Japan Earthquake: Nuclear Plants at Fukushima Daiichi

[htf]

I calculated a boiloff rate based on adiabatic heating and came up with 20 m^3/sec.

How did you get these figures? I get 2 m^3 / sec.

I calculate 1.35 kg/sec boiloff rate: 3.05e6 W/(2.256e6 J/kg) These are ~75 mol, which give 22.4 * 373/273 * 75 l = 2.3e3 l = 2.3 m^3 steam - make it 2 m^3 because it is saturated and not an ideal gas.

 

[elektrownik]

I don't see any solution for Fukushima (in case of water leaks), they need to inject water to RPV to cool down melted cores, they can't stop, but it look like all RPVs are leaking and drywells also so water is going to reactor and turbine buildings, and to other locations. To install cooling system they need closed loop, but to do this they would need fix at last drywell leak, but we still don't know how big is damage. In theory they could fix leak, but to do this they would need to stop water injection, but they cant, and if they could then there is also extrem radiation problem, I think that it will be not possible to work in leak location for many years, radiation would be too hight. Closed loop with reactors as water tanks is not a solution also because we know that they are not sealed and water is leaking outside...

 

[thehammer2]

I am not so sure about stratification. Bubbles of pure hydrogen will go up, no doubt about it. But if the gases are well mixed, from what I remember stratification due to masses of molecules is negligible, as mixing due to thermal motion is way too strong. For reasonably good results you need very high towers and very low temperatures (cryogenic distillation) - neither were present.

Agreed. I was definitely thinking more of discrete pockets of gas coming out of the water that were large enough to have enough buoyancy to get significantly toward the top of the building before spreading out and mixing into the surroundings, not a nice mixture leaving the SFP. My mechanism requires that the gases aren't very well mixed when they leave the pool.

 

[etudiant]

I don't see any solution for Fukushima (in case of water leaks), they need to inject water to RPV to cool down melted cores, they can't stop, but it look like all RPVs are leaking and drywells also so water is going to reactor and turbine buildings, and to other locations. To install cooling system they need closed loop, but to do this they would need fix at last drywell leak, but we still don't know how big is damage. In theory they could fix leak, but to do this they would need to stop water injection, but they cant, and if they could then there is also extrem radiation problem, I think that it will be not possible to work in leak location for many years, radiation would be too hight. Closed loop with reactors as water tanks is not a solution also because we know that they are not sealed and water is leaking outside...

Is not the plan to have the water recycled after going through AREVAs decontamination?
If the planned 1200 ton/day processing is achieved, they can reuse the cleaned water and still gradually drain the site, because the cooling only uses about half that.
AREVA expects to process 250,000 tons of water, so they plan to be at this well into next year.
Where they put the processed water other than into the Pacific is still an open question. Presumably one could put it into an old supertanker and moor it somewhere out of typhoon prone areas, but for the cesium 137 it would only be a halflife or so before the ship rusted out completely.

 

[frangin]

@swl ,
From the same samples, Cs134 from 1600 up to 4100 and Cs137 from 1700 to 4300 becquerel/liter

i found it in this realease :

http://www.tepco.co.jp/en/press/corp-com/release/betu11_e/images/110529e3.pdf

 

[Jorge Stolfi]

... [ignition of hydrogen in unit #4] ...

Hydrogen/oxygen mixtures can be ignited by contact with a suitable catalyst, such as certain bare metals. The catalyzer will initially combine H2+O2 flameless, but will get hot as a result. (The explosion that convinced Fleischmann and Pons that they had achieved cold fusion was later conjectured to be a chemical D2 + O2 explosion catalyzed by palladium.)

 

[Jorge Stolfi]

As the gas mixture leaves the pool, the hydrogen is MUCH less dense than the gases around it, so due to buoyancy alone, it will rise to the top and accumulate. The result is stratification, like oil floating on top of water.

This does not happen. No matter what the difference in density, gases that are mixed will stay mixed, and gases that are initially stratified will gradually diffuse into each other, even if they are kept perfectly still (without macroscopic motion). Indeed there must have been significant convection currents in the service floor of #4, because of the powerful heat+steam source in one corner.

That said, IMHO radiolysis seems a better explanation than H2 leakage from #3. I cannot see how a warm steam+H2 mixture, much lighter than air, would have chosen to travel backwards into the venting pipe of #4, and force its way through a tortuous path with several valves and tubing into a closed building with the AC turned off --- instead of flowing up the venting tower. I suppose that if some of the H2+steam from #3 managed to get into the chimney, it would have created negative pressure at its base, thus sucking back any gas that happened to flow towards #4

 

[jlduh]

I don't know where the news reporter got this info but he seems to confirm that groundwater level is quite high:


http://ajw.asahi.com/article/0311disaster/fukushima/AJ201105300291

By the way, did you notice that he copied what jlduh said a couple of days ago (May 27th):

https://www.physicsforums.com/showpost.php?p=3325027&postcount=8356

Asahi Shimbun May 30th:

Maybe some journalists are reading this forum
Next time I will write some big BS (humm I'm sure i did already!) and we will see if they copy it

 

[jlduh]

I don't see any solution for Fukushima (in case of water leaks), they need to inject water to RPV to cool down melted cores, they can't stop, but it look like all RPVs are leaking and drywells also so water is going to reactor and turbine buildings, and to other locations. To install cooling system they need closed loop, but to do this they would need fix at last drywell leak, but we still don't know how big is damage. In theory they could fix leak, but to do this they would need to stop water injection, but they cant, and if they could then there is also extrem radiation problem, I think that it will be not possible to work in leak location for many years, radiation would be too hight. Closed loop with reactors as water tanks is not a solution also because we know that they are not sealed and water is leaking outside...

This is called a technical NIGHTMARE. Maybe less spectacular than Tchernobyl, but much more perverse on the long run, IMHO.

 

[hbjon]

How did the area handle the storm that just went through? Or is it still going through?

 

[hbjon]

Maybe some journalists are reading this forum
Next time I will write some big BS (humm I'm sure i did already!) and we will see if they copy it

Someone stole (borrowed) my analogy to the "Titanic" and called the disaster a "Nuclear Titanic", early on. Not even so much as a thank you e mail. Sigh.

 

[swl]

@swl ,
From the same samples, Cs134 from 1600 up to 4100 and Cs137 from 1700 to 4300 becquerel/liter

i found it in this realease :

http://www.tepco.co.jp/en/press/corp-com/release/betu11_e/images/110529e3.pdf

On page two of the above quoted document, TEPCO's data indicates that the Iodine-131 level measured in water from "Screen of 1Fs unit 2 (inside the silt fence)" is much higher than the levels indicated in Units 1, 3 and (of course) 4.

Given similar starting levels it would take well over a month of decay to account for this difference. I understand that the starting points would likely have been different, so I considered the ratio between the Iodine-131 and the Cesium levels (both 134 and 137). Unit two appears to have far more Iodine relative to Cesium than any of the other units.

Unit 1: I131 650Bq/L; Cs134 1,500Bq/L; Cs137 1,600Bq/L
Unit 2: I131 24,000Bq/L; Cs134 4,100Bq/L; Cs137 4,300Bq/L
Unit 3: I131 720Bq/L; Cs134 5,100Bq/L; Cs137 5,400Bq/L
Unit 4: I131 160Bq/L; Cs134 4,500Bq/L; Cs137 4,800Bq/L (shut down mode before accident and much lower Iodine levels than the other units)

So, I am now wondering if this could be an indication that unit 2 had a criticality accident over a month after the tsunami, or is there some other likely explanation?

 

[Atomfritz]

Here some quotes about the hydrogen collecting up in the buildings:

I am not so sure about stratification. Bubbles of pure hydrogen will go up, no doubt about it. But if the gases are well mixed, from what I remember stratification due to masses of molecules is negligible, as mixing due to thermal motion is way too strong. For reasonably good results you need very high towers and very low temperatures (cryogenic distillation) - neither were present.

Hydrogen/oxygen mixtures can be ignited by contact with a suitable catalyst, such as certain bare metals. The catalyzer will initially combine H2+O2 flameless, but will get hot as a result. (The explosion that convinced Fleischmann and Pons that they had achieved cold fusion was later conjectured to be a chemical D2 + O2 explosion catalyzed by palladium.)

No matter what the difference in density, gases that are mixed will stay mixed, and gases that are initially stratified will gradually diffuse into each other, even if they are kept perfectly still (without macroscopic motion). Indeed there must have been significant convection currents in the service floor of #4, because of the powerful heat+steam source in one corner.

That said, IMHO radiolysis seems a better explanation than H2 leakage from #3. I cannot see how a warm steam+H2 mixture, much lighter than air, would have chosen to travel backwards into the venting pipe of #4, and force its way through a tortuous path with several valves and tubing into a closed building with the AC turned off --- instead of flowing up the venting tower. I suppose that if some of the H2+steam from #3 managed to get into the chimney, it would have created negative pressure at its base, thus sucking back any gas that happened to flow towards #4

Just my unqualified 2 cents:
First of all, thanks to Nuceng and all the others for their valuable insights!

Please do also consider the fact that much, if not most of the steam will condensate at the walls etc due to the very low dew point.
The increased pressure even speeds up condensation.
This means that the mixture steam-hydrogen inevitably gets richer in hydrogen with time, because hydrogen cannot condensate under earthly temperatures/pressures.
Until explodable conditions have been achieved, Then just a little spark or hot surface could initiate the "kaboom procedure"...

The observation that only RB#2, the only that allowed hydrogen to escape, remained in shape, appears to confirm my hypothesis as far I see.

Compare this to a fridge where you put a pot of boiling water in. The steam will condense at the walls, some leaking out at the door, but not popping it open.
(Finally, due to lack of (pressed out) air the fridge will develop underpressure, making it difficult to open the door. Unlike a reactor...)

Consider this photo just before explosion.
Do you also see steam leaving through building weak points at wall/ceiling corner of reactor building #1 (left)?
Doesn't this indicate high pressure in the reactor building?
(Or maybe I misinterpret this image ? It could be Daini or some other plant?!? But what is that optical distortion looking like steam? German "Spiegel" posted this photo short before Daiichi explosion #1, with picture description suggesting it was Daiichi 1+2...)

So, could the inevitable outcome have been that eventually an explosive hydrogen-oxygen ratio developed, ready to be ignited by a slight spark or some hot surface?

 

[jlduh]

How did the area handle the storm that just went through? Or is it still going through?

The new live webcam is ON, you can check it by yourself...


http://www.tepco.co.jp/nu/f1-np/camera/index-j.html

 

[StrangeBeauty]

...
Consider this photo just before explosion.
Do you also see steam leaving through building weak points at wall/ceiling corner of reactor building #1 (left)?
Doesn't this indicate high pressure in the reactor building?
(Or maybe I misinterpret this image ? It could be Daini or some other plant?!? But what is that optical distortion looking like steam? German "Spiegel" posted this photo short before Daiichi explosion #1, with picture description suggesting it was Daiichi 1+2...)

So, could the inevitable outcome have been that eventually an explosive hydrogen-oxygen ratio developed, ready to be ignited by a slight spark or some hot surface?

My first thought was prop wash from the helicopter causing that image distortion...? Do you have another image without the chopper?

Thanks to a number of people for all the detailed analysis in the attempt to come up with plausible scenarios for the #4 explosion/fire.

 

[quark42]

Here some quotes about the hydrogen collecting up in the buildings:
.
.
Just my unqualified 2 cents:
First of all, thanks to Nuceng and all the others for their valuable insights!

Please do also consider the fact that much, if not most of the steam will condensate at the walls etc due to the very low dew point.
The increased pressure even speeds up condensation.
This means that the mixture steam-hydrogen inevitably gets richer in hydrogen with time, because hydrogen cannot condensate under earthly temperatures/pressures.
Until explodable conditions have been achieved, Then just a little spark or hot surface could initiate the "kaboom procedure"...

The observation that only RB#2, the only that allowed hydrogen to escape, remained in shape, appears to confirm my hypothesis as far I see.

Compare this to a fridge where you put a pot of boiling water in. The steam will condense at the walls, some leaking out at the door, but not popping it open.
(Finally, due to lack of (pressed out) air the fridge will develop underpressure, making it difficult to open the door. Unlike a reactor...)

Consider this photo just before explosion.
Do you also see steam leaving through building weak points at wall/ceiling corner of reactor building #1 (left)?
Doesn't this indicate high pressure in the reactor building?
(Or maybe I misinterpret this image ? It could be Daini or some other plant?!? But what is that optical distortion looking like steam? German "Spiegel" posted this photo short before Daiichi explosion #1, with picture description suggesting it was Daiichi 1+2...)

So, could the inevitable outcome have been that eventually an explosive hydrogen-oxygen ratio developed, ready to be ignited by a slight spark or some hot surface?

I'm not sure where that is, but I'm confident it's not Fukushima 1. As to the distortion, I'd say it's due to hot exhaust from the heli.

 

[Jorge Stolfi]

Consider this photo just before explosion. German "Spiegel" posted this photo short before Daiichi explosion #1, with picture description suggesting it was Daiichi 1+2...)

It is not Daiichi. Check the checkers pattern and other details. The tower is very similar though, so it may be Daini.

 

[thehammer2]

This does not happen. No matter what the difference in density, gases that are mixed will stay mixed, and gases that are initially stratified will gradually diffuse into each other, even if they are kept perfectly still (without macroscopic motion). Indeed there must have been significant convection currents in the service floor of #4, because of the powerful heat+steam source in one corner.

That said, IMHO radiolysis seems a better explanation than H2 leakage from #3. I cannot see how a warm steam+H2 mixture, much lighter than air, would have chosen to travel backwards into the venting pipe of #4, and force its way through a tortuous path with several valves and tubing into a closed building with the AC turned off --- instead of flowing up the venting tower. I suppose that if some of the H2+steam from #3 managed to get into the chimney, it would have created negative pressure at its base, thus sucking back any gas that happened to flow towards #4

Yeah, I retract my earlier stupid. I had a brainfart and completely forgot about the convection and the fact that the hydrogen was likely coming up premixed with the steam.

I was definitely thinking about more discrete releases that I've encountered where the gas is pure enough and in quantities where buoyancy is a factor and it can collect at low or high points.

 

[mscharisma]

The new live webcam is ON, you can check it by yourself...http://www.tepco.co.jp/nu/f1-np/camera/index-j.html

Following this link, I get a completely different picture than on the TBS/JNN live feed. Nice weather with almost blue skies on the first, gray and rainy on the latter ().

 

[westfield]

snip

Consider this photo just before explosion.
Do you also see steam leaving through building weak points at wall/ceiling corner of reactor building #1 (left)?
Doesn't this indicate high pressure in the reactor building?
(Or maybe I misinterpret this image ? It could be Daini or some other plant?!? But what is that optical distortion looking like steam? German "Spiegel" posted this photo short before Daiichi explosion #1, with picture description suggesting it was Daiichi 1+2...)

So, could the inevitable outcome have been that eventually an explosive hydrogen-oxygen ratio developed, ready to be ignited by a slight spark or some hot surface?

Lol, I'm no power plant spotter but they looks suspiciously coal fired. There's even a coal loader in the image. Thats the quality of MSM I guess.

 

[htf]

Please do also consider the fact that much, if not most of the steam will condensate at the walls etc due to the very low dew point.

I think NUCENG made a simple conversion error - it get 2 m^3/sec (see my previous post). So it is not that much. Compare it to a steam train which has about the same power (3MW for a big one is realistic).

Consider this photo just before explosion.
Do you also see steam leaving through building weak points at wall/ceiling corner of reactor building #1 (left)?

Besides it is a different NPP I think the effect is simply related to the bright sun light that is reflected towards the camera by the left building.

 

[jim hardy]

Needing a mechanism to pull slight vacuum on unit 4?
when did they begin adding water to U-4's SFP?
could the building have got fairly well filled with steam from pool then cooled off?

remember the grade school science project , bring a can with some water to a boil then remove heat and cap it, watch it collapse as steam condenses.

i see from here they report injecting water to pool on 15th. surely there's a record of when they began that operation.

http://www.jaif.or.jp/english/news_images/pdf/ENGNEWS01_1300189582P.pdf

 

[Jorge Stolfi]

Needing a mechanism to pull slight vacuum on unit 4?
when did they begin adding water to U-4's SFP?

Good question. I believe that between the venting of #3 and the explosion of #4 the latter was completely without power, so it is not clear how they would have managed to pump water into the pool. AFAIK they would have had to rig the pipes inside the building to make it possible to pump water from outside. But the floors are all connected through the elevator shaft and the stairwells, so if they entered the building then any negative pressure inside would have immediately equalized through the entrance door. Or not?

Did they even worry about the #4 SFP before the building exploded?

 

[elektrownik]

Did they even worry about the #4 SFP before the building exploded?

No, there was no something like SFP problemm, they were fighting to cool down cores... It was funy, there was nothing about SFPs but after unit 4 explosion they were confused that there is such problem...

 

[~kujala~]

Just wanted you to know... This http://ex-skf.blogspot.com/" sometimes has interesting news but it also is perhaps too sensational. For instance it had a couple of days ago a piece of news about TEPCO roadmap:

http://ex-skf.blogspot.com/2011/05/kyodo-news-tepco-believes-stabilizing.html

Somebody posted in the comments a link to a presentation already posted here:

http://dels.nas.edu/resources/static-assets/nrsb/miscellaneous/SekimuraPresentation.pdf

The writer of the blog (arevamirpal::laprimavera) later makes a comment concerning the above presentation:

arevamirpal::laprimavera said...
Sekimura's slide No.18 is a blatant lie. EDG didn't work even before the tsunami, and off-site power went down because of earthquake only.

This of course is not true. AFAIK there is not a single source saying diesel generators didn't work before tsunami, I don't know where the idea has come from?

http://www.world-nuclear-news.org/RS_Massive_earthquake_hits_Japan_1103111.html

A more serious situation emerged at Tepco's nearby Fukushima Daiichi power plant, after the sudden stoppage of emergency diesel generators. These had started as expected upon automatic reactor shutdown, but stopped after one hour leaving units 1, 2 and 3 with no power for important cooling functions.

 

[ascot317]

(Or maybe I misinterpret this image ? It could be Daini or some other plant?!? But what is that optical distortion looking like steam? German "Spiegel" posted this photo short before Daiichi explosion #1, with picture description suggesting it was Daiichi 1+2...)

So, could the inevitable outcome have been that eventually an explosive hydrogen-oxygen ratio developed, ready to be ignited by a slight spark or some hot surface?

This Reuters Photo is showing the Haramati Thermal Power Plant (Coal) by Tepco. It was originally distributed by Reuters as "Fukushima Daiichi shortly before the explosion" or similar. I had written Reuters an email about it, but they apparently care little for journalistic accuracy.

You can find the plant by searching for its Japanese name "原町火力発電所" on google maps/earth.

 

[zapperzero]

Explosion near reactor #4 during debris removal. TEPCO "assume" it was a buried gas tank. A what, now?

http://online.wsj.com/article/BT-CO-20110531-701810.html

 

[tsutsuji]

I don't know where the idea has come from?

I don't know either. Perhaps the best way is to ask him.

By the way, page 18 of the Sekimura Presentation is hardly different from page 51 of http://www.tepco.co.jp/en/nu/fukushima-np/images/handouts_110525_01-e.pdf .

 

[zapperzero]

Oil tanks at #5 and #6 may be leaking. Not good when you rely on diesels for emergency power.

http://news.xinhuanet.com/english2010/world/2011-05/31/c_13903549.htm

 

[Gary7]

From the TV Asahi website

On the afternoon of May 31st at Fukushima Daiichi there was a large explosion heard near reactor #4. The explosion is believed to have been caused by a pressurized tank rupturing.

According to Tepco, at 2:30pm today near the south side of the #4 reactor building, remote-controlled heavy equipment was being used to clear away rubble when a large explosion was heard. It is believed the machinery ruptured a tank that was buried in the rubble. Exactly what type of tank it was is now under investigation, but there was no fire and there were no injuries. There was no change in the surrounding radiation levels.

http://news.tv-asahi.co.jp/ann/news/web/html/210531044.html

 

[Borek]

Oil tanks at #5 and #6 may be leaking. Not good when you rely on diesels for emergency power.

Are the diesels already repaired? If not, oil leaks don't matter much. That is - they add to the mess, but they don't make the system more vulnerable.

 

[jlduh]

From the TV Asahi website

On the afternoon of March 31st at Fukushima Daiichi there was a large explosion heard near reactor #4. The explosion is believed to have been caused by a pressurized tank rupturing.

According to Tepco, at 2:30pm today near the south side of the #4 reactor building, remote-controlled heavy equipment was being used to clear away rubble when a large explosion was heard. It is believed the machinery ruptured a tank that was buried in the rubble. Exactly what type of tank it was is now under investigation, but there was no fire and there were no injuries. There was no change in the surrounding radiation levels.

http://news.tv-asahi.co.jp/ann/news/web/html/210531044.html

Reported by NHK as an oxygen cylinder:

http://www3.nhk.or.jp/daily/english/31_36.html

An oxygen cylinder has burst at the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear plant. But the plant operator says the blast caused no damage to the plant's facilities, and no injuries.

 

[TCups]

Needing a mechanism to pull slight vacuum on unit 4?

How about the explosion of Unit 3?

see:
https://www.physicsforums.com/showpost.php?p=3247529&postcount=3766

 

[zapperzero]

Are the diesels already repaired?

One EDG (emergency diesel generator, is this the approved initialism? alphabet soup in nuke industry is almost as bad as the army) was spared by the tsunami and this is one of the big reasons why 5 and 6 are not in the situation the rest are in. Afaicr they used that EDG exclusively to power cooling, alternatively, to the reactors and their pools until offsite power became available.

 

[zapperzero]

Just wanted you to know... This http://ex-skf.blogspot.com/" sometimes has interesting news but it also is perhaps too sensational.

The amount of bad news and utter BS s/he's wading through could make anyone a bit frantic. The source material, though? Pure gold, everything or almost everything confirmed, all open source info...