On alien abduction, grays, and consciousness

[zoobyshoe]

His experience reminds me of the abilities of certain autistic savants, composing complicated music and paintings (masterpieces) from nothing while being severely retarded. I remember reading that the ability was inducible to a certain degree. Perhaps it is uninhibited during dreaming in some people and leads to recollection of vivid experiences.

I read a book about autistic-savants and a lot of people have studied the origins of their abilitites. It turns out these aren't the kind of full-blown superpowers they seem to be, springing from nothing. They are actually the result of being the only things these people can do. In other words, if the only thing you've ever been able to grasp is music, then that's all you do and think about 24/7. If music is all you think about 24/7 then you end up with a facility for it. The same goes for math, art, or whatever they get involved with. They get really good at it because it's the only thing they do all the time, not because it starts out being any easier for them than for anyone else.

Normal people can develop the same abilities by intensly focusing on one thing for extended periods. They did an experiment where they got a college math student to practise calculating calendar dates in his head, figuring out what day of the week any given date had fallen on. At first this was quite difficult and tedious for him. He got better and better at it, though, and practised constantly, and eventually crossed some kind of threshold where he suddenly always knew the answer without having to consciously calculate it.

I doubt if ubavontuba's vivid dreams have anything to do with that. I suspect that he simply experiences the right balance of neurotransmitters during dreaming to make for the most vivid sensory experiences. My own dreams are more mood oriented than physical sensation oriented. I wake up recalling, and still feeling, strong moods, not sensory impressions. When I do recall a lot of sensory detail it's unusual and memorable.

 

[Entropy]

I wake up recalling, and still feeling, strong moods, not sensory impressions.

That happens to me a lot. I'll wake up and forget what actually happened in a dream, but I'll remember how I felt during it.

 

[ubavontuba]

In the fifthies there were a lot of movies about WW2 and several of them showed the interior of bombers and flying fortresses. You may well have seen some reruns on TV, with your subconscious retaining the scenes in the gunner's pit.

Altough I am certainly open to the suggestion that my dream's details came from somewhere of which I am not aware (I feel this is the most likely explanation) this wouldn't expain the details from the vantage point of the gunner, the colors, nor the details of how things feel.

Now that I think about it, The B-17 ball turret incident in the first Amazing Stories movie, probably preceeded Memphis Belle. That's another contender for where you might have picked up the details of such a thing.

Possibly, but I don't remember the waistgunner's position being featured so prominently in this episode.

Not to underplay the vividness of your sensory imagination, though. It's one thing to intellectually realize the gunners would be stepping on spent cartridges, and to dream the actual feel of that, or the feel of wool against your neck, or the motion of the plane. That's pretty impressive detail.

Yeah. I don't always dream so vivdly. When I do though, it's just like I've actually lived the event.

Did it happen to be a lucid dream?
Ive read lucid dream stories and they can apparently seem just as real and detailed as awake conscious experiences.

This particular dream wasn't lucid. It played out more like just living an event.

I have had lots of lucid dreams though. I often have dreams that will be playing along and I'll realize that I don't like what's happening and I'll simply change things around to suit me. I seem to have self-taught myself this technique when I was fairly young in order to avoid nightmares. Sometimes I'll begin dreaming of someone trying to attack me or my family, and I'll shoot 'em or beat the splat out of them. Sometimes I'll just make up a dream that makes me happy (like playing with my son in the park).

This effect leads directly into my original question in that in one instance (which I will desribe in a later post) I attacked "aliens" that were trying to abduct me.

I'll wake up and forget what actually happened in a dream, but I'll remember how I felt during it.

This happens to me sometimes too. However I usually remember the dream as an event that struck me a certain way. Sometimes, I wake up chortling with laughter at something that seemed insanely funny in my sleep (lots of fun) but usually isn't quite so funny in consciousness. My wife gets a kick out of this.

Once, I was singing "Santa Claus is Coming to Town" along with Bruce Springstein in a dream. I was having so much fun and I was so happy! My wife caught the trailing sentence of the song I was singing on tape. In my dream I sounded great, in reality I can't hold a note.

 

[newp175]

I read a book about autistic-savants and a lot of people have studied the origins of their abilitites. It turns out these aren't the kind of full-blown superpowers they seem to be, springing from nothing. They are actually the result of being the only things these people can do. In other words, if the only thing you've ever been able to grasp is music, then that's all you do and think about 24/7. If music is all you think about 24/7 then you end up with a facility for it. The same goes for math, art, or whatever they get involved with. They get really good at it because it's the only thing they do all the time, not because it starts out being any easier for them than for anyone else.

Normal people can develop the same abilities by intensly focusing on one thing for extended periods. They did an experiment where they got a college math student to practise calculating calendar dates in his head, figuring out what day of the week any given date had fallen on. At first this was quite difficult and tedious for him. He got better and better at it, though, and practised constantly, and eventually crossed some kind of threshold where he suddenly always knew the answer without having to consciously calculate it.

I doubt if ubavontuba's vivid dreams have anything to do with that. I suspect that he simply experiences the right balance of neurotransmitters during dreaming to make for the most vivid sensory experiences. My own dreams are more mood oriented than physical sensation oriented. I wake up recalling, and still feeling, strong moods, not sensory impressions. When I do recall a lot of sensory detail it's unusual and memorable.

I don't agree with your interpretation of autistic savants. There are numerous cases of infants with prodigous artistic and musical abilities, read the following: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/low/health/467029.stm.
Remember that we are talking about profoundly retarded todlers here, they don't even know the basics of what they are doing and they are too young and disabled to have practiced at all. Furthermore, the ability is inducible by the suppresion of the left hemisphere through disease or damage. In savants that have managed to devellop language skills, those abilities tend to disappear whether they practice or not. So it is not training that brings about savant abilities, they are inherent to probably all people but supressed. It could be that during sleep they are less inhibited and therefore lead to stunning and confusing recollections of imaginary events.

 

[zoobyshoe]

I don't agree with your interpretation of autistic savants.

The analysis I presented isn't my interpretation. It was the conclusion of doctors who studied the phenomenon in depth.

There are numerous cases of infants with prodigous artistic and musical abilities, read the following: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/low/health/467029.stm.
Remember that we are talking about profoundly retarded todlers here, they don't even know the basics of what they are doing and they are too young and disabled to have practiced at all.

If they can do it, they can practise it.

Furthermore, the ability is inducible by the suppresion of the left hemisphere through disease or damage.

You mean the ability to draw, or what? Are you maintaining that as soon as someone's left hemisphere is suppressed, they can pick up a pencil suddenly draw well without having practised?

In savants that have managed to devellop language skills, those abilities tend to disappear whether they practice or not.

This is just plain not true. Most savants can talk fairly well, and they retain their abilities when they do. Most of them prefer not to talk much because they aren't social people, but they can understand and use language well enough to get by.

So it is not training that brings about savant abilities, they are inherent to probably all people but supressed.

Not training, as with a coach or teacher, but self-motivated practise, yes.

It could be that during sleep they are less inhibited and therefore lead to stunning and confusing recollections of imaginary events.

This is what you suggested might be happening with Ubavontuba's dream, but I don't think the extravagant notion that we can become savants during sleep is at all necessary to explain his, or anyone's, vivid dreams. More likely than not, if we ran a series of neurological tests on him we'd find he generally pays more attention to sensory detail in waking life than most people. I, personally, don't pay too much attention to it being more absorbed by thoughts and emotions than sensory imput. As a result my dreams are mostly visual and emotional events, with very little of taste, touch, smell, hearing, or sense of motion to them.

 

[newp175]

Look what 5 minutes in Pubmed have produced!

Here, ill post the abstracts for you..

//
Postgrad Med J. 2005 Dec;81(962):753-5. Related Articles, Links


Unexpected development of artistic talents.

Gordon N.

Huntlywood, 3 Styal Road, Wilmslow SK9 4AE, UK. neil-gordon@doctors.org.uk

The development of exceptional and unexpected artistic skills at any age must be a matter of curiosity. This can occur among young children with severe learning difficulties, especially if they are autistic. Some examples of these so called idiot-savants are given, and the way in which their brains may function. It is also true that elderly people who suffer from frontotemporal dementia can find that they are able to express themselves in remarkable art forms. This can occur in other types of dementia, but then more often it is the changes that result in the paintings of established artists, for example in the paintings of de Kooning. Possible links between these two phenomenon are discussed, and it is suggested that in both instances it may be that if the brain is relieved of a number of functions it can concentrate on the remaining ones. Ways in which this may operate in both groups are reviewed.

PMID: 16344297 [PubMed - in process]



Dev Med Child Neurol. 2005 Jul;47(7):500-3. Related Articles, Links


Savant talent.

Pring L.

Psychology Department, Goldsmiths College, University of London, London SE14 6NW, UK. l.pring@gold.ac.uk

The notion of talent is an elusive concept but there appears to be sound evidence that both savants and experts share important qualities. Brief descriptive accounts of the talents displayed by savants are presented, along with a discussion of intelligence, implicit learning, and the organization of knowledge. Cognitive theories helpful in understanding exceptional abilities in people with autism are also discussed. It is concluded that a certain cognitive style, i.e. weak coherence, may predispose individuals to develop their talents. Although it would be interesting to speculate that some great artists and mathematicians show a similar degree of obsessive preoccupation and a cognitive style reminiscent of autistic spectrum disorder, presumably as a strategic mechanism, there is, as yet, little research on the subject.

Publication Types:
Review

PMID: 15991873 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]



Autistic savants. [correction of artistic]

Hou C, Miller BL, Cummings JL, Goldberg M, Mychack P, Bottino V, Benson DF.

Department of Neurology, Washington University, St. Louis, Missouri, USA.

OBJECTIVE: The objectives of this study were to examine common patterns in the lives and artwork of five artistic savants previously described and to report on the clinical, neuropsychological, and neuroimaging findings from one newly diagnosed artistic savant. BACKGROUND: The artistic savant syndrome has been recognized for centuries, although its neuroanatomic basis remains a mystery. METHODS: The cardinal features, strengths, and weaknesses of the work of these six savants were analyzed and compared with those of children with autism in whom artistic talent was absent. An anatomic substrate for these behaviors was considered in the context of newly emerging theories related to paradoxical functional facilitation, visual thinking, and multiple intelligences. RESULTS: The artists had features of "pervasive developmental disorder," including impairment in social interaction and communication as well as restricted repetitive and stereotyped patterns of behavior, interest, and activities. All six demonstrated a strong preference for a single art medium and showed a restricted variation in artistic themes. None understood art theory. Some autistic features contributed to their success, including attention to visual detail, a tendency toward ritualistic compulsive repetition, the ability to focus on one topic at the expense of other interests, and intact memory and visuospatial skills. CONCLUSIONS: The artistic savant syndrome remains rare and mysterious in origin. Savants exhibit extraordinary visual talents along with profound linguistic and social impairment. The intense focus on and ability to remember visual detail contributes to the artistic product of the savant. The anatomic substrate for the savant syndrome may involve loss of function in the left temporal lobe with enhanced function of the posterior neocortex.

Publication Types:
Case Reports

PMID: 10645734 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]


Br J Disord Commun. 1989 Apr;24(1):1-20. Related Articles, Links


The 1988 Jansson memorial lecture. The performance of the 'idiot-savant': implicit and explicit.

O'Connor N.

'Idiots-savants' are people of low intelligence who have one or two outstanding talents such as calendrical calculation, drawing or musical performance. Such people are mostly male and occur with high frequency among the autistic population. Do they perform their amazing feats because of an outstanding memory or do they draw on some faculty of reasoning to help them? Although they cannot easily make clear how they carry out their tasks by using speech, experiments reveal that they follow simple rules which they use to aid them in recalling correct dates and sequences in classical music. It has been said that they cannot abstract but this turns out not to be true: all can abstract to some degree and some are more at home with abstract than with concrete material. Whatever else is true of these handicapped but gifted people their gift becomes apparent at an early age and is apparently not improved by practice. Perhaps the most important conclusion from work with these groups is that their gifts force us to think again about the concept of general intelligence. How far is it possible to have low intelligence and yet be an outstanding musician or artist? Speculation on this idea may force us to revise our concepts of intelligence, neuropsychology and handicap.

PMID: 2638187 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]


Neurocase. 2004 Jun;10(3):215-22. Related Articles, Links


Switching skills on by turning off part of the brain.

Young RL, Ridding MC, Morrell TL.

Department of Psychology, Flinders University of South Australia, Adelaide, South Australia. robyn.young@flinders.edu.au

Snyder and Mitchell (1999) have argued that the extraordinary skills of savants, including mathematics and drawing, are within us all but cannot normally be accessed without some form of brain damage. It has also been argued that such skills can be made accessible to normal people by switching off part of their brain artificially using magnetic pulses (Carter, 1999). Using repetitive transcranial magnetic stimulation (rTMS) to interrupt the function of the frontotemporal lobe, a region of the brain implicated in the development of savant skills (Miller et al., 1996,1998), we tested this hypothesis. Here we show that savant-type skills improved in 5 out of 17 participants during the period of stimulation. The enhanced skills included declarative memory, drawing, mathematics, and calendar calculating.In addition to overall improvement being observed, striking improvements in individual performance on various tasks were also seen.

Publication Types:
Clinical Trial

PMID: 15788259 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]



Concept formation: 'object' attributes dynamically inhibited from conscious awareness.

Snyder A, Bossomaier T, Mitchell DJ.

Centre for the Mind, Australian National University, ACT 0200, Australia. allan@centreforthemind.com

We advance a dominant neural strategy for facilitating conceptual thought. Concepts are groupings of "object" attributes. Once the brain learns such critical groupings, the "object" attributes are inhibited from conscious awareness. We see the whole, not the parts. The details are inhibited when the concept network is activated, ie. the inhibition is dynamic and can be switched on and off. Autism is suggested to be the state of retarded concept formation. Our model predicts the possibility of accessing nonconscious information by artificially disinhibiting (turning off) the inhibiting networks associated with concept formation, using transcranial magnetic brain stimulation (TMS). For example, this opens the door for the restoration of perfect pitch, for recalling detail, for acquiring accent-free second languages beyond puberty, and even for enhancing creativity. The model further shows how unusual autistic savant skills as well as certain psychopathologies can be due respectively to privileged or inadvertent access to information that is normally inhibited from conscious awareness.

PMID: 15139077 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE


1: J Integr Neurosci. 2003 Dec;2(2):149-58. Related Articles, Links


Savant-like skills exposed in normal people by suppressing the left fronto-temporal lobe.

Snyder AW, Mulcahy E, Taylor JL, Mitchell DJ, Sachdev P, Gandevia SC.

Centre for the Mind, The University of Sydney, NSW 2006, Australia. allan@centreforthemind.com

The astonishing skills of savants have been suggested to be latent in everyone, but are not normally accessible without a rare form of brain impairment. We attempted to simulate such brain impairment in healthy people by directing low-frequency magnetic pulses into the left fronto-temporal lobe. Significant stylistic changes in drawing were facilitated by the magnetic pulses in four of our 11 participants. Some of these "facilitated" participants also displayed enhanced proofreading ability. Our conclusions are derived from 11 right-handed male university students, eight of whom underwent placebo stimulation. We examined performance before, during and after exposure to the stimulation.

PMID: 15011267 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]


Int J Psychoanal. 2003 Aug;84(Pt 4):1061-2. Related Articles, Links


Comment on:
Int J Psychoanal. 2003 Feb;84(Pt 1):17-30.

Savant syndrome and dreams.

Blechner MJ.

//

Of particular interest is number 5 and 7. I couldn't access the content on the last one and there was no abstract.

Thank you for making me research this area; it is very interesting and I never bothered with it before...

 

[Chronos]

Newp did a good job scoping this out, as did zoob. It's either a hoax, hallucination, or delusion. Why do 'abductees' never bring back alien artifacts or rosetta stones? My guess . . . hoofprints.

 

[zoobyshoe]

Thank you for making me research this area; it is very interesting and I never bothered with it before...

Yes, but I don't see that your argument is vindicated. All the abstracts say essentially the same thing I did, which is that when something is all you can do, you end up able to do it remarkable well. The normal subjects who had parts of their brains suppressed merely showed "improvements" in skills they already had, which is not a surprise since distractions were removed. No one demonstrated a sudden ability to do something they couldn't do before.

Savants, who are always unresponsive to certain normal distractions, take what they can learn and ruminate on it endlessly, becoming exceptionally skilled at it. These skills don't pop from their brains full blown, but are acquired in a normal learning process.

 

[PIT2]

Newp did a good job scoping this out, as did zoob. It's either a hoax, hallucination, or delusion. Why do 'abductees' never bring back alien artifacts or rosetta stones?

Or they really are being abducted. Let's not forget the possibility that these events actually are what they seem to be.

 

[Entropy]

Or they really are being abducted. Let's not forget the possibility that these events actually are what they seem to be.

But they seem to be false.

 

[SGT]

But they seem to be false.

An unlikely event is not impossible, only unlikely. I classify the probability of the truth in alien abductions in the same level of the truth about Santa Claus or the Easter Bunny. Nobody has proved they are false (it is impossible to prove the a universal negative), but they are highly unlikely.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

How many Santa reports do we get every year?

 

[SGT]

How many Santa reports do we get every year?

Thousands. They show up in every department store near Christmas.

 

[PIT2]

But they seem to be false.

To the abductees the experiences seem like completely real encounters with alien beings. So much so in fact that some end up with Post Traumatic Stress Syndrome, similar to what war veterans have.

Also:

"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence."

 

[SGT]

To the abductees the experiences seem like completely real encounters with alien beings. So much so in fact that some end up with Post Traumatic Stress Syndrome, similar to what war veterans have.

Also:

"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence."

The delusions of a schizophrenic seem real to him/her. The same happens with false memories implanted in their patients by therapists. Remember that the Hills were only able to remember their experience after they got therapy.

 

[PIT2]

The delusions of a schizophrenic seem real to him/her. The same happens with false memories implanted in their patients by therapists. Remember that the Hills were only able to remember their experience after they got therapy.

War veterans were not traumatised by an imaginary war.
Also, when 5 people simultaneously see a red car, usually the red car exists. Logically, the same applies to UFO's and aliens.

 

[SGT]

War veterans were not traumatised by an imaginary war.
Also, when 5 people simultaneously see a red car, usually the red car exists. Logically, the same applies to UFO's and aliens.

I did not say all traumatic experiences are imaginary. Of course war veterans have real reason to be traumatized. A victim of rape is traumatized for a real experience too. Even less traumatic events can impact heavilly on a person.
But a delusion is as real to the delusioned person as an actual event. Several people traumatized by supposed mistreatment by their parents during childhood had the memories of the events implanted on them by bad therapists. The trauma those people feel by believing their parents were child molesters is very real to them.
There is no documented evidence of several people seing a UFO at close range. The UFOs witnessed by several observers are exactly what the name implies: an object they cannot identify. If can be anything, from a baloon to a bright planet, like Venus or a Galaxy class spaceship.

 

[PIT2]

I did not say all traumatic experiences are imaginary. Of course war veterans have real reason to be traumatized. A victim of rape is traumatized for a real experience too. Even less traumatic events can impact heavilly on a person.

And now we can add alien abductions to list of the PTSD causing events.

But a delusion is as real to the delusioned person as an actual event. Several people traumatized by supposed mistreatment by their parents during childhood had the memories of the events implanted on them by bad therapists. The trauma those people feel by believing their parents were child molesters is very real to them.

Note that many abductees have been psychologically tested, and no sign of any delusion-causing mental illness was to be found. It would be convenient if it was discovered that they were all schizophrenics, but this is not the case. It is possible that there is some new unknown psychological phenomenon going on, but as of yet, no such phenomenom has been uncovered.

There is no documented evidence of several people seing a UFO at close range.

Actually there are quite a few such cases

 

[SGT]

And now we can add alien abductions to list of the PTSD causing events.

I agree. This does not mean they are real.

Note that many abductees have been psychologically tested, and no sign of any delusion-causing mental illness was to be found. It would be convenient if it was discovered that they were all schizophrenics, but this is not the case. It is possible that there is some new unknown psychological phenomenon going on, but as of yet, no such phenomenom has been uncovered.

Mentally sound people can be deluded. As I said before, therapists can implant delusions on people.

Actually there are quite a few such cases

Care to cite some?

 

[PIT2]

Care to cite some?

Close up UFO sightings with multiple witnesses?

 

[SGT]

Close up UFO sightings with multiple witnesses?

Yes!

 

[PIT2]

Yes!

There is the belgian triangle case, rendlesham case, travis walton case, pascagoula case, allagash case, kelly cahill case... i could go on for hours and hours!

Some of those must sound familiar to u.

 

[SGT]

There is the belgian triangle case, rendlesham case, travis walton case, pascagoula case, allagash case, kelly cahill case... i could go on for hours and hours!

Some of those must sound familiar to u.

Here is a debunking of the Rendelsham case. I will post other debunkings when I find them. Of course you are as free to doubt the debunker as I am of doubting the alleged witnesses.

 

[PIT2]

Here is a debunking of the Rendelsham case. I will post other debunkings when I find them. Of course you are as free to doubt the debunker as I am of doubting the alleged witnesses.

It doesn't matter what some other persons believe to be true or not, the cases exist and have been documented

(all radpiths explanations have been debunked btw)

 

[zoobyshoe]

To the abductees the experiences seem like completely real encounters with alien beings. So much so in fact that some end up with Post Traumatic Stress Syndrome, similar to what war veterans have.

And I was severely bothered for a couple days after my "abduction". It was vividly realistic: all sensory details. If this happened to me several times with no explanation I'm sure I would be at risk of PTSD from it.

Before I ever found out what sleep paralysis was I once confessed this story to close friends when we were on a long drive to another state and the subject of dreams and nighmares came up. They had a strong, sympathetic reaction to the story: it disturbed them deeply. Simply by describing it to them as vividly as it had seemed to me was enough to disturb them, and upset, somewhat, their sense of everyday order and well being.

Now though, having found out about sleep paralysis, I'm sure I upset them and myself for nothing. Things don't have to be real to traumatize people. They only have to seem real.

 

[PIT2]

Before I ever found out what sleep paralysis was I once confessed this story to close friends when we were on a long drive to another state and the subject of dreams and nighmares came up.

As is mentioned in the article on the first page, sleep paralysis cannot be the explanation for all abduction accounts (remember the cases where the person is completely awake doing whatever awake people are doing, or the multiple witness cases). The article also states that there are bedroom abduction cases, which do not have any symptoms of sleep paralysis:

Nighttime abduction cases often involve other witnesses, temporary disappearances of the abductee, specific types of physical marks, scars or bruises - even broken bones - which appeared during the night, and occasional situations in which the abductee awakens wearing a stranger's nightclothes. In many consciously recalled nocturnal abductions, none of the symptoms of sleep paralysis are recalled.

http://www.intrudersfoundation.org/junk_science_paralysis.html

It would be interesting to see if sleep paralysis sufferers can develop PTSD from it.

 

[zoobyshoe]

As is mentioned in the article on the first page, sleep paralysis cannot be the explanation for all abduction accounts (remember the cases where the person is completely awake doing whatever awake people are doing, or the multiple witness cases).

I agree it doesn't necessarily explain all cases, but don't forget the whole first part of my experience which was some kind of non-paralyzed hallucination of getting up and walking down to the McDonalds. I could go to Budd Hoskins and tell him my story and claim the whole thing couldn't have been sleep paralysis because of that first part, and that he should know alien abductors also sometimes look like normal humans.

I won't, though, because I don't believe that's the case. I had sleep paralysis three other times, and know it happens in degrees. Two of the other times I was merely paralyzed in my room in my bed, able to see but not move. The only distress was about not being able to move no matter how hard I tried. The third time there was someone pacing back and forth by the bed just out of my range of vision, bouncing a basketball.

All this adds up to random neurotransmitter tricks and glitches.

It would be interesting to see if sleep paralysis sufferers can develop PTSD from it.

You should read The Professor And The Madman, the true story about the man who supervised the first edition of the OED, and his main contributor, a murderer locked up in an asylum for the criminally insane. The latter seems to have had sleep paralysis nearly every night during which he was physically used by the abductors. In fact, the "murder" he comitted was the result of coming out of one of these paralysis attacks, picking up a pistol and charging out to kill the man who'd just molested him. The man he ended up shooting turned out to be an innocent man walking by on his way to work just before sunrise. So, I'd say it can seem very real and disturbing and drive a person crazy, yes, if it happens chronically.

 

[PIT2]

I agree it doesn't necessarily explain all cases, but don't forget the whole first part of my experience which was some kind of non-paralyzed hallucination of getting up and walking down to the McDonalds. I could go to Budd Hoskins and tell him my story and claim the whole thing couldn't have been sleep paralysis because of that first part, and that he should know alien abductors also sometimes look like normal humans.

Ur experience still happened in ur bed while asleep/paralysed, and it simply doesn't match abduction accounts. I am not saying that its impossible that abductions are completely hallucinatory(after all its possible that our entire lifes are), but there is no cleatcut evidence that suggests this is the case. To compare ur experience with alien abductions, just imagine that people all over the world started to have similar experiences of walking to the macdonalds and then waking up on top of another guy. Now add some cases where multiple people observe this, many more cases where this happens to people who are fully awake, some where the person actually goes physically missing for awhile, and then u can see how it isn't quite the same.

All this adds up to random neurotransmitter tricks and glitches.

So does every other experience one might say.

You should read The Professor And The Madman, the true story about the man who supervised the first edition of the OED, and his main contributor, a murderer locked up in an asylum for the criminally insane. The latter seems to have had sleep paralysis nearly every night during which he was physically used by the abductors. In fact, the "murder" he comitted was the result of coming out of one of these paralysis attacks, picking up a pistol and charging out to kill the man who'd just molested him. The man he ended up shooting turned out to be an innocent man walking by on his way to work just before sunrise. So, I'd say it can seem very real and disturbing and drive a person crazy, yes, if it happens chronically.

There are also madmen that fight with satan. All this does not evaporate the fact that abductees have been psychologically tested and found not to be mad at all. In other words, there is little more reason to suspect that above story applies to abductees than there is suspect it applies to anyone else. That the events described by abductees are unusual, is not exactly a proper reason to conclude that the abductees hallucinated.

If these things really are delusions, then (similarly to what happens when schizo's experience them) there should be plenty cases where multiple people are present, and of which only the delusional person sees the delusion, making it obvious to all others present that this person is seeing something that is not there. I have read one such story about a woman in a car who was being interviewed by a ufologist, when suddenly she saw an entirely different environment around her and an alien coming towards her. The ufologist didnt see anything, and I've read other ufologists say that this wasnt a real abductee.

 

[SGT]

It doesn't matter what some other persons believe to be true or not, the cases exist and have been documented

(all radpiths explanations have been debunked btw)

There are documents that confirm the cases and others that show they are not true. I have already provided evidence against the Rendelshan case. Here is a debunking of the Travis Walton case. As I said, you are free to dismiss the negative evidence and believe in the ones that confirm your beliefs.
In the hypothetical case you proposed of several witnesses saying they saw a red car, suppose several other people saying there was no red car in that place. We can say that one group or another is lying. Since the existence of red cars does not infringe any known law of Nature, I would need further investigations to decide where is the truth. In the case of UFOs several known laws are broken so I will ask for stronger evidence than some witnessing.

 

[SGT]

...
There are also madmen that fight with satan. All this does not evaporate the fact that abductees have been psychologically tested and found not to be mad at all.
...

I am no psychiatrist and even if I were, I could not judge on the sanity of a person by his writings in a board, but I don't think zoobyshoe is mad either. But he had an experience that is indistinguishable of an abduction.

 

[PIT2]

There are documents that confirm the cases and others that show they are not true. I have already provided evidence against the Rendelshan case. Here is a debunking of the Travis Walton case. As I said, you are free to dismiss the negative evidence and believe in the ones that confirm your beliefs.

Believe whatever u wish to believe. However, remember to be skeptical of both sides, it can be an enlightening experience There used to be people that dismissed the existence of meteors u know.

In the hypothetical case you proposed of several witnesses saying they saw a red car, suppose several other people saying there was no red car in that place. We can say that one group or another is lying. Since the existence of red cars does not infringe any known law of Nature, I would need further investigations to decide where is the truth. In the case of UFOs several known laws are broken so I will ask for stronger evidence than some witnessing.

When everyone sees a red car, the red car most likely exists.
Its as simple as that.

 

[PIT2]

but I don't think zoobyshoe is mad either. But he had an experience that is indistinguishable of an abduction.

Similarly, i cannot judge about ur sanity either from what uve written. Though claiming that zoobyshoes experience is indistinguishable of an alien abduction, fits right up there in the category of claiming macdonalds employees are fighterpilots.

 

[SGT]

Believe whatever u wish to believe. However, remember to be skeptical of both sides, it can be an enlightening experience There used to be people that dismissed the existence of meteors u know.

And there are people that dismiss the existence of Santa Claus.

When everyone sees a red car, the red car most likely exists.
Its as simple as that.

Not everyone sees UFOs. And I sent you examples of refutations of two main UFO experiences. Have you read them?

 

[SGT]

Similarly, i cannot judge about ur sanity either from what uve written. Though claiming that zoobyshoes experience is indistinguishable of an alien abduction, fits right up there in the category of claiming macdonalds employees are fighterpilots.

zoobyshoe said that his experience is undistinguishable from an alien abduction. Are you saying that he is a lier?

 

[PIT2]

zoobyshoe said that his experience is undistinguishable from an alien abduction. Are you saying that he is a lier?

Care to quote him?