James Randi Offers $1M Award for Proof of Expensive Speaker Cables

[russ_watters]

I suggest that Randi has no way to draw the line in the sand that he wishes to draw because modern physics has no way to draw the line either.

That's a very anti-science point of view. The line in the sand is crystal clear, as stated by the scientific method (and pointed out by Morodin). Simply put, if it can be tested scientifically (if it can, in principle, be falsified), it falls within the realm of science.

I corresponded with Randi by email and was convinced that he is a man with a mission that does not include an open mind to discovery. He leaves people with the impression that everything in the universe can be explained; less a few semantics.

Those two sentences are precise opposites of each other.

 

[russ_watters]

As for supernatural, the word has no meaning. Either a phenomenon is real or not.
[separate post]
It is a real phenomenon that has no natural explanation. Therefore, by any science that we have, it is supernatural.

These two are also direct opposites of each other. Obviously the word has a definition - you can find it in a dictionary...and that ain't it (not the full definition, anyway). It doesn't just have to be unexplained, but fundamentally unexplainable.

Supernatural phenomena would be extremely easy to prove if they actually existed. All they require (as I said above) is showing a cause-effect relationship with no physical link between them. If I snap my fingers and shut off gravity and the planets flew out of their orbits, I'm certain Randi would give me the money.

 

[russ_watters]

As far as having a mission and being "open-minded" to discovery, that kind of depends on the topic...

On those topics I (me, not Randi) am extremely skeptical--the burden of proof is entirely on them. I go further in that I wouldn't even waste the time listening to talk of such things. Life is too short to listen to yet another "faith healer" or "remote viewer" or "metal bender".

The way I see it, when you'v'e seen enough scams and can recognize the signs, rejecting claims with the wave of the hand is not "closed-minded". As you say, the burden of proof is heavy on the claimant. Once you've listened to six faith healers, there is no need to listen to a seventh.

 

[Gokul43201]

Once you've listened to six faith healers...

...you are beyond healing!

 

[Ivan Seeking]

So you think Randi is anti-science? That's an interesting opinion. (I don't share it.)

I have listened when he talks about things that I happen to know something about, and he is no scientist or friend of science. Science requires objectivity, but Randi has an agenda - a personal agenda.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

As a final blow to this assertion, science cannot explain the underlying natural causes in detail to things such as homosexuality. This does not suggest that homosexuality is a supernatural concept. It is not, because it can be investigated and observed in the natural world.

There is nothing about biology that I know of that lacks the fundamental physics required to explain a mechanism. If there is such a process, then apparently we don't know about it yet. However in the case of entaglement, there is no mechanism in the physical world that we can measure. And as I pointed out given your own definition, this exactly meets the criteria for being supernatural. What bothers you is that your definition of "supernatural" is "unreal", in which case Randi's challenge is to prove that the unreal is real. Clearly this is not science or sensible. And if we should ever discover that there is a legitmate form of ESP of some kind, then we will instantly say that THAT is real, but other things that we don't want to accept are still "the supernatural". That is where Randi's defintinion completely fails. He demands that if they exist, potentially real phenomena must be supernatural to qualify, and that is a sham.

Would a ten dimensional hypersurface be natural or supernatural by any standards that we know?

If Randi has modified the challenge to be specific to mind readers and fortune tellers, then perhaps he finally realized the flaw in his thinking that I have objected to for a decade. If not, then I might just challenge him.

 

[Gokul43201]

Nah! He is just more open (publicly) about it! Most every scientist out there holds essentially the same opinions as Randi does on the matters of seances, faith healing, crystal power, and psychic divination.

 

[Gokul43201]

There is nothing about biology that I know of that lacks the fundamental physics required to explain a mechanism.

On the contrary, much of biology is emergent (for a physicist) and does not have the physics tools to explain it as yet.

 

[siddharth]

However in the case of entaglement, there is no mechanism in the physical world that we can measure.

Umm... quantum mechanics (for example, measuring the spin of entangled particles. The spin is an observable quantity)

And as I pointed our givin your own definition, this exactly meets the criteria for being supernatural. What bothers you is that your definition of "supernatural" is "unreal". In which case Randi's challenge is to prove that the unreal is real. Clearly this is not science or sensible. And if we should ever discover that there is a legitmate form of ESP of some kind, then we will instantly say that THAT is real, but other things that we don't want to accept are still "the supernatural".

But, despite over 200 years or so of searching for stuff like ESP of some kind, or astrology, divination, faith healing, etc we've found no scientific evidence, and this is what Randi asks for. He wants the such claims to be tested in controlled, scientific experiments, before someone proclaims they exist.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

That's a very anti-science point of view. The line in the sand is crystal clear, as stated by the scientific method (and pointed out by Morodin). .

He desires a defintion that covers all false claims, which is fine, but there is no clear line that tells us the limits of reality, and that's what Randi really wants here.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Umm... quantum mechanics (for example, measuring the spin of entangled particles. The spin is an observable quantity)

Then please explain the mechanism through which spin is conserved at a distance when a measurement is made on one particle in an entangled pair.

But, despite over 200 years or so of searching for stuff like ESP of some kind, or astrology, divination, faith healing, etc we've found no scientific evidence, and this is what Randi asks for. He wants the such claims to be tested in controlled, scientific experiments, before someone proclaims they exist.

That would be fine if he was an objective scientist, but he clearly has an agenda, and that means that he can't be trusted... unless of course Randi's work is published in a peer-reviewed, mainstream, scientific journal, which is our basic minimum here and throughout science.

Or do we make a special exception for Randi - the slight of hand and misdirection expert with a million bucks to lose?

 

[Ivan Seeking]

On the contrary, much of biology is emergent (for a physicist) and does not have the physics tools to explain it as yet.

Tools and mechanisms, or foundational questions [foundational to physics]? Are you saying that there are biological mechanisms that by definition cannot be measured or observed - even in principle?

 

[Ivan Seeking]

In order to be above board, first of all, Randi would have to publish a list of all claims that he has refused to consider, and why. Does he publish such a list? Is the assumed list open to challenge and review by impartial experts who don't have a million bucks on the line?

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Nah! He is just more open (publicly) about it! Most every scientist out there holds essentially the same opinions as Randi does on the matters of seances, faith healing, crystal power, and psychic divination.

Nah what? He has not changed the language?

Frankly, I don't care about personal opinions. Science is not based on personal opinions. If it was, we would probably still live in a Newtonian world. And based on this discussion it would seem that some people still think we do.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

I'm starting to think that many people here don't fully appreciate the significance of "no hidden variables".

 

[7ala.elward]

what's going on here?

 

[siddharth]

Then please explain the mechanism through which spin is conserved at a distance when a measurement is made on one particle in an entangled pair.

I don't know. However, the point is that the "mechanism" (if that even means something) here is irrelevant, only the predictions that quantum mechanics makes, which can be (and are) experimentally verified.

Compare this with astrology. The "mechanism" by which astrology takes place is irrelevant. However, when people try to test the predictions that astrology makes in a controlled test, they find that the predictions are not true. Same thing with fortune tellers, etc.

That would be fine if he was an objective scientist, but he clearly has an agenda, and that means that he can't be trusted...

As long as he performs the tests properly, I don't see what's wrong if he has a personal opinion. He's just exposing people who assert that astrology, faith healing, etc works for the frauds they are.

unless of course Randi's work is published in a peer-reviewed, mainstream, scientific journal, which is our basic minimum here and throughout science.

I'm surprised that you expect Randi to publish in a a peer-reviewed, mainstream, scientific journal, before he can perform such tests, while the people who he tests have never done so.

Also, most scientists don't take any of the claims seriously cause there's no evidence for the past hundred years. So, why would a journal be remotely interested in publishing such studies?

 

[Ivan Seeking]

I don't know. However, the point is that the "mechanism" (if that even means something) here is irrelevant, only the predictions that quantum mechanics makes, which can be (and are) experimentally verified.

That doesn't matter. We are talking about definitions, and the mechanism here [whatever that means] meets the criteria given for being supernatural. We can only say what the result is, and not how it happened, not even in principle. And it seems that it is not possible, even in principle, to measure any "mechanism".

Compare this with astrology. The "mechanism" by which astrology takes place is irrelevant. However, when people try to test the predictions that astrology makes in a controlled test, they find that the predictions are not true. Same thing with fortune tellers, etc.

The mechanism is what would make it qualify for the challenge. The point is not what might be real or not, the point is how we qualify for the challenge. And I argue that entanglement qualifies since we have no physical explanation [less perhaps unproven theories that are usually considered fringe, such as "The Implicate Order" and "Wholeness in Time", which are themselves considered by some to be "mystical"] that even in principle can account for how it happens. You all want to argue that entanglement doesn't qualify because we know it's real, which in itself should make my point. You are arguing that nothing real qualifies for the challenge, whether we can explain it or not; even if it is one of the deepest mysteries of physics.

As long as he performs the tests properly, I don't see what's wrong if he has a personal opinion. He's just exposing people who assert that astrology, faith healing, etc works for the frauds they are.

Who says what challenge he accepts? Randi, and Randi alone.

Oh how low our standards are when we agree with the premise.

I'm surprised that you expect Randi to publish in a a peer-reviewed, mainstream, scientific journal, before he can perform such tests, while the people who he tests have never done so.

Also, most scientists don't take any of the claims seriously cause there's no evidence for the past hundred years. So, why would a journal be remotely interested in publishing such studies?

That isn't the point. The point is that Randi is not a scientific resource and he certainly doesn't qualify to be treated like one. From a scientific point of view, his million dollar challenge is meaningless and has no place here.

 

[turbo]

You all want to argue that entanglement doesn't qualify because we know it's real, which in itself should make my point. You are arguing that nothing real qualifies for the challenge, whether we can explain it or not; even if it is one of the deepest mysteries of physics.

The point is that experimentally provable phenomena (repeatable observations under controlled conditions) need not be considered "supernatural", even if the mechanism behind the phenomena are not currently understood. That is a limitation of our understanding, and it is to be expected. We will never understand everything. It is quite a stretch to say that Randi is obligated to pay out a million bucks every time he cannot explain something that is so foundational that we cannot explain it through science. Does Randi owe a million bucks to everyone who asks him to explain how particle masses arise or to explain the mechanics of wave/particle duality? That's a huge stretch.

To Randi's credit, he has taken it upon himself to weed out frauds and charlatans like Uri Geller, who claim to be able to do things that no person can do. Randi is a magician, and as such he understands the tricks and misdirection that such charlatans use to perform their "miracles" and can easily prevent their use. People who make a living off fortune-telling, psychic "readings", spoon-bending-type tricks, etc could try to take Randi's money, but it will never happen, and they all know it. That is the nature of Randi's challenge.

Consider this: this country is chock-a-block full of people who claim to have psychic abilities, and (for a sum) will gladly tell you things about your future. Where were all these "real" psychics on Sept. 10th, 2001? Why weren't they jamming the phone lines telling everybody about the horrific tragedies that were going to occur the next day? I have a pretty good idea why they said nothing. It's one thing to make a living taking money from people who are willing to suspend disbelief or who are genuinely gullible or just plain stupid. It's another thing entirely to claim to have paranormal abilities and demonstrate those abilities under controlled conditions. This is where Randi's challenge is directed.

 

[Curious3141]

This looks interesting : http://www.randi.org/joom/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=97&Itemid=27

The superior cable audophile has actually consented to participating in the JREF challenge.

I find it a little alarming that Randi was the one to throw the word "paranormal" into the discussion, especially when the audiophile was at pains to make sure that he did not represent his abilities (such as they are) as paranormal. Do any of you know the case of Dr Arthur Lintgen?

Dr Lintgen claimed that he could distinguish between classical music compositions merely by "reading" the grooves of vinyl records. Apparently, years back, Randi actually tested him and found his claims to be true. But Dr Lintgen got nothing because he never represented his claims as being paranormal, and Randi conveniently agreed.

This is the best quote I could find :

On one occasion Randi did agree that the claimed ability existed.
Arthur G. Lintgen claimed an ability to identify LP records without
labels. Randi tested him on behalf of Time magazine, and found that
Lintgen could in fact do this by reading the patterns of loud and
quiet in the groove. Lintgen did not get Randi's reward because he
had not demonstrated (or claimed) any paranormal ability.

Startling parallels to the current developing audiophile case. This chap is also not claiming any paranormal abilities, but Randi for some reason best known to himself, chose to use that loaded word in the argument. For now, it seems Randi is willing to concede the prize if a double blind test bears out the cable claims (without invoking "paranormality" or whatever), but this has become an interesting test case to gauge Randi's integrity (and indeed, that of the "cable guy").

 

[FredGarvin]

I agree that it still looks like Randi is leaving a loophole open for him to crawl out of. Although, there is no way in H...that he would need to. I would feel better if he redrafted the rules for the Pear folks and said plainly "A million if you prove it." No paranormal or any other crud mixed in.

You know that they will never do it though. They squabble about the rules and the protocol from now 'till the cows come home.

 

[turbo]

Dr Lintgen claimed that he could distinguish between classical music compositions merely by "reading" the grooves of vinyl records. Apparently, years back, Randi actually tested him and found his claims to be true. But Dr Lintgen got nothing because he never represented his claims as being paranormal, and Randi conveniently agreed.

Lots of classical music is structured into movements that can result in recognizable patterns in the textures of the grooves. In addition, the grooves in recordings of violins and other higher-pitched instruments with lots of even higher overtones will have a noticeably finer texture than, say, an AC/DC record. I don't have the link, anymore, but some years ago, a clever fellow wrote a program to reproduce music from optical scans of albums. The quality was pretty poor, but the application was impressive nonetheless.

 

[robphy]

I don't have the link, anymore, but some years ago, a clever fellow wrote a program to reproduce music from optical scans of albums. The quality was pretty poor, but the application was impressive nonetheless.

http://www.cs.huji.ac.il/~springer/
http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=02/09/05/1814203&tid=99

 

[f95toli]

This looks interesting : http://www.randi.org/joom/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=97&Itemid=27

The superior cable audophile has actually consented to participating in the JREF challenge.

I find it a little alarming that Randi was the one to throw the word "paranormal" into the discussion, especially when the audiophile was at pains to make sure that he did not represent his abilities (such as they are) as paranormal.

As a physisict who also happens to be an audiophile I must side with Randi here. While the "cable crowd" rarely CLAIM do to anything paranormal a lot of the ideas, terminology, techniques etc they use have more in common with New Age "healing crystals" etc than with science. The whole idea is that cables (usually made from what they claim is a VERY expensive material) can significantly "improve" the sound despite the fact that you can't measure the difference; e.g. silver cables make the sound "cooler" gold "warmer" etc (there is even a cable that uses water as a dielectric). There are also cables that claim the improve the sound by removing the "quantum noise".
There is also a LOT of money in this business; high-end cables cost many thousands of dollars and there are some that costs TENS of thousands of dollars.

 

[turbo]

As a physisict who also happens to be an audiophile I must side with Randi here. While the "cable crowd" rarely CLAIM do to anything paranormal a lot of the ideas, terminology, techniques etc they use have more in common with New Age "healing crystals" etc than with science. The whole idea is that cables (usually made from what they claim is a VERY expensive material) can significantly "improve" the sound despite the fact that you can't measure the difference; e.g. silver cables make the sound "cooler" gold "warmer" etc (there is even a cable that uses water as a dielectric). There are also cables that claim the improve the sound by removing the "quantum noise".
There is also a LOT of money in this business; high-end cables cost many thousands of dollars and there are some that costs TENS of thousands of dollars.

Thank you! I have re-worked lots of old tube amplifiers and there are some impressive and some not-so-impressive changes that you can make early on in the signal chain. The best changes are early in the signal chain, and get propagated on and on. The last thing I would worry about is some odd coupling/capacitance/etc in the speaker wires. These people are weird.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

The point is that experimentally provable phenomena (repeatable observations under controlled conditions) need not be considered "supernatural", even if the mechanism behind the phenomena are not currently understood.

Why? We have a definition for supernatural, and spin conservation at a distance in entangled systems meets the definition. For one, spin is conserved instantly; or at least much faster than speed of light communication would allow.

According to the current theory, it is not possible even in principle to measure the mechanism for spin conservation in entangled systems. Its not a matter of being difficult, it is impossible. And according to the defintion, this qualifies precisely as being supernatural. What you want is a completely arbitrary definition that allows us to pick and choose what qualifies based on personal bias. That could be considered the definition of bad science. Now if Randi specified that he was only interested in testing spoon benders, mind readers, and fortune tellers, we wouldn't have this problem.

I don't think you understand the depth of the paradox. QM predicts the correct results every time, but the mechanism - how spin is conserved - might as well be magic. And for all practical purposes, it is. This is why the EPR thought experiment was such a big deal.

Although originally devised as a thought experiment that would demonstrate the incompleteness of quantum mechanics, actual experimental results refute the principle of locality, invalidating the EPR trio's original purpose.

wiki

The situation is roughly equivalent to this: I have a predictive model, or I have learned by doing experiments that psychics can make correct predictions under specific conditions, and it works every time, but I can offer no explanation as to how they do it. You are saying that because I can say when it works - say for example if it only works when they are standing on one leg and facing South - the psychics no longer qualify for the challenge.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

I have also argued that so called blind-sight qualifies as being extra-sensory perception. For example, it appears that a completely blind person can recognize emotions on the faces of people standing in front of him. It is believed that this can happen due to an alternate path for visual perception in which the image need not be processed as an image. By definition this is an extra sense in that we get useful information without seeing. Whatver it we might call it, it is not sight in any way that we have imagined.

Of course the basic argument against this qualifying is one of defintions.

Still, this is that we think this actually happens. The evidence is thin, and we don't really KNOW that it happens, but it seems to be true, papers have been published, and since we might be able to explain it, since we can now suddenly imagine an explanation when forced to do so, it doesn't qualify as ESP. I think the logic against this qualifying for Randi's Challenge utterly fails, as it does in the entanglement problem. One can argue that it is still sight, but I don't think the defintion of sight would include this ability to perceive ONLY emotions. So to escape the problem we automatically adjust our definition of sight - we make it more general - and say, that's what we meant all along.

If there is any such thing as mind reading, precognition, or any other ability that we randomly define as being "supernatural" if real, and if we one day prove that it exists and we have an idea how it works, this would no longer qualify for the challenge either.

My position is this: Either nothing real is supernatural, or everything real is supernatural. If something turns out to be a real phenomenon, then it must be a simple fact of existence just like everything else, and for this reason nothing could ever qualify to win the challenge. Either the words "supernatural" and "paranormal" are meaningless, or the entanglement scenario qualifies as such precisely.

Anyone who understand Quantum Mechanics hasn't studied it long enough - RPF.

 

[Curious3141]

Why? We have a definition for supernatural, and spin conservation at a distance in entangled systems meets the definition. For one, spin is conserved instantly; or at least much faster than speed of light communication would allow.

According to the current theory, it is not possible even in principle to measure the mechanism for spin conservation in entangled systems. Its not a matter of being difficult, it is impossible. And according to the defintion, this qualifies precisely as being supernatural. What you want is a completely arbitrary definition that allows us to pick and choose what qualifies based on personal bias. That could be considered the definition of bad science. Now if Randi specified that he was only interested in testing spoon benders, mind readers, and fortune tellers, we wouldn't have this problem.

I don't think you understand the depth of the paradox. QM predicts the correct results every time, but the mechanism - how spin is conserved - might as well be magic. And for all practical purposes, it is. This is why the EPR thought experiment was such a big deal.


wiki

The situation is roughly equivalent to this: I have a predictive model, or I have learned by doing experiments that psychics can make correct predictions under specific conditions, and it works every time, but I can offer no explanation as to how they do it. You are saying that because I can say when it works - say for example if it only works when they are standing on one leg and facing South - the psychics no longer qualify for the challenge.

Those are fairly good points, did you try writing to Randi about it? Or has he ever commented?

 

[Ivan Seeking]

I really don't want to make life difficult for Randi, but I do wish to reduce his ability to close people’s minds. I will leave it to Randi fans to tell him that I bet I could take his money if we went to court. There have been times when I listened to him talk that I was sorely tempted to call my lawyer, and the truth be known, the other day I was feeling a bit hot about this and actually did call my lawyer, but luckily he was out of town until tomorrow.

Randi debunks charlatans, and for that he is to be commended, but he is not the end all of truth, and his challenge is not the clear line in the sand between real and not real, as he falsely leads people to believe.

To answer your question specifically, as I said earlier, Randi and I once corresponded by email, and that's where he got black listed in my book in the first place. After that I was inclined to believe that no one could win his challenge under any circumstances, by design - less perhaps a miracle from what appears to be the most obvious hoaxers. And if someone like Uri Geller was really bending spoons with his mind, I would probably be just as surprised as Randi.


.

 

[Moridin]

I really don't want to make life difficult for Randi, but I do wish to reduce his ability to close people’s minds.

There is a difference between having an open mind and being gullible. Having an open mind means accessing each new piece of evidence and trying to see the bigger picture. Sure, it means accepting possibilities, but evaluating probabilities. It does not mean accepting everything. Randi is actually opening people's minds, not the other way around.

 

[Curious3141]

To answer your question specifically, as I said earlier, Randi and I once corresponded by email, and that's where he got black listed in my book in the first place.

So what did Randi reply, specifically?

 

[turbo]

Why? We have a definition for supernatural, and spin conservation at a distance in entangled systems meets the definition. For one, spin is conserved instantly; or at least much faster than speed of light communication would allow.

According to the current theory, it is not possible even in principle to measure the mechanism for spin conservation in entangled systems. Its not a matter of being difficult, it is impossible. And according to the defintion, this qualifies precisely as being supernatural. What you want is a completely arbitrary definition that allows us to pick and choose what qualifies based on personal bias. That could be considered the definition of bad science. Now if Randi specified that he was only interested in testing spoon benders, mind readers, and fortune tellers, we wouldn't have this problem.

I don't think you understand the depth of the paradox. QM predicts the correct results every time, but the mechanism - how spin is conserved - might as well be magic. And for all practical purposes, it is. This is why the EPR thought experiment was such a big deal.

To the contrary, I do understand the depth of the paradox. The fact that we do not know or cannot know the mechanism behind an observable event does not elevate the event to something paranormal, however. Quantum weirdness is something that we have to accept. The quantum world is not constrained by the rules of classical physics and we have to acknowledge that. Much of our world runs on semi-conductors that rely on quantum behaviors like tunneling that seem to violate the laws of classical physics. While we do not fully understand the mechanics behind these behaviors, we can model them, predict them, and can control them. The behaviors are no less weird for this, but they are hardly supernatural.

 

[Mk]

if someone like Uri Geller was really bending spoons with his mind, I would probably be just as surprised as Randi.

If somebody was out there that was bending spoons with his mind and wanted to tell everybody, everybody would know.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

To the contrary, I do understand the depth of the paradox. The fact that we do not know or cannot know the mechanism behind an observable event does not elevate the event to something paranormal, however. Quantum weirdness is something that we have to accept. The quantum world is not constrained by the rules of classical physics and we have to acknowledge that. Much of our world runs on semi-conductors that rely on quantum behaviors like tunneling that seem to violate the laws of classical physics. While we do not fully understand the mechanics behind these behaviors, we can model them, predict them, and can control them. The behaviors are no less weird for this, but they are hardly supernatural.

That's because you can define supernatural to mean whatever you want. When exactly is something supernatural? We already were given a definition. I was responding directly to the definition. And the key point is that the mechanism cannot be measured; not even in principle. What better definition could you want?

Incidentally, when the military learned of this they got quite excited as it seemed that one could use this to make a the perfect communication system [undetectable and inviolable], but of course the fact that the spin is undefined on both particles, until measured on one, means that there is no way to use it for secret messaging.

Also, should our speaker wires pass Randi's challenge - whatever their claims may be, and I really don't care what they are - your position is that rather than assuming that we have a fantastic new technology that can be explained by science, we should assume that it's supernatural?
If we find that precognition actually happens due to some deep physics that we don't yet understand, would physics then be the study of the supernatural?

Can you say just what the limits of quantum weirdness may be? Ultimately, we live in a quantum world. I know because tunnel diodes work.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

There is a difference between having an open mind and being gullible. Having an open mind means accessing each new piece of evidence and trying to see the bigger picture. Sure, it means accepting possibilities, but evaluating probabilities. It does not mean accepting everything. Randi is actually opening people's minds, not the other way around.

It also means that we don't use artificial defintions that can change at a whim.