Japan Earthquake: Nuclear Plants at Fukushima Daiichi

In summary: RCIC consists of a series of pumps, valves, and manifolds that allow coolant to be circulated around the reactor pressure vessel in the event of a loss of the main feedwater supply.In summary, the earthquake and tsunami may have caused a loss of coolant at the Fukushima Daiichi NPP, which could lead to a meltdown. The system for cooling the reactor core is designed to kick in in the event of a loss of feedwater, and fortunately this appears not to have happened yet.
  • #2,381
AntonL said:
@TCups - maybe this will help

a 500mm telephoto lense has a field of view of 5degrees and explosion video is heavy telephoto as no colour definition,

OK, that analysis fits pretty darned well compared to my earlier guesstimate:

https://www.physicsforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=33874&d=1301669768

https://www.physicsforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=33875&d=1301672183

Even the shadow on the south side of Bldg 4 lines up.Here are a couple of additional questions for critical analysis by someone who knows and can critically analyze photos for that sort of thing, Anton:

Do the size, number and distribution of the rod like objects in this photo fit the description of the number of 4 meter x 3 cm (roughly?) individual fuel rods that might be in a single fuel rod assembly?

http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn270/tcups/64f1c409.jpg

Does it make sense that a flying fuel handling machine would drag an attached single fuel rod assembly behind like the tail of a kite and that the fuel rod assembly would smash open on top of the bulk of the FHM as the FHM impacts the building?

Do the girders about the proposed NE corner impact site look to be bent downwards vs the upward and outward bending at the blast site on the SE corner?
 
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  • #2,382
Bodge said:
Radical move suggested by Kyodo News:

URGENT: Gov't eyes injecting nitrogen into reactor vessels to prevent blasts

TOKYO, April 1, Kyodo

"The government and Tokyo Electric Power Co. are considering injecting nitrogen into containment vessels of the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear power plant's reactors to prevent hydrogen explosions, government sources said Friday."

http://english.kyodonews.jp/news/2011/04/82625.html

Assuming that the melted reactor core is on the other side of the reactor bottom, what kind of stress fractures could the injection of liquid nitrogen into the reactor containment vessel add to all the other Cluster Fukushima things that have happened?
 
  • #2,383
RE: EARLIER REPORT OF A FALLING CRANE AT BLDG 3?

jlduh said:
Just for info: it seems the french IRSN is no more publishing any daily report... The last one is from 29 th of March!
http://www.irsn.fr/FR/Actualites_presse/Actualites/Pages/201103_situation_au_japon.aspx#1

WHY?

jlduh:

was it one of these earlier reports that described the "crane" falling at the north end of Bldg. 3? I think it was, and perhaps I didn't get an accurate translation. Any additional info you could provide would be helpful. Thanks.
 
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  • #2,384
There is a huge hole in the turbine building directly seaward from unit #3. Is this a possible location that the heavy item rejected in the explosion of #3, and could it lead to finding higher rad levels in the turbine buildings?
 
  • #2,385
THE BLAST AT BLDG 3 - DID THE FHM GO BALLISTIC?

Here, again, is a good shot of the green fuel handling machine and an attached fuel rod assembly posted earlier by timeasterday, post# 2264

https://www.physicsforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=33819&d=1301603739

And here is the damage at the north side of Bldg 3 with a lot of green debris and the rod-like objects in the center of the "crater". This from the hi-res fly-over photos uplinked by Fred.

http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn270/tcups/FHMCrater.png

and finally, here is a screen shot from the video, Photoshop'ed (using Image/Adjustments/AutoColor) from this video: http://video.ft.com/v/825918290001/Fukushima-nuclear-plant-explosion

http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn270/tcups/Falling-FHM.jpg

I propose this is a picture of the FHM as it falls, just before striking the north side of Bldg 3.
 
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  • #2,386
TCups said:
RE: EARLIER REPORT OF A FALLING CRANE AT BLDG 3?



jlduh:

was it one of these earlier reports that described the "crane" falling at the north end of Bldg. 3? I think it was, and perhaps I didn't get an accurate translation. Any additional info you could provide would be helpful. Thanks.

The most recent posting from the IRSN dated Mar 31 says that because the situation has stabilized, they will issue bulletins only as events require in the future.

This may be a hopeful sign.
 
  • #2,387
Thanks again to all for the extremely interesting discussions of facts here, it looks like this is an island of sanity on the web...

I went through a bunch of pages here, but could not find anything again about the Pu that was measured. Has the situation evolved?

I also found an interesting paper about toxicity of Pu which is interesting to read:
http://barryonenergy.wordpress.com/2011/03/31/a-perspective-on-the-dangers-of-plutonium/
published by LLNL in 1995
 
  • #2,388
TCups said:
THE BLAST AT BLDG 3 - DID THE FHM GO BALLISTIC?

Here, again, is a good shot of the green fuel handling machine and an attached fuel rod assembly posted earlier by timeasterday, post# 2264

https://www.physicsforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=33819&d=1301603739

And here is the damage at the north side of Bldg 3 with a lot of green debris and the rod-like objects in the center of the "crater". This from the hi-res fly-over photos uplinked by Fred.

http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn270/tcups/FHMCrater.png

and finally, here is a screen shot from the video, Photoshop'ed (using Image/Adjustments/AutoColor) from this video: http://video.ft.com/v/825918290001/Fukushima-nuclear-plant-explosion

http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn270/tcups/Falling-FHM.jpg

I propose this is a picture of the FHM as it falls, just before striking the north side of Bldg 3.



TCups--

I had doubted your hypothesis, but that last screen-grab is very convincing.
That does indeed look like something big, and long, and green tumbling down towards the north end of the building.

I do still have doubts that that would've produced all the massive damage seen on the north and north-east of the building.
I'd probably tend to think that some of it was already blown to hell before the FHM landed on it.
And I still have a hard time believing that an attached fuel-rod bundle could have stayed even somewhat intact through that explosion, trajectory, and impact --but what the heck do I know?
 
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  • #2,390
IAEA has monitoring teams in Japan, so hopefully they will provide independent assessments of radioactivity.

Further evacuations a possibility
http://www.world-nuclear-news.org/RS_Further_evacuations_a_possibility_3103111.html
31 March 2011

Various agencies outside of Japan seem to indicate the situation has been more or less stabilized.

Update:

Tepco's plans for water issues
http://www.world-nuclear-news.org/RS_Tepcos_plans_for_water_issues_0104112.html
01 April 2011
Engineers have plans to deal with contaminated water at the Fukushima Daiichi site, although enacting them will take time. New water storage and treatment facilities are planned for construction.
 
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  • #2,391
http://english.kyodonews.jp/photos/assets/201104/0401014-thumb450x.jpg
Fukushima nuclear plant
Handout photo taken by a camera attached to the tip of the arm of a concrete squeeze pump shows inside the broken building housing the No. 4 reactor of the Fukushima Daiichi Nuclear Power Station in Fukushima Prefecture on March 24, 2011. Steam is seen rising from around a fuel-handling crane (top L, green). The pump's 50-meter arm has been used to pour water into the spent fuel pool of the reactor as part of efforts to get the crippled plant under control. (Photo courtesy of Tokyo Electric Power Co.) (Kyodo)

http://english.kyodonews.jp/photos/2011/04/82477.html
 
  • #2,392
Astronuc said:
IAEA has monitoring teams in Japan, so hopefully they will provide independent assessments of radioactivity.

Further evacuations a possibility
http://www.world-nuclear-news.org/RS_Further_evacuations_a_possibility_3103111.html
31 March 2011

Various agencies outside of Japan seem to indicate the situation has been more or less stabilized.
On 1 April, Prime Minister Naoto Kan admitted that the plant had not yet been "sufficiently stabilised", acknowledging it would be a "long-term battle". http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-12933010
 
  • #2,393
tc2468 said:
..

Thank you Tc it was reported and analysed earlier today https://www.physicsforums.com/showpost.php?p=3223197&postcount=2362
and the actual picture is kind of old news and has been discussed several pages ago (I know it's moving fast)

Gunderson, is in my opinion mistaken and miss lead by the viewing angle and the lens (very wide angle introducing lost of deformation), I actually sent him a letter to tell him.

The fuel handling crane is slightly into the pool but mostly above and the top of rod should be one floor bellow
Top view (mind the perspective)
http://english.kyodonews.jp/photos/assets/201104/0401014-thumb450x.jpg
Horizontal view with less distortion (posted several pages ago)
[PLAIN]http://k.min.us/iknNEA.jpg
 
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  • #2,394
dave2004 said:
Thanks again to all for the extremely interesting discussions of facts here, it looks like this is an island of sanity on the web...

I went through a bunch of pages here, but could not find anything again about the Pu that was measured. Has the situation evolved?

I also found an interesting paper about toxicity of Pu which is interesting to read:
http://barryonenergy.wordpress.com/2011/03/31/a-perspective-on-the-dangers-of-plutonium/
published by LLNL in 1995

An interesting article Dave, thanks for posting. The author has a phd and seems to have done all his homework. After reading through it carefully, I had this strange idea on who could have carried out the required experiments on humans to see how lethal a dose one needs of Pu or anything else. It diverted my attention, and made me somewhat skepticle. Can anyone find results of animal experimentation? Or is that too inhumane? If one needs to know how poisons affect life, unfortunately, they would have to experiment on the living. Perhaps an antidote could be developed.
 
  • #2,395
I kind of tried to figure how much a micro particle of Pu would dose you in an other post
https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=485732

2332 Bq a day alpha decay from there I was kind of stuck to get a dose equivalent

edit: did not notice astroduc edit.. my calculation need to be adjusted according to the provided pdf .. but Its out of my leap
 
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  • #2,396
interesting perspective

"socialwaves.blog.youphil.com/media/02/02/1227006032.pdf"[/URL]
 

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  • #2,397
tc2468 said:
interesting perspective

"socialwaves.blog.youphil.com/media/02/02/1227006032.pdf"[/URL][/QUOTE]

Posted and discussed several pages back already.
 
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  • #2,398
tc2468 said:
interesting perspective

"socialwaves.blog.youphil.com/media/02/02/1227006032.pdf"[/URL][/QUOTE]

edit:
Nice find tc2468, and by the previous poster, man you guys are fast ! I am wondering with the growing mass of evidence and data available in this thread if the top posters (see thumbnail below), awesome job BTW you guys, would like to create your own .pdf file with a reactor by reactor best guess damage assessment of reactor, inner and outer containment structure.

You guys seem to have almost all the pieces of the puzzle and have been beating each other up in an attempt to reach honest consensus, a great thing IMHO. I for one would like to thank you all for the countless hours you have spent in this worthy endeavor. Many thanks Astronuc and Borek for keeping this thread alive, on track and vibrant with new content. That's why I love this place and continue to come back for more, it is because of folks (for the most part new) like you.

Rhody... :biggrin: :cool: :approve:
 

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  • #2,399
  • #2,400
Reports of a "blue flashing light." Not sure where they got this news or if there's any proof.

 
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  • #2,401
TCups said:
I had thought that the original blast at Bldg 3 is on the SOUTH end of the building. The damage on the north end sends stuff crashing downward. If the blast photo is taken from inland, looking eastward, then the blast is to the right, southward. Two towers bracket Bldg 4, on the blast (south) side of Bldg 3. A large hunk of debris comes down on the north side of Bldg 3. But the more I look, I can't make that orientation fit with the towers. Someone help me here.

The video of the blast is taken from the southwest. We see two walls of each reactor building, the south wall in the sun to the right, and the west wall in the shade, to the left. The middle antenna separates one from the other the other in the picture. That is, we see it aligned with the south-west edge of the building. Is that of any help?
 
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  • #2,402
timeasterday said:
Reports of a "blue flashing light." Not sure where they got this news or if there's any proof.



This is worrying news, no because of the 'blue light', but nothing to back that news up. No photos, no video and source is unknown. Newscorps are in need of more scandalous headlines as things slow down at site due TESCO and their info-output.
 
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  • #2,403
Regarding the blue flashing light, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cherenkov_radiation" perhaps ? Is it possible to be created intermittently as claimed in the News Report ?

Rhody...
 
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  • #2,404
tc2468 said:
interesting perspective

"socialwaves.blog.youphil.com/media/02/02/1227006032.pdf"[/URL][/QUOTE] There should be another page. The one cited is missing several plants, such as Kyushu's Sendai, Chugoku's Shimane, Hokuriku's Shika, Tohoku's Onagawa and Higashidori, JAPCo's Tokai Daini and Tsuruga, KEPCO's Ohi and Takahama, and Hokkaido's Tomari plants.

Chubu's Hamaoka Units 1 and 2 have been shutdown and are being decommissioned, while preparation for Unit 6, which will replace Units 1 and 2, is underway.
 
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  • #2,405
Here, reproduced from an ORNL report which itself used an original GE plant layout diagram is a new illustration for this blog. This is a BWR plant with a Mk I containment like at Fukushima Daiichi, but which shows a turbine building and typical layout. Now, this overall plant layout shown has the turbine building rotated 90 degrees as compared with Fukushima Daiichi. On the plant shown below, the turbine building is "end on" to the reactor building. However, this might help some folks who are wishing they could at least somehow picture what's going on inside the plants now that the turbine buildings, condensers, and pipe tunnels or "trenches" are making headlines. Keep this in mind when you look at the pic -- the features don't match Fukushima of course but it's a good general representation

http://k.min.us/im97DI.png

Credit: Will Davis Former US Navy Reactor Operator; qualified RO on S8G and S5W submarine reactor plants.
 
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  • #2,406
timeasterday said:
Reports of a "blue flashing light." Not sure where they got this news or if there's any proof.

That video is not really helpful. The reporter talks mostly about dosimeters.

With just decay heat, the blue light or Cerenkov radiation should be continuous, i.e., it should not flash. It would only be bright in the vicinity of the fuel.

If one was getting a blue flash emanating from the upper containment area, unless it's due to an electrical arc or shorted electrical system, it would have to be coming from the SFP, which is not good news.

I would like to have a 'realiable' source to confirm the 'blue flash'.
 
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  • #2,408
shogun338 said:
Damaged Reactor #4 video taken from pump truck . http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=30c_1301689134

What is the grey looking mass that looks like it has flowed from where the steam is coming from ? Looks almost like molten lead .
 
  • #2,409
Re: http://atomicinsights.com/2011/04/fukushima-nuclear-accident-exceptional-summary-by-murray-e-miles.html about the SFP at Unit 4:

You need to hear one more complication in the design. The fuel pool is really two pools separated by a gate. Fuel removed from the reactor goes first into the small, upper pool which is only 20 or 25 feet deep. Later they move the fuel to the big, deep pool. There was apparently only a little fuel in this upper pool at the time of the quake.

This UPPER pool broke. The three-eighths inch steel liner is cracked and will not hold water. The concrete wall in front of this upper pool fell off. Fuel was severely damaged probably by explosion. Temperature profiles measured by helicopters show clumps of hot stuff that must be fuel scattered around the floor area. This scenario is consistent with the numerous reports of fire in unit 4.
 
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  • #2,410
re: blue light:

A criticality accident occurs when the minimum amount of fissile material required to sustain a chain reaction is accidentally brought together. For example, when the nucleus of Uranium-235 disintegrates, two or three neutrons are released, and each is capable of causing another nucleus to disintegrate. However, if the total mass of the U-235 is insufficient to sustain a chain reaction, the neutrons simply escape. In most criticality accidents this chain reaction is very short lived, causing a neutron population spike and resultant radiation, heat and, in many cases, an ethereal "blue flash," a phenomenon of the air surrounding a neutron burst becoming ionized and giving off a flash of blue light.

http://www.lanl.gov/news/index.php/fuseaction/home.story/story_id/1054"

see also http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticality_accident#observed_effects

Blue glow
Main article: Ionized air glow

Many criticality accidents have been observed to emit a blue flash of light and to heat the material substantially. This blue flash or "blue glow" is often incorrectly attributed to Cherenkov radiation, most likely due to the very similar color of the light emitted by both of these phenomena. This is merely a coincidence.

Cherenkov radiation is produced by charged particles which are traveling through a dielectric substance at a speed greater than the speed of light in that medium. The only types of charged particle radiation produced in the process of a criticality accident (fission reactions) are alpha particles, beta particles, positrons (which all come from the radioactive decay of unstable daughter products of the fission reaction) and energetic ions which are the daughter products themselves. Of these, only beta particles have sufficient penetrating power to travel more than a few centimeters in air. Since air is a very low density material, its index of refraction (around n=1.0002926) differs very little from that of a vacuum (n=1) and consequently the speed of light in air is only about 0.03% slower than its speed in a vacuum. Therefore, a beta particle emitted from decaying fission products would need to have a velocity greater than 99.97% c in order to produce Cherenkov radiation. Because the energy of beta particles produced during nuclear decay do not exceed energies of about 20 MeV (20.6 MeV for 14B is likely the most energetic[24]) and the energy needed for a beta particle to attain 99.97% c is 20.3 MeV, the possibility of Cherenkov radiation produced in air via a fission criticality is virtually eliminated.

Instead, the blue glow of a criticality accident results from the spectral emission of the excited ionized atoms (or excited molecules) of air (mostly oxygen and nitrogen) falling back to unexcited states, which happens to produce an abundance of blue light. This is also the reason electrical sparks in air, including lightning, appear electric blue. It is a coincidence that the color of Cherenkov light and light emitted by ionized air are a very similar blue despite their very different methods of production. It would be also interesting to remark that the ozone smell was said to be a sign of high radioactivity field through Chernobyl liquidators.

The only situation where Cherenkov light may contribute a significant amount of light to the blue flash is where the criticality occurs underwater or fully in solution (such as uranyl nitrate in a reprocessing plant) and this would be visible only if the container were open or transparent.[citation needed]
 
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  • #2,412
83729780 said:
re: blue light:
In the context of Los Alamos and their experiments in criticality with highly enriched metal sphere of U or Pu, then yes, the 'blue flash' would occur in air. However, that is more likely to be ionization of air, not Cerenkov radiation.

In the case of BWR fuel, the enrichments are about 4%, and less when spent. There is also fission products. LWR fuel requires water moderation for criticality, so if there is no water, there is no criticality of spent fuel. The blue light would pretty much require water to be present.

Out of the pool, I wouldn't expect to see much in the way of blue light, and certainly not a blue flash.


As for atomicinsights, I wouldn't put a lot of stock in the article. The Fukushima units are not the same as Oyster Creek, even though they may have Mk I in common. I'm not aware of upper and lower SFP pools.
 
  • #2,413
Neutron beams have also been observed this week .http://search.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/nn20110324a6.html
 
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  • #2,414
shogun338 said:
Neutron beams have also been observed this week .http://search.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/nn20110324a6.html
I'm skeptical of such reports. I believe part of the problem is translation.

One so-called beam was reported at 1.5 km from the plant. I can't see a colimated beam at the that distance. The source would have to be pretty intense, and I'd imagine that folks at the plant would receive a fatal dose.

I would like folks to use reliable sources, and treat media reports with a healthy amount of skepticism. I have read a lot of nonsense claims, some published by self-proclaimed or purported experts.
 
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