Mouse won't click to open files

[meBigGuy]

It does sound like something is affecting Explorer (the file explorer window).

20% CPU is very high when you are not doing anything. Something is not right. Right now my CPU is at 1% peaking to 5% and I'm running a bunch of small background things (a few widgets, a sensor monitoring program, and typing this).
Open the Task Manager. In the task manager there are several tabs.
1. Click Performance. it shows CPU% and Memory Usage (Memory usage is not in % in my machine)
Verify it shows 20% CPU usage and tell me what it says for Physical Memory (Total, Cached, Available, and Free)
You can click Resource Monitor at the bottom, and get more detailed views of what is happening in your machine, but we will do that later
2. Click the Processes Tab
Click the CPU column such that maximum CPU usage is at the top. What are the processes consuming CPU, and how much.
(look at this when there is not a problem, when you open a file, and when there is a problem)
(for me right now it is Idle 99% and every once in a while firefox hits 2%, perfmon hits 1%. If I move my mouse between windows, taskmgr hits 2%)
Click on the memory column and see what programs are consuming the most memory. For me, for example, it is firefox, svhost, sidebar, explorer, svhost(net) and so on.
3. Since you have an SSD, maybe there is massive SSD activity and you can't see it (is there a light for SSD accesses?)
IF you go back to the Performance Tab and click "Resource Monitor" you can click Disk and see what is accessing the disk(s) if anything.
(I use resource monitor whenever my disk starts doing strange things and I don't know why. It's usually my Anti-virus, or something auto-updating or some program optimizing its database)

Did you try shutting down Norton's real time protection (or better yet, uninstall it as an experiment)? Norton could easily be the cause of this. Try reading the Norton event logs and see if there is anything strange there.

 

[yungman]

Thanks Mebigguy.

I don't remember exactly how many % of CPU exactly, it was low. I just check while it's working, it was something like 10% or so, I closed Chrome, it went down to 1% or less. I still have IE and Firefox open. Seem like Chrome takes more CPU.

I open both the performance and resource monitor. I click the CPU in the resource monitor to look at the one that use the most, it switches around. When I re-open Chrome again, it does not seems to take up as much CPU as before. CPU still stay at about 1% to 2%. BUT the memory usage is about 3G all the time. I click "Memory" in the "process" and it show Firefox uses 3.5M, IE 1M and Chrome close to 1M as the top 3 in memory usage.

There is no light for the SSD.

I did not try turning off the Norton, I'll try it next time if I can open it when it fails.

Are you convince that this is pure software problem? It starting to have problem only like two weeks ago, never have any problem before. It's a fast computer.

I'll keep the two monitors open for the next time when it fails.

Thanks

 

[meBigGuy]

I am convinced it is a software issue. Related to swapping, the SSD, Norton, or something like that. Or some process we don't know about yet. Basically a resources issue.
Of course, everyone always suspects malware. That's always possible. I ALWAYS run malwarebytes as soon as my machine does anything strange.
There usually isn't anything there, but its a habit of mine. Have you run malwarebytes?

(well, it could be an SSD failure of some sort, but it's not a typical failure)

We need to know the CPU and Memory numbers when it is failing.

I think your browser memory numbers are way low. The memory is listed in KBytes, so 284,000 is 284MBytes. My firefox is at 250MB. If I just start chrome and load google it runs 4 processes at about 15 to 30MB each (nearly 100MB total)

It could be related to swapping and the SSD.

The data does not compute yet.

I just fixed a problem with my computer. It randomly froze three times with no indications. I opened it up, reseated all the connectors (except the cpu and ram) and blew all the dust out of the power supply (turns out there was a lot in there) and the video card. I suspect the video card or power supply was having issues. (or maybe the video card). Just sayin ...

 

[yungman]

I am convinced it is a software issue. Related to swapping, the SSD, Norton, or something like that. Or some process we don't know about yet. Basically a resources issue.
Of course, everyone always suspects malware. That's always possible. I ALWAYS run malwarebytes as soon as my machine does anything strange.
There usually isn't anything there, but its a habit of mine. Have you run malwarebytes?

(well, it could be an SSD failure of some sort, but it's not a typical failure)

We need to know the CPU and Memory numbers when it is failing.

I think your browser memory numbers are way low. The memory is listed in KBytes, so 284,000 is 284MBytes. My firefox is at 250MB. If I just start chrome and load google it runs 4 processes at about 15 to 30MB each (nearly 100MB total)

It could be related to swapping and the SSD.

The data does not compute yet.

I just fixed a problem with my computer. It randomly froze three times with no indications. I opened it up, reseated all the connectors (except the cpu and ram) and blew all the dust out of the power supply (turns out there was a lot in there) and the video card. I suspect the video card or power supply was having issues. (or maybe the video card). Just sayin ...

Thanks, I don't understand the meaning of swapping.

I have the browser opened before, it was just sitting idle all these time. Maybe if I do something, it would be higher. I mainly have different email, one for my home, one for work that I kept open at the time.

I doubted it's virus. I lead a very boring life, I really don't surf around much. My main places I visit is Diyaudio, Digikey, email. Occasionally look up some inform on the cast of tv series and some technical stuff. I do post political comments on the Yahoo news, but that's pretty much posting on the articles. That's it, no porn, no nothing. I don't think there is much virus to catch. The computer is super fast, I pulled out the old 3rd gen I-5 laptop with Win8 because of problem of this one, it is so much slower. There is no symptom telling me to suspect virus infection.

I scan with Norton full scan before, nothing came up. I can download MS security essential to scan it again. If you have another one better, please give me a link. I really don't want to go on web and find one because I don't trust them.

Thanks

 

[meBigGuy]

Scan with malwarebytes free version. Malwarebytes scans for different things than Norton. It might not find anything (but it almost always does when first used), but it is a very handy program to have. https://www.malwarebytes.org/mwb-download/ Read carefully as you install. I don't think they will try to load extra stuff (not like them to load extra stuff) but be alert anytime you install anything. Their software is trustworthy. Just download and then execute. It will download their database and do a scan. It doesn't leave anything running in the background when it finishes. It only runs when you ask it to.
Ignore anything regarding upgrading to their pro version, for now. You don't need it
If it finds anything, you can choose to let it take care of it, or just ignore it for now and report back here.

Nothing you report makes me think malware, but Malwarebytes is just good, uncontroversial, computer maintenance. BTW, you can get malware just sitting on a site with ad servers. You don't have to click on anything. I had a computer rooted by a hacked ad server, through a popular news site, while no one was at the computer.

again, regarding the symptoms:
1. Can you just open a bunch of files and get it to occur reliably?
2. Need to know CPU and Memory usage when the problem occurs
3. Turn off Norton when the problem occurs. Better yet, if you can make the problem occur, turn off Norton and then try to make it happen.

Regarding swapping:
Your system has a certain amount of physical memory, and a disk file call the paging file or virtual memory (some call it a swap file) where it can store data that isn't being currently used by the running programs. When you run out of memory it will swap some older program data to the disk to make more room.

You should check how much swap memory you have.
Control Panel -> System -> Advanced System Settings -> Advanced Tab
under performance, press Settings -> then Advanced
Under virtual memory it will have a number. Mine is 6.135GB (or 6135MB)
You can click on Change and set it to let the system decide if it isn't already set that way. Or increase it, or whatever. Don't decrease it.

 

[yungman]

It failed again.

I looked the CPU and memory, CPU is 7 to 8%, memory is 3.75G. In the resource monitor, the memory usage from highest down is Firefox, IE, Explorer and Chrome.

I closed all the programs except the stuck folder, CPU down to 1% and memory down to 2.77G. It still does not work, I still cannot open program or file.

I disable all Norton task, did not help.

I finally went to task manage as end the folder that is stuck. For a few seconds, I can click and open programs. But when I try to open the original stuck folder, it will not open. I tried opening the program that I can open a few seconds ago, it failed. this time, the stuck folder does not even show up in the task manager, so I cannot try to close it anymore. The only program running is Firefox, all other tasks are closed.

That's it, I need to restart the computer now.

 

[meBigGuy]

Wow. That sort of points to the file system. As a random thought, is it possible you have cooling problems? Blocked fan when you use the laptop? Dirt accumulation? Can you feel the airflow from the fan running?

What is the history of the machine? Has it always been SSD based? Is it just one SSD? No hard drive?

1. Check the virtual memory as I described earlier
2. Update the SSD drivers
3. Run MalwareBytes (really, this is a safe smart thing to do)

 

[yungman]

Wow. That sort of points to the file system. As a random thought, is it possible you have cooling problems? Blocked fan when you use the laptop? Dirt accumulation? Can you feel the airflow from the fan running?

What is the history of the machine? Has it always been SSD based? Is it just one SSD? No hard drive?

1. Check the virtual memory as I described earlier
2. Update the SSD drivers
3. Run MalwareBytes (really, this is a safe smart thing to do)

It is Lenovo Thinkpad T440 20B7S1KJ00 i5-4300U Dual Core 1.9GHz with 2.9GHz Max Turbo 8GB DDR3L-1600 128GB SSD 14" HD 1366x768 Display 3-Cell + 3-Cell Battery Intel N-7260 Win 7 Pro 64bit. The laptop is only 4 to 5 months old, never have a problem until now. It comes with SSD drive, no hard drive.

The fan do not come on that often, I don't think dist and dirt is the problem as it's so new. Also, most of the time, it fail when I come back to use the computer after it sat idling, not really running anything. I feel around the casing, it is not warm.

BUT I lifted the back of the laptop up and use a small fan to blow the bottom and side so I have more air for the bottom and see whether it still fail.EDIT:

I just finished the malware scan you gave, it removed 14 potential malware.

I went to :Control Panel -> System and security-> System-> Advanced System Settings -> Advanced Tab
under performance, press Settings -> Advanced...The size of virtual memory is 7879MB. It is higher than yours, so I take it is ok.

I went on Control panel, device manager, Disk drive and choose Sam Sung SCSI drive. right click and choose update drivers. It went on web to look for update drivers and came back saying I have the latest driver already.Thanks

 

[yungman]

I also did the following

In the Device manager->system devices, I checked for updates for MS system management BIOS drivers and Virtual Drive Enumerator drivers. It came back as said it has the latest update already.

 

[meBigGuy]

Hopefully it was malware related, because I'm running out of ideas.

Is windows defender turned off? Sometimes two active antivirus programs can cause issues. Click on start and type defender in the text box at the bottom.
Then click on windows defender. It should give a message that it is turned off.

I guess the next thing I would do is uninstall Norton. If running without AV makes you nervous you can turn on windows defender. It's not very good, but ...

 

[yungman]

I have been using Norton many years without problem. My desktop upstairs has no problem what so ever, hard to imagine Norton is the cause of the problem.

Thanks

 

[meBigGuy]

I agree, but we are running out of things to try. Did you verify you are not running defender also <-- important step?

Regarding Norton, if you don't try something because of anecdotal data from a different situation you risk overlooking the cause. Norton could have been corrupted by a bad shutdown, for example. Or, an accidentally aborted update. I agree it's unlikely, but you probably thought finding 14 questionable issues with Malwarebytes was unlikely also.
Just saying.

I guess I would check that defender is off and wait for the issue to happen again. (has it happened since you ran malwarebytes?) At that point I would reboot, shut down Norton and try to make it happen again. Or uninstall Norton. Or reinstall Norton.

 

[yungman]

Yes, I did verify right away, the defender is not running. Should I uninstall Norton and reinstall again?

It has not fail since I ran the defender, I have something under the laptop at the back to lift the back up to create a gap between the counter and the bottom, I am using a small fan to blow under it. I am waiting for it to fail.

Ha ha, I am surprised the defender only found 14. I had scanned some old computers with other scans and came up a lot more! It almost seems like some of the malware scanner trying to scare people into buying the program.

Thanks

 

[Chronos]

reload your mouse driver

 

[yungman]

reload your mouse driver

How do I do it? I went in Control Panel and checked for update, it came back and said I have the latest driver already. I don't dare to uninstall it as I have to make sure I know how to install it back in.

I don't think is the mouse, I have no problem doing everything on web, problem only with trying to open folders and programs on the desktop.

Thanks

 

[Chronos]

Do a driver search for your brand of mouse If you have the current version, it will have no effect.

 

[meBigGuy]

It is obviously NOT the mouse driver. It has nothing to do with the mouse. The mouse works fine even when the file system is hung.
What makes you think it could be the mouse when explorer hangs, and deleting the explorer app unhangs it? Try coming up with something consistent with all the symptoms before suggesting random stuff.

When he opens files through explorer, the system eventually hangs. There are no high CPU usage processes, and no high memory usage processes when this happens. When the system is hung trying to open a file, the browser still runs fine. He virtual memory settings seem OK. A reboot gets the system back to normal.

He is running an SSD so it could be SSD driver related, but he checked the drivers and they are up to date.
(could be a corrupted SSD driver, but low likelihood)

The system seems to be running OK with respect to cooling, and many diagnostics have been run.

He is running Norton AV, and defender is not enabled. Norton could be corrupted (but low likelihood)

He ran malwarebytes and it found 14 "things", which he removed. It has not exhibited the issue since then (but it was not long ago)

Right now the best hope is that malwarebytes cleaned it up.

 

[meBigGuy]

Ha ha, I am surprised the defender only found 14. I had scanned some old computers with other scans and came up a lot more! It almost seems like some of the malware scanner trying to scare people into buying the program.

That may be true of some programs, but I don't think malwarebytes is in that category. The free version gets the job done, and it generally finds real junk. Do you think the programs it removed for you were good things to have on your computer? BTW, were any of the suspicious programs added around the time the issue began?

Don't do anything until it happens again. As I said:

wait for the issue to happen again. (has it happened since you ran malwarebytes?) At that point I would reboot, shut down Norton and try to make it happen again. Or uninstall Norton. Or reinstall Norton.

 

[Chronos]

Having nothing happen when you click on a folder gives me cause to suspect a driver or hardware problem. Try another mouse and see how it works [or doesnt]. I agree and doubt Norton is relevant to the issue. If its a wireless mouse a new battery might be in order.

 

[meBigGuy]

Yet the browser works fine (the mouse works fine in the browser). What leads you to this weird mouse conclusion? Explain how a mouse driver can cause an explorer window to hang? The mouse works great. The file open hangs. Do you understand that?

 

[yungman]

Yes, I don't think it's the mouse at all. I don't remember the date of the malware, the names did not sound familiar, more like the name of some gaming stuff, BUT I never play games on my computer. Hell, I never play games, it's a total waste of time to me. My video games are doing LTSpice circuit simulation, laying out pcb! I lead a very very boring life and love every bit of it.

So I should hold back in uninstall and reinstall Norton until the next time if fails. That, I have done before and not an issue.

 

[Borg]

I'm only mentioning this because you seem to have exhausted all of the other options. Have you tried looking at which Services are running on your machine and compare them with the other computer that is working OK? I review my running services from time to time and aggressively turn off services. This has led to occasional problems for me where I will get odd behavior while trying to access directory services. For example, whenever I use Firefox to save a file and try to create a new folder using the dialog, Firefox crashes and closes. I am pretty sure this is due to a service that I shut down but I haven't gotten around to figuring it out. I understand that you may not have shut down a service but it could have been done through an update or a program installation. Definitely use great care with modifying your services - you can really make a mess of your machine.

 

[Mark44]

Having nothing happen when you click on a folder gives me cause to suspect a driver or hardware problem. Try another mouse and see how it works [or doesnt]. I agree and doubt Norton is relevant to the issue. If its a wireless mouse a new battery might be in order.

Yet the browser works fine (the mouse works fine in the browser). What leads you to this weird mouse conclusion? Explain how a mouse driver can cause an explorer window to hang? The mouse works great. The file open hangs. Do you understand that?

A suggestion early on in this thread was that the file associations were broken. In Win7 (which is what I'm running), these can be checked by opening Control Panel, and then clicking Default Programs. Click Associate a file type or protocol with a program to see a list of all file types and the action that is associated with each. If there is some file type (such as .exe, .txt, .jpg, etc.) that has no action listed with it, clicking on a file of that type won't cause anything to happen.

 

[yungman]

Yet the browser works fine (the mouse works fine in the browser). What leads you to this weird mouse conclusion? Explain how a mouse driver can cause an explorer window to hang? The mouse works great. The file open hangs. Do you understand that?

Hi MeBigGuy
I was curious about what being quarantined by Malwarebytes, I went in and looked at the history. To my big surprised:

1) Most of them were from Mapsgalaxy.com. the names are Pup.Optional.MindSpark. Location in
mapsgalaxy.com\META-INF\manifest.mf
mapsgalaxy.com\chrome.manifest
mapsgalaxy.com\chrome\39ffxtbr.jar
r@www.mapsgalaxy.com\install_old.rdf
-99DE-4CBB-8211-683810C93B8B.sqlite
r@www.mapsgalaxy.com\install.rdf
rofiles\0z1y7dhd.default\MapsGalaxy_39
tbr@www.mapsgalaxy.com\bootstrap.js

2) One is from PrimoPDF which I use for a while with no problem
downloads\InternationalPrimoPDF.exe

I installed the Mapsgalaxy almost the same time as I started experiencing the problem. Maybe it is this malware that causes the problem. It still has not fail so far. I turned off the fan and let the bottom of the laptop sit back on the counter as originally was all the time.

I am going to wait if it fail again, then I am going to uninstall all the Mapsgalaxy stuff. do you know of a map and direction site that is reliable and clean?

You might hit the problem right on the nail.

Thanks

Thanks

 

[meBigGuy]

I'm only mentioning this because you seem to have exhausted all of the other options. Have you tried looking at which Services are running on your machine and compare them with the other computer that is working OK?

That makes a lot of sense and probably would identify the issue. The problem is interpreting the massive amount of data, and doing it in a way that doesn't jeopardize system stability. I find the sheer quantity of services and what they really do to be mind boggling. It is so easy to think "I don't need this" only to find 3 months later that something can't happen because you disabled it.

While it is not directly service related, my approach to this is to run HijackThis. I essentially set ignore on anything that looks like stock Microsoff, apple, google, etc. and any programs or services that I am positive that are OK (like skype, my AV, etc). Then I try to figure out what the rest of it means and whether something looks suspicious. Then, whenever something suspicious happens, I rerun it and see if there is anything new (it remembers all the ignores). I don't try to get a clean run, just a manageable report. Right now I have about 20 things left in the report after a scan (most of which I could ignore, but just don't) and maybe 50 in my ignore list. If something suspicious happens, it will stand out like a sore thumb.

HijackThis will tell you all the startup programs and services, and you can easily eliminate the ones you don't want. For example, mapsgalaxy probably had a startup setting and left something in memory on a permanent basis.

The problem with HijackThis is that it is very easy to eliminate something you shouldn't, so you need to research every thing you do before using it to "fix" something.

I have one other program that I run called WinPatrol. I actually bought the pro version. The pro version let's you click on a service or a process, or a startup program to access an online database that describes the service and suggests whether it is really needed. I love it. It tells you everything about your software environment. It also flags new startup programs, association changes, some registry changes, and other things that might be indicative of something awry. But, for some it is just too much information.

 

[yungman]

Sadly, still persists.

I checked CPU 4%, Mem 3.9G where Chrome uses 715M and Firefox 320M being highest.

I checked resource Monitor. The heaviest usage of "Disk" is System. CPU is Chrome and Firefox.

I use task manager to close the Window Explorer, it did close this time and everything go back to normal. I don't have to restart the computer.

I checked the usage again when everything is working, it's the same, CPU 4%, memory 3.9G. I don't think this is telling me anything.

I'll uninstall and reinstall Norton later after dinner.

 

[yungman]

I just think of something. I made sure the laptop was working before I went out. I came back an hour and half later and it got stuck this time. This means the laptop stuck by itself idling as no one is touching it.

Should I try closing all the browsers on this and see whether any of the browser has anything to do with it. I can use another laptop for browser...I am going to do it anyway. I am getting desperate.

 

[meBigGuy]

I wish I had more knowledge of SSD based systems and their file system failure symptoms. It is a different animal from a traditional hard disk due to the shuffling (usage leveling?) algorithms (or whatever they call them).

 

[meBigGuy]

I hate it when I can't resolve an issue.

One possibility is that you have installed an Explorer (not IE) addon, or shell extension.

Nirsoft has utilities to help.
http://www.nirsoft.net/utils/shexview.html
http://www.nirsoft.net/utils/what_is_hang.html

This are both worth playing with. what_is_hang looks particularly interesting.

I just loaded shellexview and ran it. Look at the non microsoft extensions (under options). I disabled SecuROM context and Java Helper just to see what would happen.

ANOTHER APPROACH:
type msconfg in the start menu and look at the startup programs. Disable stuff you think you can do without (and keep notes so you can go back and enable them)

 

[yungman]

I hate it when I can't resolve an issue.

One possibility is that you have installed an Explorer (not IE) addon, or shell extension.

Nirsoft has utilities to help.
http://www.nirsoft.net/utils/shexview.html
http://www.nirsoft.net/utils/what_is_hang.html

This are both worth playing with. what_is_hang looks particularly interesting.

I just loaded shellexview and ran it. Look at the non microsoft extensions (under options). I disabled SecuROM context and Java Helper just to see what would happen.

ANOTHER APPROACH:
type msconfg in the start menu and look at the startup programs. Disable stuff you think you can do without (and keep notes so you can go back and enable them)

Thanks for sticking with me.
I went into msconfig, I disabled Dolby Profile Selector, Back Monitor Application, Synaptics Pointing Device driver, Adobe Systems, Inc. Adobe Gamma Loader, Microsoft Office OneNote.

I restarted and the computer still works.

What is Nirsoft? I read a little about the shell. Am I suppose to download and run it?

I uninstalled Norton 360 as I am not going to go on line with that computer for now.

Thanks

 

[meBigGuy]

Hmmm ---- don't you need Synaptics Pointing Device driver? Does the touchpad still work?

Can you make this happen reliably by opening lots of files, or any particular files? Or is it pretty random?
I've been assuming you are double clicking on files to open them, not right-click->open
If it happens reliably, you can boot to safe mode and see if it happens there. That would tell us it is definitely caused by a driver that is being loaded.

Regarding Nirsoft. They have two utilities that might tell us something useful.
Shellexview let's you look at Explorer shell extensions and, as an experiment, disable ones that you might not need.
When you run this, click OPTIONS->ignore microsoft extentions, and look at what is left

what_is_hang might tell you exactly is hanging. <--- more interesting

When Explorer hangs, hopefully you can run "what_is_hang" and get a report of where it is hanging.

This could be anything, even your video drivers. It's really hard to tell. So what_is_hang might give us a clue.

 

[yungman]

Hmmm ---- don't you need Synaptics Pointing Device driver? Does the touchpad still work?

Can you make this happen reliably by opening lots of files, or any particular files? Or is it pretty random?
I've been assuming you are double clicking on files to open them, not right-click->open
If it happens reliably, you can boot to safe mode and see if it happens there. That would tell us it is definitely caused by a driver that is being loaded.

Regarding Nirsoft. They have two utilities that might tell us something useful.
Shellexview let's you look at Explorer shell extensions and, as an experiment, disable ones that you might not need.
When you run this, click OPTIONS->ignore microsoft extentions, and look at what is left

what_is_hang might tell you exactly is hanging. <--- more interesting

When Explorer hangs, hopefully you can run "what_is_hang" and get a report of where it is hanging.

This could be anything, even your video drivers. It's really hard to tell. So what_is_hang might give us a clue.

The touch pad is still working. Everything is working. It's been almost a day without failure. I just opened quite a few more folders and files. Yes, I double click the left mouse, not by right click and open.

Right now, I uninstalled Norton since yesterday, disable a lot of the programs on startup using msconfig as you suggeted. I only went on web twice. I am using the other laptop to go on internet. I am waiting for it to fail. My plan is to download the Norton and install it either after it fails or wait till tomorrow to see whether things I did makes a difference. If it fail again, I'll get to the Nirsoft. Just one at a time.

Thanks

 

[meBigGuy]

sounds like a rational plan to me.

 

[yungman]

It's still working after 24hrs. I am crossing my fingers. But one thing is I have not been using the computer as much as I can't get on web because I don't have Norton. But I have a lot of folders, files and a few programs opened.

I just reinstalled Norton. We'll see whether it still fail or not.

I also plug in a flash drive and open the drive so if the laptop fail, I can try open one of the file in the flash drive. If I can open the file, then the problem is limited to the SSD drive inside the computer. If it still fail, then the problem is not the SSD drive.

 

[yungman]

It's still working after 20 hours. I have a few folders opened and a few programs opened. I have been using the laptop enough. Now I have reinstalled Norton, I have been on line also.

The laptop restarted this morning by itself, but that's common as there are constant update every few days. One thing strange is I did opened a few folders this morning and they got closed. I am pretty sure I was not dreaming that! But I opened the folders again and everything seems fine. so I am crossing my fingers that the old Norton is corrupted somehow.

I also disable quite a few programs in startup using msconfig, I don't know whether one of them is the problem.