Medical Physics is an exciting field

[qball]

I don't think it will come as a surprise to anyone that the economy in north america is in a slump right now. Not that I pay much attention to politics, but didn't President Obama's state of the union address just underscore a need for job creation? Automobile manufacturing for example is barely keeping its head above water.

So why should the healthcare industry be any different? It is somewhat insulated from economic fluctuation because it is so heavily influenced by govenment funding (more so in Canada), but when money is tight, hiring stalls just like anywhere else.

What I'm saying, is that this is temporary. In the coming years, the projected increases in cancer cases is going to drive up the demand for radiation therapy significantly. In my own province, the number of linacs is going to increase by about 30% over the next 5-8 years.

Not necessarily. New research may provide alternatives to radiation therapy that are equally or more effective. Radiation therapy has a lot of side effects, including the introduction of secondary cancers, and is a less-than-ideal option for treatment. As our understanding of carcinogenesis evolves there will surely be treatments to stop it in its tracks before it becomes life threatening.

 

[Choppy]

Not necessarily. New research may provide alternatives to radiation therapy that are equally or more effective. Radiation therapy has a lot of side effects, including the introduction of secondary cancers, and is a less-than-ideal option for treatment. As our understanding of carcinogenesis evolves there will surely be treatments to stop it in its tracks before it becomes life threatening.

This is a good point. There is always the probability that new treatments will come along that will change the current paradigm. Of course, the chances of something like that happening exists in just about any field.

The higher probility, in my opinion, is that the technology for cancer treatments is going to get more complex in the future. We're likely to see more detailed image guidance and adaptive RT, MRI-based guidance, and laser-accelerated ion beams which will substantially bring down the cost of proton facilities. So medical physicists are likely to see their clinical duties increase.

That, of course, is just an opinion.

 

[AtomicPile]

In my own province, the number of linacs is going to increase by about 30% over the next 5-8 years.

What province, are you in Canada?

 

[Choppy]

What province, are you in Canada?

Alberta.

 

[AtomicPile]

Alberta.

Canada's cold might create a local problem, but that translates into saying, "Canada has a shortage of medical physicists."

When passing out advice in a .com forum, as opposed to a .ca, you should state this clearly. The plain fact is that you are misleading a lot of people by your point of view.

I live in the USA. I have met medical physicists from all over the world. Australia, South America, France, Russia, India, Asia, England, Japan, New Zealand and Canada.

There is no shortage of medical physicists in the USA. For that matter there is no shortage in Australia or Japan. Some countries have a shortage by the mere fact that they use a different job title.

 

[Clancy Brown]

I have met medical physicists from all over the world. Australia, South America, France, Russia, India, Asia, England, Japan, New Zealand and Canada.

For that matter there is no shortage in Australia or Japan.

Wow Atomicpile you surprised me, I thought you were too ignorant to understand that there was a world beyond the North American borders ie USA and Canada.

"Australia wide there is a vacancy rate of almost 14% for Radiation Oncology Medical Physicists (ROMPs). A worldwide shortage of qualified physicists (ROMPs) makes it difficult to fill the vacancies by overseas recruitment. "

http://www.qld-cpc.org.au/domain_Medical%20Physics%20Career%20Information.htm

 

[Clancy Brown]

Also in New Zealand

Job Outlook
Medical physicists are in demand throughout New Zealand and chances of getting a job in this area are excellent.

Skill shortage information
There is an immediate term skill shortage for this job.

Source: Department of Immigration NZ, Skills Shortages

 

[AtomicPile]

Also in New Zealand

Job Outlook
Medical physicists are in demand throughout New Zealand and chances of getting a job in this area are excellent.

Skill shortage information
There is an immediate term skill shortage for this job.

Source: Department of Immigration NZ, Skills Shortages

Hi Clancy,

How many physicists does New Zealand & Aus need? Have fun bashing me, but that is my point. If your program outputs 100 medical physicists and your shortage is 5, then you are creating unemployed professionals. Are the people in your program expecting jobs in their home country? Are you sure that medical physics is different than health physics? Has that occurred to you?

In the USA you could contact Paul Keal at Stanford University (paul.keall@stanford.edu). He left New Zealand to come to the USA. Paul received his degrees at:

University of Waikato, Hamilton, New Zealand, B.S. (Physics and Mathematics)
University of Adelaide, Adelaide, Australia, M.S. (Health Physics)
University of Adelaide, Adelaide, Australia, Ph.D. (Physics)

Note that Paul did not get a degree in "medical physics". That should tell you something very powerful.

Here is a link to Australian College of Physical Scientists & Engineers in Medicine:

http://www.acpsem.org.au/index.php/component/jobline/

Note that engineer is part of the society's name and not physicists.

I imagine that Paul would appreciate a pay raise, so you could ask him to return and train the locals.

 

[Clancy Brown]

How many physicists does New Zealand & Aus need?

As many that are willing to come and work here I guess.

Have fun bashing me

I was being honest, and you did surprise me.

If your program outputs 100 medical physicists and your shortage is 5, then you are creating unemployed professionals.

There not enough people in the program to satisfy demand, hence 100% employment.

Are you sure that medical physics is different than health physics? Has that occurred to you?

I am actually highlighting the shortage of "Radiation Oncology Medical Physicist (ROMP)" ie Medical Physicist here in Australia

In the USA you could contact Paul Keal at Stanford University (paul.keall@stanford.edu). He left New Zealand to come to the USA.

Cool, thanks for the contact, for future reference

Here is a link to Australian College of Physical Scientists & Engineers in Medicine:

http://www.acpsem.org.au/index.php/component/jobline/

surely I would know my own accreditation body

I imagine that Paul would appreciate a pay raise, so you could ask him to return and train the locals.

Moot point, he may be paid more where he is; the pay is not the issue. I can make more as a Biomedical engineer as I would as a ROMP and with far less training.

Atomicpile, why don't you venture down here and work, you already have a link to the job board.

 

[AtomicPile]

Atomicpile, why don't you venture down here and work, you already have a link to the job board.

OK, Clancy. Send me your e-mail.

 

[Clancy Brown]

Atomicpile, you can reach me here << e-mail address deleted by berkeman >>

 

[berkeman]

Atomicpile, you can reach me here << e-mail address deleted by berkeman >>

Please send e-mail addresses by PM. We discourage posting e-mail addresses in the open forums.

 

[AtomicPile]

I actually came across the profession Radiation Oncology Medical Physicist (ROMP) quite by mistake. I have done a great deal of research into the profession in the last three weeks, and am meeting my State Government's director in Radiation Oncology in the coming weeks to discuss the profession futher.

From my perspective (down under), there is a shortage of ROMPs; why would the director be so keen to meet with me and inform and show me aspects of the profession first hand. The shortage forecast is said to be so severe, that IAEA has provided a training program manual free to the public as a framework for new entrants to the profession.

... I can make more as a Biomedical engineer as I would as a ROMP and with far less training.

Interesting point. A biomedical engineer is a more versatile job, why consider medical physics? Why start a program of study for medical physics as you said earlier? Have you changed your mind?

 

[Clancy Brown]

Cool, thanks for the correction Berkeman.

Interesting point. A biomedical engineer is a more versatile job, why consider medical physics? Why start a program of study for medical physics as you said earlier? Have you changed your mind?

I wanted to study Science/Engineering degree, my local campus only offers Health Sciences, where the fun stuff ie Physics (Quantum computers, Photonics) is offered at the University's other campus.

I stumbled across Medical Physics, as it was advertised at the same location as a Biomedical Engineering vacancy. Intrigued I researched and found that it combined my interests of physics, engineering and patient care all in one little profession.

Plus I want an electron tree and one can not have too many options.

 

[AtomicPile]

I stumbled across Medical Physics, as it was advertised at the same location as a Biomedical Engineering vacancy. Intrigued I researched and found that it combined my interests of physics, engineering and patient care all in one little profession.

Do your research. Long term unemployment because your chosen profession is not desired is not a lot of fun.

Plus I want an electron tree and one can not have too many options.

Use your favorite search engine to find a lichtenberg sculpture/lichtenberg figures.

 

[rakhaa]

Hi everyone,

I urgently need to hear your thoughts on a career path I am considering. I am considering to return to school for a medical physics degree, starting with a Master's, finishing the coursework, and continue to directly work on my PhD project - so at least 4 years (followed by residency or postdoc). Here is my background:

-Bachelor's of engineering in Engineering Physics
-Master's of engineering in Biomedical Engineering (thesis on nanoparticles for biomed applications)
-Work experience in finance and management consulting

I basically completed an M. Eng. in BME and then went to work for a year and a half. I was a good student.

I want to return to science and am looking for PhD programs. Of course continuing in BME or some project related to nanotech is a natural option and I know many profs with whom I could work. But to do what afterwards? BME being so large and the nanotech side so new without an established industry.

I have the impression that MedPhys - In addition to being highly compatible with my educational background and areas of interest - is a more established field, with less uncertainty than BME or Physics: You are board accredited, you must graduate from CAMPEP institutions, you know pretty much where you will work, you are less subjected to economic cycles, it's a specific area with a limited number of specialists, my background in engineering will open me the doors of industry if needed, the salary is decent and stable (unemployment is rare) ... in other words it seems to be a safe discipline ... and I find it very interesting (in fact I hesitated between MedPhys and BME before my master's).

My questions, thoughts, and concerns:
-Is my perception right?
-Is it worth another 4-5 years (minimum) with at least 8 months of heavy coursework? does the security and certainty I will find after the graduate degree compensate for the work experience I will not get meantime.
-A PhD in Biomed would not have the coursework that MedPhys has.
-If I'm putting all this effort in a terminal degree, I want to be sure that I can breath afterward: Get a decent job (interest, hours, salary, etc) and not risk losing it every time the stock market goes down or when jobs are outsourced (or restructured) to a cheap labor country.
-I can work pretty much anywhere in the world: wherever there is a strong hospital.
-I can also do other things through a MedPhys degree: teach, industry, etc.

I'm strongly leaning towards doing it because I consider it meaningful work ... but I don't want to graduate and find out there are no jobs or that the latter are low paying, and that I was just an idealist, disconnected from reality!

Thank you for your time
Rakhaa.

 

[Choppy]

I have the impression that MedPhys - In addition to being highly compatible with my educational background and areas of interest - is a more established field, with less uncertainty than BME or Physics: You are board accredited, you must graduate from CAMPEP institutions, you know pretty much where you will work, you are less subjected to economic cycles, it's a specific area with a limited number of specialists, my background in engineering will open me the doors of industry if needed, the salary is decent and stable (unemployment is rare) ... in other words it seems to be a safe discipline ... and I find it very interesting (in fact I hesitated between MedPhys and BME before my master's).

My questions, thoughts, and concerns:
-Is my perception right?

More or less, but there are some points that perhaps require clarification. Medical physics isn't necessarily a meal ticket. Medical physics is a profession in the healthcare field and as such it is relatively insulated from economic swings compared to other industries. That does not mean that it is completely insulated. If you read back a few posts, you can see the discussion a few posters and I have been having about the job market for medical physicists over the coming years. Right now there's a lag in hiring due the slow economy. In my opinion though, this is a good time to get into the field as over the coming decade we're likely to see a significant increase in demand for the profession.

-Is it worth another 4-5 years (minimum) with at least 8 months of heavy coursework? does the security and certainty I will find after the graduate degree compensate for the work experience I will not get meantime.

That's a tough question. The PhD will be hard work and you won't earn a lot of money while doing it. And there are no guarantees. For me it turned out to be completely worth it, though.

-If I'm putting all this effort in a terminal degree, I want to be sure that I can breath afterward: Get a decent job (interest, hours, salary, etc) and not risk losing it every time the stock market goes down or when jobs are outsourced (or restructured) to a cheap labor country.

As I said, there are no guarantees. I don't see too many physicists losing their jobs as a result of the economic downturn, although in all fairness there are rare cases where hospitals have laid people off. The degree and certification aren't going to do the work for you. The biggest factors that medical physicists have keeping us in demand are the rising cancer rates due to the aging population.

-I can work pretty much anywhere in the world: wherever there is a strong hospital.

It's not exactly like you can pick a spot on a map and say I want to go here. What typically happens when you graduate from a medical physics program is that you will start networking to find a residency or post-doctoral program. Then you go where you get in. Sometimes those jobs aren't in optimal locations and they require moving across the counrty. And if you're like me and prefer living in smaller rural areas, your options can be limited. You may want to talk this over if there's a significant other in your life.

-I can also do other things through a MedPhys degree: teach, industry, etc.

Yes. In fact it's not uncommon for some students to embark on entreprenurial ventures based on their projects. Some of those ones do quite well.

Hope this helps.

 

[rakhaa]

Thanks for your answers and advice Choppy,

I think that if I pursue a PhD in nanotechnology, BME, or NeuroEngineering (which are also very interesting), chances are there will be less coursework and therefore it may be shorter. The problem is that there is a higher risk of finishing school and not getting a good job than if I graduate from MedPhys. There are no established industries in those fields and although you will probably find a job, the latter will not be very well paying and subjected to economic swings ... at least more so than in the case of MedPhys (which is not recession proof either from what you've told me).

The only problem is that after 4 years of engineering, 3 years of master's with intense research (yes the average duration in our BME department is 2.8 years) I still have to foresee about 5 years. Also, the idea that my master's may have been in vain and that I'll be starting at the same level a bachelor holder would, is a little frustrating!

I'd like to think that with my BME background, I will be able to do interesting and multidisciplinary research and that MedPhys can really be fused with BME in some respects, especially through nanotech and medical imaging. Do you see interesting emerging research trends in the discipline? Are there indicators that the field will witness significant breakthroughs or novelties in the coming decade (requiring a more multidisciplinary approach)?

Do you have approximate numbers for salaries (Master and PhD) for beginners as well as in mid career? I suppose residents don't make much (50k max) but that's ok. I've heard it's a well paying field, at least relative to engineering.

I am considering the McGill program as well as Duke, which seems to emphasize "frontier science" i.e. research in emerging areas.

Thank you again,
Rakhaa.

 

[Choppy]

Thanks for your answers and advice Choppy,

The only problem is that after 4 years of engineering, 3 years of master's with intense research (yes the average duration in our BME department is 2.8 years) I still have to foresee about 5 years. Also, the idea that my master's may have been in vain and that I'll be starting at the same level a bachelor holder would, is a little frustrating!

I don't think those years will have been a waste of time. However, changing to a different field will require a larger time investment. The thing is, those 5 years are going to pass anyway. Where do you want to be when they're over?

I'd like to think that with my BME background, I will be able to do interesting and multidisciplinary research and that MedPhys can really be fused with BME in some respects, especially through nanotech and medical imaging. Do you see interesting emerging research trends in the discipline? Are there indicators that the field will witness significant breakthroughs or novelties in the coming decade (requiring a more multidisciplinary approach)?

Absolutely. MRI development, for example, is one branch of BME that comes together with medical physics. MRI as both a diagnostic and treatment planning modality has a tremendous future, in my opinion. What I would recommend is that you speak to some of the professors at the institutions you're considering applying to about potential projects and how your specific background will compliment them.

Do you have approximate numbers for salaries (Master and PhD) for beginners as well as in mid career? I suppose residents don't make much (50k max) but that's ok. I've heard it's a well paying field, at least relative to engineering.

The best numbers that I'm aware of are in the AAPM annual salary survey. This is available to anyone with a student membership (I don't remember exact costs, but its in the ballpark of $25).

 

[HungryChemist]

I found some interesting blog and felt like sharing it here. Please, read the user comments to peak inside of the true stories of medical physics job market.

http://healthcareers.about.com/b/2009/07/22/medical-physicists-careers.htm

Medical Physics job market is saturated. I know too many campep phd graduates struggling to land on a job after a year of their graduation. My prediction is that it's only going to get worse.

Most recent graduates are having trouble finding a job, if you're going after maseter's degree in medical physics, expect the worst. Because most open positions require ABR certificate, and for this reason recent graduates are forced to apply for residency position and the competition for residency spots are getting fierce. So if you're master student, you would have to compete against phd students and if you look up profiles of current residents in place like stanford/ucsd/mdacc/mgh/ucsf/uwm/etc...there are no masters. Then why the heck is campep accredited institution is big on admitting master student?

Also, I did some back of the envelope calculation too (like Choppy did). There are about 25 campep grad schools, so assuming each school accepts about 10 students per year (they do more, but to be safe, let's say 10) that means there are about 250 students graduating. There are only about 30 residency programs and most programs accepts two residents per year. After 2014 (year in which residency must be required to be board certified), this means that 250 students will compete for 60 or so spots. Competition for residency now is much higher due to non-campep applicants but even if they select only campep applicants, the competition is still fierce. One might argue, not everyone is going to apply for residency. Let me say it again, there's no job opportunity unless you have ABR certificate, and to have clinical experience for you to take ABR test, your only option is residency, so there will be elimination process, everyone will bleed for residency spots.

Of course, I can't say my personal experience born out of a few acquaintance of my current and former student represents the whole community. But calling 70 different position to hear 'No we're not hiring' got to be something. I will bet that It WILL get worse.

 

[Mcfly11]

Also, I did some back of the envelope calculation too (like Choppy did). There are about 25 campep grad schools, so assuming each school accepts about 10 students per year (they do more, but to be safe, let's say 10) that means there are about 250 students graduating. There are only about 30 residency programs and most programs accepts two residents per year. After 2014 (year in which residency must be required to be board certified), this means that 250 students will compete for 60 or so spots.
.

I may be wrong, but I think you are overestimating the number of students graduating from CAMPEP programs who are competing for residences on a yearly basis. I think it is generally well known that it'll be considerably tougher to get a good job in the field nowadays with only an MSc, and that PhD's are generally necessary for residencies. Of the 25 CAMPEP programs, I believe 7 of them only offer MSc degrees, so there are only about 18 PhD granting institutions in North America. Of these 18, 7 are located in Canada, and I don't think a single one of them accepts 10 students per year. According to their respective websites, McGill only has 5 PhD students, U of Alberta has 12 PhD students, U of Calgary has 6, and Carleton has 15 to name a few. This means each school only gives out a couple of PhD's per year, if any.

I realize enrollments in the States are generally larger than Canadian schools, but my point is that only 11 of them grant PhD's. I doubt there are much more than 100 PhD's given out per year by those 11 programs. Also, a percentage of those may pursue non-clinical jobs that don't require ABR certification etc. This is a roundabout way of saying that I don't think there are anywhere close to 250 qualified applicants with PhD's competing for residencies each year. I'm by no means an expert in this matter though, so perhaps someone who knows better than I (Choppy?) can correct me if I'm way off the mark on this one.

Of course, you also considered those with MSc degrees, while I'm considering only those with PhD's, because I think it is becoming more and more of a fact that PhD's are necessary to become a medical physicist. I've been wondering if the shortage of medical physics jobs people have been discussing actually exists, or whether it only exists for those people with MSc degrees and no residency. Are there many people who have taken the recommended path of CAMPEP PhD followed by CAMPEP residency who are unable to find jobs? I don't know the answer to that question, but I'd be quite interested to find out.

 

[qball]

I may be wrong, but I think you are overestimating the number of students graduating from CAMPEP programs who are competing for residences on a yearly basis. I think it is generally well known that it'll be considerably tougher to get a good job in the field nowadays with only an MSc, and that PhD's are generally necessary for residencies. Of the 25 CAMPEP programs, I believe 7 of them only offer MSc degrees, so there are only about 18 PhD granting institutions in North America. Of these 18, 7 are located in Canada, and I don't think a single one of them accepts 10 students per year. According to their respective websites, McGill only has 5 PhD students, U of Alberta has 12 PhD students, U of Calgary has 6, and Carleton has 15 to name a few. This means each school only gives out a couple of Ph.D's per year, if any.

I don't know what enrollments are like in the States, but even if they're much larger than Canada's, I doubt there are much more than 100 PhD's given out per year by those 11 programs. Also, a percentage of those may pursue non-clinical jobs that don't require ABR certification etc. This is a roundabout way of saying that I don't think there are anywhere close to 250 qualified applicants with PhD's competing for residencies each year. I'm by no means an expert in this matter though, so perhaps someone who knows better than I (Choppy?) can correct me if I'm way off the mark on this one.

You're forgetting that people from other fields also compete for medical physics residencies. In fact, all of the medical physics residents I have met over the last few years have had Ph.d.'s but have not come from medical physics backgrounds.

 

[Mcfly11]

You're forgetting that people from other fields also compete for medical physics residencies. In fact, all of the medical physics residents I have met over the last few years have had Ph.d.'s but have not come from medical physics backgrounds.

That may be true, but would you not agree that if you hold a medical physics PhD, you have a significant advantage over all of the people applying for residencies without one? Most of the advertisements for residences I've seen state that they give preference to people with medical physics degrees.

Anyway, I think my point is still valid. Perhaps there is a large volume of people applying, but still a small volume of well qualified candidates. If you have a medical physics PhD, and decent qualifications (ie publications, good grades etc) then you have a pretty decent shot at getting a residency. Who cares if 1000 people are applying for the job, if you're more qualified than them.

Again, I'm not an expert in this, so I welcome feedback on these opinions.

 

[Choppy]

Where I think HungryChemist has a point is in the fact that the number of accredited residencies in north america is currently too small to produce the number of qualified medical physicists needed to satisfy the demand over the coming decade. Therein, you have a shortage of qualified medical physicists.

An interesting artile from Physics Today (May 2009) was posted up on a blog, that discusses this:
http://www.mdphysics.com/new-abr-certification-rule/

 

[qball]

That may be true, but would you not agree that if you hold a medical physics PhD, you have a significant advantage over all of the people applying for residencies without one? Most of the advertisements for residences I've seen state that they give preference to people with medical physics degrees.

Anyway, I think my point is still valid. Perhaps there is a large volume of people applying, but still a small volume of well qualified candidates. If you have a medical physics PhD, and decent qualifications (ie publications, good grades etc) then you have a pretty decent shot at getting a residency. Who cares if 1000 people are applying for the job, if you're more qualified than them.

Again, I'm not an expert in this, so I welcome feedback on these opinions.

I have not seen job listings claiming to give preference to people with medical physics Ph.d.s. What I have seen are listings that give preference to ABR certified candidates who have completed CAMPEP residencies. You do not need a medical physics Ph.d. to have either of those qualifications. This is the reason for the 2012/2014 initiative: it's going to make it harder for people outside medical physics to get jobs in the field.

 

[Mcfly11]

I have not seen job listings claiming to give preference to people with medical physics Ph.d.s. What I have seen are listings that give preference to ABR certified candidates who have completed CAMPEP residencies. You do not need a medical physics Ph.d. to have either of those qualifications. This is the reason for the 2012/2014 initiative: it's going to make it harder for people outside medical physics to get jobs in the field.

You're kind of reinforcing my point here, althought I was speaking specifically about entry into residencies, not any job. I'm saying that it is considerably easier to get into a CAMPEP residency if you have a CAMPEP PhD. As you said, it's not necessary to get a PhD to get into a residency, but I'm sure you'll agree that someone with a CAMPEP PhD has a significantly better shot of landing a residency position than someone with another degree nowadays. As you said, many jobs prefer applicants to have completed a CAMPEP residency, so I think it is true that a PhD improves your job prospects, if only in this roundabout way. Although I have to disagree with you on one point...I've seen several advertisements that state they prefer a PhD to an MSc.

People here often discuss how difficult it is to get a job in medical physics. The point that I'm trying to make is that although it may be difficult for some people (ie people from other physics-related fields) to find jobs, I think a person who follows the recommended route of CAMPEP PhD followed by CAMPEP residency will find a job reasonably easily. Perhaps my own experience is limited, but I haven't seen any people with these qualifications complain about the lack of jobs.

 

[qball]

You're kind of reinforcing my point here, althought I was speaking specifically about entry into residencies, not any job. I'm saying that it is considerably easier to get into a CAMPEP residency if you have a CAMPEP PhD. As you said, it's not necessary to get a PhD to get into a residency, but I'm sure you'll agree that someone with a CAMPEP PhD has a significantly better shot of landing a residency position than someone with another degree nowadays. As you said, many jobs prefer applicants to have completed a CAMPEP residency, so I think it is true that a PhD improves your job prospects, if only in this roundabout way. Although I have to disagree with you on one point...I've seen several advertisements that state they prefer a PhD to an MSc.

People here often discuss how difficult it is to get a job in medical physics. The point that I'm trying to make is that although it may be difficult for some people (ie people from other physics-related fields) to find jobs, I think a person who follows the recommended route of CAMPEP PhD followed by CAMPEP residency will find a job reasonably easily. Perhaps my own experience is limited, but I haven't seen any people with these qualifications complain about the lack of jobs.

Although my experience is somewhat limited, as I've said all the residents I've ever met have had Physics Ph.d.'s and not medical physics Ph.d.'s. Think about what this means. Say not all medical physics graduates decide to compete for residences; say it's only half. There are a lot more physics graduates every year then medical physics, but let's suppose that only a few percent of them apply for residency positions. If spots in residencies are filled by equal number of physics graduates and medical physics graduates that means you have an overall lower chance of getting accepted into a residency vs. if you were a student of pure physics.

While I don't know what the true numbers are like I don't think this is too far off.

 

[Mcfly11]

Although my experience is somewhat limited, as I've said all the residents I've ever met have had Physics Ph.d.'s and not medical physics Ph.d.'s. Think about what this means. Say not all medical physics graduates decide to compete for residences; say it's only half. There are a lot more physics graduates every year then medical physics, but let's suppose that only a few percent of them apply for residency positions. If spots in residencies are filled by equal number of physics graduates and medical physics graduates that means you have an overall lower chance of getting accepted into a residency vs. if you were a student of pure physics.

While I don't know what the true numbers are like I don't think this is too far off.

I think our opinions are different because we both have had vastly different personal experiences. I haven't met a resident who didn't have a medical physics PhD, and you haven't met one who did have one. I guess we're at opposite ends of the spectrum haha. I admit my sample size isn't very large, I think I've only met 8 or 9.

Anyways, I still believe that on average a person with a medical physics PhD has a significantly better chance at landing a residency than someone with a pure physics PhD. I think if two candidates are otherwise equal (ie research quality, academic records etc) but one has a degree in med phys, and one in pure physics, then 9 times out of 10 the position would be given to the person with experience in medical physics. Either way, I agree that obtaining a residency is way more difficult than it probably should be.

I'd love to see statistics from a few residency programs regarding how many applications they receive each year, and what the spread of degrees (ie med phys vs phys, MSc vs PhD) is. Would also be interesting to see which degrees have the highest acceptance rate. I've heard that they get ~100 applications for 1 or 2 openings quite often, but I'm curious as to how many of those 100 are very well qualified.

 

[qball]

I think our opinions are different because we both have had vastly different personal experiences. I haven't met a resident who didn't have a medical physics PhD, and you haven't met one who did have one. I guess we're at opposite ends of the spectrum haha. I admit my sample size isn't very large, I think I've only met 8 or 9.

Anyways, I still believe that on average a person with a medical physics PhD has a significantly better chance at landing a residency than someone with a pure physics PhD. I think if two candidates are otherwise equal (ie research quality, academic records etc) but one has a degree in med phys, and one in pure physics, then 9 times out of 10 the position would be given to the person with experience in medical physics. Either way, I agree that obtaining a residency is way more difficult than it probably should be.

I'd love to see statistics from a few residency programs regarding how many applications they receive each year, and what the spread of degrees (ie med phys vs phys, MSc vs PhD) is. Would also be interesting to see which degrees have the highest acceptance rate. I've heard that they get ~100 applications for 1 or 2 openings quite often, but I'm curious as to how many of those 100 are very well qualified.

Programs must have strange definitions of "well-qualified" then. I would think anyone who completed a Ph.d. in medical physics would be many times more qualified than someone who did not. However, the fact that anyone with a non-medical physics degree can get into a residency says that this isn't so. You have to assume at least one person with a medical physics background is applying for any given medical physics residency slot. If the residencies still decide that a person with a physics Ph.d. is still more qualified than you are, what does that say about your degree? Furthermore, the residency program I'm familiar with not only has been accepting a large number a pure physics graduates, it also requires them to take medical physics courses for the duration of their residency. So instead of accepting medical physics graduates who already have the requisite training they accept graduates from other disciplines and train them. What the hell is the point of the medical physics degree?

Think about it this way. Say there was an opening for a plumbing job. Say 100 people apply and of those 100 people 1 has a degree in plumbing and 99 come from other fields like carpentry, electrical work, etc. Presumably that person with knowledge of plumbing is a superior applicant compared to the others. This should be a no-brainer, right? But suppose that company chooses to hire a carpenter for the job, then train him to be a plumber. Suppose this happens repeatedly. What does that say about having a degree in plumbing?

 

[Mcfly11]

Programs must have strange definitions of "well-qualified" then. I would think anyone who completed a Ph.d. in medical physics would be many times more qualified than someone who did not. However, the fact that anyone with a non-medical physics degree can get into a residency says that this isn't so. You have to assume at least one person with a medical physics background is applying for any given medical physics residency slot. If the residencies still decide that a person with a physics Ph.d. is still more qualified than you are, what does that say about your degree? Furthermore, the residency program I'm familiar with not only has been accepting a large number a pure physics graduates, it also requires them to take medical physics courses for the duration of their residency. So instead of accepting medical physics graduates who already have the requisite training they accept graduates from other disciplines and train them. What the hell is the point of the medical physics degree?

Yeah, I agree with a lot of what you're saying. It seems as though the definition of 'well-qualified' isn't remotely uniform across North America. The programs I'm familiar with are basically the opposite of the ones you're familiar with.

I should mention, if I haven't already, that I'm Canadian, so I'm really only familiar with the Canadian programs that are available, and only to a limited extent. From looking at their websites though, it seems like its generally true in Canada that a medical physics degree puts you at a significant advantage in terms of getting a residency.

I assumed that it was a similar situation in the States, since CAMPEP is a North America-wide body, but apparently I may be wrong in that assumption. The situation you've described seems like a bit of a mess to me, and I can definitely understand your frustration with it. On the bright side, maybe that program you're familiar with is the exception, rather than the rule. That's why I'd love to see stats from a few different residencies.

 

[Choppy]

There are a few point's I'd like to address in the recent discussion in this thread.

First of all, for a student who wants to get into medical physics, the ideal path is to obtain a PhD from an accredited program. I haven't known personally any PhD graduates from accredited programs who've had trouble getting a medical physics position/residency after graduation. I have seen some MSc graduates have a more difficult time finding positions, but for the most part this has meant that they didn't get their first choice of city to live in. [We're looking at a sample size of ~ 50 over the past seven years.]

Second, as with any career, it's not a case of jumping through the right hoops to get the prize. Obtaining a PhD from an accredited program is not going to guarantee you a residency. Getting into an accredited residency is not going to guarantee that you pass your certification exams. Passing your certification exams is not going to guarantee you a perfect job for the rest of your life.

Third, residencies can come in different forms. Some institutions will, for example, offer a residency combined with what is essentially a post-doctoral research position. And if the post-doc position requires a specific skill set (say for example a background in compuational physics or image processing), candidates from areas outside of a standard medical physics background may be considered and even chosen over those from accredited programs. It is worth noting that this situation will not qualify the candidate for certification under the new rules.

Fourth: some of my personal insight into the hiring process for residencies. Typically, by the closing date the institution will have received a large number (say 50-100) CVs. The vast majority of these are not qualified for the position in that they have no medical physics (or at least medical physics-related) background at all. A short list of qualified candidates is then made. Now, most institutions that offer residencies are also affiliated with a graduate program, so from what I've seen, the highest ranked candidates will often come from the school's own program because there's a lot less risk in hiring someone you've known for the past four years. PhDs are preferred over MScs. Candidates from accredited programs are preferred over non-accredited ones.

Fifth, with respect to the ABR and CCPM requiring candidates from accredited programs, you have to remember that these organizations are tasked with certifying competance in the field. The reason why candidates' backgrounds are considered is because it is recognized that performance on a single exam alone cannot guarantee competance. It is accepted that you need experience in the field. But even with the current experience requirements, that pass rates are very low (in the 50 - 60% range for first time oral takers). Accreditation cerifies that a candidate has a broad enough experience base to demonstrate competance in the field. It also helps protect the residents so that they don't end up doing 2 years of basic QA work without any real training.

 

[ksubbara]

I am a new member of this forum. I graduated with a Ph.D in condensed matter physics 13 years ago. I have been working in the software industry ever since. I am looking to start a new career in Medical Physics. What are my options ? Where and how do I start ? Any advice will be appreciated.

 

[Choppy]

I am a new member of this forum. I graduated with a Ph.D in condensed matter physics 13 years ago. I have been working in the software industry ever since. I am looking to start a new career in Medical Physics. What are my options ? Where and how do I start ? Any advice will be appreciated.

While some people with PhDs in other branches of phyiscs are able to find junior physicist or resident positions, the competition for these jobs is fierce and you have to compete with people that are coming from accredited graduate programs in medical physics. Some institutions will offer post-doctoral positions that transition into residencies and will sometimes accept candidates who do not have a medical physics background.

The most common path I've seen for people in your position though, is to go through an accredited master's program and then move into a residency.

 

[rakhaa]

Hi everyone,

Are there any Medical Physicists here who work in R&D, as in scientists or engineers in the design and development of new MedPhys related products. I know there are some big companies in this industry: Elekta, Siemens, Varian, etc.

What is their perception of a Medical Physicist, compared to that of an engineer or just general physicist? Are medical physicist employed in these organizations?

Rakhaa.

 

[Choppy]

Hi Rakhaa,

Companies like these do employ medical physicists. Medical physicists are involved in both research and development and in customer support - once a company develops a product physicists are then needed to explain it to other physicists and to trouble shoot. Such companies will employ physicists and engineers with backgrounds in other areas as well and this usually depends on the particular products they are attempting to develop and the particular specialties needed.