Please support our troops in Iraq

[hitssquad]

http://www.ogrish.com/archives/dog_shooting_in_iraq_for_fun_Mar_16_2005.html

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March 16, 2005

Dog Shooting in Iraq for "Fun"

NOTE: Ogrish.com opposes behavior such as that below. We have provided the US military and animal organisation PETA details regarding the sender of this submission.

"Hi my name is M. D. formaly of A TRP 1-10 CAV 4ID and while in Iraq we had a sport of killing dogs whenever the Iraqis weren't shooting us. So when I shot this one at about 50 yards with my M4 and it ran yelping to lower ground, we had to finish it so my friends and I went to it and started shooting it. I ve never seen a dog take as many shots to the head at least 4 as this one did and then after we thought it was dead we dug a hole and when I picked it up with the shovel it came back to life, so we shot it a couple more times...its pretty funny."
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[misskitty]

What are we supposed to be discussing in this thread?

 

[SOS2008]

http://www.ogrish.com/archives/dog_shooting_in_iraq_for_fun_Mar_16_2005.htmlDog Shooting in Iraq for "Fun"[/b]

War is an ugly thing. This behavior is referred to a desensitization, and is common to law enforcement, and even medical (especially ER) work, etc. I'm not condoning or excusing this, but let's understand that soldiers aren't trained to defend our nation by being "sensitive" -- though I certainly don't excuse human rights violations per earlier threads on Guantanamo or Abu Ghraib for any reason.

Support the troops? As stated before, I also am not in favor of the mindless ribbons all over people's vehicles, and the God Bless America gear is down-right against separation of church and state.

I support the troops by not supporting unnecessary war. I support our country by supporting preservation of democracy right here at home.

 

[misskitty]

http://www.ogrish.com/archives/dog_shooting_in_iraq_for_fun_Mar_16_2005.html

--
March 16, 2005

Dog Shooting in Iraq for "Fun"

NOTE: Ogrish.com opposes behavior such as that below. We have provided the US military and animal organisation PETA details regarding the sender of this submission.

"Hi my name is M. D. formaly of A TRP 1-10 CAV 4ID and while in Iraq we had a sport of killing dogs whenever the Iraqis weren't shooting us. So when I shot this one at about 50 yards with my M4 and it ran yelping to lower ground, we had to finish it so my friends and I went to it and started shooting it. I ve never seen a dog take as many shots to the head at least 4 as this one did and then after we thought it was dead we dug a hole and when I picked it up with the shovel it came back to life, so we shot it a couple more times...its pretty funny."
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That is utterly dispicable and disgusting.

 

[misskitty]

Where is your "support the troops" supposed to come in here?

 

[Pengwuino]

and the God Bless America gear is down-right against separation of church and state.

I

How is wal-mart selling a t-shirt that says god bless america in violation of the ficticious separation of church and state? Remember, church and state state state.

 

[Pengwuino]

That is utterly dispicable and disgusting.

And possibly untrue. Anyone know if that even looks like the climate of Iraq or the dogs there? And this can't be very wide-spread behavior if its even true at all. You don't go around discharging your weapon in a warzone at random times. Might as well ask the enemy to find you.

 

[brewnog]

Anyone know if that even looks like the climate of Iraq or the dogs there?

I remember a guy I know telling me that "Basra is hell, it's just sand and dogs". He was a Royal Commando Signaller, posted in Basra for 6 months last year. So, I asked him to look at the video and he says it looks pretty typical of Iraqi terrain, but supposed it could be a thousand other places as well.

 

[Pengwuino]

Well if its possible then probably is.

 

[Integral]

Don't you think it would be a violation of rights for who ever is making the God bless America goods, if they were somehow prohibited from selling them?
Your only recourse is not to give them your money, I don't.

As for the OP, anyone who has ever spent much time around teenagers and guns will have no problem believing that video. There must be a bunch of dogs on the loose and one could suppose that they must be making a nuisance of themselves to suffer such a fate. In general excess of anything will breed contempt.

 

[SK]

And possibly untrue. Anyone know if that even looks like the climate of Iraq or the dogs there? And this can't be very wide-spread behavior if its even true at all. You don't go around discharging your weapon in a warzone at random times. Might as well ask the enemy to find you.

There´s green places, especially in northern iraq. The video looks real to me, soldiers under/after combat stress sometimes tend to do stupid and violent things. Discharging the weapon when you´re out of the fence shouldn´t be that much of a problem, that´s what it´s for after all. Firing warning shots and stuff is so common that there are probably not too many questions asked.
While iraq is a warzone of sorts, it´s not like the insurgents would have to hear gunshots to find US soldiers. The US forces operate checkpoints, they have to show presence and stuff, so firing at dogs won´t make a difference.
Another example of less than ideal behaviour:
http://www.combatreform.com/damfnonroadblockiniraq.wmv

 

[SOS2008]

Don't you think it would be a violation of rights for who ever is making the God bless America goods, if they were somehow prohibited from selling them? Your only recourse is not to give them your money, I don't.

Agreed. It is their freedom of speech. The KKK has freedom of speech too, but it doesn't mean their message of racism is a good thing. The removal of separation of church and state is what I oppose.

As for the OP, anyone who has ever spent much time around teenagers and guns will have no problem believing that video. There must be a bunch of dogs on the loose and one could suppose that they must be making a nuisance of themselves to suffer such a fate. In general excess of anything will breed contempt.

I thought this as well. Most of these soldiers are very young, and probably lack emotional maturity to deal with most of what they are exposed to, and most boys could probably admit to shooting birds or what have you with bee-bee guns, etc.

 

[misskitty]

Even if it is untrue, that doesn't make it any less nasty.

 

[Moonbear]

The removal of separation of church and state is what I oppose.

It's the separation of church and state that allows them to be sold. If people believe in some god and/or religion and wish to express that belief, they are free to do so without repercussions from the government. Likewise, if you do not share that belief, nobody is requiring you to display those messages on your person or property.

 

[kat]

umm so what do they do with wild, diseased...stray dogs in Iraq? Can you imagine this country (U.S.) without animal control?

 

[loseyourname]

umm so what do they do with wild, diseased...stray dogs in Iraq?

That's probably about the least of their concerns right now.

 

[kat]

I think...it could be a very great concern and might also explain why soldiers would be shooting roaming dogs.

 

[Dayle Record]

What if Animal Control Officers carried assault weapons, and fired into neighborhoods, if they found dogs off the leash? What if they shot your dog, while driving down your street, and laughed about it, stopping an pumping in a few more rounds? What if they then pointed their weapons at you if you complained, and actually shot you for terrorist activity?

I just see this stuff as gross disrespect of the Iraqi people, much less their dogs, and horrifically narcissistic. I mean really, we would put people in jail for this activity, in Utah. Occasionally there are sad puppy stores where people find a half dozen Black Lab puppies executed and thrown in the trash, because they couldn't be sold. Authorities go after these guys, and one of the big watch phrases, is "If people abuse animals, chances are they are abusing their wives and children too."

If we are going to make the world our neighborhood that we police; then we had better behave impeccably.

 

[Smurf]

It seems to me this is a discipline problem, it doesn't matter if the soldier's are de-sensitized, morality has nothing to do with it, they shouldn't be doing it simply because it will attract attention to them, and lower public support. If it were up to me I would have every soldier who commits an act like this court martialled, make an example of every single one. This kind of behaviour should not be tolerated.

 

[Moonbear]

I think...it could be a very great concern and might also explain why soldiers would be shooting roaming dogs.

Would that explain why a soldier finds it "pretty funny" that after repeatedly shooting the dog, it was still alive as they went to bury it, so they shot it some more? He didn't say they were shooting them to control vicious strays, or sickly animals, he said they made a sport of it.

I have no idea if the story is true, or if this is at all widespread (this could be from a group of guys who would be out making sport of shooting neighborhood cats and dogs back home too, not at all indicative of typical behavior; I suspect that's the most likely situation), but if it is true, it's callous and cruel, not to mention more practical concerns that they are wasting ammo and bringing attention to their position.

 

[SOS2008]

It's the separation of church and state that allows them to be sold. If people believe in some god and/or religion and wish to express that belief, they are free to do so without repercussions from the government. Likewise, if you do not share that belief, nobody is requiring you to display those messages on your person or property.

There may be a misunderstanding of what I'm saying (I'm probably not saying it well). I'm saying I agree they have the right to express what they want (I support freedom of speech). What they want is to remove separation of church and state--an action I don't agree with.

 

[SOS2008]

I have no idea if the story is true, or if this is at all widespread (this could be from a group of guys who would be out making sport of shooting neighborhood cats and dogs back home too, not at all indicative of typical behavior; I suspect that's the most likely situation), but if it is true, it's callous and cruel, not to mention more practical concerns that they are wasting ammo and bringing attention to their position.

It is callous and cruel, and not acceptable. And not to dimmish this point, but other stories of human rights violations are much more disturbing--in that my original thought was what is the intent of breaking this story? I'm not in favor of the war in Iraq, and I'm not in favor of cruelty to animals, but I feel the purpose of this story is to perpetuate a view of atrocities committed by soldiers. Is this really as newsworthy on the spectrum of things?

As a side note, yesterday I was at a charitable event during which it was asked that people donate stuffed animals for soldiers to give to children in Iraq. I was thinking they should donate money to get electricity into the homes of the people in Iraq--I guess I just prioritize differently from other people...

 

[misskitty]

Iraq is a pretty messed up place to be right now. People are trying to find ways to keep themselves amused and their minds off of missing their families and friends back home. Regardless, Moonbear and SOS2008, your both right, its cruel, disgusting and there is absolutly no need for it.

SOS2008, I don't know if this means anything, but I understood what you mean about the separation between church and state. I agree that it shouldn't be removed either, then again everyone else here probably feels the same way. But that may not be, its ok though.

 

[misskitty]

umm so what do they do with wild, diseased...stray dogs in Iraq? Can you imagine this country (U.S.) without animal control?

That would be a pretty scary thing to try and imagine . There are cities, like New York, that have animal problems as it is. Just thinking about it, grosses me out.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Just as with Vietnam we are going to see a whole bunch of really screwed up people coming out of this. War does that to people. Funny, they never mentioned that at the recruiting office.

Be all that you can be? Maybe if you're lucky, but I doubt it. Remember the less fortunate war vets in ten years when they're panhandling or serving jail sentences.

 

[misskitty]

Unfortunately, Ivan's got a point. No one knows why people come out of war the way they do. It might have something to do with the amount of stress they experience in war.

 

[kat]

hmmm, then again..the majority of vietnam vets came out to be dependable, successful and very often top achievers.

 

[kat]

That would be a pretty scary thing to try and imagine . There are cities, like New York, that have animal problems as it is. Just thinking about it, grosses me out.

Well, yes that's exactly my point. The responses to my post don't seem to take into consideration that it's highly possible that these dogs are not the domisticated animals everyone is picturing them to be. Instead, it's quite possible that they are wild, dangerous and more akin to an infestation by rats then pets and abandoned puppies. People do what they need to do to handle the situations they face, sometimes killing animals is neccesary and so..making sport of it for many is the way they deal with it. I can't imagine it would be much different (if there is no animal control and dogs are breeding out of control) then when when people out here in the boonies who raise animals have to go out and shoot rats that are breeding under there barns and kennels. I can't handle killing animals, not even rats but I've heard a heck of a lot of hooting and hollaring when someone tags one of the dangerous rodents.
With all that in mind..this is some random post on a forum or blog with no evidence to back up that it's even an actual event. So you're all foaming at the mouth at someones actions over something that you can't even prove ever happened..it's all hypothetical at the very least.

 

[russ_watters]

Agreed. It is their freedom of speech. The KKK has freedom of speech too, but it doesn't mean their message of racism is a good thing. The removal of separation of church and state is what I oppose.

That doesn't make any sense. You say its their freedom of speech, then say its a removal of separation of church and state. Separation of church and state is about government sanctioned religion. It is irrelevant to freedom of speech.

What they want is to remove separation of church and state--an action I don't agree with.

Could you explain that? I don't see that motive in a t-shirt - from either the buyer or seller.

 

[Moonbear]

Kat, I don't think anyone here is foaming at the mouth over this. We are all well aware you are supportive of the war in Iraq, but it's not necessary to explain away and excuse every behavior of every soldier to support the war. I don't think there is any sentiment in this thread that this is a widespread attitude, but a single bad apple, IF the story is even true, which I think we all realize is unknown; so, we're treating this as a hypothetical scenario.

What I'm responding to is this portion of the quote:

"...and when I picked it up with the shovel it came back to life, so we shot it a couple more times...its pretty funny."

It's the expression of the opinion that it is funny to shoot a dog multiple times and find it's still not dead and continue shooting it more that I object to. In a war zone, it's pretty likely that the dogs wandering the streets are strays or feral, possibly abandoned pets, or maybe pets that people are afraid to walk, so just let loose. It's possible they are freely reproducing and becoming a problem, and even possible that population control is necessary. However, that still doesn't mean anyone should take that job lightly or find it funny. I'm not suggesting they need to run off sobbing after having to kill a dog, just that they shouldn't be laughing and thinking it's funny.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

hmmm, then again..the majority of vietnam vets came out to be dependable, successful and very often top achievers.

Since we had a draft, your statement implies that most of all average young men were top achievers.

Next, I have known many VN vets. Many if not most describe their experiences in VN as nothing short of a nightmare [i.e. the ground troops]. I remember one of your so called top achievers - the owner of a couple of 7-11's in California - who explained to me in great detail how hard it was to return to rules and a normal life. After hosing down entire villages with machine guns, the old neighborhood just didn't seem the same.

Here is some good information.

...As war has become more efficient, the training and conditioning for it have resulted in increased kill ratios. The effectiveness of modern conditioning techniques that make possible killing in combat is irrefutable, and their impact on the modern battlefield is enormous. In addition, if men reflect too deeply upon the enemy's common humanity, they risk being unable to kill. Usually killing in combat is reflexive; the human being becomes a weapon. It is later that the psyche responds. This can be a lifelong process in which the killer attempts to rationalize and accept his actions. This process was described by Elisabeth Kubler-Ross in her research on dying. Grossman contends that, as in dying, killers go through emotional stages to reach acceptance of their actions, including denial, anger, bargaining, and depression. So likewise, he says, do nations. [continued]

http://www.peacemagazine.org/archive/v12n4p26a.htm

 

[BobG]

Kat, I don't think anyone here is foaming at the mouth over this. We are all well aware you are supportive of the war in Iraq, but it's not necessary to explain away and excuse every behavior of every soldier to support the war. I don't think there is any sentiment in this thread that this is a widespread attitude, but a single bad apple, IF the story is even true, which I think we all realize is unknown; so, we're treating this as a hypothetical scenario.

Maybe most of us realize the reliability of the story is unknown and that it's a single anecdote rather than a general description of US troops.

I doubt the motivation of the OP was to rid the military of one bad apple. I also doubt the motivation of the OP was to improve the treatment of dogs in Iraq. The combination of the thread title and article was meant to shock us into realizing that all US military members only join because they love killing and that they don't particularly care who or what they kill, as long as they get to kill.

I put the original post in about the same category as the Swift Boat Ads with the same risks - hitsquad could wind up smelling as bad as the swill he posted.

 

[SOS2008]

That doesn't make any sense. You say its their freedom of speech, then say its a removal of separation of church and state. Separation of church and state is about government sanctioned religion. It is irrelevant to freedom of speech. Could you explain that? I don't see that motive in a t-shirt - from either the buyer or seller.

I'll try this again, though aside from the "Support Our Troops" ribbons with a crucifix center, the topics of freedom of speech and separation of church and state probably should be different threads.

There are several issues in one. First is freedom of speech--the right to express a belief. Then there is the message itself, which others may or may not agree with (and may even be offended by, per the earlier example of the KKK). Then there is the difference between saying something and actually having that something done. For example, I have the right to say I'd like to kill someone. People may be offended if I say that. They have the right to disagree with what I said, but I still have that right to say it. However, what I say and what is done is a different thing. If I kill someone, I will have surpassed my freedom of speech or belief, and would be infringing on another person's rights.

The combination of patriotic and religious symbolism as free speech (God Bless America--I don't recall who brought up the t-shirts) could be what's causing confusion. People have the right to print these up, sell these, buy these, etc. I've only said I don't agree with this message (which is my right), and I definitely don't agree with their belief in removal of separation of church and state--the action they want to do, which would be infringing on other's rights.

I hope this is making sense...

 

[russ_watters]

You're making perfect sense right up until you make the claim that people who would wear such a t-shirt don't support separation of church and state... You're doing nothing to support that claim. What evidence do you have of that?

 

[SOS2008]

You're making perfect sense right up until you make the claim that people who would wear such a t-shirt don't support separation of church and state... You're doing nothing to support that claim. What evidence do you have of that?

I have religious family, associates etc. who I interact with all the time. These people claim they support separation of church and state. The problem is, they don't know/understand what separation of church and state is. It is the freedom of religion AND the freedom from religion, and as you said, it is about government sanctioning. I would be happy to start a new thread on the topic.