Muhammad Caricatures: Middle East Reaction & Nordic Press

[ComputerGeek]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4670370.stm

I have to say that I have never seen a more ridicilously overblown reaction to anyhing. Boycotting a whole nation because of what one paper published.

I think this really shows how far behind the middle east is. If they can not even understand how freedom of press works they are in a really sad state.

I hope they atleast understand that not many of us nordic people really give a damn about how they feel on what we publish in our papers. I just hope no nordic politican will start kissing ass to smooth this over.

You are not suppose to even make a "good" image of Muhammad, a cartoon adds insult to injury.

 

[ComputerGeek]

I agree - I've read a number of commentaries on this and the common thread is that those who are protesting this simply don't understand the concept of freedom of speech. It's sad, really - that's one of the most fundamental freedoms that a person can have.

You can understand their being upset though can you not?

 

[ComputerGeek]

I haven't heard of any reaction from US muslims, but European ones have had small, but peaceful protests.

save for the fires.

 

[Orefa]

You are not suppose to even make a "good" image of Muhammad

If you're a Muslim. If you're not a Muslim then the rule does not apply to you. It seems to me that the protestors are trying to impose their own religious rules on others.

 

[JasonRox]

With regards to what has been said in recent posts...

Americans have freedom.

 

[ComputerGeek]

If you're a Muslim. If you're not a Muslim then the rule does not apply to you. It seems to me that the protestors are trying to impose their own religious rules on others.

The point was not that no one should do it, but perhaps a little cultural respect, and understanding would help.

 

[Orefa]

The point was not that no one should do it, but perhaps a little cultural respect, and understanding would help.

Agreed. But it goes both ways. Infidels shouldn't hinder Muslims from doing their prayers in their own way and Muslims shouldn't hinder infidels from expressing themselves in their own way. It's fair.

 

[Lisa!]

I haven't heard of any reaction from US muslims, but European ones have had small, but peaceful protests.

Thanks! You know that's exactly the way I expected it to be.

P.S. I might take time later to tell you why it wasn't unexpected for me.(if before me russ wouldn't say that's because there's a cultural problem in ME that needs to be fixed! )

 

[EnumaElish]

Freedom of expression cuts both ways, doesn't it?

For example, what would the ACLU say in this case? My guess is, they would say that the newspapers have a right to print the caricatures. But they would (and should) also say that anyone offended by the caricatures have every right to protest and boycott as long as they do not become violent.

 

[vanesch]

For example, what would the ACLU say in this case? My guess is, they would say that the newspapers have a right to print the caricatures. But they would (and should) also say that anyone offended by the caricatures have every right to protest and boycott as long as they do not become violent.

Yes, but the thing goes deeper. I would agree with you if, say, muslims would call others NOT to buy the newspaper, or to send letters of protest to the *newspaper*. But the expressed hate and violence towards A NATION (and even "more or less" a nation: Denmark is more or less Norway, is more or less Germany...) goes much much further: they would like Danish authorities to PUNISH the newspaper. They would like Denmark to LIMIT the liberty of expression so that offending, in whatever way, their religion becomes A CRIME. They would want the West to censor itself when it comes to saying things they want not to hear. This goes way too far. We have struggled centuries to arrive at that great good: freedom of speech.
Freedom of speech engages ONLY the responsability of the speaker ; it does not engage the responsability of the nation that ALLOWS freedom of speech. And that's what's happening: those angry muslims would like us to DENY freedom of speech. Denmark must be punished because _it's legal system doesn't make it unlawful to say things that might offend their religion_.

The only respect a religion deserves is the freedom of cult (as long as that cult doesn't violate the law, like, say, human sacrifice or so), and the non-discrimination of the worshippers, meaning, it is not *because* you're a muslim that you're a lesser citizen, or that you may be persecuted or something. A religion, in a secular state, must not be *protected* by the state.

 

[selfAdjoint]

The only respect a religion deserves is the freedom of cult (as long as that cult doesn't violate the law, like, say, human sacrifice or so), and the non-discrimination of the worshippers, meaning, it is not *because* you're a muslim that you're a lesser citizen, or that you may be persecuted or something. A religion, in a secular state, must not be *protected* by the state.

And right there we have the "Clash of Civilizations". This seems obvious to us (to me too!) but it is an expression of evil to any evangelical religion. The fundamentalists in the USA got their drawers in a knot over the piece of art consisting of a jar of urine with a figure of Jesus inside. They didn't go on a destructive rampage, but they did get a lot of the government grants to the arts cancelled. I wonder what the Pope thinks about the current fuss.

 

[EnumaElish]

Freedom of speech engages ONLY the responsability of the speaker ; it does not engage the responsability of the nation that ALLOWS freedom of speech. And that's what's happening: those angry muslims would like us to DENY freedom of speech. Denmark must be punished because _it's legal system doesn't make it unlawful to say things that might offend their religion_.

What you are saying is, muslims should not streotype all Danes. Or all Westerners.

I personally agree with you, but the last time I checked, stereotyping was not a crime in Denmark or in "the West."

All stereotypes are either within the limits of freedom of expression, or they are outside of it. There can not be a double standard.

 

[Mk]

I haven't heard of any reaction from US muslims, but European ones have had small, but peaceful protests.

Not anymore. They've burned down two Danish embassies, and one Norwegian I think. Oh, maybe that was in the Middle East. But they've also had plenty of destruct-ful riots in Europe.

 

[Triss]

There have been said a lot in this threat, but to me the most striking thing is that it was first posted the in the beginning of January, while the drawings first appeared at the end of September.

One thing I think that is missing is the background for how all this started. A well documented and neutral account of Muhammad cartoons can be found at
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jyllands-Posten_Muhammad_cartoons

I do not really know what to think of it all. Yes I agree that Islam should be treated just like any other religion, and that means that it is a positive sign to finally also see such drawings in the realm of Islam. On the other hand, as have also been voiced, such drawings are perhaps not for the better, regardless of who they are portraying. The last point is properly true and should be discussed.

I must say I am very impressed with the tone in this threat. Not often one is able to see such display of respect in an international forum -- especially when it is regarding religion. A shame really, that it is not possible to see where everybody is from, that would have been interesting.

Not anymore. They've burned down two Danish embassies, and one Norwegian I think. Oh, maybe that was in the Middle East. But they've also had plenty of destruct-ful riots in Europe.

No no, the burning of embassies happened in Syria and Lebanon. There have been protests and demonstrations both my Muslims here in Denmark, some voicing their disagreement with the imam’s, some protesting against the drawings. No demonstration or protest have to my knowledge been destructive in anyway here in Denmark.

Edit: Ok, that is not entirely true. Extremists here have been spreading SMS’s urging people to boycott Muslim stores, groceries etc. Hopefully we are smart enough not to do that. There have also been SMS’s sent out, saying that the Koran would be burned at the city square in Copenhagen – that did not happen.

 

[Orefa]

Protestors are free to call for any type of sanction they wish, peacefully. They are free to exhort anyone to boycott anything, peacefully. Do so if you agree, ignore them if you don't. It's the way it should be. And non-Muslims can publish images of Muhammad with a bomb on his head without hurting anyone except perhaps their feelings. As I said before, get over it. In fact these caricatures had some positive effect since they provoqued the dialog we're having now on this forum. I think it has brought a better understanding of both sides to the participants, and it's not a bad thing at all. This is exactly the purpose behind the promotion of free speech.

 

[russ_watters]

You can understand their being upset though can you not?

Certainly. I've said before that peaceful protests are fine (I didn't differentiate in that post, but I'm sure you've read some of my previous ones).

 

[Bilal]

I remember several days after 9/11 one of the major network anchors was doing an interview with a bunch of school children. One of the kids said that they thought that the terrorists rammed the buildings because: Their religion says that if they kill someone who is not of their faith they will go to the Islam or Muslim equivelant of heaven or some crap.

In 1982, I was a child. I used to hear the same about the American … in schools, streets and everywhere, I used to hear people saying: what those ‘’American” want …. What wrong we did for them? Why they hate us so much?

In that year Israel invaded Lebanon with the support of USA and they massacred 20000 civilians … all the world was against them except USA, they even send a warship called ‘’New jersey’’ to destroy the Lebanese resistance.

In that time, there was nothing called “political Islam” except the pro CIA mujahideen in Afghanistan, all the organizations were secular or leftists.

So if you have 11/9 a few years ago, we in ME suffered from hundreds of 11/9’s in the last few decades.

Here is just an example of what happen on 16/9/1982 with the support of American:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/2255902.stm
((If Americans approached the 11 September anniversary with trepidation, many residents of Shatila camp, and its more run-down neighbour Sabra, have been dreading the milestone on Monday which marks two decades of pain and the futile search for justice.))

Now some other kid said that this is not the case and explained the religion accurately. I'd have to say that Americans have a clearer understanding of the religion since 9/11 than prior. Yet, we continue to have suicide bombings and violence in the name of religion to this day. So my question to middle easterners and members of the religions in question is how do you expect Westerners to perceive the religion? .

I am not religious, so do you think I will love what the American doing? Do you think that the problem is just with religion? In 80s ‘’political Islam” was a great alliance of USA they used to say: USA as Christian nation (people of book in Islam) is our alliance against the evil USSR and their supporters in the Islamic countries. Bush admitted that USA supported our dictators for 60 years, but he should admit also that USA gave unlimited support for the Zionism and for the radical Muslims organizations in Afghanistan. Actually the American created what called Alqaeda , Taliban and Mujahideen …

When someone misunderstands what I personally stand for, statements I have made, etc., I am expected to clear the mess up. I can't just say "I'm right and you're wrong!" I'm expected to explain my statements and etc. in order to clear up any misunderstandings. So my message to those offended by the cartoons is do something to clear up any misconceptions that the rest of the world has of you. While you allow terrorists safe haven you are sending the message that you agree with what they do and say, yet you claim you don't. .

Who are the terrorists? Algerian, Afghan, Egyptian were fighting OBL many years before 11/9. As I know that the American is the most religious nation in the world, and their leaders receive orders from the god to invade other countries.

So while I think Bush is an idiot I do kind of see what he means when he says: "You're either with us or against us." Meaning that you can't have it both ways. However, I think he could have put it more tactfully although I don't believe he has the mental capacity to do so.

Bush is the American version of OBL, but the difference is that: while nobody elected OBL and he is highly hated in our countries (all his supporters are several hundreds thousands among 1.3 B Muslims) … Bush became the president of USA through free election …

 

[Bilal]

If you're a Muslim. If you're not a Muslim then the rule does not apply to you. It seems to me that the protestors are trying to impose their own religious rules on others.

Suppose we replaced the pictures of Mohammed by a ‘’Jews Rabbi’’, could you call it as a freedom of speech or anti Semite? The problem is that they insulted the complete culture by showing that the roots of Islam (Prophet Muhammad) as evil. It is not freedom of speech , it is racsim …. I am against playing with religious feelings of people because the situation could be out of control and then we all will loose. The political climate and the tension after 11/9 is exceptional situation and the western media should stop “Satanisation” of Arab and Islam as they did with Jews in the past.

According to my knowledge, the people who organized these demonstrations asked for peaceful protests … only exceptional cases which could happen after football game.

Anyway, I am against all what they did, but this not means that the other side is completely correct.

 

[Cyrus]

I agree with Chroot on this one. If the muslim community wants to be part of the global community, they have to learn that not everyone will kiss their ass and agree with them. They need to learn to accept this fact. I think the cartoon was a big risk, and anyone with good foresight could have told that newspaper beforehand it was going to cause a major stirr. So in a sense, they reap the seeds that they sow as well. They have the right to be mad, but now they are just acting foolishly. Another thing to keep in mind however, is that most governments in the M.E are corrupt, so by allowing these events to occur, it helps keep the government and the people unified against outsiders instead of each other. So its in their interests for these violent protests. I think the smarter move would have been to shut down oil flow and cause a massive rise in oil prices. That would have been a way to teach denmark a lesson, but instead they turned to simple violence. To the M.E defense, however, they do not show disrespect to Jesus or Moses, as they are considered holy profits in Islam, so it was crossing the line by denmark.

 

[Bilal]

Agreed. But it goes both ways. Infidels shouldn't hinder Muslims from doing their prayers in their own way and Muslims shouldn't hinder infidels from expressing themselves in their own way. It's fair.

Why the American and European banned the Lebanese TV (Al Manar)? Why they banned several Arabic movies and they decided to punish any TV show them? I know these movies showing the Jews are ''trouble makers'', so why we can not call that as freedom of speech? Why we are not allowed to see these movies? Do not forget that we have a permanent conflict with most of the Jews and we love to see bad movies about them, as they also like to make bad movies about the Arab.

 

[Bilal]

Freedom of expression cuts both ways, doesn't it?

For example, what would the ACLU say in this case? My guess is, they would say that the newspapers have a right to print the caricatures. But they would (and should) also say that anyone offended by the caricatures have every right to protest and boycott as long as they do not become violent.

This is a good point... even I do not agree to punish Denmark because of the mistake of a newspaper.

The most effective weapon in the response on those cartoons was the boycott not the demonstrations ... the few crazy people burned the flags and attacked the embassies are not representatives of ten millions who decided to protest in civilized way.

 

[Bilal]

Not anymore. They've burned down two Danish embassies, and one Norwegian I think. Oh, maybe that was in the Middle East. But they've also had plenty of destruct-ful riots in Europe.

Burning flags and embassies are rejected by most people in ME. There are always bad people who try to take advantage of such critical enviroments. It is the same in Denmark when the right wing and the neo Nazi demonstrated and decided to burn the Koran.

I am watching the Arab media, and everybody feel sorry for what some idiots did. I think they decided to calm after these shameful accidents.

 

[Hurkyl]

The political climate and the tension after 11/9 is exceptional situation and the western media should stop “Satanisation” of Arab and Islam as they did with Jews in the past.

I would like to see evidence of this so-called Satanisation. After 9/11, all I saw were ad campaigns reminding people that not all Arabs are terrorists. Other than that, I haven't really seen much about Arabs at all on television. (And even when I do, it's in this same tone)

Similarly, in newspaper articles, most articles do not portray Arabs in a bad light at all. In fact, from the batch of articles about the Hamas election, one could get the impression they were never involved in suicide bombing at all if you didn't read carefully!

 

[Curious3141]

Continuing to cherish and encourage freedom of speech and expression are the greatest defence against the tyranny of fundamentalists.

I wonder, Bilal, when M.F. Husain did those "naked Goddess" portraits blaspheming Hinduism, did you speak up so strongly ? Were you affronted on behalf of Hindus ?

I also wonder - how come Husain is alive, well, and whole, living in India today ? Where was the "fatwa" requiring his death or torture ?

Muslims should be able to take it as well as they dish it out. I have a serious problem not with Islam per se, but the horrid double-standard practised by many Muslims. I have no respect for people who revel in a double-standard.

We live in a secular age. Deal with it. If someone wants to insult a faith, even your faith, then you can make a noise about it (that's the beauty of freedom of speech - it goes both ways), but the moment you get violent about it, you've crossed the line. These Muslim protestors holding up placards calling for violence and shooting police, all of them should be shoved into jail for a very, very long time. Noone has the right to hurt someone else for the sake of MYTHOLOGY ! MORE cartoons parodying Islam should be published by freedom-loving nations and peoples, because, only when the fanatics see the futility of their indignance and violence will they realize that they're actually completely ineffectual. Then perhaps they will learn to assimilate into a modern secular world.

No more mollycoddling, let's call a spade a spade. Many Muslims are violent, regressive azzholes, just spoiling for a fight on the slimmest excuse. They see nothing wrong with ridiculing the faith of others, yet take the deepest affront to the smallest perceived slight on theirs. Why should we reward such hypocrisy with understanding and "calls for calm" ? Why let them silence future voices and future pens ? Why let them win ?

 

[Bilal]

Another thing to keep in mind however, is that most governments in the M.E are corrupt, so by allowing these events to occur, it helps keep the government and the people unified against outsiders instead of each other. So its in their interests for these violent protests. I think the smarter move would have been to shut down oil flow and cause a massive rise in oil prices. That would have been a way to teach denmark a lesson, but instead they turned to simple violence. To the M.E defense, however, they do not show disrespect to Jesus or Moses, as they are considered holy profits in Islam, so it was crossing the line by denmark.

Even you look like aggressive ... I agree with these comments, there are political and economical (companies of milk - by the way I missed the Danish cheeze ) factors behind the flame of these demonstrations and the boycott.

Muslims ask the West to show some respect! Because it is too much to show every person born from Muslims parent as terrorist or evil by western media and Hollywood movies. Terrorists exist in all the cultures not among Muslims or Arab.

 

[McGyver]

What Would Rev. Martin L. King Jr. Say of This?

In honor of black history month in the U.S., and given the profound impact which the Rev. Martin Luther King Jr. had on peaceful demonstrations in the U.S., I can't help but wonder what he would say on this whole ordeal?

He had been a strong voice of "reason" and "leadership" during true difficult times in the U.S. Is there any similar voice in the Muslim world?

 

[Hurkyl]

Anyway, I am against all what they did, but this not means that the other side is completely correct.

This reminds me of something I'd been meaning to ask, but forgot.

Can we all agree that the actions of Islamist extremists led to a situation where some authors are being intimidated, and thus freedom of speech is being infringed?

Clearly you think that a demonstration of "we are not afraid" is unacceptable -- so what, pray tell, is an appropriate reaction?

 

[Cyrus]

Muslims ask the West to show some respect! Because it is too much to show every person born from Muslims parent as terrorist or evil by western media and Hollywood movies. Terrorists exist in all the cultures not among Muslims or Arab.

Bilal, you have to realize this about the media. 15 years ago, you would think every Russian was a commie bastard spy if all you did was watch movies. Columbians are drug lords, Australians seem to like crocodiles, chinese like to fight kung fu all day long, and blacks like to be in gangs and rob white people. Germans are Nazzis, and the english are still taking part of the revolutionary war. Movies are just that, a movie. Most media shows terrorists, not 'muslims.' There have been instances where they have made comments about 'muslims' or 'islam' but for the most part it is very rare. Its always been about terrrorists or governments .

 

[Cyrus]

BTW Bilal, middle eastern governments, yes, they are VERY corrupt. They take countless billions from their own people and put it into swiss bank accounts and live it up in Europe. Dont forget who your talking to, I know the BS and hypocrisy that goes on the ME and so do you. Have you seen the movie syriana? That was not anti Islam. It was more anti USA.

 

[Hurkyl]

It is the same in Denmark when the right wing and the neo Nazi demonstrated and decided to burn the Koran.

Which, at least according to Wikipedia, didn't actually happen, and actually is illegal in Denmark. (Though there did seem to be an attempt to organize it)

 

[Bilal]

Continuing to cherish and encourage freedom of speech and expression are the greatest defence against the tyranny of fundamentalists.

I wonder, Bilal, when M.F. Husain did those "naked Goddess" portraits blaspheming Hinduism, did you speak up so strongly ? Were you affronted on behalf of Hindus ?

I also wonder - how come Husain is alive, well, and whole, living in India today ? Where was the "fatwa" requiring his death or torture ?

I did not hear about that … and I am against the closed-mind poeple whatever their religion more than you can imagine. In ME we respect the Hindus and we really know a little about them. They used to a strong political alliance with Arab. Even during Pakistani-Indian wars, the Arab who supported India are more than those supported Pakistan.

I heard many people in ME angry after the destruction of Buddha …. But also we saw the extremists Hindus burning the Koran and hundreds of poor Indian kids and women because it happen they born in Muslims families!

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/low/talking_point/1846352.stm
http://www.islamawareness.net/Persecution/Gujarat/

Extremist and stupidly exists in all religions and among all the nations!

I have no respect for people who revel in a double-standard.

Me also

MORE cartoons parodying Islam should be published by freedom-loving nations and peoples, because, only when the fanatics see the futility of their indignance and violence will they realize that they're actually completely ineffectual. Then perhaps they will learn to assimilate into a modern secular world.

Of course they can, and also Muslims nations have the right also to boycott and demonstrate. Those who using violence should be punished.

Many Muslims are violent, regressive azzholes, just spoiling for a fight on the slimmest excuse. They see nothing wrong with ridiculing the faith of others, yet take the deepest affront to the smallest perceived slight on theirs. Why should we reward such hypocrisy with understanding and "calls for calm" ? Why let them silence future voices and future pens ? Why let them win ?

 

[Cyrus]

Many Muslims are violent, regressive azzholes, just spoiling for a fight on the slimmest excuse. They see nothing wrong with ridiculing the faith of others, yet take the deepest affront to the smallest perceived slight on theirs. Why should we reward such hypocrisy with understanding and "calls for calm" ? Why let them silence future voices
and future pens ? Why let them win ?

mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm....yeah

I guess you don't realize the hypocrisy in what you just said. Seems like you are just as guilty of looking for an excuse to fight as they are my friend.

 

[Bilal]

In honor of black history month in the U.S., and given the profound impact which the Rev. Martin Luther King Jr. had on peaceful demonstrations in the U.S., I can't help but wonder what he would say on this whole ordeal?

He had been a strong voice of "reason" and "leadership" during true difficult times in the U.S. Is there any similar voice in the Muslim world?

Not necessary to be correct always ... nations whom are under attack from powerful countries should do everything to survive… for example if they called the Red Indian in 15th century and the Jews in 2WW as terrorists and evil , better than to cry on their graves …

Muslims in USA is another topic ... they should use the tactics of Afro-American people.

 

[Cyrus]

Muslims in USA is another topic ... they should use the tactics of Afro-American people.

But what are they really going to protest about Bilal? They can protest about corrupt US foreign policy, but at the same time, they have to protest against corrupt ME governments too. They can't protest about fair treatment in the US, because they are not really discriminated against. Whats left to protest? They can protest against terrorists, but then that gives support to the US government on their foreign policy, which I don't think they should do either. It comes down to the fact that the people of the ME really need to get their act in order, seriously.

 

[Bilal]

But what are they really going to protest about Bilal? They can protest about corrupt US foreign policy, but at the same time, they have to protest against corrupt ME governments too. They can't protest about fair treatment in the US, because they are not really discriminated against. Whats left to protest? They can protest against terrorists, but then that gives support to the US government on their foreign policy, which I don't think they should do either. It comes down to the fact that the people of the ME really need to get their act in order, seriously.

The topic is not about Muslim in USA. After I replied, I realized that this post concerning only the Muslims in USA. I do not claim that muslims in USA are suffering.

I agree that our main problem is the governments in ME (besides the extremists). They should leave today before tomorrow...