Occupy Wall Street protest in New-York

[Galteeth]

Fascist wannabes is the term that comes to mind the more street videos I see of the "occupiers".

Fascist?

 

[Oltz]

I would just like to ask a quick question of the supporters of this "protest".

What in your eyes is the difference between a Union with forced membership and dues and a "greedy corporation"?

The reason they gave corporations rights to lobby was to balance Unions rights. Both stay or both go either is fine with me Personally I favor both staying and Right to work laws in every state. As well as dissolving federal level unions for Govt. employees.

State and local is the correct level for employees of the government to negotiate at becaue let's face it a Mail man in LA or NY does not have the same needs or requirments in a contract as one in WY or VT.

Disclaimer: I am a Vet I am on disability 30%. I work 60 hours a week as an engineer in "big oil" My degree is environmental geology. My wife is a music teacher and has her union dues taken out of every pay check for local state and federal teacher unions if she wants to be in them or not.

 

[WhoWee]

Apparently the TEA Party could learn something about image enhancement from the Occupy Wall Street group? my bold
http://abcnews.go.com/Business/occupy-wall-street-declaration-york-protesters/story?id=14656653

"Warren compares Occupy Wall St., at this stage of its life, to the nascent Tea Party, when protesters were seeking a vehicle through which to express frustration with the Obama administration.

What's different here? "The Tea Party seemed to be a movement of older Americans, more conservative, whiter," he says. OWS protesters "are younger, more diverse." They've got a sense of humor and they play better music. Some protesters Monday dressed as zombies so that financial workers could "see us reflecting the metaphor of their actions," according to OWS spokesman Patrick Bruner.

"I was down there yesterday," says Warren, en route to making his second visit to lower Manhattan to observe the goings-on today, "and what surprised me was how festive the atmosphere was. Nobody would describe a Tea Party meeting as festive."

He added: "There's no question, though, that they're angry and frustrated."

Just how frustrated became apparent Sunday, when hundreds of protesters poured onto the roadway of the Brooklyn Bridge, stopping traffic. Some protesters were detained temporarily by police, whom the protesters have accused of using too-aggressive tactics, including pepper spray."

***********

Please label this next comment - IMO - yesterday someone told me Anthony Weiner was the perfect face of this "movement" and they believe he will enter the 2012 race as the OWS Candidate.

On the other hand - the host (http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/erin-burnett-her-new-cnn-242302) of the new CNN show "Erin Burnett OutFront" said the group is looking for the new "messiah" - to replace President Obama.
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1110/03/ebo.01.html

"BURNETT: And, Bill, what about this whole idea we were just talking about from the Wall Street protests that there is this kind of need for a messiah or someone to solve all of the problems? Obviously Barack Obama was that guy and it's really hard for anybody to live up to being that person, right? Nobody ever lives up to the hopes and fears of everybody out there. So don't -- do you think that Chris Christie should be worried about the same thing?"

 

[WhoWee]

IMO - this movement has grown because people continue to be frustrated and angry - the reasons are more diverse than the crowd.

However, once this group finds a single voice - the "membership" will need to decide whether they agree with their leaders, the news media will need to decide how to report what that voice says, and politicians will decide whether or not they want to stand with the leaders of the group.

Right now - apparently - every frustration anyone in the group has ever experienced has been thrown at the wall - some will stick and some won't.

 

[mheslep]

Fascist?

Yes. A precise definition of fascism is illusive but I think the "occupiers" can be safely said to have common cause with traditional fascism.

http://occupywallst.org/forum/proposed-list-of-demands-for-occupy-wall-st-moveme/"

• Restoration of the living wage. This demand can only be met by ending "Freetrade" by re-imposing trade tariffs on all imported goods entering the American market to level the playing field for domestic family farming and domestic manufacturing as most nations that are dumping cheap products onto the American market have radical wage and environmental regulation advantages. Another policy that must be instituted is raise the minimum wage to twenty dollars an hr.
  
• Institute a universal single payer healthcare system. To do this all private insurers must be banned from the healthcare market...
  
• Guaranteed living wage income regardless of employment.
  
• Free college education.
  
• Begin a fast track process to bring the fossil fuel economy to an end while at the same bringing the alternative energy economy up to energy demand.
  
• One trillion dollars in infrastructure (Water, Sewer, Rail, Roads and Bridges and Electrical Grid) spending now.
  
• One trillion dollars in ecological restoration planting forests, reestablishing wetlands and the natural flow of river systems and decommissioning of all of America's nuclear power plants.
  
• Racial and gender equal rights amendment.
  
• Open borders migration. anyone can travel anywhere to work and live.
  
• Bring American elections up to international standards of a paper ballot precinct counted and recounted in front of an independent and party observers system.
  
• Immediate across the board debt forgiveness for all. Debt forgiveness of sovereign debt, commercial loans, home mortgages, ... And I don't mean debt that is in default, I mean all debt on the entire planet period.
  
• Outlaw all credit reporting agencies.
  
• Allow all workers to sign a ballot at any time during a union organizing campaign or at any time that represents their yeah or nay to having a union represent them in collective bargaining or to form a union.

A ~dozen or so of the 25 demands from the 1920 Program of the National-Socialist German Workers Party:

• We demand land and soil (Colonies) to feed our People and settle our excess population.
  
• In view of the tremendous sacrifices in property and blood demanded of the Nation by every war, personal gain from the war must be termed a crime against the Nation. We therefore demand the total confiscation of all war profits.
  
• We demand the nationalization of all enterprises (already) converted into corporations (trusts)
  
• We demand profit-sharing in large enterprises.
  
• We demand the large-scale development of old-age pension schemes.
  
• We demand the creation and maintenance of a sound middle class; the immediate communalization of the large department stores, which are to be leased at low rates to small tradesmen. We demand the most careful consideration for the owners of small businesses in orders placed by national, state, or community
  authorities.
  
• We demand land reform in accordance with our national needs and a law for expropriation without compensation of land for public purposes. Abolition of ground rent and prevention of all speculation in land.
  
• We demand ruthless battle against those who harm the common good by their activities. Persons committing base crimes against the People, usurers, profiteers, etc., are to be punished by death without regard of religion or race.
  
• We demand the replacement of Roman Law, which serves a materialistic World Order, by German Law
  
• In order to make higher education—and thereby entry into leading positions—available to every able and industrious German, the State must provide a thorough restructuring of our entire public educational system. The courses of study at all educational institutions are to be adjusted to meet the requirements of practical life. Understanding of the concept of the State must be achieved through the schools (teaching of civics) at the earliest age at which it can be grasped. We demand the education at the public expense of specially gifted children of poor parents, without regard to the latter’s position or occupation.
  
• The State must raise the level of national health by means of mother-and-child care, the banning of juvenile labor, achievement of physical fitness through legislation for compulsory gymnastics and sports, and maximum support for all organizations providing physical training for young people

http://users.stlcc.edu/rkalfus/PDFs/026.pdf

 

[dlgoff]

Yes. A precise definition of fascism is illusive but I think the "occupiers" can be safely said to have common cause with traditional fascism.

http://occupywallst.org/forum/proposed-list-of-demands-for-occupy-wall-st-moveme/"

• Restoration of the living wage. This demand can only be met by ending "Freetrade" by re-imposing trade tariffs on all imported goods entering the American market to level the playing field for domestic family farming and domestic manufacturing as most nations that are dumping cheap products onto the American market have radical wage and environmental regulation advantages. Another policy that must be instituted is raise the minimum wage to twenty dollars an hr.
  
• Institute a universal single payer healthcare system. To do this all private insurers must be banned from the healthcare market...
  
• Guaranteed living wage income regardless of employment.
  
• Free college education.
  
• Begin a fast track process to bring the fossil fuel economy to an end while at the same bringing the alternative energy economy up to energy demand.
  
• One trillion dollars in infrastructure (Water, Sewer, Rail, Roads and Bridges and Electrical Grid) spending now.
  
• One trillion dollars in ecological restoration planting forests, reestablishing wetlands and the natural flow of river systems and decommissioning of all of America's nuclear power plants.
  
• Racial and gender equal rights amendment.
  
• Open borders migration. anyone can travel anywhere to work and live.
  
• Bring American elections up to international standards of a paper ballot precinct counted and recounted in front of an independent and party observers system.
  
• Immediate across the board debt forgiveness for all. Debt forgiveness of sovereign debt, commercial loans, home mortgages, ... And I don't mean debt that is in default, I mean all debt on the entire planet period.
  
• Outlaw all credit reporting agencies.
  
• Allow all workers to sign a ballot at any time during a union organizing campaign or at any time that represents their yeah or nay to having a union represent them in collective bargaining or to form a union.

A ~dozen or so of the 25 demands from the 1920 Program of the National-Socialist German Workers Party:

• We demand land and soil (Colonies) to feed our People and settle our excess population.
  
• In view of the tremendous sacrifices in property and blood demanded of the Nation by every war, personal gain from the war must be termed a crime against the Nation. We therefore demand the total confiscation of all war profits.
  
• We demand the nationalization of all enterprises (already) converted into corporations (trusts)
  
• We demand profit-sharing in large enterprises.
  
• We demand the large-scale development of old-age pension schemes.
  
• We demand the creation and maintenance of a sound middle class; the immediate communalization of the large department stores, which are to be leased at low rates to small tradesmen. We demand the most careful consideration for the owners of small businesses in orders placed by national, state, or community
  authorities.
  
• We demand land reform in accordance with our national needs and a law for expropriation without compensation of land for public purposes. Abolition of ground rent and prevention of all speculation in land.
  
• We demand ruthless battle against those who harm the common good by their activities. Persons committing base crimes against the People, usurers, profiteers, etc., are to be punished by death without regard of religion or race.
  
• We demand the replacement of Roman Law, which serves a materialistic World Order, by German Law
  
• In order to make higher education—and thereby entry into leading positions—available to every able and industrious German, the State must provide a thorough restructuring of our entire public educational system. The courses of study at all educational institutions are to be adjusted to meet the requirements of practical life. Understanding of the concept of the State must be achieved through the schools (teaching of civics) at the earliest age at which it can be grasped. We demand the education at the public expense of specially gifted children of poor parents, without regard to the latter’s position or occupation.
  
• The State must raise the level of national health by means of mother-and-child care, the banning of juvenile labor, achievement of physical fitness through legislation for compulsory gymnastics and sports, and maximum support for all organizations providing physical training for young people

http://users.stlcc.edu/rkalfus/PDFs/026.pdf

Interesting you bring up the '20s. After hearing the latest news on W.W.S., I did a search for the best economic times in the U.S. and came up with this.

Under Republican President Warren G. Harding, who called for normalcy and an end to high wartime taxes, Secretary of the Treasury Andrew Mellon raised the tariff, cut other taxes, and used the large surplus to reduce the federal debt by about a third from 1920 to 1930. Secretary of Commerce Herbert Hoover worked to introduce efficiency, by regulating business practices. This period of prosperity, along with the culture of the time, was known as the Roaring Twenties.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_history_of_the_United_States"

 

[Hepth]

mheslep you do know that is just a list ONE person made on an UNOFFICIAL FORUM for the protest? Seems laughable and VERY misleading to try to use it as their actual list of demands...

and most of the comments on the post seem to be against it

 

[WhoWee]

Interesting you bring up the '20s. After hearing the latest news on W.W.S., I did a search for the best economic times in the U.S. and came up with this.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_history_of_the_United_States"

re-post
"Under Republican President Warren G. Harding, who called for normalcy and an end to high wartime taxes, Secretary of the Treasury Andrew Mellon raised the tariff, cut other taxes, and used the large surplus to reduce the federal debt by about a third from 1920 to 1930. Secretary of Commerce Herbert Hoover worked to introduce efficiency, by regulating business practices. This period of prosperity, along with the culture of the time, was known as the Roaring Twenties."

What is your point?

 

[dlgoff]

re-post
"Under Republican President Warren G. Harding, who called for normalcy and an end to high wartime taxes, Secretary of the Treasury Andrew Mellon raised the tariff, cut other taxes, and used the large surplus to reduce the federal debt by about a third from 1920 to 1930. Secretary of Commerce Herbert Hoover worked to introduce efficiency, by regulating business practices. This period of prosperity, along with the culture of the time, was known as the Roaring Twenties."

What is your point?

Like I said. I very seldom come here, but I thought it was interesting the Harding was a Republican.

 

[WhoWee]

Like I said. I very seldom come here, but I thought it was interesting the Harding was a Republican.

If we're going to reminisce...
http://www.senate.gov/artandhistory/history/minute/Senate_Investigates_the_Teapot_Dome_Scandal.htm

 

[dlgoff]

If we're going to reminisce...
http://www.senate.gov/artandhistory/history/minute/Senate_Investigates_the_Teapot_Dome_Scandal.htm

This is exactly why I don't come here much. Later.

 

[John Creighto]

Yes. A precise definition of fascism is illusive but I think the "occupiers" can be safely said to have common cause with traditional fascism.

You do realize that you cherry picked a set of facts to support your fallacy. The fallacy you used is some variant of Reductio_ad_Hitlerum[/quote]

Anyway, neither the left or right have a monopoly on fascism but I will address each point individually.

http://occupywallst.org/forum/proposed-list-of-demands-for-occupy-wall-st-moveme/"
[*]Restoration of the living wage. This demand can only be met by ending "Freetrade" by re-imposing trade tariffs on all imported goods entering the American market to level the playing field for domestic family farming and domestic manufacturing as most nations that are dumping cheap products onto the American market have radical wage and environmental regulation advantages. Another policy that must be instituted is raise the minimum wage to twenty dollars an hr.

Small tariffs aren’t a terrible idea anyway, as people should prefer goods from their own country and prices should reflect this. The current situation subsidizes the negative externalities which result from transporting goods over long distances. It also makes any stimulus efforts incredibly difficult. An alternative way to achieve this would be through a negative income tax. Now if everyone didn't fear starvation you might argue that this would kill the incentive to work. However if nations stopped manipulating their currencies world wages would adjust to much more natural levels and this would maintain the incentive to work. I can’t help but believe that a big part of the motivation of free trade is to break organized labor.

[*]Institute a universal single payer healthcare system. To do this all private insurers must be banned from the healthcare market...

I have no opinion on this.

[*]Guaranteed living wage income regardless of employment.

This can be solved with a negative income tax.

[*]Free college education.

A better alternative is to make the access to the means of education free. For instance if I can watch a lecture at home on a video there is no need for me to go to a classroom. Harvard has actually proposed that most learning should be done outside the classroom and the purpose of the classroom should be to discuss what is learned.

[*]Begin a fast track process to bring the fossil fuel economy to an end while at the same bringing the alternative energy economy up to energy demand.

I don’t think the technology is here yet.

[*]One trillion dollars in infrastructure (Water, Sewer, Rail, Roads and Bridges and Electrical Grid) spending now.

Without looking at it further this is sort of an arbitrary number.

[*]One trillion dollars in ecological restoration planting forests, reestablishing wetlands and the natural flow of river systems and decommissioning of all of America's nuclear power plants.

This seems like sort of a random request.

[*]Racial and gender equal rights amendment.

Isn’t this already protected?

[*]Open borders migration. anyone can travel anywhere to work and live.

Doesn’t this sort of contradict labor protection?

[*]Bring American elections up to international standards of a paper ballot precinct counted and recounted in front of an independent and party observers system.

Not sure if this would be more or less susceptible to abuse.

[*]Immediate across the board debt forgiveness for all. Debt forgiveness of sovereign debt, commercial loans, home mortgages, ... And I don't mean debt that is in default, I mean all debt on the entire planet period.

This sounds quite extreme. Surely they all can’t be advocating this.

[*]Outlaw all credit reporting agencies.

Interesting proposition.

[*]Allow all workers to sign a ballot at any time during a union organizing campaign or at any time that represents their yeah or nay to having a union represent them in collective bargaining or to form a union.

Not sure the current status of collective bargaining laws.
[/QUOTE]

 

[mheslep]

mheslep you do know that is just a list ONE person made on an UNOFFICIAL FORUM for the protest? Seems laughable and VERY misleading to try to use it as their actual list of demands...

and most of the comments on the post seem to be against it

There's no official anything in connection with the WS protesters, nor did I say there was. And while anybody can post comments on that website, the on the street interviews I'm seeing seem to be mostly inline with the general idea of the demand list posted there, which is 'we use the force of the state to seize wide swaths of the property of others'

 

[WhoWee]

There's no official anything in connection with the WS protesters, nor did I say there was. And while anybody can post comments on that website, the on the street interviews I'm seeing seem to be mostly inline with the general idea of the demand list posted there, which is 'we use the force of the state to seize wide swaths of the property of others'

Given the absence of any other organized, detailed, or specific list of demands - it appears the one you posted is about as good as it gets (at this point).

 

[gravenewworld]

Why?

Maybe because I'm sick and tired of my parent's generation pissing away my generation's future. The current recession has his people in my age bracket disproportionately harder. I'm sick of seeing our administrations and almost every single important government institution that is supposed to be regulating Wall Street being run by the cronies and henchman of groups like Goldman Sachs. We only live under a veil of democracy. The people that are really behind the show pulling all of the strings continue to get away with murder while millions of us struggle just to pay our bills and keep roofs over our head. It's time to get pissed off.

Our grandparents didn't let Wall Street get away with what they did after the stock market crash, I don't know why we continue to tolerate it.Firms like Bank of America, Goldman Sachs, etc. represent a far, far greater threat to our democracy and way of life than 'terrorists' 6,000 miles away.

 

[John Creighto]

Given the absence of any other organized, detailed, or specific list of demands - it appears the one you posted is about as good as it gets (at this point).

Prior to the post you are referring to I posted an interview of what some protesters would like to see:
https://www.physicsforums.com/showpost.php?p=3535527&postcount=58

Why do you think this list of demands is better?

 

[WhoWee]

Our grandparents didn't let Wall Street get away with what they did after the stock market crash, I don't know why we continue to tolerate it.


Firms like Bank of America, Goldman Sachs, etc. represent a far, far greater threat to our democracy and way of life than 'terrorists' 6,000 miles away.

Care to explain?

 

[WhoWee]

Prior to the post you are referring to I posted an interview of what some protesters would like to see:
https://www.physicsforums.com/showpost.php?p=3535527&postcount=58

Why do you think this list of demands is better?

It's written down.

The video calls for revolution - do you agree?

 

[gravenewworld]

Care to explain?

This is what our grandparents did about Wall St. malfeasance:

http://www.triplepundit.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/glass-steagall-act.jpg And it is this kind of manipulation within our government that is killing our democracy as well as our pocketbooks:

http://seekingalpha.com/article/152438-cftc-the-key-to-market-manipulationWhat's the point of even having a government if it is just loaded up with insiders for big banks, like Goldman Sachs, that end up giving banks exemptions from the rules or even writing the rules to benefit them? This isn't a democracy any more, it's an absolute farce. The letter in that article is absolutely damning. It's time to get mad and take it to the streets. The Baby Boomers continue to decimate the prospects for my generation, why should I sit here and take it?

 

[John Creighto]

This is what our grandparents did about Wall St. malfeasance:

http://www.triplepundit.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/glass-steagall-act.jpg


And it is this kind of manipulation within our government that is killing our democracy as well as our pocketbooks:

http://seekingalpha.com/article/152438-cftc-the-key-to-market-manipulation


What's the point of even having a government if it is just loaded up with insiders for big banks, like Goldman Sachs, that end up giving banks exemptions from the rules or even writing the rules to benefit them? This isn't a democracy any more, it's an absolute farce. The letter in that article is absolutely damning. It's time to get mad and take it to the streets. The Baby Boomers continue to decimate the prospects for my generation, why should I sit here and take it?

I understand your sentiment and I wrote about it previously. (see attached document). I'm not happy with the attached document though because I know in their heart they did what they thought was best and the whole creating of the label: The "Me Generation", is their way of rationalization their decisions. They bought into the market because they thought it was wrong for their parents to run up the nations debt to finance their retirement so instead they bought into a system which created apparent wealth though the rapid expansion of credit (A.K.A debt). What they failed to see is all debt is an obligation to the future.

The simple fact is that the next generation will always have to support the generation of their parents and their will often be a struggle for how much each generation should get out of it. They will in the end get hit by the crisis to because the wealth the thought they saved was an illusion and consequently they will lose most of their savings. They will be faced with the prospect of retiring in a nation which exported most of it's jobs to the third world. The baby boomers are just starting to retire now and things will turn quickly for the next generation even if it means the next generation is further behind then they wanted to be at this stage in their life.

 

[John Creighto]

It's written down.

The video calls for revolution - do you agree?

Did you watch the whole video? Is your whole debate strategy to cherry pick words and twist them to attack a position? That's a lot like trolling.

Revolution simply means substantial change.

For instance, "The Industrial Revolution"

[PLAIN]http://a5.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/307817_10150295547107735_672262734_8281653_200917647_n.jpg

 

[WhoWee]

Did you watch the whole video? Is your whole debate strategy to cherry pick words and twist them to attack a position? That's a lot like trolling.

Revolution simply means substantial change.

For instance, "The Industrial Revolution"

[PLAIN]http://a5.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/307817_10150295547107735_672262734_8281653_200917647_n.jpg[/QUOTE]

Your video bounces from person to person capturing ramblings. One person said they want revolution (do you agree?), one person said they wanted just 1 banker to be arrested (do you agree?), one person said they wanted change (do you agree?) - maybe you should make a transcript from your video clips of the things you do agree with - until that happens, you and everyone else in the "movement" will be free to cherry-pick - won't you?

To accuse me of trolling is ridiculous - my point was the list posted earlier is the only one I've seen in print. If the "movement" wants to use a video of this type to be the voice - then perhaps everyone should be heard - rather than cherry-picking people from the crowd - as is the video is the opinion of the person that edited the video - nothing more.

 

[John Creighto]

And it is this kind of manipulation within our government that is killing our democracy as well as our pocketbooks:

http://seekingalpha.com/article/152438-cftc-the-key-to-market-manipulation

Interesting link. It will take my a while to grasp it though. I'm fuzzy on how the market manipulation is suppose to work.

 

[gravenewworld]

Interesting link. It will take my a while to grasp it though. I'm fuzzy on how the market manipulation is suppose to work.

The mechanism isn't what's the most important thing to take away from that link, the most important thing to take away from that link is that we actually have written proof of firms like Goldman Sachs asking for exemptions from hedging rules AND the fact that they were able to hide it from most of the government for over 15 years! It's really not surprising that the CFTC routinely granted exemptions from hedging rules to firms over the past 20 years when you see who has been running it (ex-Goldman Sachs employees, former Chicago Mercantile Exchange head hanchos, and other friends of Wall St.). It's blatant corruption of our entire system, and it is costing us all dearly through higher prices for things ranging from oil to the very food we put on our tables. And when it back fires, we the tax payers are then forced to bail them out. It's a ridiculous system, and a fraud of a 'government' that is completely poisoned and infested with special interest groups.

The scariest part is the fact that Congress itself had no idea about all of the exemptions the CFTC was granting to these firms. The letters only came to light until Congress FINALLY investigated (in either 2008 or 2009 I forget) what was going on at the CFTC (too late, after the 2008 meltdown, after the dot.com bubble, and after record oil prices/crash).

If Congress has no idea what is going on within the government and just how much huge banking firms are able to rig our system by infiltrating almost every single important regulatory agency (that is supposed to be monitoring them) with their lapdogs, what does that make big banks? I'll tell you what...it makes them more powerful than our so called elected government. It's time to take it to the streets. If our government won't protect us, then who will? We the people will.

 

[WhoWee]

The mechanism isn't what's the most important thing to take away from that link, the most important thing to take away from that link is that we actually have written proof of firms like Goldman Sachs asking for exemptions from hedging rules AND the fact that they were able to hide it from most of the government for over 15 years! It's really not surprising that the CFTC routinely granted exemptions from hedging rules to firms over the past 20 years when you see who has been running it (ex-Goldman Sachs employees, former Chicago Mercantile Exchange head hanchos, and other friends of Wall St.). It's blatant corruption of our entire system, and it is costing us all dearly through higher prices for things ranging from oil to the very food we put on our tables. And when it back fires, we the tax payers are then forced to bail them out. It's a ridiculous system, and a fraud of a 'government' that is completely poisoned and infested with special interest groups.

The scariest part is the fact that Congress itself had no idea about all of the exemptions the CFTC was granting to these firms. The letters only came to light until Congress FINALLY investigated (in either 2008 or 2009 I forget) what was going on at the CFTC (too late, after the 2008 meltdown, after the dot.com bubble, and after record oil prices/crash).

If Congress has no idea what is going on within the government and just how much huge banking firms are able to rig our system by infiltrating almost every single important regulatory agency (that is supposed to be monitoring them) with their lapdogs, what does that make big banks? I'll tell you what...it makes them more powerful than our so called elected government. It's time to take it to the streets. If our government won't protect us, then who will? We the people will.

Sounds like a conspiracy theory?

Have you read this?
http://2010.newsweek.com/top-10/history-altering-decisions/clinton-signs-securities-legislation.html

 

[Proton Soup]

Did you watch the whole video? Is your whole debate strategy to cherry pick words and twist them to attack a position? That's a lot like trolling.

Revolution simply means substantial change.

For instance, "The Industrial Revolution"

[PLAIN]http://a5.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/307817_10150295547107735_672262734_8281653_200917647_n.jpg[/QUOTE]

yeah, that's used a lot in the Ron Paul material

http://www.ronpaul.com/category/ron-paul-revolution/

 

[gravenewworld]

Sounds like a conspiracy theory?

Have you read this?
http://2010.newsweek.com/top-10/history-altering-decisions/clinton-signs-securities-legislation.html

Conspiracy theory?

http://sanders.senate.gov/newsroom/news/?id=e802998a-8ee2-4808-9649-0d9730b75ea4

"This report clearly shows that in the summer of 2008 when gas prices spiked to more than $4 a gallon, Goldman Sachs, Morgan Stanley, and other speculators on Wall Street dominated the crude oil futures market causing tremendous damage to the entire economy," Sanders said. "The CFTC has kept this information hidden from the American public for nearly three years. That is an outrage.

DId you even look at the link and the letter?Also, who was running the CFTC in the 90s? That would have been Wendy Gramm, who during her tenure there deregulated/laxed the rules with regards to energy trading. Where did she end up going after her tenure? To a company that now lives in infamy--Enron. Of course, she was there when Enron was making filthy amounts of cash trading in energy after the markets for utilities in CA were deregulated (which eventually caused massive rolling blackouts and huge surges in prices).

Wendy Gramm's hubby, Phil Gramm, also pretty much single handedly killed Glass Steagall to deregulate the markets for banks and let them run away with speculative trading and gambling on derivatives. Where did Phil Gramm end up? How convenient, he ended up leaving Congress to go work for a big bank that needed billions in a tax payer bailout after deregulating everything.

And that's just 2 examples. Politics will always be corrupt, but it has gotten way out of hand over the past 20 years and it is time to put it to a stop. The middle class can crumble no further. Almost every single important regulatory agency is polluted with conflicts of interest. It's why there STILL has hardly been any legislation to regulate the derivatives market. It's why there STILL hasn't been a single banker thrown in jail for tanking the world economy in 2008. It's why we STILL will have the same problems in the future and will face financial bubble after bubble.

BTW I don't know why you are specifically mentioning Clinton. In no way at all do I think he is some saint. He made huge mistakes as well, such as signing the CFMA.

 

[chiro]

The mechanism isn't what's the most important thing to take away from that link, the most important thing to take away from that link is that we actually have written proof of firms like Goldman Sachs asking for exemptions from hedging rules AND the fact that they were able to hide it from most of the government for over 15 years! It's really not surprising that the CFTC routinely granted exemptions from hedging rules to firms over the past 20 years when you see who has been running it (ex-Goldman Sachs employees, former Chicago Mercantile Exchange head hanchos, and other friends of Wall St.). It's blatant corruption of our entire system, and it is costing us all dearly through higher prices for things ranging from oil to the very food we put on our tables. And when it back fires, we the tax payers are then forced to bail them out. It's a ridiculous system, and a fraud of a 'government' that is completely poisoned and infested with special interest groups.

The scariest part is the fact that Congress itself had no idea about all of the exemptions the CFTC was granting to these firms. The letters only came to light until Congress FINALLY investigated (in either 2008 or 2009 I forget) what was going on at the CFTC (too late, after the 2008 meltdown, after the dot.com bubble, and after record oil prices/crash).

If Congress has no idea what is going on within the government and just how much huge banking firms are able to rig our system by infiltrating almost every single important regulatory agency (that is supposed to be monitoring them) with their lapdogs, what does that make big banks? I'll tell you what...it makes them more powerful than our so called elected government. It's time to take it to the streets. If our government won't protect us, then who will? We the people will.

What you have said is important and I won't deny that.

However having said this, people should learn that they do have a level of power within themselves to effect change without having to protest.

First of all they can stop supporting the corporations by not buying their products and get other people to do so. If one person stops buying coca cola, it's an inconvenience. If a million people suddenly stop buying it, it's a clear message. The fact is corporations need people to buy their products and services. The good part about real capitalism is that it works both ways: people that make stuff that other people want get rich, and people that don't sell anything go out of business. Use that knowledge to your advantage.

Also I know that what is happening right now with banks and corporations is largely "anti-capitalist" since they are getting an unfair advantage from the government, but I will talk about that below. With this said I still encourage what I have said above as a supplementary part of the solution.

One idea I have heard form Max Keiser that seems very effective is to look at ways to attack a companies stock price through some kind of informational campaign.

The other way to stop supporting the current banking system is to minimize your debt. Cut up your credit cards, don't get a 300,000 or half a million dollar mortgage on a standard or low wage, and don't buy crap you don't need.

These banks function because of debt, and they are leveraged at mind boggling levels. If people stopped borrowing, then all of that leveraged money would not exist, and banks wouldn't have the kind of power they have now. You minimize your debt, you put the power back in your hands, and if/when it catches on, you send a message to the system that it is time to change. When you take out a loan, a lot of the stuff on the balance sheet is created out of thin air. If you reduce this activity, you severely cripple the system, since it depends on this ability, which is why it needs debt.

These banking institutions are leveraged so much, that it is easier nowadays to do a bank-run or to bring down these institutions in a much easier fashion.

Like other people have said in this thread we need a revolution, but we need it on more than one level. One level is what I've described in my post. Another level is what other posters have described.

It requires a level of social change that is unprecedented. For most people, we can not imagine living without credit cards, mortgages, car loans, and student loans. It also requires people to take an active interest in what their government is doing, and if it is acting in the interests of the people. It requires people to (more) responsible, and to take an interest in their fellow being. It also requires that many of the social structures that we have to organize society in many important areas need to be reviewed and changed.

Finally, this also is a time to realize that no one person, or selective group will be able to accomplish this. For something that is going to be effective especially in the long term, we need everyone's output in one form or another. The experiment of letting the few lead the masses has failed every time in history, and it has not surprisingly failed again. The whole idea of having many sovereign groups versus a global superstate makes sense from this point of view.

It's an exciting time in the history of human civilization, but it is important for us, especially in this age of technology, that we mature socially as well as in other ways.

 

[DoggerDan]

Fascist?

I see mhelsp's qualifier as reasonably accurate. Are you seeing something different?

 

[WhoWee]

It's time to take it to the streets. If our government won't protect us, then who will? We the people will.

What does this mean?

 

[Pengwuino]

I keep seeing these guys on the news.

Have these kids figured out why they're whining yet?

 

[WhoWee]

I keep seeing these guys on the news.

Have these kids figured out why they're whining yet?

It's just a guess, but I think they want their share of our 401K's.

 

[WhoWee]

Apparently this "movement" is in favor of corporate bailouts(?) - otherwise, why would the UAW participate?

http://news.yahoo.com/unions-lend-muscle-resources-wall-st-protests-070702582.html

""The great thing about Occupy Wall Street is that they have brought the focus of the entire country on the middle class majority," said George Aldro, 62, a member of Local 2325 of the United Auto Workers, as he carried the union's blue flag over his shoulder through lower Manhattan.
"We're in it together, and we're in it for the long haul.""

 

[Vanadium 50]

Guaranteed living wage income regardless of employment.

You see...it's on the radar screen.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Guaranteed living wage income regardless of employment.

You see...it's on the radar screen.

Where did that quote come from?