Japan Earthquake: Nuclear Plants at Fukushima Daiichi

[Cire]

Japan has asked Russia to send a floating radiation treatment plant, used to decommission nuclear submarines, which will solidify contaminated liquid waste from the Fukushima Daiichi plant, Russian media reported.

Interesting.

http://www.tecsec.org/pdf/projectpostru01_e.pdf

 

[shogun338]

The sound in that video has been added in by someone . I have the video of Unit 3 exploding and there is no sound like that . Where did they get the sound that was added to the video ?

The camera is miles away and sound does not travel that fast .

 

[Jorge Stolfi]

Here is a labeled version of my "hallucination". The http://www.spiegel.de/images/image-198534-galleryV9-orwt.jpg" , was posted by AntonL.

1 - fuel rods from one assembly?
2 - wider water tube from center of assembly?
3 - bottom of assembly?
4 - racks from spent-fuel pool?
5 - sleeve of assembly?
6 - sleeve of assembly, burst open, oxidized on outer side?
7 - water in/out pipes from spen-fuel pool?

Item 7 seems to match a model of the SPF shown on NHK. Items 6 of course are more likely to be metal roof panels (but where from?)

OK, time to go to bed...

 

[|Fred]

I'll get back to you later Tcup I need to think more, meanwhile
here is an other diagram of a BWR that looks a lot like fukushima exept that the storage pool and the utility pool are inversed

from the same site, filled with information
http://www.nucleartourist.com/frame/index.html
I've learned that piping and lots of thing in a NPR are color coded... so all the pink stuff we are seeing are coded for something..

 

[|Fred]

thank to the above site I leaned that the BWR 4 by GE was used in the Vermont Yankee (BWR-4) Plant

and looking into this plant I was able to get this picture witch I believe is an accurate representation of what reactor 3 at fukushima looks like (with the exeption of the color coding)
[URL]http://cache.boston.com/resize/bonzai-fba/Globe_Photo/2009/05/03/1241407279_5282/539w.jpg[/URL]

I know need to think and try to figure what we could be seeing .. on the previous screen grab

 

[shogun338]

Here is a labeled version of my "hallucination". The http://www.spiegel.de/images/image-198534-galleryV9-orwt.jpg" , was posted by AntonL.

1 - fuel rods from one assembly?
2 - wider water tube from center of assembly?
3 - bottom of assembly?
4 - racks from spent-fuel pool?
5 - sleeve of assembly?
6 - sleeve of assembly, burst open, oxidized on outer side?
7 - water in/out pipes from spen-fuel pool?

Item 7 seems to match a model of the SPF shown on NHK. Items 6 of course are more likely to be metal roof panels (but where from?)

OK, time to go to bed...

Short line on #4 is pointing to top edge of spent fuel pool . On the pump cam video you can see this is where they are pouring water into . See pic I posted of spent fuel pool . #2650

 

[razzz]

The sound in that video has been added in by someone . I have the video of Unit 3 exploding and there is no sound like that . Where did they get the sound that was added to the video ?

If I remember right, footage was taken from the next nearest nuclear plant in line of sight. The distance accounts for the delayed sound waves other than that local background noise. What type of sound were you expecting to hear?

 

[AtomicWombat]

Here is a labeled version of my "hallucination". The http://www.spiegel.de/images/image-198534-galleryV9-orwt.jpg" , was posted by AntonL.
1 - fuel rods from one assembly?
2 - wider water tube from center of assembly?
3 - bottom of assembly?
4 - racks from spent-fuel pool?
5 - sleeve of assembly?
6 - sleeve of assembly, burst open, oxidized on outer side?
7 - water in/out pipes from spen-fuel pool?

And don't forget the corium melt in the middle of the mess.

I must admit that 1 & 3 look highly suggestive, especially given the location. But until there is more evidence it's all a big maybe. I keep seeing fuel rods all over the place.

As to whether they should have melted or should show up on IR. Once the spent fuel rods have a good air supply they will probably cool by convection and not melt. The IR images are from above not from the side, so this site would be at least partially obscured by what's left of the ceiling. Finally, they would be below the resolution of the IR image, so the IR will just average them with their surroundings.

But, we need more evidence and we will probably never know. Shame.

 

[shogun338]

If I remember right, footage was taken from the next nearest nuclear plant in line of sight. The distance accounts for the delayed sound waves other than that local background noise. What type of sound were you expecting to hear?

The sound comes to soon . Even if the camera was only one mile away it would take the sound of the explosion around 5 seconds or more to reach camera . Camera is more than a few miles away .

 

[Borek]

How about this one, "Why is the word 'pressure' automatically linked in this forum, while 'temperature' is not?"?

This one I can help you with

Physics Forums library has entry for "pressure" but has not entry for "temperature".

Note that you can switch off automatic library linking in your profile.

 

[AtomicWombat]

If I remember right, footage was taken from the next nearest nuclear plant in line of sight. The distance accounts for the delayed sound waves other than that local background noise. What type of sound were you expecting to hear?

The sound "arrives" 2 seconds after the blast. At sea level the speed of sound is 343.2 m/s, so if this is a "faithful" recording, the camera is only about 700 m away, less than half a mile.

Fukushima Daini is about 10 km away and (from memory) I think the camera was around 20 km away at the time.

 

[TCups]

PROPOSED MECHANISM FOR DRYWELL BLAST, UNIT 3, CAUSING BLOWOUT AT TRANSFER CHUTE AND LEAK AT EQUIPMENT POOL

thank to the above site I leaned that the BWR 4 by GE was used in the Vermont Yankee (BWR-4) Plant

and looking into this plant I was able to get this picture witch I believe is an accurate representation of what reactor 3 at fukushima looks like (with the exeption of the color coding)
[URL]http://cache.boston.com/resize/bonzai-fba/Globe_Photo/2009/05/03/1241407279_5282/539w.jpg[/URL]

I know need to think and try to figure what we could be seeing .. on the previous screen grab

@Fred:

You were right about the orientation. My bad, the video did skip around a bit. I think the previous frame grab is looking in through the side of the small pool -- green arrow -- and that there is either a gate on that side, which I cannot confirm, or worse, a crack in the upper portion of the primary containment. But my earlier error also clears up a discrepancy that was nagging me, now corrected. The screen shot does confirm damage from a blast coming from inside the drywell containment, but shows (relatively) less damage on the equipment pool side than might be expected if the entire gate from the transfer chute on the SFP side blew out. In principle, it would take a tremendous blast to vaporize the contents of the SFP, and a crack as small as seen venting steam on the equipment pool side would not likely explain that.

. . . also

@AtomicWombat
If you look carefully at the diagram, you will see the large wench atop the crane I referred to earlier.

http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn270/tcups/Picture56-1.png

Fred, again:

http://cache.boston.com/resize/bonzai-fba/Globe_Photo/2009/05/03/1241407279_5282/539w.jpg

Does your photo show that an entire section of one side of the drywall containment (perhaps big enough to transfer the pressure vessel head under water to the equipment pool?) has been removed, or am I being fooled by a reflection in the pool? Is that the pressure vessel cap seen in the equipment pool opposite the opening to the reactor vessel? Perhaps the whole side of the equipment pool can be removed, for all I know.

Yes!

http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn270/tcups/Picture2-4.png

See annotation. The fuel rod is about to go through the transfer chute (red arrow) the back wall of the primary containment at the drywell head is open and the RPV cap is sitting in the equipment pool (green arrow).

The earlier screen grab is steam venting through one of the cracks near the southwest corner of the equipment pool. The equipment pool "gate" probably survived the blast better because the equipment pool was still full of water with its hydrostatic pressure backing the gate, whereas, at the fuel rod transfer chute, the water opposite the transfer gate had boiled off. The blast was much greater and more concentrated on the south side. And as before, much of the damage on the north side of Bldg 3 was probably the falling FHM.

The "fish eye" photo of the reactor pool would be taken from the deck of the FHM with the photographer's back to the SFP.

 

[AtomicWombat]

@AtomicWombat
If you look carefully at the diagram, you will see the large wench atop the crane I referred to earlier.
http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn270/tcups/Picture56-1.png

You've maid my day...

 

[rmattila]

1 - fuel rods from one assembly?
4 - racks from spent-fuel pool?

Difficult to say for certain, since the resolution of the picture is not too good. However, to my eye #1 and #4 look very much like the rack that is used to store and replace in-core neutron flux detectors. These detectors are long (> 10 m) and thin, and need such a rack to enable storage and replacement. This rack would probably be stored in the horizontal position somewhere in the reactor hall, and since unit 4 was undergoing maintenance, it has probably been used recently.

 

[razzz]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M22Gt4sswEA"

At about 5:00min. into this video, I believe a great big void is shown in Unit 3, what is it? There are other angles of Units 3 & 4 during the flyover.

At 4:46min in, you talk about rods laying around but #4 rebar is kinda like a pencil's diameter and hanging out of broken concrete all over the place along with other size rebar. Rebar doesn't shine, stainless steel conduit would. like someone else mentioned was used in this construction to shield wiring runs.

 

[artax]

quite disturbing... does he know something we don't?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-W7uGvW8xvY&feature=player_embedded#at=54

 

[|Fred]

I believe we have some evidence concurring Tcups analysis .
still there is an issue assuming the part that we see in the video is in deed the temp wall and the slap is joining at the top. The lower part of this temps wall seems missing but it can't be missing otherwise steam would be visible ? If we assumed it is caved like a stair, how do we explained it is caved in rather than out?
when the explosion occurred the blast toke place above the slab exerting a pressure from the equipment pool toward the primary Containment , the top of the wall hit the slab edge and did not move.. but the lower caved in ?

http://i.min.us/imVuLK.jpg

 

[jensjakob]

Fred, TCups

Great analysis - spot on I think.

 

[razzz]

Vacuum? First it sucks in then explodes outwards. Some the structure didn't recover from the first effect. Then some things launched like from a cannon.

 

[PietKuip]

quite disturbing... does he know something we don't?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-W7uGvW8xvY&feature=player_embedded#at=54

"Low-level radioactive waste" sounds like a euphemism. They should provide a number for the total activities of what is coming out into the environment. Maybe in units of Chernobyls.

 

[TCups]

PROPOSED MECHANISM OF MULTIPLE BLASTS, BLDG 3: PRIMARY BLAST CAME FROM DRYWELL WITH SECONDARY EXPLOSIONS IN THE UPPER BUILDING AND LOWER BUILDING.

I believe we have some evidence concurring Tcups analysis .
still there is an issue assuming the part that we see in the video is in deed the temp wall and the slap is joining at the top. The lower part of this temps wall seems missing but it can't be missing otherwise steam would be visible ? If we assumed it is caved like a strait, how do we explained it is caved in rather than out?
when the explosion occurred the blast toke place above the slab exerting a pressure from the equipment pool toward the primary Containment , the top of the wall hit the slab edge and did not move.. but the lower caved in ?

http://i.min.us/imVuLK.jpg

No. I maintain, as I have always maintained, that the primary blast came out of the drywell containment, just like the steam venting now. There was very probably hydrogen in the upper building as well. The blast from the drywell, through the transfer chute was the initial fireball seen rising from the southeast corner of Bldg 3. That blast 1) vaporized the remaining water in SFP3 to steam, launching the FHM, and 2) ignited a secondary explosion in the upper building.

The blast from the drywell came from emergency venting of hydrogen from the RPV within the drywell, or quake damage to the pipes entering/exiting the RPV or some combination thereof. Hydrogen, under pressure, with steam, under pressure, displaced the nitrogen, vented to the torus pool and rose into the lower building as well venting through the drywell cap into the upper building. When the RPV got hot enough, it set the whole thing off -- BANG! - BANG! - BANG! -- RPV, upper building blowout, lower building blow out.

 

[razzz]

quite disturbing... does he know something we don't?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-W7uGvW8xvY&feature=player_embedded#at=54

In my travels around YouTube I found a flyover after the sea surge. Units 5&6 not shown up close but if they got saltwater in their equipment it wouldn't take long to ruined a bearing, shaft, wiring connections or a lot of other stuff. Can't find a report on how high the sea reached at the complex. Shouldn't forget about sand either.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LUGAbMVG-qc"

 

[TCups]

ARE EXPOSED FUEL RODS SEEN ON TOP OF THE DAMAGED NORTH END OF BLDG 3? -- VERY UNLIKELY WITHOUT CONFIRMATORY THERMAL IMAGES

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M22Gt4sswEA"

At about 5:00min. into this video, I believe a great big void is shown in Unit 3, what is it? There are other angles of Units 3 & 4 during the flyover.

At 4:46min in, you talk about rods laying around but #4 rebar is kinda like a pencil's diameter and hanging out of broken concrete all over the place along with other size rebar. Rebar doesn't shine, stainless steel conduit would. like someone else mentioned was used in this construction to shield wiring runs.

Regarding the infamous rod-like objects on the upper level of Bldg 3. While I can propose a theoretical mechanism for fuel rods getting there (albeit a bizarre mechanism - being yanked out of the SFP by a ballistic FHM), in the absence of IR thermal images showing a heat signature from the area of the rods, they almost certainly are not spent fuel rods open to the air. What they are, I am not sure.

 

[TCups]

Fred, TCups

Great analysis - spot on I think.

Thanks, Jens.

@Fred: If this proposal turns out to be correct, and I think after several missteps, it is pretty close, then you, sir, get as much credit as me. Your photos were invaluable and your dogged skepticism when something didn't fit eventually pointed to what may be a reasonable explanation. I also note that you haven't wholeheartedly endorsed it yet, so I wonder if I may have made another mistake you will catch

Thank you, Fred!

Now, what the heck happened at Unit 4?!

 

[AntonL]

Analysis of sea water near Unit 2 water leak
http://www.meti.go.jp/press/2011/04/20110405007/20110405007-4.pdf
[PLAIN]http://i.min.us/imZSrg.GIF

with levels 5.4MBq/cm³

Tepco seem to have a new policy - reporting I-131, Cs-134 and Cs-137 only,
the others are for us to guess.

 

[TCups]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M22Gt4sswEA"

At about 5:00min. into this video, I believe a great big void is shown in Unit 3, what is it? There are other angles of Units 3 & 4 during the flyover.

At 4:46min in, you talk about rods laying around but #4 rebar is kinda like a pencil's diameter and hanging out of broken concrete all over the place along with other size rebar. Rebar doesn't shine, stainless steel conduit would. like someone else mentioned was used in this construction to shield wiring runs.

Guessing, but . . .

That "void" if you stare into it, is probably the depths of SFP3. You can see part of the wall (blue lines), a faint green glow deep in the depths of the hole (green arrow), (Photoshop/Image/Adjustments/AutoColor) that may be fuel, if there was some water left, or if they got some water in there before the fly over -- otherwise wouldn't the glow be red? "X" might be about where the blast came out of the transfer chute.

http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn270/tcups/Picture4.png

 

[TCups]

VIDEO WITH AUDIO OF UNIT 1's EXPLOSION?

Can anyone find the video of Unit 1 exploding with an audio track instead of a voice over? If both videos were taken from about the same place, it would be very interesting to count the booms. If Unit 1's explosion has only 1 boom and Unit 3's has 3 booms, then they aren't echoes. Conversely, if Unit 1's explosion also has 3 booms, then they are echoes.

I must get dressed and get to work . . .

 

[Giordano]

Analysis of sea water near Unit 2 water leak
http://www.meti.go.jp/press/2011/04/20110405007/20110405007-4.pdf

with levels 5.4MBq/cm³

Tepco seem to have a new policy - reporting I-131, Cs-134 and Cs-137 only,
the others are for us to guess.

This is crazy high... Is it really sea water? It's not water taken directly from the leak!?

 

[artax]

Just been posted...Here is the first flyovers/stabilised/higher definition.

There might be some more information in here.

 

[orndorf]

If the plan is to pump out all the highly radioactive water from the basements of reactors 1-3 won't the radiation levels outside skyrocket?

The water in the basement is shielding the upper levels and outside from higher levels of radiation right?That was some strange looking steam at 1:40 artax,looked like a mixture of smoke and steam.

 

[Astronuc]

If the plan is to pump out all the highly radioactive water from the basements of reactors 1-3 won't the radiation levels outside skyrocket?

They have a choice of pumping the contaminated water into a barge or into the ocean. That would increase the activity around the barge or in the ocean.

The water in the basement is shielding the upper levels and outside from higher levels of radiation right?

The water in the basement may provide some shielding of whatever the water is containing. Given that they put clean water in and get contaminated water out, this would indicate a leak somewhere in the containment or some affiliated piping system.

Given that they still need to cool the core, they need to replace the water that leaks - or stop the leak and ensure a closed cooling system, if that is possible. Otherwise, they have to collect the contaminated water and store it somewhere, and otherwise, release the contaminated water to the ocean.

 

[|Fred]

Thank you Tcups, I'm glad to contribute to the collective quest for plosive answers that you lead for a fair amount .
There is one thing that I'm still not to confident with :
What are we seeing bellow the arrows It is supposed to be a strait wall.. How do we explain what we are seeing ?

[PLAIN]http://i.min.us/ikEmCk.jpg

 

[ceebs]

The sound in that video has been added in by someone . I have the video of Unit 3 exploding and there is no sound like that . Where did they get the sound that was added to the video ?

No it's not added in, that was the sound on the live coverage, its just never been repeated as far as I know since.

 

[artax]

The sound comes to soon . Even if the camera was only one mile away it would take the sound of the explosion around 5 seconds or more to reach camera . Camera is more than a few miles away .

That sound is Definately Added afterwards. Also there was a 20km exclusion zone around the plant and I suspect these images are from that distance, they said the number 3 blast was heard 40km away but I'll be surprised if anyone recorded it.

 

[tsutsuji]

This is crazy high... Is it really sea water? It's not water taken directly from the leak!?

http://www.meti.go.jp/press/2011/04/20110405007/20110405007-4.pdf shows several kinds of samplings :

物揚場前　in front of the quay
2号機スクリーン海水　sea water at unit 2 screen
スクリーン流入水　water flowing into the screen
ケーブルピット水　cable pit water

(Edited to remove my big unit mistake , as Giordano mentions below)