1] Anecdotal information - even yours (though you have an impressive worldliness) - is poor evidence for drawing objective conclusions.

2] There is very rarely consideration for racism between other cultures. Do we really stop to consider how, for example, Africans feel about East Indians?

3] It is not a personal thing between two specific races. We become aware of- and fear- that which appears different. It is a general thing, which becomes more pronounced the more obvious the difference. We don't have an obvious racist attitude towards, say Italians (or any other white culture), because frankly, it is difficult to distinguish them. When you hear of a shooting on the news, the primary piece of identifying information is the colour of the person. We hear that the shooter is black, or white. We do NOT hear that he is Italian or Irish.




"Here in Brasil, most middleclass families have a maid, most often, colored."

This is not an individual decision, it is institutionalized. If 90 percent of the candidates for housekeeping are, in fact, black, there's a 90% chance that you will end up with a black maid, no matter how you feel about it.



I'm not saying your conclusion is wrong, I do believe you are correct, it's just not as simple or (pardon the pun) as black and white as that.

 

[Polly]

Can anyone ask 42 to read my previous post? Bin Laden is leaving on a helicopter!

 

[Joel]

You haven't picked up on the irony of being asked this on the Are WASPS racist thread?

Umm, no. Could you enlighten me?

 

[the number 42]

You haven't picked up on the irony of being asked this on the Are WASPS racist thread?

Let me try again.

"Hang on - you're not Jewish, are you? "

 

[the number 42]

Can anyone ask 42 to read my previous post? Bin Laden is leaving on a helicopter!

Uh? Tell me more. Is the pilot too White or something?

 

[Joel]

Let me try again.

"Hang on - you're not Jewish, are you? "

I'd say, 'huh', but it would be too cruel to let the comedian die on the stage.

 

[the number 42]

That there is comedianism, bud.

 

[klusener]

Wow! I never realized things had changed so much. Was this brought in before the BJP? Can a Brahmin legitimately call themselves delet?

No, it was brought much earlier. But dalits are a different matter, remember there are many castes. Dalits are predominantly in the North and me being from the South I don't know much about them but I think they are similar to Naxalites (sp?) in Andhra Pradesh, who use violence against the landlords. Dalits are at the bottom I think, so Brahmins wouldn't choose to do that even if they could, usually they just choose a lower caste (but not too low ) in school certificates and things like that, but still follow Brahmin customs, that's the only way some of them can get into medical schools and such, which are hard to get into on merit...

 

[Joel]

That there is comedianism, bud.

I must appologise for any sins I have made and hope for redemption. Do you think those Hail Marys will help me, 42?

 

[the number 42]

I must appologise for any sins I have made and hope for redemption. Do you think those Hail Marys will help me, 42?

Hail Marys are for girls. Saturday night is for VODKA! See you later, I'm going out.

 

[Evo]

Prejudice, racism, discrimination are all learned. Perhaps there is to a small degree a natural tendency to be wary of things that are not familiar to us.

I am white and I was born and raised in the southern part of the US, in Houston, TX. My mother is French and I was raised to be understanding and caring of those less fortunate than us. My mother explained racism towards black people and why it was wrong. As a result, I grew up in a community that was very prejudiced towards blacks & hispanics without becoming prejudiced (btw, Americans don't consider people from India to be black, even though some are much darker than African Americans, some people from Mexico have darker skin than African Americans, it's not so much skin color as ethnic group).

There was a movie when I was a little girl called "South Pacific" which is in part about the racial discrimination of the native Pacific Islanders. This was the first time that I became aware of just how varied and widespread racism was. There is a song by Rogers & Hammerstein that really stuck with me.

"You've got to be carefully taught"

You've got to be taught
To hate and fear,
You've got to be taught
From year to year,
It's got to be drummed
In your dear little ear
You've got to be carefully taught.

You've got to be taught to be afraid
Of people whose eyes are oddly made,
And people whose skin is a diff'rent shade,
You've got to be carefully taught.

You've got to be taught before it's too late,
Before you are six or seven or eight,
To hate all the people your relatives hate,
You've got to be carefully taught!

 

[Joel]

Hail Marys are for girls. Saturday night is for VODKA! See you later, I'm going out.

Have a good one! I'll do a couple of Our Fathers then, just to be safe. (And read about enzymes used to digest vodka, while your out drinking it...)

 

[Clausius2]

Go to a marginal outskirt (some like where I live) and you will change the title of your thread:

"Do black people/muslims/gypsies have an unconscious collective prejudice against those of white color?"

 

[klusener]

Well I think it is more of a "fear" against whites than a racist attitude. You should read "The Shadow of the Sun" by Ryszard Kapucinski, a Polish author, one of the best commentaries of Africa from the 1960s to the present, he says how Africans still remember how white people came to their land during the colonial times and well into 1936 into Nigeria, I think or some country close to that, and stole them and sold them into slavery. So I think for Africans, that element of fear and distrust still lies in them. I am not sure this exists for Afro-Americans though..

As for Muslims, I don't know, the Muslims I know are almost white as whites you see in America, for example some muslims from Lebanon and in the Middle East are whiter than Americans, but I realize that OBL is darker than Americans, so maybe those from the Hindu-Kush area are probably darker.

 

[singleton]

I would venture to say that everyone has an unconscious prejudice towards anyone who is different. It just so happens that skin colour is the first factor in any social context (you see their skin before you hear their accent or listen to their words). There is nothing "bad" about it and it will never change unless some day in thousands of years there are no longer "purebreds" of any race but humans are just "mutts" :P.

Everyone feels most comfortable around those most like themselves [obvious].

 

[klusener]

I remember after 9/11, some Indians in NYC wore crosses on their necks, so the mainstream American wouldn't mistake them for Muslim, because some poor Punjabi gas station owner was murdered by an American because he mistook him for a Muslim. Americans might still remember the news, maybe... Many Pakistanis were also brutalized after 9/11...

Amusingly, I also remember a kid in my school who had lived in America for some years, (near Cupertino (sp?), California I think) and the Americans in his school used to make fun of him because he brought Indian food to school and they teased him for it. His parents were doctors and after a while he was so psychologically scarred that they quit their practice in America and moved back to India. Now that i think about it, I shouldn't have said amusingly, it was actually pretty sad..

 

[Astronuc]

White persons (European) or individuals of any other ethnic group are not inherently racist or ethnist. Rather, as others have indicated, such negative behavior is learned - transmitted from adults to children, from older generations to the next.

My father worked for the World Council of Churches for a few years, and my parents entertained people from all over the world. I was accustomed to seeing people from Africa, Asia and SE Asia, as well as European. My parents also taught me that all peoples are equal.

I am an expatriated Aussie living in the US. I came with my family to US, and lived not to far from Evo, in the mid 60's and 70's. That was a time of turmoil in the US concerning the civil rights of minorities, and 1968 was tumultous year with the assassination of Martin Luther King and Robert Kennedy, the Chicago riots during the democratic convention, and the open racism across the US. Adding to that was the Vietnam war and the anti-war movement, as well as various counter-culture movements.

I had several friends of African-American (black), Hispanic (brown) and Asian (color?) descent, as well as European. It would have been strange for me not to. On the other hand, as I matured, I learned that not everyone felt that way, and I also came to realize that US society was heavily segregated.

During one summer in the 1970's, I worked at an oil refinery for a summer job. The personnel were integrated, but during breaks and lunch, the white males went upstairs to socialize, the black males went downstairs, the women and others (generally older) congregated on the main floor. I was amazed. I drifted among the groups, but spent most of my time downstairs. In the evening everyone left for home, and the blacks would generally go to a predominantly black neighborhood, whites to white neighborhoods, hispanics to hispanic neighborhoods, and so on. That is the way it was, and still is in many parts of the US.

I got to know most of the people with whom I worked. At the end of the summer, I left to return to university. I went to say good-bye to my new black friends, and to thank them for sharing their time with me. One, with whom I have been particularly close during the summer, said to me, "You're not like other white people." I was very sad, and not surprised, to hear that.

Racism, ethnism, nationalism, chauvinism, etc are still part of humanity today. It's not just whites, it is every ethnic or racial group. I would hope that humanity would now be making greater and faster progress to overcome what is effectively a continuation of tribalism and clanism. We still have a long way to go.

 

[tribdog]

I've noticed that people congregate together at lunch times in groups. the people who don't want me around go upstairs, the people who would prefer if I ate somewhere else go downstairs and the people who won't even look at me go to the main floor.