The Troops = Bad? (surely killing is wrong)

[Alfi]

I respect and pray for the troops as much as I do for my Garbage man.

I like it. to me, It says a good thing. Respect everyone, regardless of their job.
If you think positive, the 'as much as' can mean a lot.
If you think negative, the 'as much as' can mean a little.

 

[DaveC426913]

I'm curious. The OP had very weak arguments, but suppose he liked Ghandi's philosophy of Pacifism and claimed that the troops were bad because their profession was to kill (regardless of whether it was in offense or defense).

I have my own misgivings about Pacifism, but I'd like to hear your rebuttals and I'll try to defend this position (though I might not do a very good job given that I disagree with it).

Pacifism works if you are directly involved in the altercation.

But if you see an injustice committed elsewhere, and your moral imperative tells you to come to the aid of the oppressed parties, pacifism's effectiveness approaches zero.

 

[mheslep]

Well put.

 

[Count Iblis]

Intervention to help oppressed people only works if you are neutral. Not neutral in the sense of being blind to who is doung the opressonand who is oppressed, of course. Rather, when the problem is solved and you have to set up a system for the long term, that you don't become party to any political conflicts, or are blinded by some ideology.

In case of Iraq, the US was was blinded by the Neo-Con idea of a "democratic Iraq". The minority Sunnis were not able to get their grievances addressed within Iraq's political system. When time for Bush was running out he did intervene by making consessions to the Sunnis and by pressuring the Iraqi government to crack down on Shia militias/death squads who until that time has been operating with the support of the interior ministery.

The US adminstration made propaganda by claiming that "The Surge is working" as if that vindicated the Bush line. The fundamental reason why things were not working until the surge was that the political process was flawed leading to parts of the population supporting militias/insurgents, which then allowed terrorists to exploit the situation.

The reason why the Bush adminstration did not fix the problem at an earlier stage was because in their minds all that they would have to do is make sure that Iraq was democratic and people were voting. Any violence that would occur despite that could then only be due to "terrorists" and they would have to be confronted with violence. The idea that you would have to overrule outcomes reached by the democratic processes in Iraq was taboo, as that would prove wrong the Neo-Con doctrine.

 

[DaveC426913]

Intervention to help oppressed people only works if you are neutral.

Well, not true. It certainly works if you're not neutral, although I suppose then it is more properly known as alliance. Depends on what the desired outcome is.

 

[Ghost803]

I don't necessarily disrespect or dislike garbage men. But I don't just sit there thinking about what great hardworking and brave people they are or some other bull. They get paid to take my trash. And I have little to no interaction with the dude, he might hate his job, be lazy, be peeing on my lawn, I don't know.

Same thing with the military, what we have is an almost mercenary force. Many are in it because of the financial benefit and because it was their last option. Some because they love to protect their country men, and others because they want to kill brown people(don't tell me that's not true. I went to high school with jacka**es who wanted to "mow down those sandn****rs" and is now serving in the Army.)

So why should I or we show blanket respect for this mercenary force?

 

[Al68]

So why should I or we show blanket respect for this mercenary force?

I respect the military because without them, we would be slaves to anyone who chooses to enslave us. I have no particular reason to greatly respect a mercenary force, but I actually know the difference.

And FWIT, I respect garbage men, too. We might be able to live in freedom without them, but it would be smelly freedom.

 

[DaveC426913]

So why should I or we show blanket respect for this mercenary force?

I have always felt that supporting the troops has absolutely nothing to do with their cause of righteousness and everything to do with the fact that they are our countrymen who, for whatever reason, are far overseas, away from their loved ones, lonely and possibly coming home in a body bag. We support them because they need to know that we care.

Likewise, Your mom may vehemently disagree with your decision to leave your hometown to go to New York and live in squalor trying to get into your dream of show business - but that will not stop her from sending you care packages weekly.

 

[tchitt]

Supporting the troops is about letting these men and women know that you feel for them and with them knowing the situation they've been placed in. You don't have to support the war to support the troops... they need all the support they can get. War is hell and it ruins people's lives. 1 in 3 homeless people in the United States is a veteran of a foreign war. Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder and things like it tend to lead to drug abuse and a general inability to function in the civilian world.

I think the idea that they're cut from the same cloth as murderers is disgusting. I've got family in Iraq and I can assure you they're good people.

 

[DaveC426913]

Same thing with the military, what we have is an almost mercenary force. Many are in it because of the financial benefit and because it was their last option. Some because they love to protect their country men, and others because they want to kill brown people(don't tell me that's not true. I went to high school with jacka**es who wanted to "mow down those sandn****rs" and is now serving in the Army.)

So why should I or we show blanket respect for this mercenary force?

A better question: why should you show blanket lack of respect because of a bad apple? Surely when it comes to judging the motives (if their motives are even relevant to the issue at-hand) of hundreds of thousands of individuals, you owe it to them to give them the benefit of the doubt. Or better yet, simply not judge that which you don't know.

 

[russ_watters]

Note that whether one likes/respects the members of the military or not doesn't really have anything to do with whether or not they are murderers (as is the topic of the thread...). So ghost, could you explain what the relevance of your posts is to the thread?

 

[turbo]

My nephew and his wife are both lifers in the Navy. My youngest cousin and his wife were career Air Force, now retired. The daughter of another cousin was trained in military law enforcement, and was scheduled to rotate out the bad apples at Abu Ghraib when she turned up pregnant. We don't have to support the wars nor the policies of the administration in charge when they start the wars. It is important to let our military personnel know that we appreciate their sacrifices.

Lest we gloss this, remember that lots of the service-people overseas are National Guard, and had to give up their businesses, etc, when they were called up. Many others should have been able to join private life when their service was up, but were stop-lossed.

 

[Ghost803]

Note that whether one likes/respects the members of the military or not doesn't really have anything to do with whether or not they are murderers (as is the topic of the thread...). So ghost, could you explain what the relevance of your posts is to the thread?

I mistook the word "support" for respect from the Original post. So I might be in the wrong.

But could someone explain what supporting the troops mean? I don't think it is material support as in sending them food or something.

 

[drankin]

I mistook the word support for respect from the Original post. So I might be in the wrong.

But could someone explain what supporting the troops mean? I don't think it is material support as in sending them food or something.

Morale support. Sometimes they might feel as though they are having to put their lives on the line for Americans who don't appreciate them. We want them to know that they aren't watching their fellow soldiers lose limbs and die for nothing. Bad morale can cost lives in war.

 

[russ_watters]

I mistook the word "support" for respect from the Original post. So I might be in the wrong.

Yes, respect is typically a component of support (not the main component*), but if that's the only sentence of the OP you read, then you completely missed the point of the thread. That was only an introduction. The reasons some people might have for supporting the troops are irrelevant. This thread is about the OP's reason for not supporting the troops (that he considers them murderers).

*Mostly, "I support the troops" simply means "I hope you don't die".

 

[OmCheeto]

I don't understand why everyone is all about supporting the troops

I do because I was once one of them.

These people kill other people

I never killed anyone. I think you are generalizing.

I believe killing is wrong, also war is wrong...

I believe this has been covered.

Am I out of line when I say I hate the troops as much as any other murderer/life taker?!

If you were an American, it would have been me that defended your right to say you hate them. Perhaps your British military does the same. If you were an Iraqi in the times of Hussein, you would probably be dead for having said such a thing. So it is difficult for me to say whether you are out of line or not.

I understand using troops for defense...

Very good. The best offense is a good defense. Walk softly and carry a big stick. etc, etc.

But look, Iraq did nothing to UK (where I'm from) and nothing to USA. We are the offense in this example...

I believe Iraq invaded Kuwait, which led to our invasion of Iraq.
Like a policeman coming across a crackhead stabbing an elderly woman to steal her purse, it is better to shoot the crackhead dead, rather than just watch, and have him repeat the same thing to another innocent victim the next night.
Wars are a bit more complicated than that. The crackhead is usually the leader of the nation. And people are brainwashed almost everywhere to love their leaders. So it's not as simple as taking out one person. His followers will support them to their deaths. I know this for a fact. My mother loved Hitler until she died a few years ago. She was 9 years old when he came to power. She entered the Luftwaffe at 16. And even though Hitler dragged her country to ruin, she still thought he was the best thing since sliced bread.

I do not know why we invaded Iraq the second time, other than perhaps someone thought Saddam would do it again.

In my school we had to pray for the troops (catholic school >_>). And I never did. How can you pray for some people to kill other people?! (I wasn't atheist at that time). Guess what, Osama Bin Laden praises his 'troops' too for killing westerners

We don't praise our butchers for killing the cows we eat. Likewise, we do not praise our troops for killing. But they have a job to do. If they do not do it, then they will be dead. And then the other side will win, and despots will rule the world, and as I said before, you would be dead for questioning the state and it's glory.

This week, the Colbert Report is in Iraq and is shooting the TV show at a US-base. This is why I'm posting this topic... it reminded me of my views on the whole issue. And now I cannot even watch that show because they are always praising the troops over and over...

It just all seems so hypocritical. Hoping our side kills the other side... And yet teaching 'violence is wrong'. We are using violence on a mass scale and NOT as last resort...

I believe we are in the process of leaving.
Although you should not forget the past, one should not talk of the past as if it were the present, but use it as a reminder of what may happen again.

Also, it has been my impression that most of the civilian deaths were caused by sectarian violence, and not by the US or UK military.

I do not know how legitimate the following site is, but it seems to support my claim:
http://www.iraqbodycount.org/database/incidents/page1

What do you guys think? Can you see where I'm coming from...

Yes. But you should join the British military anyways. Gandhi would be proud.

 

[tchitt]

Also, it has been my impression that most of the civilian deaths were caused by sectarian violence, and not by the US or UK military.

I've also heard that it's a tactic of the Taliban and their cronies to purposely kill iraqi/afghani civilians with rocket propelled grenades and bombs, then turn around and blame coalition forces to drum up opposition to them. Of course the United States would say that, but regardless of what the truth is but I don't think it's unbelievable. It's even likely.

 

[JaredJames]

I've also heard that it's a tactic of the Taliban and their cronies to purposely kill iraqi/afghani civilians with rocket propelled grenades and bombs, then turn around and blame coalition forces to drum up opposition to them. Of course the United States would say that, but regardless of what the truth is but I don't think it's unbelievable. It's even likely.

Given the numbers of people in the aircraft, world trade centres and in london during the bombings. The odds are some of them shared the same faith (perhaps not as strictly/fundamentally), as the terrorists. I fully believe they are capable (and certainly would) kill innocent civilians just to make it look like our militaries did and raise their own support.

I wonder if they ever considered that when hijacking the aircraft, ramming the towers or detonating the bombs? Can't 'look good to god' if you kill your own can it? Bet that lowered the virgin count in heaven!

 

[OmCheeto]

Can't 'look good to god' if you kill your own can it? Bet that lowered the virgin count in heaven!

I've skimmed through the Kuran, and it appears that the terrorists that were involved in the world trade center destruction could not have been Muslims. They violated every rule in the book. If they were, they'd be looking at a higher caliber of virgin in heaven.

But we're getting a bit off topic.

Some people have criticized our troops for the Abu Ghraib incident. Personally, it looked like a grade school hazing compared to the hack saw beheadings and carnage brought about by the opposition. Yet, we hold our soldiers to such a high standard, that many of them have been sent to prison. Perhaps they should have used the oppositions tactics and just killed the prisoners, dragged them to the other side of town, blamed it on Al-Qaida, and gone about their business. Naaaa... Lies are the tools of cowards and thieves.