Please no Bush-bashing, America bashing

[El Hombre Invisible]

...i would be able to carrying reading the smut in the tabloids...

There's your answer then. What would even compel you to read the British tabloids in the first place if not brainwashing?

 

[Joel]

Of course, but I think it is much more present in popular layers of the population than in the heads of intellectuals.

Absolutely, I also think education and public visibility tends to weed out anti-x sentiments. However, I think all myths has some support in every layer of our society, they are just more or less frequent or more or less visible. For example, there was a few years ago a heated debate in the Swedish press about anti-semitism, where some prominent intellectuals where accused. (Note the difference between an intellectual, as in someone visible with a lot of opinions, and a researcher in his own field).

Here's an old article http://www.rfi.fr/actufr/articles/042/article_22297.asp from 2003.

I don't know a word french.

Essentially it says that although most people take Bush as principal responsible for the Iraqi situation, some negative feelings are projected towards the American population in general.
The question was: do you have a FAVORABLE opinion of the US, and, this gave, in France: 43% favorable ; in Germany: 45% favorable, in Spain 38% favorable.
However, in the US, a favorable opinion of France dropped from 79% to 28% before and after the Iraqi dispute, while a favorable opinion of Germany dropped from 83% to 44%.

That said, not having a favorable opinion does not necessary imply an anti-X feeling.

cheers,
Patrick.

That's an interesting poll, and I agree that unfavorable opinions do not necessarily imply anti-x feelings. I think that anti-x sentiments are rooted much deeper and that they are not born out of single political events. However certain political events may trigger already existing, altough 'sleeping' anti-x feelings, such as MAY have been the case with the Iraq war(s) and anti-americanism, or the creation of Israel and anti-semitism.

To get some less flamatory background material, I did search and came up with a bunch of references. Here is a selected few:

http://www.extenza-eps.com/extenza/loadHTML?objectIDValue=51582&type=abstract

http://www.extenza-eps.com/extenza/loadHTML?objectIDValue=51588&type=abstract

http://www-hoover.stanford.edu/publications/books/antiamer.html

So, I guess I'm only saying the same thing as the French intellectuals; watch out for anti-americanism, it lurks in many places. *Jaws music*


Joel

 

[Smurf]

However certain political events may trigger already existing, altough 'sleeping' anti-x feelings, such as MAY have been the case with the Iraq war(s) and anti-americanism, or the creation of Israel and anti-semitism.

That may be the most ridiculous thing I've heard all day (granted it's just started, but still). Yes, Anti-Americanism is an alien technology that has been 'sleeping' since it's deployment many years ago and is only now emerging to destroy the world!

 

[Joel]

No, Joel, the TITLE of the thread was anti-Americanism. The OP contained a link to an article that was anti-European from the get go. It particularly focused on the French. Furthermore we're discussing the meaning of racism in general and how it compares to being 'anti' a nation or disliking a nation, so has value when talking about both anti-Americanism and anti-Europeanism. This is essentially a debate on ethics and semantics. So in relation to the OP, we're not being as irrelevant as you think.

Quite right, as I already said in my response to Vanesch, I the anti-european sentiment in the article was rightfully pointed out. What I disagree about, is that anti-anti sentiments are discussed in the same thread, but I think I've already said that a couple of times.

I see this debate as two folded: First, as theoretical discussion of anti-x sentiments, where questions like, "what is prejudice?", are relevant. And second, as the unique historical myths, associated with each type of anti-x sentiment that are part of the cognitive component of prejudice.

I found a an interesting article about anti-europeanism, but I better post it in a separate thread. Maybe the discussion about anti-europeanism could move there?

Ps. And I also want to appologise again for my harash words. I regret being so blunt.

 

[Art]

That may be the most ridiculous thing I've heard all day (granted it's just started, but still). Yes, Anti-Americanism is an alien technology that has been 'sleeping' since it's deployment many years ago and is only now emerging to destroy the world!

I fully agree, that is nonsense! In fact I think it is the other way around. For many years europeans were inordinately fond of America and it's culture.
Certainly in the English speaking parts of europe we were raised on a diet of thoroughly enjoyable american comics and films and any homegrown programs we saw waxed lyrical on how well America had done since becoming an independent state.
If anything our deep-rooted liking of America and all things american kept us too quiet for too long about the dangers and threats inherent in America's expansionist policy.

 

[Joel]

That may be the most ridiculous thing I've heard all day (granted it's just started, but still). Yes, Anti-Americanism is an alien technology that has been 'sleeping' since it's deployment many years ago and is only now emerging to destroy the world!

Yay! I got your attention! I tried to use the citation marks to point out that I was using a figure of speech. A more factual way of putting it would be, "common parts of various myths (that are components of prejudice) can be found through history and they can be more or less salient, depending on, for example, real-political circumstances." If you're interested, Ruppert Brown has written a good introduction to a socialpsychological approach to prejudice, called (surprise!) Prejudice.

 

[El Hombre Invisible]

I fully agree, that is nonsense! In fact I think it is the other way around. For many years europeans were inordinately fond of America and it's culture.
Certainly in the English speaking parts of europe we were raised on a diet of thoroughly enjoyable american comics and films and any homegrown programs we saw waxed lyrical on how well America had done since becoming an independent state.
If anything our deep-rooted liking of America and all things american kept us too quiet for too long about the dangers and threats inherent in America's expansionist policy.

I agree. In the run-up to and start of the Iraq war, the targets of objection were fairly well spread between Bush, Blair and the other leaders of the coalition. This was most pronounced in Spain. While the public protests in New York and London were impressive, the Spanish seemed the most dedicated. Endless posters, graffiti and people wearing t-shirts adorning the slogan: "Bush, Blair, Aznar - no a guerra" (or whatever the spanish is for 'no war' - I don't speak the tongue and haven't seen that slogan for a while) did suggest a pecking order of blame, but certainly no racist sentiment aimed at a particular country. Indeed, the leaders alone were seen as to blame. Now America does seem to be the sole target - not even Bush alone. Quite possibly this has something to do with the figure 52%?

 

[Joel]

Regarding prejudice and real-political circumstances:

http://gpi.sagepub.com/cgi/content/refs/7/3/221

Two broad distal causes of prejudice are past history of intergroup contact and general political predispositions. Two studies investigate the extent to which these effects are mediated by emotions directed at the outgroup, as proposed by Intergroup Emotions Theory (Smith, 1993). In both studies, past intergroup contact and Social Dominance Orientation predict prejudice. as measured either by a feeling thermometer or the Modern Racism Scale. Furthermore, for both studies these effects are significantly mediated by intergroup emotions, above and beyond measures of stereotypes (stereotype endorsement in Study 1 and stereotype knowledge in Study 2) that were entered as alternative potential mediators. Stereotype endorsement also plays a significant mediational role in one case. Increased attention to the role of emotions in intergroup relations, including in the mediation of such powerful and well-known effects as those of intergroup contact and political predispositions, appears to be warranted.

Regarding anti-americanism in Europe before and after the second Iraq war broke out, I disagree in the sense that it was clearly america who took the initiative and this was in my opinion understood by those opposing the war as well. The critique against Uk and Spain was, "Do not support the war", while the critique against USA was, "Do not suggest a war". Furthermore I've seen many demonstrations where Bush and America where compared to Hitler and Nazi germany, which in my opinion can not be called 'rational critique' even with good imagination.

 

[Smurf]

I fully agree, that is nonsense! In fact I think it is the other way around. For many years europeans were inordinately fond of America and it's culture.
Certainly in the English speaking parts of europe we were raised on a diet of thoroughly enjoyable american comics and films and any homegrown programs we saw waxed lyrical on how well America had done since becoming an independent state.
If anything our deep-rooted liking of America and all things american kept us too quiet for too long about the dangers and threats inherent in America's expansionist policy.

Yeah, I remember when I first moved to France before all this Bush crap started. People there were very fond of America. Not that they're negative and prejudiced towards America now, but the old fascination seems to have disappeared somewhere in all the politics.

 

[Evo]

Yeah, I remember when I first moved to France before all this Bush crap started. People there were very fond of America. Not that they're negative and prejudiced towards America now, but the old fascination seems to have disappeared somewhere in all the politics.

I guess no one remembers France during the Nixon era when they hated Americans. Sentiments go back and forth. But most Europeans held that sentiment then.

 

[Smurf]

I guess no one remembers France during the Nixon era when they hated Americans. Sentiments go back and forth. But most Europeans held that sentiment then.

Hated Americans or hated Nixon and his government?

 

[Evo]

Hated Americans or hated Nixon and his government?

I traveled there and had to conceal the fact that I was American. The masses cannot seem to separate the hatred toward a government, or leader or the people. It's sad, but for the majority, it's true.

 

[Art]

I traveled there and had to conceal the fact that I was American. The masses cannot seem to separate the hatred toward a government, or leader or the people. It's sad, but for the majority, it's true.

What was it Nixon did to alienate the French? I thought the major issues of his tenure were all domestic with social unrest in the USA? In fact didn't he actually revive US - French relations following his meeting with French President de Gaulle in Mar '69 shortly after his election in '68?

 

[Evo]

What was it Nixon did to alienate the French? I thought the major issues of his tenure were domestic with social unrest in the USA? In fact didn't he revive US - French relations following his meeting with French President de Gaulle in Mar '69 shortly after his election in '68?

The Viet Nam war. Anti-American sentiment was at an all time high in the early 70's.

 

[quetzalcoatl9]

What was it Nixon did to alienate the French? I thought the major issues of his tenure were all domestic with social unrest in the USA? In fact didn't he actually revive US - French relations following his meeting with French President de Gaulle in Mar '69 shortly after his election in '68?

actually, the love-hate relationship between the French and the USA goes back several hundred years, all the way to the formation of the USA.

The US has screwed over France many times, and France has screwed over the US many times. (Notable examples: US declaring neutrality when the French went to war with the British, the French undermining post-WWII US interests in Asia leading to Vietnam, etc.)

 

[Art]

The Viet Nam war. Anti-American sentiment was at an all time high in the early 70's.

I'm not contradicting you but I am surprised the French were protesting over American involvement in Vietnam seeing as how the Americans originally went there to help the French in their efforts to maintain French control of the territory as part of the larger French Indochina. As far back as 1950 the US was shouldering half the cost of France's military expenditure in Vietnam.
The shock at home following France's ignoble defeat at the battle of Dien Bien Phu at the hands of the communist forces led shortly afterward to a full scale French withdrawal after 7 years of war leaving the US to spearhead the military campaign against the Viet Minh (later Viet Cong) forces.
Thus it seems very hypocritical of the French to criticize a war which they themselves started.
No wonder most members of the EU doesn't trust them

 

[selfAdjoint]

The "Events of 1968" were not carried out by the conservative French, who might have responded to these considerations, but by the students and leftists, who were responding to the bombing of Cambodia.

 

[Art]

The "Events of 1968" were not carried out by the conservative French, who might have responded to these considerations, but by the students and leftists, who were responding to the bombing of Cambodia.

I don't believe Vietnam played a very big role in the "Events of 68", this was certainly one of the things the Paris students demonstrated about initially but the major student led protests (the Movement of March 22nd) had a far greater domestic agenda than protesting over American actions in Vietnam. For example some of their key complaints were overcrowding at the universities, the lowering of entrance exam stds and dormitory rules. Following fights with the police and numerous arrests the unrest spread to unions and other left wing groups resulting in numerous strikes and further fighting. The common purpose then though was simply to bring down de Gaulle's right wing gov't.
When de Gaulle called an election to gain a fresh mandate the French elecorate voted overwhelmingly for the right wing parties increasing their share of parliamentary seats massively to 385 out of a total of 487.

 

[Evo]

I'm not contradicting you but I am surprised the French were protesting over American involvement in Vietnam seeing as how the Americans originally went there to help the French in their efforts to maintain French control of the territory as part of the larger French Indochina. As far back as 1950 the US was shouldering half the cost of France's military expenditure in Vietnam.
The shock at home following France's ignoble defeat at the battle of Dien Bien Phu at the hands of the communist forces led shortly afterward to a full scale French withdrawal after 7 years of war leaving the US to spearhead the military campaign against the Viet Minh (later Viet Cong) forces.
Thus it seems very hypocritical of the French to criticize a war which they themselves started.
No wonder most members of the EU doesn't trust them

The French had a strong antiwar movement. I remember seeing graffiti scribbled on walls "Nixon Assassin". "Kill Nixon" American flags being burned, effigies of Nixon being burned. I can still sing the little song that two puppets on tv were singing "Kissinger, Le Duc Tho" "Kissinger, Le Duc Tho" and the puppets dancing around, really bizarre.

You also missed were I specifically said early 70's.

 

[El Hombre Invisible]

Better they burn flags than live sheep.

 

[Joel]

Is osmeone burning live sheeps?

 

[Art]

Is osmeone burning live sheeps?

The French set fire to British trucks exporting sheep to France.

 

[El Hombre Invisible]

The French set fire to British trucks exporting sheep to France.

Some French farmers and political activists, that is. I'm sure the French were as disturbed by it as we were. At least, I hope so, or else you can shove a freedom fry up my a--- and call me Russ.

 

[Art]

Some French farmers and political activists, that is. I'm sure the French were as disturbed by it as we were. At least, I hope so, or else you can shove a freedom fry up my a--- and call me Russ.

I thought it was the French prosititutes. They thought their livelihoods were being threatened by the sudden influx of the Welsh farmers' mistresses.

 

[Art]

The French had a strong antiwar movement. I remember seeing graffiti scribbled on walls "Nixon Assassin". "Kill Nixon" American flags being burned, effigies of Nixon being burned. I can still sing the little song that two puppets on tv were singing "Kissinger, Le Duc Tho" "Kissinger, Le Duc Tho" and the puppets dancing around, really bizarre.

I wasn't disagreeing I just said it was hypocritical of them given their 100 year military occupation of Vietnam

You also missed were I specifically said early 70's.

? Are you referring to my response to selfAdjoint's post? My reply there was specific to his reference to the 'Events of '68'

 

[chound]

Deviating from topic: I'm like bored of people bashing America(though it is the right thing to do LOL) What other countries do u like to bash. Or shall we bash all the countries in alphabetical order?

 

[El Hombre Invisible]

Deviating from topic: I'm like bored of people bashing America(though it is the right thing to do LOL) What other countries do u like to bash. Or shall we bash all the countries in alphabetical order?

Aren't you the person who posted the long list of wind-ups about Americans in the 'My view of USA' thread? If so, start with yourself - start an 'India-bashing' thread.

 

[Art]

Aren't you the person who posted the long list of wind-ups about Americans in the 'My view of USA' thread? If so, start with yourself - start an 'India-bashing' thread.

To get the ball rolling how about a thread on 'who owns the Kashmir region'

 

[chound]

Dude like 'My view of USA' wuznt an America bashing thread. Okay so like I'm going to be a Prime Minister of India in the future so I'll see what are all the complaints u have of India. Please make all the bashes relevant to present time.

 

[Daminc]

We could try for an 'insult' to every country?

English: Stuck up b*stards
Welsh: Sheep-sh*ggers (that's me)
Scottish: Drunken head-bangers
Irish: Stupid
French: Smelly cowards
Germans: Nazi's
Spanish: Peacocks
Italian: Posers
Russian: KGB (say no more)
China: xenophobic communist pigs
America: most of the above (apart from the sheep because that's for us Welsh and the Australians)

I can't think of an insult for Canadians though, can someone help me out?

 

[Evo]

I wasn't disagreeing I just said it was hypocritical of them given their 100 year military occupation of Vietnam

That would mean they would actually have to understand the history behind what they're protesting, you're asking too much.

? Are you referring to my response to selfAdjoint's post? My reply there was specific to his reference to the 'Events of '68'

Oooops, sorry.

 

[Evo]

We could try for an 'insult' to every country?

English: Stuck up b*stards
Welsh: Sheep-sh*ggers (that's me)
Scottish: Drunken head-bangers
Irish: Stupid
French: Smelly cowards
Germans: Nazi's
Spanish: Peacocks
Italian: Posers
Russian: KGB (say no ore)
China: xenophobic communist pigs
America: most of the above (apart from the sheep because that's for us Welsh and the Australians)

I can't think of an insult for Canadians though, can someone help me out?

I know there are tons, it's too early in the morning though.

 

[Loren Booda]

Try "hosers"?

 

[wolram]

This thread is just so much COBBLERS, Brits complain about the weather more
than our relations with the Yanks, talk about tittle tattle, you have your worries
we have ours, Aint that enough?

 

[wolram]

By EVO

I can't think of an insult for Canadians though, can someone help me out?

MOUNTED.