Occupy Wall Street protest in New-York

[vici10]

New-York is in second week of Occupy Wall Street protests. Around 5,000 Americans came to Wall Street on September 17. Occupation continues till now, although new-york times reports arrests of 80 people.

Demonstrators said Saturday that they are protesting bank bailouts, the mortgage crisis and Georgia's execution of Troy Davis.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/44656667/ns/us_news-life/#.Tn-17tSfTks
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/cifamerica/2011/sep/19/occupy-wall-street-financial-system
http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2...as-financial-district-protest-moves-north/?hp
https://occupywallst.org/

So, new-yorkers that are members of the physics forum, can you tell us more about what is going on in your city?

 

[Evo]

Just shows that you can gather a group to do anything, doesn't need to be coherent.

 

[Pengwuino]

Sorry, I have a job.

 

[rootX]

I guess it might be a sign of youths' disappointment with the things happening lately in the U.S. ...

There was an interesting article recently,
"Could world social unrest hit America's streets?"
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-14978876

Bloomberg quote: "You have a lot of kids graduating college, can't find jobs".

What I find most interesting that Bloomberg saw it coming.

 

[WhoWee]

We'll see how motivated they are in a few weeks - when it snows.

 

[Galteeth]

http://www.livestream.com/globalrevolution

live feed

 

[Evo]

http://www.livestream.com/globalrevolution

live feed

Global revolution? Looks like they gathered the homeless people of NYC together from the photos on msnbc.

 

[Proton Soup]

I guess it might be a sign of youths' disappointment with the things happening lately in the U.S. ...

There was an interesting article recently,
"Could world social unrest hit America's streets?"
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-14978876

Bloomberg quote: "You have a lot of kids graduating college, can't find jobs".

What I find most interesting that Bloomberg saw it coming.

so he's comparing himself to Mubarak? i find that interesting.

 

[DoggerDan]

When a redress of grievances fails because the ones to whom you're appealing lack the integrity to make the necessary adjustments or corrections, people will start taking the gloves off.

Hey, it's the foundation of our country. Not exactly a foreign concept:

"That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government," - U.S. Declaration of Independence

Hopefully, our government can fix itself. I'm not holding my breath.

 

[Galteeth]

Global revolution? Looks like they gathered the homeless people of NYC together from the photos on msnbc.

Ok, that was pretty funny.

 

[mege]

I think their first mistake is comparing the blight in the US to that of Egypt, Spain, and Greece.

IMO: even at our 'worst' we're still doing better than those three countries at their peaks overall.

Some college grad with an English BA not getting a 60k/yr job right away and not being able to afford an iPhone every 6months is not a blight.

 

[Jack21222]

It's not really going to accomplish anything, but I suppose I agree with their sentiment.

 

[WhoWee]

I think their first mistake is comparing the blight in the US to that of Egypt, Spain, and Greece.

IMO: even at our 'worst' we're still doing better than those three countries at their peaks overall.

Some college grad with an English BA not getting a 60k/yr job right away and not being able to afford an iPhone every 6months is not a blight.

my bold

It's reality.

 

[MaxManus]

Some college grad with an English BA not getting a 60k/yr job right away and not being able to afford an iPhone every 6months is not a blight.

Things are far worse for many people than you imply.

The ranks of America's poor swelled to almost 1 in 6 people last year, reaching a new high as long-term unemployment left millions of Americans struggling and out of work. The number of uninsured edged up to 49.9 million, the biggest in more than two decades.
http://news.yahoo.com/census-us-poverty-rate-swells-nearly-1-6-142639972.html

For example, the poverty level for 2011 was set at $22,350 (total yearly income) for a family of four.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poverty_in_the_United_States

 

[WhoWee]

Things are far worse for many people than you imply.

The ranks of America's poor swelled to almost 1 in 6 people last year, reaching a new high as long-term unemployment left millions of Americans struggling and out of work. The number of uninsured edged up to 49.9 million, the biggest in more than two decades.
http://news.yahoo.com/census-us-poverty-rate-swells-nearly-1-6-142639972.html

For example, the poverty level for 2011 was set at $22,350 (total yearly income) for a family of four.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poverty_in_the_United_States

I'm not clear on the health coverage concern - perhaps the protest should be taking place outside of the White House, Harry Reid's or Nancy Pelosi's offices? They could have done anything they wanted - didn't need a Republican votes. my bold

"The share of Americans without health coverage rose from 16.1 percent to 16.3 percent — or 49.9 million people — after the Census Bureau made revisions to numbers of the uninsured. That is due mostly to continued losses of employer-provided health insurance in the weakened economy.
Congress passed a health overhaul last year to deal with rising numbers of the uninsured. While the main provisions do not take effect until 2014, one aspect taking effect in late 2010 allowed young adults until age 26 to be covered under their parents' health insurance.
Brett O'Hara, chief of the Health and Disability Statistics branch at the Census Bureau, noted that the uninsured rate for adults ages 18 to 24 declined last year — from 29.3 percent to 27.2 percent. It was the only age group which posted a decrease. "For the change in uninsured, the law change certainly could be a factor," he said.
The median — or midpoint — household income was $49,445, down 2.3 percent from 2009"

 

[mege]

Things are far worse for many people than you imply.

The ranks of America's poor swelled to almost 1 in 6 people last year, reaching a new high as long-term unemployment left millions of Americans struggling and out of work. The number of uninsured edged up to 49.9 million, the biggest in more than two decades.
http://news.yahoo.com/census-us-poverty-rate-swells-nearly-1-6-142639972.html

For example, the poverty level for 2011 was set at $22,350 (total yearly income) for a family of four.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poverty_in_the_United_States

Even at ~15% we're within a few percent of historic lows of poverty. (according to wikipedia - it's never gotten below 11% and has been much higher) The Wiki article even notes that some in Europe laugh at what Americans call 'poverty' - specifically noting that many impovershed Americans have a full set of appliances while Europeans in poverty might have an old tv and a hot plate (and a Euro in poverty that owns a car is a rarity).

I equate blaming the banks for poverty like blaming a gun for a shooting death. Is it the gun's fault, or the individual that pulled the trigger? In this case, the banks were only an enabler - the overextension of many American families pulled the trigger. The banks are tools, no different than a gun - used improperly, people can suffer. Overstated or not, this is really just a whinefest. Besides, if these protesters were serious about improving the situation - they'd be out looking for a job or donating their own time to someone in need. Protests are inherently selfish as they are calling for someone else to act.

 

[Jack21222]

I equate blaming the banks for poverty like blaming a gun for a shooting death. Is it the gun's fault, or the individual that pulled the trigger? In this case, the banks were only an enabler - the overextension of many American families pulled the trigger.

Nonsense. The government set up a situation, with the help of the banks, to allow people on wall street loot and pillage the American economy. CEOs and hedge fund managers made out like bandits as they brought the strongest economy in the world to its knees.

Overstated or not, this is really just a whinefest. Besides, if these protesters were serious about improving the situation - they'd be out looking for a job or donating their own time to someone in need. Protests are inherently selfish as they are calling for someone else to act.

This doesn't make sense at all. First, how does a few thousand people spending their time looking for jobs "improve the situation?" They might be able to improve their own situation slightly, but how does that improve the state of the nation as a whole?

Secondly, OF COURSE protesters are calling on somebody else to act. It's because THEY CAN'T ACT. They're not elected members of the government. They can't set regulations or change the tax code. It's absolutely absurd to pretend that they can.

 

[WhoWee]

New-York is in second week of Occupy Wall Street protests. Around 5,000 Americans came to Wall Street on September 17. Occupation continues till now, although new-york times reports arrests of 80 people.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/44656667/ns/us_news-life/#.Tn-17tSfTks
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/cifamerica/2011/sep/19/occupy-wall-street-financial-system
http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2...as-financial-district-protest-moves-north/?hp
https://occupywallst.org/

So, new-yorkers that are members of the physics forum, can you tell us more about what is going on in your city?

Because it's not clear what they want...

As per the OP (msnbc) "Demonstrators said Saturday that they are protesting bank bailouts, the mortgage crisis and Georgia's execution of Troy Davis. They said the protests were inspired by demonstrations in Egypt and Spain.
The marchers carried signs spelling out their goals. "Tax the rich," one sign said. "We Want Money for Healthcare not Corporate Welfare," read another."

I've concluded they must want a repeal of Obamacare and capital punishment? They must also want the Solyndra case prosecuted? As for the tax the rich - they must be very happy with current tax policy whereby the top 10% of all earners pay the majority of income taxes and families making under $50,000 per year are considered (everyone doesn't qualify) for re-distributions of the rich people's taxes?

 

[Proton Soup]

so is the forum consensus that these are just a bunch of dirty hippies?

 

[Edgetho]

Has no one besides maybe Jack21222 seen Inside Job? It's pretty clear why they are protesting.

The movement is disorganized, sure, but some of the concrete demands I've seen out of OWS are reinstating Glass-Steagull, and overturning Citizens United v. Federal Election Commission.

Not unreasonable demands.

 

[mheslep]

To gauge reasonableness one would have understand what those demands mean and why they are being demanded. I doubt most camping on the street have such an understanding. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123509667125829243.html"

 

[WhoWee]

Has no one besides maybe Jack21222 seen Inside Job? It's pretty clear why they are protesting.

The movement is disorganized, sure, but some of the concrete demands I've seen out of OWS are reinstating Glass-Steagull, and overturning Citizens United v. Federal Election Commission.

Not unreasonable demands.

Welcome to PF Edgetho.

 

[Jack21222]

To gauge reasonableness one would have understand what those demands mean and why they are being demanded. I doubt most camping on the street have such an understanding. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123509667125829243.html"

And Europe is doing so well... :-/

 

[mheslep]

And Europe is doing so well... :-/

<sarcasm>The problem in Europe then must be a lack of regulation, and not riotous deficit spending by the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PIGS_(economics)" . Maybe the Wall Street protesters should camp out in Athens. </sarcasm>

 

[John Creighto]

To gauge reasonableness one would have understand what those demands mean and why they are being demanded. I doubt most camping on the street have such an understanding. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123509667125829243.html"

Would you not think that any misunderstanding of the youth should be partly attributed to the educational system that they were raised within?
https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=535023

Is it any wonder why Robert Reich continues to stress the need for improving the education system in the united states?

 

[John Creighto]

The problem in Europe then must be a lack of regulation, and not riotous deficit spending by the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PIGS_(economics)" . Maybe the Wall Street protesters should camp out in Athens.

The problem with Europe has nothing to do with regulation or the “PIGS”. It is that the economies are too different to exist under a single currency without transfer payments between nations and a flexible system to adjust the money supply when currency is scarce.

 

[John Creighto]

I've concluded they must want a repeal of Obamacare and capital punishment? They must also want the Solyndra case prosecuted?

What was the point of this statement?

As for the tax the rich - they must be very happy with current tax policy whereby the top 10% of all earners pay the majority of income taxes and families making under $50,000 per year are considered (everyone doesn't qualify) for re-distributions of the rich people's taxes?

The top 10% pay more taxes because of the vast wealth disparities. Inequality is not a justification for inequality.

 

[mheslep]

The problem with Europe has nothing to do with regulation...

I know, that was sarcasm.

or the “PIGS”. It is that the economies are too different to exist under a single currency without transfer payments between nations and a flexible system to adjust the money supply when currency is scarce.

Well yes, those economies are singularly different in that they have enjoyed riotous deficit spending. Yes different currencies would have automatically addressed that difference, in part.

 

[mheslep]

Would you not think that any misunderstanding of the youth should be partly attributed to the educational system that they were raised within?
https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=535023

Is it any wonder why Robert Reich continues to stress the need for improving the education system in the united states?

Robert Reich? Who does not stress the need for improving education in the US? In any case without looking I expect whatever Reich calls for is likely to be an impediment to improving US education.

Edit: Yes

Q: What is your position on educational vouchers for private education?
A:[Reich] I’m against vouchers for private school but in favor of backing kids from poor communities and giving them a choice of public schools.

http://www.issues2000.org/Governor/Robert_Reich_Education.htm#School_Choice

 

[John Creighto]

I equate blaming the banks for poverty like blaming a gun for a shooting death. Is it the gun's fault, or the individual that pulled the trigger? In this case, the banks were only an enabler - the overextension of many American families pulled the trigger. The banks are tools, no different than a gun - used improperly, people can suffer. Overstated or not, this is really just a whinefest. Besides, if these protesters were serious about improving the situation - they'd be out looking for a job or donating their own time to someone in need. Protests are inherently selfish as they are calling for someone else to act.

Because of the fractional banking system when a bank issues a loan they create money (because most of the money they lend is deposited back into the banking system and therefore can be relent as new money). The amount backs can lend is primarily restricted by the amount of leverage they are allowed to have. However, assets considered risk free (Such as government treasuries) do not constrain the leverage which a banks are allowed. Moreover a bank can inflate the asset values of it’s capital by under reporting the risk to make it look like it has a smaller leverage ratio then it would if it would have to value assets based on the possibility of systemic risk.

For instance how are facial institutions reporting the value of any Greek bonds that they own and does this adequately reflect the loss that would result from a default? A large part of any destruction in value due to a future Greek default must be attributed at least in part to an over inflated value of Greek bonds in corporate financial statements. The longer governments continue to prop up Greek bonds the longer period of times finical institutions are able to make large yields of Greek bonds.

The yields can be extreme given the high leverage ratios that they are allowed to have and the low interest rate which they are allowed to borrow.

Is it fair for finical institutions to be able to borrow at significantly cheaper rates than the average person? What economic advantages does this give to finical institutions which aren’t available to other members of the economy? What part may this contribute to the over inflated size of the banking sector that existed in the United States? Does a banking sector which is 20% of the economy represent efficient markets or simply an over bureaucratic form of wealth extraction from the rest of the population which does not have the means to play this game?

Whatever you think of the behavior of the American consumer the excessively low interest rates that existed for a long time represent a large subsidy to the banking sector and have made it very difficult for the average American to save.

 

[John Creighto]

I know, that was sarcasm.

Well it wasn't.

Well yes, those economies are singularly different in that they have enjoyed riotous deficit spending. Yes different currencies would have automatically addressed that difference, in part.

Whatever you think about the morality of deficit spending is irrelevant. Japan was able to sustain a higher debt to GDP then Greece. What is different is that Greece has to deal with the ideology of Eruo where the currency is not allowed to inflate as a means to adjust for large unbalanced finical outflows. This puts Greece at a considerable disadvantage to China which continues to PEG it’s currency to western nations to keep the cost of production low at the expense of the Chinese consumer.

 

[John Creighto]

Robert Reich? Who does not stress the need for improving education in the US? In any case without looking I expect whatever Reich calls for is likely to be an impediment to improving US education.

Whether or not he has the right solution to education is irrelevant. The fact is everyone must take responsibility for the consequences of the educational system. To simply blame failures of education on the youth is fundamentally unfair.

 

[mheslep]

Well it wasn't.

Thanks for trying to help me out by reading my mind but in this case I'll go with my own take on when I am or am not attempting sarcasm. Hey! There was some more!

Whatever you think about the morality of deficit spending is irrelevant.

Who said anything about the morality of deficit spending?

Japan was able to sustain a higher debt to GDP then Greece.

Good for them but that's largely irrelevant (for now) as the problem w/ Greece depends on more than just previously incurred debt.

What is different is that Greece has to deal with the ideology of Eruo where the currency is not allowed to inflate as a means to adjust for large unbalanced finical outflows.

Growth rates in deficit spending combined with debt-to-GDP tells lenders the likelihood of default. Greece has reached a point where even if they cut all discretionary spending they still need to borrow (i.e. deficit spend) to pay off the interest on the debt load. Yes dropping the Euro would allow them to deflate and export, growing revenues.

 

[Char. Limit]

To John: There's a multi-quote button so you don't have to triple-post.

BACK ON TOPIC, while I may not agree with the OWS protester's aims (largely because they have too many, and not all are even remotely connected), I do find it interesting that the movement appears to be spreading. Why just yesterday I heard of an Occupy Spokane protest happening right now to echo the OWS protest.

So obviously this movement is popular. I also happen to like the leaderless form of the movement. Now some celebrities like Michael Moore might try to hijack it, but right now the movement has no leaders and from what I've heard doesn't WANT leaders.

 

[Galteeth]

To John: There's a multi-quote button so you don't have to triple-post.

BACK ON TOPIC, while I may not agree with the OWS protester's aims (largely because they have too many, and not all are even remotely connected), I do find it interesting that the movement appears to be spreading. Why just yesterday I heard of an Occupy Spokane protest happening right now to echo the OWS protest.

So obviously this movement is popular. I also happen to like the leaderless form of the movement. Now some celebrities like Michael Moore might try to hijack it, but right now the movement has no leaders and from what I've heard doesn't WANT leaders.

Funny, the things you like and dislike are two sides of the same coin. This method actually seems to be working. Hive mind of individuals indeed.