Lagrangian equations - ring which is sliding along a wire

AI Thread Summary
The discussion revolves around a physics problem involving a ring sliding along a helical wire under the influence of gravity. The user is attempting to apply Lagrangian mechanics to derive motion equations and the wire's reaction force as functions of time. There is confusion regarding the application of Lagrange's equations of the first kind versus the second kind, with a request for clarification on the Lagrangian and generalized coordinates. Participants emphasize the importance of clearly defining constraint equations and the number of constraints involved in the problem. The conversation highlights the need for a solid understanding of the underlying principles of Lagrangian mechanics to solve the problem effectively.
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Homework Statement


Hello. I have this problem:
I have a ring which is sliding along a wire in the shape of a spiral because of gravity.
Spiral (helix) is given as the intersection of two surfaces: x = a*cos(kz), y = a*sin(kz). The gravity field has the z axis direction.
I have to find motion equations and find the wire reaction as a function of time.

2. Homework Equations

I have to solve it with this equation:
equation.png


The Attempt at a Solution


This is the first time, when I solve a example with Lagrangian equations, so I am not sure what to do.
I created this equations:
solution.jpg


I know, it is not the end. I have to find λ, motion equations and the wire reaction. But firstly, please, tell me, if I am right or where is mistake and why. Then I will continue.

Thank you very much.
 

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Hi,
can you tell me what
your Lagrangian is ?
your generalized coordinates are ?
all variables and given/known data are, i.e. what your relevant equation symbols represent ?
Then we can continue. :wink:
 
Do I really need the Lagrangian? When I read the study text, there was Lagrangian only in Lagrange's equations of the second kind, not in Lagrange's equations of the first kind. And I wrote there Lagrange's equations of the first kind, because in my task was, that I have to use this.

My study text is in different language, but the type of equations is same like this on 3rd page: https://www.physast.uga.edu/ag/uploads/2017%20SPRING%20-%20PHYS8011%20-%20HMWK%2004%20-%20Lagrange%20Eqs%20of%201st%20Kind.pdf

Sorry, I am confused, it is new for me.
 
Well, I'm grateful because I had to find out about these first kind Lagrange equations (look suspiciously like Newton's) . At least that revealed what ##\Phi## stands for: the constraint equations. And they are supposed to come in the form ##\Phi_\alpha = 0##. Can you make that explicit for me, so we can check your ##\partial\Phi_\alpha\over \partial x_j## ?

Furthermore: I see only one ##\lambda##. How many constraints do you have ?

Another tack (problem solving skills): approaching this from the other end: what kind of motion do you expect ? Do your intermediate equations fit that ?
 
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