One more reason why I hate American Cars

[Cyrus]

Not only are they ugly and break down, they screwed their own dealerships left and right!

Why anyone would every buy an American car again boggles my mind.

The shut down dealerships and ruined those buissness owners lives without a care. Just for that, I'll never, ever buy a GM car as long as I live.

I was listening to CSPAN congressional radio. One dealer was shut down after being around for 80 years and buying cars they didn't need at the request of GM because GM's sales were so bad. The dealership bent over backwards to help GM, and GM screwed them. The dealership even relocated twice at the request of GM.

I was listening to WTOP radio and the interviewed people saying "American car companies need to stop making ugly Junk" and ..."American car companies need to wake up and make reliable cars like Honda or Toyota".

Why are we bailing these car companies out? Just let them die!

 

[Evo]

The American Auto Workers Union.

 

[turbo]

Please don't blame the UAW for the poor engineering and marketing skills of the Big 3. The workers build what they are told to build. The Big 3 NEEDED the UAW to maintain a stable, trained work-force, and centralize bargaining so that they were able to project labor costs years in advance and avoid piecemeal bargaining shop-by-shop. Whenever union contracts came up for renewal, the auto companies hollered and screamed about the "greedy" unions to demonize them with the American public. Don't buy their propaganda - without collective bargaining and stable long-term labor agreements, the Big 3 would have to have drastically changed their business models.

 

[rootX]

The American Auto Workers Union.

I agree too.

I think both Big 3 and its unions need to die.

 

[Cyrus]

Also, I hate Chinese cars as well. Have you seen their latest run of cars? They blatantly stole the design of Bentley and called it the 'geegle'. They also stole Honda, Toyota and others.

China, forever making crap. You should Google a video of their cars under crash test, it's like sitting inside a soda can.

 

[Cyrus]

Please don't blame the UAW for the poor engineering and marketing skills of the Big 3. The workers build what they are told to build. The Big 3 NEEDED the UAW to maintain a stable, trained work-force, and centralize bargaining so that they were able to project labor costs years in advance and avoid piecemeal bargaining shop-by-shop. Whenever union contracts came up for renewal, the auto companies hollered and screamed about the "greedy" unions to demonize them with the American public. Don't buy their propaganda - without collective bargaining and stable long-term labor agreements, the Big 3 would have to have drastically changed their business models.

The woman Senator was from Maine. She was said something like 80%(?) of cars in Maine are from GM, so why is GM closing down all the dealers there.

It's because eventually GM wants to replace the private dealerships with dealerships owned by GM itself, and not by a small business owner.

 

[turbo]

The woman Senator was from Maine. She was said something like 80%(?) of cars in Maine are from GM, so why is GM closing down all the dealers there.

It's because eventually GM wants to replace the private dealerships with dealerships owned by GM itself, and not by a small business owner.

Can you link to the program? It was either Olympia Snowe or Susan Collins (both ME-GOP). I know the brothers who own the biggest GM dealerships in central Maine (they are about my age), and they were certainly not effected, apart from the dissolution of Pontiac. In fact, they are currently displaying a bug-ugly Pontiac "sports car" at their Ford dealership next to a Roush Mustang.

 

[russ_watters]

The shut down dealerships and ruined those buissness owners lives...

What, precisely, were they supposed to do?

 

[Cyrus]

Can you link to the program? It was either Olympia Snowe or Susan Collins (both ME-GOP). I know the brothers who own the biggest GM dealerships in central Maine (they are about my age), and they were certainly not effected, apart from the dissolution of Pontiac. In fact, they are currently displaying a bug-ugly Pontiac "sports car" at their Ford dealership next to a Roush Mustang.

I don't know I was in the car driving. It was CSPAN radio on Tuesday.

 

[Topher925]

the Big 3 would have to have drastically changed their business models.

Uh...yeah? That's kinda what they needed to do all along. The UAW is a huge problem for the Big 3 and the reason for a large source of their debt. I personally know people who have made six figures just pushing some buttons in a factory. I'm not kidding. The pensions alone cost billions.

General Motors UAW retirement plan paid $4.9 billion to 291,000 retirees and surviving spouses in 2006.

UAW spokespeople have roundly condemned the estimate of labor costs in excess of $70 per current worker hour. They assert these figures include the cost of current retiree pension and health benefits. They have done so, however, without marshalling evidence to support their case.

WARNING! This link may cause nausea and upset stomach: http://www.heritage.org/research/economy/wm2162.cfm

Toyota and Honda seem to have no problem producing cars with non-union workers. Because of this they can produce a higher quality product for lower cost.

However, all the problems of the Big 3 aren't because of the UAW. The companies are just poorly managed. You can't argue about it. I've worked for several auto suppliers (I live in metro detroit) and at least once a day you heard something that made you just say "WTF!" out loud. So why buy American? Well, not all the cars are bad. There's actually a couple I really like and I think are great cars and would not hesitate buying. I drive a Honda just because I got it from a family member.

What, precisely, were they supposed to do?

Exactly. You can't fix an omlette without breaking some eggs. Tough times call for tough measures.

 

[russ_watters]

Please don't blame the UAW for the poor engineering and marketing skills of the Big 3. The workers build what they are told to build.

Of course that's true, but building bad cars is only half of the problem: people would still buy them if they were cost competitive, but they aren't, because...

The Big 3 NEEDED the UAW to maintain a stable, trained work-force, and centralize bargaining so that they were able to project labor costs years in advance and avoid piecemeal bargaining shop-by-shop. Whenever union contracts came up for renewal, the auto companies hollered and screamed about the "greedy" unions to demonize them with the American public. Don't buy their propaganda - without collective bargaining and stable long-term labor agreements, the Big 3 would have to have drastically changed their business models.

None of that is true. The cost added to American cars due to the strength of the labor unions is somewhere on the order of $1500 per car. For a $20,000 sedan, that's a hole that is impossible to recover from when trying to compete with foreign cars. And keep in mind: that includes foreign cars made in the US. Toyota doesn't have this problem. Not only are the cars better, but they are cheaper due to their lower labor costs and higher worker productivity.

 

[Moonbear]

Keep in mind that it's only 2 of the big 3 that are getting bailouts. Ford may be struggling, but they're limping along under their own steam and have managed to plan to keep themselves afloat without government bailouts. I see no reason not to let the other two sink. Other manufacturers with cars people actually want to buy can gradually fill in the market and hire on the displaced workers, but the dead weight needs to be cleaned out first to make room.

 

[mgb_phys]

It's because eventually GM wants to replace the private dealerships with dealerships owned by GM itself, and not by a small business owner.

Or you could abandon the whole system and give the consumer some choice.
http://www.economist.com/science/PrinterFriendly.cfm?story_id=13721101

 

[turbo]

Keep in mind that it's only 2 of the big 3 that are getting bailouts. Ford may be struggling, but they're limping along under their own steam and have managed to plan to keep themselves afloat without government bailouts. I see no reason not to let the other two sink. Other manufacturers with cars people actually want to buy can gradually fill in the market and hire on the displaced workers, but the dead weight needs to be cleaned out first to make room.

This is a good point. Remember that when Ford closed its Marysville Ohio plant, they claimed that the workforce was unproductive and the plant was outmoded. Honda bought the plant, re-tooled, hired back most of the work-force, and started producing the Accord. The Accord was the car with the highest percentage of American-made parts, and the highest quality, and quickly became the largest-selling car model (of any manufacturer) in the US. Ford eventually sold more units of the Taurus, but only by selling them to their wholly-owned subsidiary (Ford Leasing) and farming them out to rental fleets.

Make cars that Americans want, and engineer them to last, and you will succeed. The Big 3 never figured on that. They booked on "planned obsolescence" and the tendency for consumers in a healthy economy to trade-in every few years. Wrong.

 

[Cyrus]

What, precisely, were they supposed to do?

I don't have access to their books, so I'm not going to give you an answer. However, did you notice what I said earlier. How the senator was saying how they are doing this so they can go back later and put in GM dealerships owned by GM and not by a private small business that is licensed under the name GM.

 

[JasonRox]

Oh man, I wanted GM to die so badly. I was hoping it was going to happen soon and then we bail them anyone.

Any company that couldn't sell cars during an economic boom deserves to die, hence GM.

 

[Evo]

I don't have access to their books, so I'm not going to give you an answer. However, did you notice what I said earlier. How the senator was saying how they are doing this so they can go back later and put in GM dealerships owned by GM and not by a private small business that is licensed under the name GM.

That makes financial sense, cut out the middle man and cut out the loss of profit for paying someone to sell your cars. It could mean much lower costs for buyers.

 

[Cyrus]

That makes financial sense, cut out the middle man and cut out the loss of profit for paying someone to sell your cars. It could mean much lower costs for buyers.

It's also very unethical to shut down peoples dealerships who paid millions of dollars to own them because they can't run their own company and were supported by said dealerships. They should shut down their own damn dealerships. They just vaporized peoples life savings.

 

[FredGarvin]

There was a good article in the Detroit Free Press about John DeLaureian and the book he wrote back in the early '70s. He called it dead nuts on. He knew exactly what was wrong with GM back then.

http://www.freep.com/article/20090604/COL06/906040477/1081/What+would+DeLorean+say?

 

[russ_watters]

It's also very unethical to shut down peoples dealerships who paid millions of dollars to own them because they can't run their own company and were supported by said dealerships. They should shut down their own damn dealerships. They just vaporized peoples life savings.

It is certainly bad management that led to this, but I don't see how it can be considered inethical.

 

[russ_watters]

Or you could abandon the whole system and give the consumer some choice.
http://www.economist.com/science/PrinterFriendly.cfm?story_id=13721101

Very good article and is part of my point to cyrus: the business situation is changing and it isn't just affecting the car companies directly, it is affecting the way the dealers themselves need to do business. Their business model is obsolte and one way or another, dealerships are going to change or just plain go away.

I bought my Mazda 6 in 2004, from a dealer 40 miles away. I went to the nearest dealership to test drive it, then emailed every dealership in about a 50 mile radius, asking for quotes. I then pitted the best two offers against each other and selected the winner. The whole process was painless and fast.

I gave that dealership who gave me a test drive the extra courtesy of a phone call, but they refused to give me a quote: they wanted me to come in so they could do a hard sale and I refused. If they don't adapt to the changing way cars are sold, they will die too.

From the article:

What few dealers seem to have grasped is that making and selling cars has become a commodity business. The Ford Focus in a dealer’s showroom in Santa Monica is exactly the same as the one at a Ford dealership in Tallahassee. Why would anyone pay more for one than the other? No one would be so daft when buying a computer. Nowadays car buyers realize they should not have to endure variable prices. But dealers remain convinced that, by keeping everyone in the dark about actual prices, they can still squeeze more profit out of each sale—and are prepared to do so even if it makes the experience for the customer as painful as pulling teeth...

When cars can be built to a customer’s specification, dealers need to take a different approach to selling. When customers can go a stage further and research a car’s specifications and actual cost using the internet—the second of the technological disruptions—you have to wonder what is left for dealers to do. Most Americans in the market for a new car these days go to websites of independent sources of car facts, such as Kelley Blue Book and Edmunds, or to the manufacturers’ own websites. There, they can select a model, colour combination, accessories and other options—and, in some cases, even take a virtual test-drive.

Further clicks reveal the price the dealer paid for the desired vehicle. Armed with this knowledge, all the customer really needs is for someone to take the order. For that, you do not need a salesman making $600 in commission—nor, indeed, a franchised dealership sitting on one of the most expensive plots in town and passing on its overheads.

 

[Cyrus]

I love how one of the bigwigs at Chevy was on Charlie Rose a while back talking about how he flies his helicopter to work every day and does not believe in global warming.

Who flies a helicopter to work every day. Not even the president of the united states.

 

[getitright]

The woman Senator was from Maine. She was said something like 80%(?) of cars in Maine are from GM, so why is GM closing down all the dealers there.

It's because eventually GM wants to replace the private dealerships with dealerships owned by GM itself, and not by a small business owner.

Right on this one. Now that the government owns the company majority the smart move is to file bankruptcy, renegotiate all labor and supplier deals and open more coorporate shops. Bigger margin coming in and wait out the change in Washington in 2012.

 

[Evo]

I love how one of the bigwigs at Chevy was on Charlie Rose a while back talking about how he flies his helicopter to work every day and does not believe in global warming.

Who flies a helicopter to work every day. Not even the president of the united states.

Actually, a lot of my old neighbors did. In the next subdivision, all homes had their own private heliopads. In another subdivision, they had their own landing strip and each home had a hanger for their private plane.

My favorite restaurant near my house had a heliopad for the people I lived near to drop in for dinner. When you live in a place like Houston, TX with no mass transit and commutes exceeding two hours one way, if you can afford it, a helicopter makes sense, most skyscrapers have heliopads.

One of my neighbors was Red Adair.

 

[Cyrus]

Actually, a lot of my old neighbors did. In the next subdivision, all homes had their own private heliopads. In another subdivision, they had their own landing strip and each home had a hanger for their private plane.

My favorite restaurant near my house had a heliopad for the people I lived near to drop in for dinner. When you live in a place like Houston, TX with no mass transit and commutes exceeding two hours one way, if you can afford it, a helicopter makes sense, most skyscrapers have heliopads.

One of my neighbors was Red Adair.

I think they should just buy a house closer to work and stop waisting company money.

 

[rootX]

I think they should just buy a house closer to work and stop waisting company money.

They can waste their income in any way they want but they shouldn't be using company resources. But then if company allows them to abuse the resources then its the company's fault.

 

[Cyrus]

They can waste their income in any way they want but they shouldn't be using company resources. But then if company allows them to abuse the resources then its the company's fault.

They shouldn't get paid that amount. There is a point where you get paid too much for your own good.

 

[Evo]

They shouldn't get paid that amount. There is a point where you get paid too much for your own good.

They owned their companies. No company without them. And time was money.

RedAdir

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Adair

 

[getitright]

I'll take the bad guy stance here and I'm sure Cyrus will confirm this. The best cars of my youth were as easy to work on as a lawnmower and could be rebuilt in a day with a couple of friends so as not to stand your date up at 7pm... and they were all American. We started putting too much crud on them and during the late 80's and 90's we lost site of what matters to a car buyer. I can prove my point to you if you had a Chrysler K car. Now, we can't do our own maintenance and don't understand what's going on in our own cars.

The car company that comes out on top will be the one to make a car that can be maintained in a basic manner by its' buyers (should they choose to) and not a mechanically engineered obsolecence marvel.

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

The car company that comes out on top will be the one to make a car that can be maintained in a basic manner by its' buyers (should they choose to) and not a mechanically engineered obsolecence marvel.

I don't think that many people are really very interested in working on their cars. Here in CA we buy lots of cars and the vast majority of people wouldn't even be able to figure out how to check their oil on their own. When I was in high school auto shop class was not something even the average male student took.

 

[getitright]

I don't think that many people are really very interested in working on their cars. Here in CA we buy lots of cars and the vast majority of people wouldn't even be able to figure out how to check their oil on their own. When I was in high school auto shop class was not something even the average male student took.

That's a sad commentary on all students. In classes we teach them to write checks, balance a checkbook, buy stocks and invent new things but we lost the basics. And we let them make things that can't be fixed and instead just buy a new one. That's just sad.

 

[Cyrus]

That's a sad commentary on all students. In classes we teach them to write checks, balance a checkbook, buy stocks and invent new things but we lost the basics. And we let them make things that can't be fixed and instead just buy a new one. That's just sad.

I never learned how to write a check in school. I did have to read books like Shakespeare, which I hated. I don't think that's the kind of book for high school kids. I don't know why they would have us read that.

 

[getitright]

Shakespeare is a little deep for anyone but I think they had a point. Social Economics had its point too. I just think we need to get away from a use it and throw it away society and back to the time when most of us knew how to fix a roof leak, worn brakes, etc.

 

[Argentum Vulpes]

I'll take the bad guy stance here and I'm sure Cyrus will confirm this. The best cars of my youth were as easy to work on as a lawnmower and could be rebuilt in a day with a couple of friends so as not to stand your date up at 7pm... and they were all American. We started putting too much crud on them and during the late 80's and 90's we lost site of what matters to a car buyer. I can prove my point to you if you had a Chrysler K car. Now, we can't do our own maintenance and don't understand what's going on in our own cars.

The car company that comes out on top will be the one to make a car that can be maintained in a basic manner by its' buyers (should they choose to) and not a mechanically engineered obsolecence marvel.

That is a good idea in practice. Hell I have a car that I can and do all of the mechanical work on it with a good wrench set, some screw drivers, a basic multi meter, a grease gun, a timing light, shop manual, and a torque wrench.

But for this to happen I need to give up things like ABS, traction control, air bag systems, power/performance with any form of good fuel economy, not messing with a choke, messing with the carb and timing it almost every 6 months, and less emissions.

Yes their might be a bunch of tecno crud my 07 Prius, but it is a hell of a lot better in many aspects then my 65 Cuda.

 

[getitright]

That is a good idea in practice. Hell I have a car that I can and do all of the mechanical work on it with a good wrench set, some screw drivers, a basic multi meter, a grease gun, a timing light, shop manual, and a torque wrench.

But for this to happen I need to give up things like ABS, traction control, air bag systems, power/performance with any form of good fuel economy, not messing with a choke, messing with the carb and timing it almost every 6 months, and less emissions.

Yes their might be a bunch of tecno crud my 07 Prius, but it is a hell of a lot better in many aspects then my 65 Cuda.

I bet you feel a lot better driving that Plymouth Barracuda than the Prius? Huh? Is ther a 340 in that?

It only takes a harness and computer to diagnose your car but it adds to the stuff you have to get to keep it up.