Questioning Obama's Critics: Why the Dislike?

[LowlyPion]

I'd say the arguments against McCain and Obama not being eligible due to citizenship requirements are a bit specious. The apparent preponderance of interpretation surely lies with McCain and Obama both qualifying as Citizens under the original meaning and intent of the Constitution and current US Law.

Article II Section 1 doesn't exactly specify a US soil requirement as an eligibility requirement.

No person except a natural born citizen, or a citizen of the United States, at the time of the adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the office of President; ...

http://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution/constitution.articleii.html

The US Naturalization Law of 1790 went on to state:

And the children of citizens of the United States that may be born beyond sea, or outside the limits of the United States, shall be considered as natural born citizens.

http://memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/ampage?collId=llsl&fileName=001/llsl001.db&recNum=227

Current law today embodied in Title 8, Section 1401, defines citizens at birth as among other eligibilities:

(c) a person born outside of the United States and its outlying possessions of parents both of whom are citizens of the United States and one of whom has had a residence in the United States or one of its outlying possessions, prior to the birth of such person;

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/8/1401.html

 

[LowlyPion]

Now I realize that Obama has a father that is Kenyan, and that may cloud his qualification a bit under 8 USC 1401. But I'd say that his birth to a US mother is further qualified by a clarification from 1934 that I will find shortly.

Edit: I see that is covered in subsequent section of 8 USC 1401

(d) a person born outside of the United States and its outlying possessions of parents one of whom is a citizen of the United States who has been physically present in the United States or one of its outlying possessions for a continuous period of one year prior to the birth of such person, and the other of whom is a national, but not a citizen of the United States;

 

[Evo]

Now I realize that Obama has a father that is Kenyan, and that may cloud his qualification a bit under 8 USC 1401. But I'd say that his birth to a US mother is further qualified by a clarification from 1934 that I will find shortly.

Edit: I see that is covered in subsequent section of 8 USC 1401

And she was in Kenya before his birth, not the US.

But it's all just rumor until proven.

What would happen if he were elected and it was proven, for example, that he did become a naturalized citizen of Indonesia as is stated in the suit? Biden would become President? What would happen to Obama? What is the penalty for lying about your eligibility?

If you missed the link, here is what the lawsuit states

Obama lost his U.S. citizenship when his mother married an Indonesian citizen and relocated herself and Obama to Indonesia wherein Obama's mother naturalized in Indonesia and Obama followed her naturalization, as he was a minor and in the custody of his mother. Obama failed to take the oath of allegiance when he turned eighteen (18) years to regain his United States Citizenship status.

Hmmm, Obama's "Fight the Smears" website is not denying the Indonesia citizenship.

 

[Art]

If one of your parents are American it doesn't matter if you are born on the moon; you are automatically an American citizen.

Documentation of U.S. Citizens Born Abroad

U.S. Department of State
Bureau of Consular Affairs

Documentation of United States Citizens Born
Abroad Who Acquire Citizenship At Birth

The birth of a child abroad to U.S. citizen parent(s) should be reported as soon as possible to the nearest American consular office for the purpose of establishing an official record of the child’s claim to U.S. citizenship at birth. The official record is in the form of a Consular Report of Birth Abroad of a Citizen of the United States of America. This document, referred to as the Consular Report of Birth or FS-240, is considered a basic United States citizenship document. An original FS-240 is furnished to the parent(s) at the time the registration is approved.

http://travel.state.gov/law/info/overseas/overseas_703.html

This is just another variation of the 'Muslim' slur cranked out by the rumour mill. He's effectively shot down claims he is a secret Muslim, so now they've moved on to, 'he's probably not 'American'', one wonders what they'll think of next to muddy his image.

IMO It seems his being black makes all of this nonsense seem somehow more plausible to people whereas McCain's citizenship isn't seriously questioned because he is white. Intentionally or not there is more than a hint of racism at work here.

Here's a link to debunk the story being touted that he relinquished his US citizenship in Indonesia;

ELEMENTS OF RENUNCIATION

A person wishing to renounce his or her U.S. citizenship must voluntarily and with intent to relinquish U.S. citizenship:

1. appear in person before a U.S. consular or diplomatic officer,
2. in a foreign country (normally at a U.S. Embassy or Consulate); and
3. sign an oath of renunciation

Renunciations that do not meet the conditions described above have no legal effect. Because of the provisions of section 349(a)(5), Americans cannot effectively renounce their citizenship by mail, through an agent, or while in the United States. In fact, U.S. courts have held certain attempts to renounce U.S. citizenship to be ineffective on a variety of grounds, as discussed below.

http://travel.state.gov/law/citizenship/citizenship_776.html

Renouncing one's citizenship is a hell of a lot more complicated and difficult than filling in a different nationality on a school enrolment form

I did find it amusing that Philip Berg at the end of his law suit said 'even if it turns out he is American he could have dual loyalties' This from a Jewish attorney lol.

If one reads this interview he gave to Jeff Schreiber of Free Republic you can see what a nut-job he is. As someone who claims the US gov't were behind the 9/11 attacks even the right wing press is wary of embracing him too closely. Fox News said they wouldn't touch it until it was in the mainstream news which speaks volumes about how seriously one should take these claims.

http://freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2067017/posts

 

[Astronuc]

Obama lost his U.S. citizenship when his mother married an Indonesian citizen and relocated herself and Obama to Indonesia wherein Obama's mother naturalized in Indonesia and Obama followed her naturalization, as he was a minor and in the custody of his mother. Obama failed to take the oath of allegiance when he turned eighteen (18) years to regain his United States Citizenship status.

If that's the case, then it might end up in the Supreme Court.

Actually, did Ann Dunham become an Indonesian citizen?

If so, then the question would be - did Ann Dunham renounce US citizenship, or did her assumption of Indonesian citizenship terminate her US citizenship, which I believe was usually the case back then.

And if that's the case, does that supercede the US Code with regard to Obama's citizenship.

And I guess, the other part is whether or not he was born in Kenya or Hawaii.

 

[Evo]

In re-reading the wording

Obama's mother naturalized in Indonesia and Obama followed her naturalization, as he was a minor and in the custody of his mother.

at first I thought it said that Obama was also naturalized, but it looks like Berg is making the assumption that if Obama's mother became a naturalized Indonesian citizen while he was a minor that Obama would automatically become an Indonesian citizen. Not in the eyes of the US, if he can prove that he was in fact born in Hawaii, he would still be a US citizen, a Dual National because of his father though.

 

[Art]

In re-reading the wording at first I thought it said that Obama was also naturalized, but it looks like Berg is making the assumption that if Obama's mother became a naturalized Indonesian citizen while he was a minor that Obama would automatically become an Indonesian citizen. Not in the eyes of the US, if he can prove that he was in fact born in Hawaii, he would still be a US citizen, a Dual National because of his father though.

As I showed 2 posts back renouncing one's US citizenship is not an easy thing to do and requires a lot more documentation than a notation on a school enrolment form.

 

[Astronuc]

AFAIK, only one can renounce one's own US citizenship, and it is apparently clear that the US code stipulates that as long as one of the parents is a US citizen, and particularly the mother, then one is automatically granted US citizenship. Of course, anyone born on US soil is automatically American, even if both parents are foreign agents!

Yeah - this will certainly get interestinger and interestinger.

 

[Evo]

If you want to go blind looking at all of the laws, Supreme Court decisions, etc... here you go.

http://www.aca.ch/op4b.htm

Yeah, I get the impression that Berg might be wearing a tinfoil hat.

Oh, Art, Jewish (Judaism) is a religious faith, not a nationality.

 

[Art]

You really need to read the link I gave to his interview. He admits he has no evidence whatsoever to support his contentions and his previous history of litigation makes amusing reading; but he still insists that although he has no evidence it is incumbent on Obama to prove him wrong.

This despite factcheck.org have already attested to the authenticity of his birth certificate

Recently FactCheck representatives got a chance to spend some time with the birth certificate, and we can attest to the fact that it is real and three-dimensional and resides at the Obama headquarters in Chicago. We can assure readers that the certificate does bear a raised seal, and that it's stamped on the back by Hawaii state registrar Alvin T. Onaka (who uses a signature stamp rather than signing individual birth certificates). We even brought home a few photographs.

http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/born_in_the_usa.html

They also have a picture of a birth announcement made at the time and as factcheck puts it

In fact, the conspiracy would need to be even deeper than our colleagues realized. In late July, a researcher looking to dig up dirt on Obama instead found a birth announcement that had been published in the Honolulu Advertiser on Sunday, Aug. 13, 1961:


Obama's birth announcement


The announcement was posted by a pro-Hillary Clinton blogger who grudgingly concluded that Obama "likely" was born Aug. 4, 1961 in Honolulu.
Of course, it's distantly possible that Obama's grandparents may have planted the announcement just in case their grandson needed to prove his U.S. citizenship in order to run for president someday. We suggest that those who choose to go down that path should first equip themselves with a high-quality tinfoil hat. The evidence is clear: Barack Obama was born in the U.S.A.

 

[Evo]

You really need to read the link I gave to his interview. He admits he has no evidence whatsoever to support his contentions and his previous history of litigation makes amusing reading; but he still insists that although he has no evidence it is incumbent on Obama to prove him wrong.

This despite factcheck.org have already contested to the authenticity of his birth certificate http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/born_in_the_usa.html

The issue that is being brought up is that his mother gave birth to him in Kenya, then when she brought him to Hawaii, she filed for a US birth certificate. Supposedly there are records of his birth in a Kenyan hospital.

If he was born in a hospital in Hawaii as he claims, the hospital will have the birth record, where is the hospital birth record? That would be proof, his mother could have lied on the birth certificate, it doesn't actually prove anything except that's what she filed.

 

[Art]

The issue that is being brought up is that his mother gave birth to him in Kenya, then when she brought him to Hawaii, she filed for a US birth certificate. Supposedly there are records of his birth in a Kenyan hospital.

If he was born in a hospital in Hawaii as he claims, the hospital will have the birth record, where is the hospital birth record?

In the interview he admits he has no evidence whatsoever to substantiate his claims; and the edit I added to my post above re the birth announcement in the Hawaii newspaper pretty much closes the argument.

 

[Evo]

In the interview he admits he has no evidence whatsoever to substantiate his claims; and the edit I added to my post above re the birth announcement in the Hawaii newspaper pretty much closes the argument.

Sorry, an announcement in a newspaper means didly squat. Provide the official hospital birth record. I have the hospital birth records for both of my children. All he has to do is request a copy from the hospital. That would prove where he was born, if he can do that, the case is closed.

 

[turbo]

Sorry, an announcement in a newspaper means didly squat. Provide the official hospital birth record. I have the hospital birth records for both of my children. All he has to do is request a copy from the hospital. If he can do that, the case is closed.

Why is this not acceptable?
http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/nn227/Polarik/BO_Birth_Certificate.jpg

 

[Art]

Sorry, an announcement in a newspaper means didly squat. Provide the official hospital birth record. I have the hospital birth records for both of my children. All he has to do is request a copy from the hospital.

Are you suggesting he should respond to every nutcase who throws accusations at him? The onus is very firmly on the one making accusations to prove them.

For Obama to publicly entertain each and every slur thrown his way would, unfortunately, in this twisted media world we live in, lend credibility to such claims.

In this instance he was initially asked to provide a birth certificate: he did on his website. Did this kill the rumour? No of course not. Next thing the blogosphere was buzzing with rumours that the certificate was a fake doctored using Photoshop. Now that that has been debunked are the conspiracy theorists happy? No of course not. Now they are saying it was issued through an illegal declaration.

Come on Evo where does it end? If they supplied yet more documents do you think these people spreading malicious lies would just go away? No, of course not!

 

[Evo]

Why is this not acceptable?
http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/nn227/Polarik/BO_Birth_Certificate.jpg

If he wasn't actually born in the US and his mother lied, the birth certificate is invalid. He needs to provide his hospital birth record to prove his mother actually made it to Hawaii (she was living in Kenya) before he was born. That is what the contention is over. If Obama can produce his birth record, then it will prove that the birth certificate is valid. as of right now, he has not furnished his birth record.

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

The issue that is being brought up is that his mother gave birth to him in Kenya, then when she brought him to Hawaii, she filed for a US birth certificate. Supposedly there are records of his birth in a Kenyan hospital.

If he was born in a hospital in Hawaii as he claims, the hospital will have the birth record, where is the hospital birth record? That would be proof, his mother could have lied on the birth certificate, it doesn't actually prove anything except that's what she filed.

If she filed for and received a Hawaiian birth certificate for him doesn't that make him a US citizen regardless of where he was born?

Are you suggesting he should respond to every nutcase who throws accusations at him? The onus is very firmly on the one making accusations to prove them.

For Obama to publicly entertain each and every slur thrown his way would unfortunately, in this twisted media world we live in, lend credibility to such claims.

I could be wrong but it seems that Obama often takes the easy way out on these issues by not being entirely honest. Back in the day he at least had the stones to admit to his drug use. I just wish that would carry over to now. Either way I like him far more than McCain and don't see any reason why he shouldn't be president among all of the nutcase claims.

 

[Art]

If he wasn't actually born in the US and his mother lied, the birth certificate is invalid. He needs to provide his hospital birth record to prove his mother actually made it to Hawaii (she was living in Kenya) before he was born. That is what the contention is over. If Obama can produce his birth record, then it will prove that the birth certificate is valid. as of right now, he has not furnished his birth record.

And that's where you are making a fundamental error. Obama doesn't need to do anything. His accusers are the one's who have to produce evidence to back up their claims.

I can't believe a conspiracy theory comprehensively debunked by factcheck.org has been allowed to continue to run on like this in this thread. As factcheck said,

We suggest that those who choose to go down that path should first equip themselves with a high-quality tinfoil hat.

 

[Evo]

Are you suggesting he should respond to every nutcase who throws accusations at him? The onus is very firmly on the one making accusations to prove them.

For Obama to publicly entertain each and every slur thrown his way would, unfortunately, in this twisted media world we live in, lend credibility to such claims.

In this instance he was initially asked to provide a birth certificate: he did on his website. Did this kill the rumour? No of course not. Next thing the blogosphere was buzzing with rumours that the certificate was a fake doctored using Photoshop. Now that that has been debunked are the conspiracy theorists happy? No of course not. Now they are saying it was issued through an illegal declaration.

Come on Evo where does it end? If they supplied yet more documents do you think these people spreading malicious lies would just go away? No, of course not!

Art, he just needs to produce his birth record, that's not hard.

 

[Gokul43201]

You think this is a big deal? Obama has yet to prove that he is not a coke dealing gay murderer.

 

[mgb_phys]

A Of course, anyone born on US soil is automatically American, even if both parents are foreign agents!

And it's quite difficult to get out of it. You have to be 18 to renounce your citizneship and even then doesn't necessarily exempt you from the draft or US tax!
A european colleague had to fly the mother back home for the last couple of months to make sure that their little german wouldn't end up liberating some foreign oil rich desert in 18years time.

 

[LowlyPion]

What would happen if he were elected and it was proven, for example, that he did become a naturalized citizen of Indonesia as is stated in the suit?

His mother subsequent to his birth becoming a citizen of another country I can't imagine affects the status of his US citizenship at birth. Regardless of the laws of Indonesia, they do not affect his rights in the US. I would consider that a non issue.

But surely this kind of thing is useful grist for the Karl Rove agenda of smearing opponents in the hopes that the electorate won't look at the bona fides or the policies of the candidate he is promoting.

 

[LowlyPion]

And she was in Kenya before his birth, not the US.

I think you are misinterpreting this clause of 8 USC 1401

(d) a person born outside of the United States and its outlying possessions of parents one of whom is a citizen of the United States who has been physically present in the United States or one of its outlying possessions for a continuous period of one year prior to the birth of such person, and the other of whom is a national, but not a citizen of the United States;

I think you will find that does not mean the year immediately preceding the birth, but rather means resided for a minimum of 1 full uninterrupted year in the US during her lifetime prior to his birth.

 

[Evo]

His mother subsequent to his birth becoming a citizen of another country I can't imagine affects the status of his US citizenship at birth. Regardless of the laws of Indonesia, they do not affect his rights in the US. I would consider that a non issue.

That's exactly what I said earlier. Obama would also have to have become a naturalized Indonesian citizen. Keep up with the posts LP!

I think you are misinterpreting this clause of 8 USC 1401

I think you will find that does not mean the year immediately preceding the birth, but rather means resided for a minimum of 1 full uninterrupted year in the US during her lifetime prior to his birth.

I'm not the one saying this LP, I was explaining what was said in the law suit. Also, since you bring it up, there does seem to be restrictions on when the time in the US was spent that affects citizenship status, I was just looking through the laws on citizenship yesterday. I will see if I can find what the laws were at the time he was born. The laws are modified every few years, a lot as the result of Supreme Court rulings.

 

[Evo]

This is interesting, according to US law

"Section 301 (b) Any person who is a national and citizen of the United States under paragraph (7) of subsection (a) shall lose his nationality and citizenship unless (1) he shall come to the United States and be continuously physically present therein for a period of not less than two years between the ages of fourteen years and twenty-eight years; or (2) the alien parent is naturalized while the child is under the age of eighteen years and the child begins to reside permanently in the United States while under the age of eighteen years. In the administration of this subsection absences from the United States of less than sixty days in the aggregate during the period for which continuous physical presence in the United States is required shall not break the continuity of such physical presence."

If Indonesia has a similar law, then when Obama's mother became naturalized as an Indonesian citizen while Obama was a minor and Obama lived with her in Indonesia, apparently Obama would be an Indonesian citizen. I didn't know that when a parent became naturalized that the existing children also changed citizenship.

Anway, here are the citizenship laws in chronological order. http://www.aca.ch/op4b.htm

I never knew all this bruhaha about Obama's nationality was going on until yesterday. Interesting from a legal standpoint based on his mother's actions. The question of if there is actually any issue at all will probably result in there being no issue. But questions of citizenship can be tricky.

 

[WarPhalange]

I don't understand. Why is this in the "Hate Obama?" thread? We hate him because he's not a born US Citizen?

 

[LowlyPion]

I'm not the one saying this LP, I was explaining what was said in the law suit. Also, since you bring it up, there does seem to be restrictions on when the time in the US was spent that affects citizenship status, I was just looking through the laws on citizenship yesterday. I will see if I can find what the laws were at the time he was born. The laws are modified every few years, a lot as the result of Supreme Court rulings.

I think you will find that little has changed in regards to this since about 1934 when I think it was recognized that just the mother would confer citizenship at birth. (Previously I believe the father could be the only parent, but not the mother, a rather strange lack of symmetry under law.) Since his mother was apparently raised in the US, met his father in college as I understand it, that should unequivocally make her a citizen at all times relevant and prior to his birth.

 

[Evo]

I think you will find that little has changed in regards to this since about 1934 when I think it was recognized that just the mother would confer citizenship at birth. (Previously I believe the father could be the only parent, but not the mother, a rather strange lack of symmetry under law.) Since his mother was apparently raised in the US, met his father in college as I understand it, that should unequivocally make her a citizen at all times relevant and prior to his birth.

Read the above post about her changing her nationality to Indonesian.

No one is questioning if she was American when he was born. His father was not American, which would give him dual national status, unless Obama denounced his Commonwealth citizenship.

 

[LowlyPion]

I don't understand. Why is this in the "Hate Obama?" thread? We hate him because he's not a born US Citizen?

That's just it. It is a straw issue - a Karl Rove favorite tactic apparently - to throw mud at the other guy and make them duck and not pummel their guy on the continuation of the failed policies of the past 8 years.

 

[LowlyPion]

Read the above post about her changing her nationality to Indonesian.

I did. Your hypothesizing that Indonesia may have laws relative to her National affiliation is irrelevant to the rights of Obama himself. No act on her part subsequent to his birth can cede his rights of citizenship from birth.

Indonesian law has no jurisdiction in the US.

 

[LowlyPion]

At this point I think the only ones that want to deny Obama citizenship are the Republicans determined to cling to power by whatever means or trickery or slander they can muster.

It's an unseemly display of desperation. It's time for Rove and Cheney to retire gracefully from the stage. Their little oven roaster thermometers have popped and they are done.

Just 5 months now and counting until Inauguration.

 

[Evo]

I did. Your hypothesizing that Indonesia may have laws relative to her National affiliation is irrelevant to the rights of Obama himself. No act on her part subsequent to his birth can cede his rights of citizenship from birth.

Indonesian law has no jurisdiction in the US.

US law has no jurisdiction in Indonesia. According to US law, an Indonesian national that naturalizes to become a US citizen, under US law, their children also become US citizens. Do you think that Indonesia recognizes that? And we aren't talking about his birth, btw.

Being a dual national myself, I know the problems it can cause. Take my brother, for instance. My mother was French and my father American, my brother and I were both born in the US, but because my mother was French, we also had French nationality. My mother later became a naturalized US citizen, which by US law would change our status to American, the French government does not recognize this US law, we would have to renounce our French citizenship at the age of 18, which neither of us did. When my brother turned 18, he was notified by the French government that he was obligated to serve whatever equivalent to military service in France. My mother spent a good bit of time between the US & French consulate getting him out of it. My brother had never even set foot on French soil.

When I went to Europe I carried two passports, one US and one French.

So even though the US recognizes me as being a full US Citizen, France also reconizes me as being a full French citizen.

Although Obama might be a US citizen, (I don't say he isn't, you keep thinking my reference to the lawsuit is my personal viewpoint for some odd reason) he may also have one or two other nationalities. I find it an interesting situation. I don't believe that holding multiple national status would prevent him from being President as long as he can prove that he was born on US soil.

 

[LowlyPion]

US law has no jurisdiction in Indonesia. According to US law, an Indonesian national that naturalizes to become a US citizen, under US law, their children also become US citizens. Do you think that Indonesia recognizes that? And we aren't talking about his birth, btw.

Yes we are talking about his birth. Because at his birth citizenship attached as far as US law is concerned.

What Indonesia requires or recognizes is irrelevant to that. Since for his purposes US citizenship has never been affected - in the US - regardless of what happened or may be required in any foreign jurisdiction - it's moot.

 

[WarPhalange]

It's an unseemly display of desperation. It's time for Rove and Cheney to retire gracefully from the stage.

It's that kind of attitude that got us here in the first place. HEADS SHOULD ROLL for what happened. And instead they get to go home and make millions more. It's ridiculous.

 

[LowlyPion]

It's that kind of attitude that got us here in the first place. HEADS SHOULD ROLL for what happened. And instead they get to go home and make millions more. It's ridiculous.

I doubt history will judge these power mongers with great kindness.

As to George I laugh at the thought of a Presidential Library.