Questions about a Hydrogen Economy; Scientific American

[hitssquad]

Yes, we have no plutonium in our fuel pebbles today

The ceramic approach seemed promising.

As far as I know, there is no such thing as a ceramic approach as regards PBMR fuel pebbles. The PBMR is a slow-neutron reactor. Slow-neutron reactors need neutron moderators. The PBMR uses graphite in its fuel pebbles to slow (moderate) the neutrons.

In principle the separation between the Pu beads [pellet cores]

https://www.pbmr.com/3_pbmr_technical_info/pbmr_technical_contents.htm#PBMRFuel

--
The fuel particles (kernels) consist of uranium dioxide.
--

The ceramics can withstand any temperature that might be reached in the event of a catastrophic cooling failure.

PBMRs, with their graphite fuel pebbles, can also withstand any temperature reached during a loss-of-coolant accident — provided there are no complicating circumstances. If burning jet fuel is dumped on the pebbles (which can easily happen since there is no containment shell for the reactor), they might burn and atmospherically-release tons of aerosolized high-level radioactive waste.

 

[hitssquad]

The tons of flammable graphite used in PBMRs

The PBMR design uses a silicon carbide coating on the fuel elements, not graphite

https://www.pbmr.com/3_pbmr_technical_info/pbmr_technical_contents.htm#PBMRFuel

--
The coated particles are embedded in a graphite matrix as a 50 mm sphere, called the fuel zone.

Adding a 5 mm thick fuel-free graphite zone makes up the fuel sphere with an outer diameter of 60 mm.
--

There is no meltdown risk.

If the graphite burns partly away, the fission fuel might become close enough together for a runaway reaction and subsequent meltdown to occur. Even of there isn't a meltdown, atmospheric fission-product release is possible if the graphite burns.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

As far as I know, there is no such thing as a ceramic approach as regards PBMR fuel pebbles.

There was. Perhaps things didn't work out.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

If gasoline reaches $4.00 a gallon as hinted at by the Bush administration today... Even at $3.00 a gallon we are quicky approaching the point where alternative technologies can compete.

 

[Seafang]

Those are not only silly questions, they are also already answered in the many links provided. Read and learn.

I don't think they are silly questions at all. all of those things you point to are supposedly sources of energy. Good; that's what we need is energy; so why go through the useless step of making hydrogen which we don't need; we need energy.

No amount of prestidigitation is going to evade the problem that we will have to use existing or new sources of energy to make hydrogen to do the same things we could do with that very energy withoput making hydrogen.

I believe it was Franz Kafka, who told a story about a region with a river running through it, and a town on each side of the river, both of them highly prosperous.

Everybody in the town on the west side of the river worked all day at the one factory in town, making marbles out of clay. They imported the finest finely ground clay materials and using the finest molding machinery that swiss engineering could devise, they cleverly molded that clay into perfectly spherical round marbles which the town exported to support all the population.

On the east side of the river, the second prosperous town also had but one factory where everybody worked. The factory had the finest German crushing machinerey that the human mind could conceive, and they all used those machines to produce the most beautiful finely powdered clay material from round marbles of the stuff that they imported in large sacks.

Everybody was kept happy, making hydrogen and then burning it.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

I don't think they are silly questions at all. all of those things you point to are supposedly sources of energy. Good; that's what we need is energy; so why go through the useless step of making hydrogen which we don't need; we need energy.

The point that you seem to keep missing is that there are about a hundred links in this thread and linked threads that answer your questions. Many renewable energy sources are promising, or even succeeding in some markets. I'm not about to list them all again. If you read, you will see that they are already discussed in this thread, and the original archived thread, linked on page one. The real point here is to track the progress of various approaches and to see which are most practical. Also, as suggested by Chronos, even nuclear power may be a part of the solution.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

The Hydrogen Economy: Physics Today

Note: I think part but not all of this was previously posted and available online. Either way, in case you missed it...

If the fuel cell is to become the modern steam engine, basic research must provide breakthroughs in understanding, materials, and design to make a hydrogen−based energy system a vibrant and competitive force.

George W. Crabtree, Mildred S. Dresselhaus, and Michelle V. Buchanan
Since the industrial revolution began in the 18th century, fossil fuels in the form of coal, oil, and natural gas have powered the technology and transportation networks that drive society. But continuing to power the world from fossil fuels threatens our energy supply and puts enormous strains on the environment. The world's demand for energy is projected to double by 2050 in response to population growth and the industrialization of developing countries.1 The supply of fossil fuels is limited, with restrictive shortages of oil and gas projected to occur within our lifetimes (see the article by Paul Weisz in Physics Today, July 2004, page 47). Global oil and gas reserves are concentrated in a few regions of the world, while demand is growing everywhere; as a result, a secure supply is increasingly difficult to assure. Moreover, the use of fossil fuels puts our own health at risk through the chemical and particulate pollution it creates. Carbon dioxide and other greenhouse gas emissions that are associated with global warming threaten the stability of Earth's climate.

A replacement for fossil fuels will not appear overnight. Extensive R&D is required before alternative sources can supply energy in quantities and at costs competitive with fossil fuels, and making those alternative sources available commercially will itself require developing the proper economic infrastructure. Each of those steps takes time, but greater global investment in R&D will most likely hasten the pace of economic change. Although it is impossible to predict when the fossil fuel supply will fall short of demand or when global warming will become acute, the present trend of yearly increases in fossil fuel use shortens our window of opportunity for a managed transition to alternative energy sources.

Hydrogen as energy carrier [continued]

http://www.physicstoday.org/vol-57/iss-12/p39.html

For the pdf: http://www.physicstoday.org/vol-57/iss-12/PDF/vol57no12p39-45.pdf

 

[hitssquad]

Do you think fuel cells are ever going to compete against gasoline, Ivan?

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Do you think fuel cells are ever going to compete against gasoline, Ivan?

I would think so. The automotive designers are already heavily invested in fuel cell technologies, and with gasoline expected to reach as much as $4.00 a gallon soon... When we think about these things, we tend to think in terms of today's prices. Wait until gas here is $6.00 like in other countries. Also, as I have argued all along, if we include the real costs of oil, which includes war and many of the world's ills, fuel cells and alternative fuels are already cheap.

Of course [insert several explitives here] Bush favors making fuel cells that run on gasoline.

 

[hitssquad]

Gasoline externalities and consumer preference

if we include the real costs of oil

It is one thing to cite externalities, and another to imply that people consider externalities when making purchasing decisions. We are talking about whether fuel cells will ever compete against gasoline. Indicative of the lack of consumer motive for seeking alternative fuel technologies might be the facts that fuel-economical vehicles are persistently unpopular and that yearly vehicle miles traveled continually rises.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

First, as indicated, fuel cells and gasoline are not mutually exclusive. Next, orders for Hybrid vehicles are off the charts, in some case at least. As for your assertion that fuel economical vehicles are continually unpopular, I assume that you drive a Buick? It seems that you forget what we used to drive.

Also, test electric vehicles distributed by GM - the EV1 - were tremendously popular among those who were lucky enough [by their accounts] to get one. So I don't really see the basis for your arguments. Needless to say that this all neglects the coming reality of $4, and eventually $6 per gallon, and more. Finally, the ever increasing taxes on fuel are no accident, and externalities justify even more tax; much, much more.

The costs to all of us in money, environmental damage, health related issues and costs, which are huge btw, political agendas, military expenditures, etc, etc, and ultimately the cost in lives associated with the petro-economy are all very real. The benefits of an H2 economy - which appears to include H2 powered fuel cells - in all respects are equally real. So it not only makes sense on a personal/financial level, it makes sense from macro-economic and political perspectives as well; at the right time.

If you feel that alternative fuels are practical, but not fuel cells, I can only defer to the automotive engineers and designers who should know. They seem to feel that these will emerge as a practical technology. I think it will take time, and transitional technologies may be more practical; perhaps even H2 combustion engines, as some companies are working on this. I also liked your hydrogen pellets linked some pages ago. Those seem promising [edit] but I was concerned about the efficiency of the entire process. Of course, you bypass all sorts of problems by having a solid to transport and store, rather than a high pressure gas. So it seems to me that any additional energy costs in the production of these pellets might be recaptured in the distribution system.

 

[hitssquad]

I also liked your hydrogen pellets linked some pages ago.

Boron?
http://www.eagle.ca/~gcowan/Paper_for_11th_CHC.html

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Boron?
http://www.eagle.ca/~gcowan/Paper_for_11th_CHC.html

Hmmm, I may be mixing up your post with the pellets discussed in the Nova special. I thought that you had posted something very similar, but not Boron.


An intersting story today:

Windmills in the Sky
Australian engineer Bryan Roberts wants to build a power station in the sky -- a cluster of flying windmills soaring 15,000 feet in the air -- but is having trouble raising enough money to get the project off the ground.

After 25 years of research, Roberts has designed a helicopter-like rotorcraft to hoist a wind turbine high into the air, where winds are persistent and strong. The craft, which is powered by its own electricity and can stay aloft for months, feeds electricity to the ground through a cable.

Roberts, a professor of engineering at the University of Technology, Sydney, believes there is enough energy in high-altitude winds to satisfy the world's demands. Wind-tunnel data suggests a cluster of 600 flying electric generators, or FEGs, could produce three times as much energy as the United States' most productive nuclear power plant. [continued]

http://www.wired.com/news/planet/0,2782,67121,00.html?tw=wn_tophead_2

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Solar Tower of Power Finds Home

The quest for a new form of green energy has taken a significant step with the purchase of a 25,000-acre sheep farm in the Australian outback. The huge alternative energy project isn't driven by manure, but by a 1-kilometer-high thermal power station called the Solar Tower.

Announced several years ago, the 3,280-foot Solar Tower is one of the most ambitious alternative energy projects on the planet: a renewable energy plant that pumps out the same power as a small reactor but is totally safe. If built, it will be nearly double the height of the world's tallest structure, the CN Tower in Canada.

..."Solar chimneys (towers) have become a hot area of research recently," said S.A. Sherif, a professor of mechanical and aerospace engineering at the University of Florida, who wrote several papers on the technology in the early 1990s and is the technical editor of the http://www.ises.org/ises.nsf/0/8eb9a73ea902c053c12568be004fa01a?OpenDocument . Although expensive to build, solar towers "essentially produce energy for free," said Sherif. In addition, the technology has been proven to work: A 650-foot solar tower was built in Manzanares, Spain, in 1981 by German structural engineers Schlaich Bergermann and Partner. Producing 50 kilowatts, it operated for seven years. But with oil prices at $15 a barrel in the mid-1980s, there was little interest in building a larger one, Sherif said. [continued]

http://www.wired.com/news/technology/0,1282,66694,00.html

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Please see also the new posts above:

About H2 ICE: Internal Combustion Engines. They're here...
https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=70653

Also, this seems to be a very cool site and one that I have never seen:
H2 CARSBIZ
http://www.h2cars.biz/artman/publish/index.shtml

 

[Cliff_J]

I thought the general consensus a while back was the solar tower is bogus and a borderline urban myth. That basically its extremely tough to pump water to the levels described and the structure would be incredibly expensive to build along with other issues that would need to be carefully managed. Managed so well that most figures (as I recall) showed a negative energy output.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

I thought the general consensus a while back was the solar tower is bogus and a borderline urban myth. That basically its extremely tough to pump water to the levels described and the structure would be incredibly expensive to build along with other issues that would need to be carefully managed. Managed so well that most figures (as I recall) showed a negative energy output.

I hadn't heard of this effort or what you describe. Could that have been something else? I didn't see that this would require pumping water.

It seems that Wired does push the edge a bit, but the claims of earlier efforts are quite specific.

 

[hitssquad]

I thought the general consensus a while back was the solar tower is bogus and a borderline urban myth. That basically its extremely tough to pump water to the levels described

It channels rising hot air which drives turbines. It doesn't use water:
http://www.wired.com/news/technology/0,1282,66694,00.html

--
The Solar Tower is hollow in the middle like a chimney. At its base is a solar collector -- a 25,000-acre, transparent circular skirt. The air under the collector is heated by the sun and funneled up the chimney by convection -- hot air rises. As it rises, the air accelerates to 35 mph, driving 32 wind turbines inside the tower, which generate electricity much like conventional wind farms.
--

 

[Billy T]

I only read last page and first two of this long thread, so hope i am not repeating. Most energy is in some form "solar energy" (coal old version, fission even older and not from our sun but earlier star) Only exception is tidal power. As many have pointed out, hydrogen is not an energy source. Most would prefer to live off the current solar input, stop burning fossil fuels, avoid nuclear, etc. The hydrogen economy could do so, but it will still take a lot of area as sunlight is not very concentrated. Few realize that solar cell generated electricity can not compete with the current sources even if the solar cells had zero cost the so called "BOS cost" (Balance of System) for land, structures, periodic repair,cleaning, conversion to AC from the DC generated, lots of interconnect wires, and a few other items are too expensive.

So what can one do? Use a natural solar energy collection system (sugar cane). It has about the same or slightly better efficiency than common economical solar cells (and the theoretical limit is 21% for any based on silicon, which is nearly ideal for the solar spectrum)

Production of a liquid fuel (alcohol) from sugar cane is easy and relatively cheap. The residue is good for feed to cattle, enrich the soil, and sequester carbon - I.e. removes CO2 from the air economically as only vegetation (green algie is "vegetation") can. Brazil were I live has been running cars on alcohol in large numbers for a couple of decades. Currently alcohol cost about R$1.20 /liter and gasoline about R$2.20 i.e. alcohol is much less costly and there is no funny economics in this. I don't have the current sales data but bet 9 out of 10 new cars sold in Brazil will run on alcohol.

Brazil would love to sell it to US and their well developed alcohol/ gas in any ratio motors. It is so cheap here because land and labor are cheap, the growing season is 12 months each year. Obviously the corn growing farmers of Iowa and their market for octane enhancement etc. "gasohol" would suffer if Brazil were allowed to export to US. Also important is fact that no Brazilian votes were available or of interested to a US government dominated by former oil company owners and related industry CEOs.

Never mind new hydrogen economy - get some real economy now with 20 year old Brazilian technology. Remove US import barriers.

 

[russ_watters]

I thought the general consensus a while back was the solar tower is bogus and a borderline urban myth. That basically its extremely tough to pump water to the levels described and the structure would be incredibly expensive to build along with other issues that would need to be carefully managed. Managed so well that most figures (as I recall) showed a negative energy output.

Are you thinking of the guy who wanted to pump fuel into space on a carbon nanotube tether/pipe?

No, as others have said, the solar tower idea just uses solare heating of the desert and would work - in theory. But that "in theory" part is a real kicker: The worlds tallest freestanding structure is about 500m high. They want to build a 1000m tower. Doesn't seem too realistic to me from an engineering standpoint.

Oh, and the other problem is that the company that's proposing it is a scam.

edit: I'm not a big fan of Wired - they publish a lot of crap, but this is a little rediculous:

But the purchase of the farm, which cost $1 million, near Mildura, Victoria, is a "very big step" in getting the project built, Davey said.

So far, the main impediment to building the tower has been the cost, with estimates ranging from $500 million to $750 million.

Hmm... obtaining 1/750th of the needed funding (guestimated) is "a very big step"?

And this land - at $185 an acre? I'm guessing its in the middle of nowhere.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Oh, and the other problem is that the company that's proposing it is a scam.

edit: I'm not a big fan of Wired - they publish a lot of crap, but this is a little rediculous: Hmm... obtaining 1/750th of the needed funding (guestimated) is "a very big step"?

And this land - at $185 an acre? I'm guessing its in the middle of nowhere

Why do you call it a scam? I agree that it could be, but this could just be a matter of pioneers blazing trails. Do you have some specific information about this company or the people involved?

 

[Ivan Seeking]

It's a typo. Powerball.net is a hydrogen economy technology site.

• The concept behind Powerball Technologies is to tame energy, (so to speak) and to store one powerful element - sodium (or sodium hydride) - in order to later get Hydrogen on Demand.
  
  Powerball fuel pelletsTM store and produce hydrogen on demand. Each gallon of powerball fuel pellets produces hundreds of gallons of hydrogen upon contact with water on an as-needed basis. Powerball fuel pelletsTM offer a safe, compact, and inexpensive alternative to the delivery, storage and use of compressed or liquid hydrogen for a wide range of applications which require a clean source of hydrogen.

Here it is. Dead link.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Summary of links to date

This is a list of all good links to date - posted in this and the parent thread:
A Hydrogen economy: Be a part of the change! https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=4127

Posted approximately in the order discussed:
[Please post a note if any links are bad.]

Scientific American Frontiers: Future Cars [Watch the video online]
http://www.pbs.org/saf/1403/index.html

Questions about a Hydrogen Economy; Scientific American
http://www.sciamdigital.com/browse....B9BE5E6-2B35-221B-6F2461DEF9B52B9C&sc=I100322

Office of Nuclear Energy, Science and Technology
U. S. Department of Energy
Nuclear Hydrogen Initiative Nuclear
http://www.nuclear.gov/infosheets/hydrogenfactmarch2003.pdf

The National Hydrogen Association
http://www.hydrogenus.com/

http://www.eere.energy.gov/hydrogenandfuelcells/hydrogen/iea/

http://www.geocities.com/mj_17870/index.html

http://education.lanl.gov/resources/h2/education.html

http://www.stuartenergy.com/

HYDROGEN AND THE MATERIALS OF A SUSTAINABLE ENERGY FUTURE
WORLD WIDE WEB SITE
Hosted by: Los Alamos National Laboratories
http://education.lanl.gov/resources/h2/education.html

International Energy Agency Hydrogen Program
http://www.ieahia.org/

Includes discussion of
BIOMASS TO H2
DIRECT PRODUCTION FROM WHOLE BIOMASS
Gasification
Thermal/Steam/Partial Oxidation
PRODUCTION OF STORABLE INTERMEDIATES FROM BIOMASS PARTIAL CONVERSION
Small scale reformer technologies
Photovoltaic cells plus an electrolyzer
Photoelectrochemical cells with one or more semiconductor electrodes
Photobiological systems
Photodegradation systems
Photoelectrolytic and Photobiological Production of Hydrogen

Case Studies of Integrated Hydrogen Energy Systems
http://www.ieahia.org/case_studies.html

Hydrogen by Catalytic Decomposition of Water [search "Hydrogen"]
http://www.netl.doe.gov/
http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-...,468,499.WKU.&OS=PN/6,468,499&RS=PN/6,468,499

Also at the site above: search Hydrogen
HYDROGEN FROM COAL
DENSE CERAMIC MEMBRANES FOR HYDROGEN SEPARATION

Hydrogen - The Department of Energy
http://www.energy.gov/engine/content.do?BT_CODE=ES_HYDROGEN
Time to Escape from the Grid: Wired Magazine
http://www.wired.com/news/culture/0,1284,60089,00.html

http://physicsweb.org/article/world/15/7/10/1

First two myths about renewable energy need to be dispelled
http://physicsweb.org/article/world/14/6/2/2

Fuel cells: environmental friend or foe?
http://physicsweb.org/article/news/7/6/10/1

More on fuel cells
http://physicsweb.org/article/world/11/7/2/1

Hydrogen Safety Facts
http://www.hydrogenus.com/H2-Safety-Fact-Sheet.pdf

Hydrogen at Home; The H2 Horizon: Re Iceland, which has gone H2 already
http://www.loe.org/ETS/organizations.php3?action=printContentItem&orgid=33&typeID=18&itemID=204&User_Session=63e33af74b5bc33216035afa351f1a58

Fuel from water [credibility of author unknown]
http://www.lindsaybks.com/bks/hydrogen/index.html

Gas Hydrages
http://www.fe.doe.gov/programs/oilgas/hydrates/
http://oceanusmag.whoi.edu/v42n2/whelan.html
http://woodshole.er.usgs.gov/project-pages/hydrates/who.html

The NHA's Hydrogen Commercialization Plan
http://www.hydrogenus.com/commercializationplan.asp

The NHA's Hydrogen Implementation Plan
http://www.hydrogenus.com/implementationplan.asp

Multi-step metal oxide cycles for solar-thermal water splitting"
http://www.colorado.edu/che/TeamWeimer/perkins.htm
http://www.pre.ethz.ch/cgi-bin/main.pl?research?project6

Solar Production Of Zinc: Concentrated solar energy is used as the source of process heat for the dissociation of zinc oxide
http://solar.web.psi.ch/daten/projekt/zno/roca/roca.html

Mechanical Engineering "Power & Energy," March 2004 -- "Packaging Sunlight," Feature Article
http://www.memagazine.org/pemar04/pckgsun/pckgsun.html

Analysis of Solar Thermochemical Water-Splitting Cycles for Hydrogen
http://216.239.39.104/search?q=cach...solar+furnace"+efficiency+cost+problems&hl=en

Concentrating Photovoltaics: Collaborative Opportunities within DOE’s CSP and PV Programs
http://www.nrel.gov/docs/fy02osti/31143.pdf

Rapid Solar-thermal Dissociation of Natural Gas in an Aerosol Flow Reactor
http://216.239.39.104/search?q=cach...solar+furnace"+efficiency+cost+problems&hl=en

1. Union of Concerned Scientists www.ucsusa.org.
2. American Methanol Institute www.methanol.org.
3. Fuel Cells 2000 www.fuelcells.org.
4. California Air Resources Board www.arb.ca.gov.
5. National Hydrogen Association www.hydrogenus.com.
6. Los Alamos National Laboratory (see below)
7. California Fuel Cell Partnership www.drivingthefuture.org.
8. The US Fuel Cell Council www.usfcc.com.
9. California Hydrogen Business Council www.ch2bc.org/

White House press release
http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2003/02/20030206-2.html

Also, search "Hydrogen"
http://www.whitehouse.gov/

Fuel Cells
http://education.lanl.gov/resources/fuelcells/

Fues Cells coming of age
http://www.fuelcellstore.com/information/coming_of_age.html

Hydrogen Fuel Cell Cars: ecoworld article
http://www.ecoworld.com/Home/Articles2.cfm?TID=284

NASA Spaces on Energy Solutuion: Wired article
http://www.wired.com/news/technology/0,1282,63913,00.html?tw=wn_tophead_1

DEVELOPING IMPROVED MATERIALS TO SUPPORT THE HYDROGEN ECONOMY
http://www.hydrogenus.com/EMTEC-EFC-RFP01A.pdf

International Association For Hydrogen Energy
http://www.iahe.org/

Sustained Photobiological Hydrogen Gas Production upon Reversible Inactivation of Oxygen Evolution in the Green Alga Chlamydomonas reinhardtii
http://www.plantphysiol.org/cgi/content/abstract/122/1/127

Hydrogen; Quick Facts
http://www.hydrogenus.com/hydrogen-basics.asp

Europositron technology: a private enterprise
http://www.europositron.com/en/background.html

Brayton Cycle engines
http://www.almturbine.com/

Hybrid Turbine Electric Vehicle
http://www.grc.nasa.gov/WWW/RT1996/6000/6920v.htm
http://search.grc.nasa.gov/query.ht...qm=0&st=1&nh=10&lk=1&rq=0&rf=0&tx=0&go=Search

UK company way ahead of the market in creating green hydrogen
http://search.grc.nasa.gov/query.ht...qm=0&st=1&nh=10&lk=1&rq=0&rf=0&tx=0&go=Search

Hydrogen Economy looks out of reach: Nature article
UK company way ahead of the market in creating green hydrogen[/URL]

Running On Thin Air
Iceland is making its dream of a hydrogen economy come true
http://www.time.com/time/europe/specials/ff/trip1/hydrogen.html

California Unveils State's First Hydrogen Refueling Station: News item
http://english.chosun.com/w21data/html/news/200410/200410230010.html

Fusion reactor decision must wait: BBC report
[url]http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/3997249.stm[/url]

Hybrids vs. Hydrogen: Which Future Is Brighter?
[url]http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/Hybrid/story?id=266883&page=1[/url]

hydrogen from methanol
[url]http://www.nasatech.com/Briefs/Jun02/NPO19948.html[/url]

hydrogen from coal
[url]http://www.nuclear.com/Energy_policy/Coal_gas_news.html[/url]

hydrogen from nuclear power
http://www.businessreport.co.za/index.php?fSectionId=561&fArticleId=291054

hydrogen from sunlight
http://www.pureenergysystems.com/news/2004/09/14/6900043_Solar_Hydrogen/index.html

hydrogent from wind
http://evworld.com/view.cfm?section=article&storyid=502

fuel cells
[url]http://www.spacedaily.com/news/energy-tech-03s.html[/url]

Technical issues of a hydrogen economy
http://books.nap.edu/books/0309091632/html/1.html#pagetop

[url]hydrogen from methanol
[url]http://www.nasatech.com/Briefs/Jun02/NPO19948.html[/url]

hydrogen from coal
[url]http://www.nuclear.com/Energy_policy/Coal_gas_news.html[/url]

hydrogen from nuclear power
http://www.businessreport.co.za/index.php?fSectionId=561&fArticleId=291054

hydrogen from sunlight
http://www.pureenergysystems.com/news/2004/09/14/6900043_Solar_Hydrogen/index.html

hydrogent from wind
http://evworld.com/view.cfm?section=article&storyid=502

fuel cells
[url]http://www.spacedaily.com/news/energy-tech-03s.html[/url]

Technical issues of a hydrogen economy
http://books.nap.edu/books/0309091632/html/1.html#pagetop

Scientists develop new hydrogen reactor: CNN news item
http://www.cnn.com/2004/TECH/science/02/13/hydrogen.reactors.ap/

Ethanol and the Environment
http://www.ethanolrfa.org/factfic_envir.html
http://www.free-eco.org/articleDisplay.php?id=21
[url]http://www.ethanol-gec.org/corn_eth.htm#net[/url]
http://www.ncga.com/news/notd/2004/june/060904a.htm


A group of non-specific links from various poster:
[url]http://www.iogen.ca[/url]
[url]http://www.sheclabs.com[/url]
[url]http://www.ecologen.com/page_TSSOM2-75.html[/url]
[url]http://www.lanl.gov/worldview/news/releases/archive/04-076.shtml[/url]
[url]http://www.azonano.com/details.asp?articleID=1022[/url]
[url]http://209.157.64.200/focus/f-news/1291187/posts[/url]
[url]http://www.forrelease.com/D20040519...3352.28636.html[/url]
http://groundstate.ca/node/68

Food, Energy, and Society [book]
[URL][/URL]

Hydrogen economy for a sustainable development:state-of-the-art and technological perspectives
[URL][/URL]

The Hydrogen Economy: Physics Today article
http://www.physicstoday.org/vol-57/iss-12/p39.html
http://www.physicstoday.org/vol-57/iss-12/PDF/vol57no12p39-45.pdf

The Hydrogen Economy: Opportunities, Costs, Barriers, and R&D Needs (2004)
http://www.nap.edu/books/0309091632/html/

Hydrogen Economy Offers Major Opportunities But Faces Considerable Hurdles
[URL]http://www4.nationalacademies.org/news.nsf/isbn/0309091632?OpenDocument[/URL]

Supercritical-Water-Cooled Reactor
[URL]http://energy.inel.gov/gen-iv/scwr.shtml[/URL]

Clean coal compendium and related articles:
http://www.netl.doe.gov/cctc
[URL]http://www.careenergy.com/news/articleview.asp?iArticle=7[/URL]
http://www.antenna.nl/wise/uranium/mdaf.html

Automobile Emissions Reduction Efforts in the U.S. - Chronology
[url]http://www.ehso.com/ehshome/auto-emissions_chronol.htm[/url]
[url]http://www.csmonitor.com/2004/1223/p01s04-sten.html[/url]

Articles posted from Car and Driver
[url]http://www.caranddriver.com/article.asp?section_id=27&article_id=2502&page_number=1[/url]
[url]http://www.caranddriver.com/article.asp?section_id=27&article_id=3418&page_number=1[/url]
[url]http://www.caranddriver.com/article.asp?section_id=27&article_id=3418&page_number=1[/url]
[url]http://www.caranddriver.com/article.asp?section_id=27&article_id=3296&page_number=1[/url]
[url]http://www.caranddriver.com/article.asp?section_id=27&article_id=4343&page_number=1[/url]

The Dirty Folly of "Clean Coal"
http://www.ems.org/energy_policy/clean_coal.html

Coal Combustion, Public Health and the Environment
http://www.ems.org/energy_policy/coal.html

Emissions of greenhouse gases
[URL]http://www.eia.doe.gov/oiaf/1605/gg98rpt/emission.html[/URL]

More on nuclear options for Hydrogen
[URL]http://nuclear.gov/home/11-09-04.html[/URL]
[URL]https://www.pbmr.com/[/URL]
[URL]http://gt-mhr.ga.com/[/URL]
[URL]http://www.eia.doe.gov/cneaf/nuclear/page/analysis/nucenviss2.html[/URL]
[URL]https://www.pbmr.com/3_pbmr_technical_info/pbmr_technical_contents.htm#PBMRFuel[/URL]

Spray-On Solar-Power Cells Are True Breakthrough
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2005/01/0114_050114_solarplastic.html

ASU researcher gets grant to explore new methods of hydrogen generation
[url]http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2005-01/asu-arg012005.php[/url]

Quantum Dots and Tunable Bandgap
[URL]http://www.evidenttech.com/applications/quantum-dot-solar-cells.php[/URL]
[url]http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&q=quantum+dots+Infrared+solar+cells[/url]

Hydrogen for residential combined heat and power
http://www.waterstof.org/20030725EHECO3-132.pdf

Oregon may lead future of wave energy: news alert
[url]http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2005-02/osu-oml020105.php[/url]

"Ethanol has the potential to be an integral part of the emerging hydrogen economy. Its properties make it an excellent liquid fuel for the extraction of hydrogen.
http://www.maui-tomorrow.org/issuespages/energy/ethanol_hydrogen.html

Hydrogen powered motorcycle: news item
[URL]http://www.ananova.com/news/story/sm_1321345.html?menu=[/URL]

T-Zero Electric Car [hot!]
http://www.acpropulsion.com/tzero_pages/tzero_home.htm

Windmills in the Sky: Wired News item
http://www.wired.com/news/planet/0,2782,67121,00.html?tw=wn_tophead_2

Solar Tower of Power: Wired News item
http://www.wired.com/news/technology/0,1282,66694,00.html

About H2 ICE: Internal Combustion Engines. They're here...
[url]https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=70653[/url]

H2 CARSBIZ
http://www.h2cars.biz/artman/publish/index.shtml

 

[russ_watters]

Why do you call it a scam? I agree that it could be, but this could just be a matter of pioneers blazing trails. Do you have some specific information about this company or the people involved?

My definition of a "scam" may be a little tighter than most, but I call a company with 3 employees (iirc), no engineering expertise to be designing the most ambitious construction project yet conceived, no possible funding source, and thus no hope of ever building it, a scam.

That these guys may be honest but clueless is possible, but that doesn't make it any less of a scam for people who fell for it and gave them money.

We've discussed this before and I went through the company's website (which contained a lot of company, as it is required by law) - I'll look for the thread...

 

[Ivan Seeking]

My definition of a "scam" may be a little tighter than most, but I call a company with 3 employees (iirc), no engineering expertise to be designing the most ambitious construction project yet conceived, no possible funding source, and thus no hope of ever building it, a scam.

We've discussed this before and I went through the company's website (which contained a lot of company, as it is required by law) - I'll look for the thread...

The Company
EnviroMission Limited listed on the Australian Stock Exchange in August 2001 to develop highly innovative Solar Tower electricity generation projects for the Australian renewable energy market.

EnviroMission owns the exclusive Australian license to Solar Tower technology and is moving to commercialise the first of five planned Solar Tower power stations in Australia by 2008. A single power station development will have the capacity to supply renewable energy to more than one 200,000 households.

The company anticipates its unique technology will capture the nation’s attention and place EnviroMission at the forefront of renewable energy generation in Australia.

Our competitive advantage will be based on innovative world-class engineering solutions to deliver substantial environmental benefits from large-scale, grid connected renewable energy technology.

A dedicated team of executives and an Advisory Panel of eminent industry professionals support the EnviroMission’s experienced board of directors in the drive to position the company as a leader in renewable energy development.

Board of Directors

Roger Chalmers Davey, B.Bus, CPA, CFTP
Executive Chairman (also Chief Executive Officer)


Mr Davey was the driving force behind the acquisition of the license to Solar Tower technology and the formation of EnviroMission as the vehicle to develop the technology in Australia first. He has served on the board of directors since 2001, in the first instance as Executive Director until his appointment as Executive Chairman in June 2004. He has held the position of Chief Financial Officer prior to his appointment as Chief Executive Officer in November 2001.



Mr. Davey is also Executive Chairman of SolarMission Technologies, Inc (formerly Energen Global, Inc) based in the United States. SolarMission Technologies, Inc is the global license holder of Solar Tower technology and is a long-term investor and major shareholder in EnviroMission Limited.



Mr. Davey brings knowledge and experience in; commodity and financial risk management; exchange and regulatory market matters; and, equity and capital finance issues, to EnviroMission’s company and board objectives, and is a cornerstone of the ongoing relationship between the global license holder, SolarMission Technologies, Inc, and EnviroMission Limited

Mr. Davey holds qualifications of Bachelor of Business (Economics/Accounting), Member of Certified Practicing Accountants (CPA), Member of the Securities Institute of Australia (ASIA), and Member of the Finance and Treasury Association Limited (CFTP).

Martin Hallowell Thomas AM, FTSE, HonFIEAust, FAIE
Non-Executive Director

Mr. Thomas has served on the EnviroMission board since 2001 as a non-executive director and non-executive Chairman before resigning and continuing in his role as non-executive director.

As a former Principal of Sinclair Knight Merz, Mr. Thomas has over 30 years experience as a consulting engineer in the power and energy sector. He was the founding Managing Director of the Australian Co-operative Research Centre for Renewable Energy (ACRE) and Greenhouse Gas Abatement Technologies. He was Chairman of the Electricity Council of New South Wales for six years. Mr Thomas has been responsible for numerous power generation and energy management projects in Australia and overseas.

Mr Thomas has played and continues to play a leading role in many engineering and energy organisations. He is the immediate past President of the Australian Institute of Energy, a past President of The Institution of Engineers Australia, a past Vice-President of the Australian Academy of Technological Sciences and Engineering and past Chairman of the National Engineering Registration Board.

Previous Board appointments include Deputy Chairman of Australian Inland Energy and Water and Non Executive Director of the Tyree Group of Companies.

Stephen Graves, MBA Finance, BA Econ.
Non-Executive Director

Advisory Panel

An advisory panel of individuals eminent in their respective fields has been assembled to provide EnviroMission’s board of directors with constructive opinion, rigorous scrutiny and facilitation with high-level government, science, legal, commercial and industry consultations.

Panel member expertise includes:

Renewable energy generation
Energy industry issues and needs
Science, research and development
Civil engineering and construction
Major project development
Large-scale construction and manufacturing
Environmental and ecological issues
Community consultation
Regional infrastructure and economic impacts
Legal and commercial
Members of the Advisory Panel:

Martin Thomas AM - Chairman
The Hon. Peter Rae AO
Professor Ian Lowe AO
Dr. John Nutt AM
David Gallbally QC
Frank Spencer
Richard Farley
Advisory Panel Members’ Details

Martin Hallowell Thomas AM, FTSE, HonFIEAust, FAIE

Advisory Panel Chairman

Mr Thomas is also a non-executive director and former Chairman of EnviroMission. He is currently a director of Australian Inland Energy & Water and a director of the Tyree Group of Companies.

As a former Principal of Sinclair Knight Merz, Mr. Thomas has over 30 years experience as a consulting engineer in the power and energy sector. He was the founding managing director of the Australian Co-operative Research Centre for Renewable Energy (ACRE) and Greenhouse Gas Abatement Technologies. He was Chairman of the Electricity Council of New South Wales for six years. Mr Thomas has been responsible for numerous power generation and energy management projects in Australia and overseas.

Mr Thomas continues to play a leading role in many engineering and energy organisations. He is currently national president of the Australian Institute of Energy and is a past president of The Institution of Engineers Australia and a past vice-president of the Australian Academy of Technological Sciences and Engineering.

David Norman Galbally, QC

Mr Galbally is a leading Australian Queens Council practising out of Melbourne and specialising in criminal law, corporate compliance, commercial and trade practices, email and internet, white collar crime including breaches of Corporations Law, defrauding the Commonwealth/breaches of the Income Tax Act, and false and misleading prospectus prosecution.

He has appeared in all jurisdiction from Magistrates’ Court through to the High Court of Australia.

Mr Galbally serves on many boards of community and charitable organisations and is a partner of Melbourne based Browne and Co since July 2000.

The Hon. Peter Rae AO, BA LLB (Hons), FAICD, AIDM
Mr. Rae is a lawyer and the Director of Rae & Partners as is also the current Chairman of Hydro Tasmania since 1993. He is Chairman and Director to a number of other companies as well as Chairman of the Renewable Energy Generation Association.

Mr. Rae was the MHA (Lib) for the seat of Bass in Tasmania (1986-89) and has been a member of Federal Parliament for 18 years. He was a Minister for Education and The Arts, Industrial Relations, Deregulation, Technology and Youth Affairs. He has also been held Shadow Ministry portfolios for Industry and Commerce, Finance, Educations and Science.

He has chaired a variety of Senate Select Committees and is the author of many papers and chapters of books on constitutional administration and parliamentary law.

John Nutt AM BE, PhD, Hon DSc, HonFIEAust, FTSE, FIStructE, MICE
Dr John Nutt is an Australian engineer who led the international firm Ove Arup and Partners. He helped found the Australian practice of Ove Arup and Partners, now one of the leading firms of consulting engineers in the Asia - Pacific region, and was its Chairman for 25 years. He was also Chairman of The Arup Partnerships, London for four years.

Arup Australasia have been responsible for many of the tallest buildings in Australia, for many of the structures of the Sydney 2000 Olympic Games, and many significant buildings in Asia including the stadium at the 1998 Asian Games in Bangkok.

He helped pioneer the use of computers in engineering practice commencing with the design and analysis of the Sydney Opera House roof. Dr. Nutt oversaw the preparation of the Australian Standards for loads, load combinations, and wind forces on buildings and structures.

Prof. Ian Lowe AO, BSc., DPhil
Professor Lowe is a prominent commentator on public policy issues, with a special interest in sustainable energy. Named Australian Humanist of the Year in 1988, Dr Lowe has been a key advisor for many government bodies and non-government groups. He has acted as Director of the Australian Government’s Commission for the Future and he chaired the Advisory Council that produced Australia’s first national report on the state of the environment.

Dr Lowe has been acknowledged for his contribution to the understanding of science, technology and the environment by being named a Queensland Living Legend at the Premier’s Millennium Awards for Excellence. With more than 400 publications to his name, Dr Lowe is one of Australia’s most highly respected and sought after public speakers.

Richard Farley BA
Mr. Farley is the Managing Director of the Farley Consulting Group (FCG) specialising in the development of agreements at a community level, particularly in relation to native title issues.

Mr. Farley is currently the co-chair of the NSW State Reconciliation Committee and an Ambassador for Reconciliation. Mr Farley was appointed to chair the NSW Government Resource and Conservation Assessment Council at the beginning of 2000 and has chaired the Lake Victoria Advisory Council for the Murray Darling Basin Commission since 1997. He was also former Executive Director of the National Farmers’ Federation.

Mr. Farley has wide experience in finding common ground on issues and in negotiations from community to international level. During his career, Mr. Farley has exercised responsibility for the direction of national organisations and developed their business and financial plans.

Executive Management Team

EnviroMission’s executive management team is comprised of people who hold significant senior level experience and expertise with both government and private electricity enterprises within Australia’s energy market.

Roger Chalmers Davey, B.Bus, CPA, CFTP
Chief Executive Officer (Executive Chairman)

Mr. Davey has extensive knowledge of, and experience in; commodity and financial risk management; exchange and regulatory market matters; and, equity and capital finance issues and has been Chief Executive Officer since November 2004.

Ian David Riley, Dip Com; CA
Company Secretary

Mr. Riley's extensive background as a Chartered Accountant and principal of several accounting practices has provided him with broad experience of corporate fiduciary responsibilities, including initial public offerings, capital raisings, financial due diligence and audits of listed public companies.

Kim Forté, B Soc Sc

Communications Manager

Ms Forte has a background in socio-environmental science and worked extensively in corporate communications across diverse industry sectors, specifically involving public relations, government relations and investor relations. She also has experience in marketing, branding and research design and application.

Ms Forte is Vice-President of one of Australia’s leading environmental education organisations, Gould Group and has served on its board since 1996






Mr. Graves has served on the EnviroMission board as a non-executive director since 2001 and has also served the EnviroMission as Chief Executive Officer prior to his departure to the United States in November 2001.

He was a former Treasurer of Mobil Oil Australia and New Zealand, and President of the multi-billion dollar finance arm of the company. He was responsible for funding Mobil Corporation’s capital requirements in the Pacific Region.

Previously a senior consultant to Ernst & Young, Stephen provided expert advice on corporate finance, tax and financial systems. From 1998 to 2000 he provided senior financial advice to a Queensland government owned electricity retailer with an annual turnover of A$1 Billion.

Mr. Graves is also a consultant to SolarMission Technologies, Inc, in the United States.

Mr. Graves obtained his MBA in Finance at UCLA and a Bachelor of Arts (Cum Laude) in Economics at the University of Washington. He has been a member of the Finance & Treasury Association (CFTP).

Geoffrey Max Parkinson
Non-Executive Director

Mr. Parkinson has served on the EnviroMission board since 2001 as a non-executive director and former company secretary of Prudential West Ltd who merged with EnviroMission in 2001 to form EnviroMission Limited to list on the ASX in the same year.

Mr. Parkinson has over 30 years experience in the banking and finance sector in key executive director and management roles. He has contributed extensively to the development of the sector through his widely adopted training and development programmes.

Mr. Parkinson is founder and director of West Australian based Mortgage Originator entity FinanceCorp North Pty. Ltd.

Guoxiang Ma
Non-Executive Director

Mr Ma joined the EnviroMission board on the 8 June 2004, and resides in Shanghai in the Peoples Republic of China.

Mr Ma is the founding Chairman of Shanghai Xiang Jiang Industrial Co. Ltd., since 1994.

Shanghai Jiang Industrial Co. Ltd. has been involved in property development and the building sector since inception.

Mr Ma is also Chairman of Sunshine Energy (Aust.) Pty. Ltd., an investor in EnviroMission since November 2003 with the purpose of advancing EnviroMission’s commercial prospects in Australia and forming an important link in the development of Solar Tower power stations in China.

Yue Tang
Alternate Non-Executive Director for Mr. Guoxiang Ma (since 8 June, 2004)

Mr Tang is director and Secretary of Sunshine Energy (Aust.) Pty. Ltd. and Director of Shanghai Xiang Jiang Industrial Co. Ltd. Mr Tang is an engineer with experience in semiconductor research associated with solar power generation. Mr Tang is alternate non-executive director for Mr Ma who resides in China.

http://www.enviromission.com.au/

Okay, I believe you. It's a scam.

 

[russ_watters]

Ivan, only four of those guys (ok, so I thought it was 3...) are in the company. The "advisory panel" is just a bunch of names they assembled to make it look like they have experts working for them (and yeah, you fell for it). Go through their financials.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

And no engineers to boot...

Give me a break. You have absolutely no idea what relation or agreements these people may have. Obviously they are allowed to use the names of those listed. That alone constitutes a professional relationship. You're just guessing and taking pot shots as usual.

 

[russ_watters]

HERE is the website. They still have the Time article "Best inventions of 2002" up as the centerpiece of the site. It still says:

Within five years EnviroMission aims to be one of Australia’s leading producers of clean, green renewable energy.

I can only assume that's from August of 2002, when they were awarded "'State Significant Development' status".

So they're halfway there... how are they doing so far...?

-They still do not employ any engineers.
-They still do not have a meaningful amount of funding.

I think I said it before (dang, why can't I find that...) MY company, with 2 engineers, 4 AutoCAD drafters is in a better position to do the project than they are.

More later, got to go...

 

[russ_watters]

Give me a break. You have absolutely no idea what relation or agreements these people may have. Obviously they are allowed to use the names of those listed. That alone constitutes a professional relationship. You're just guessing and taking pot shots as usual.

Ivan, yes, I do know. One of the nice things about being a publicly traded company is that they are required by law to post an annual report. Its all there. I have to go, but I'll pull specifics for you this afternoon.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

At a glance this appears to be a perfectly normal way to approach such a massive effort. Just as many of my customers do, they are probably contracting out the work as its needed. You don't hire 500 people for a project that isn't even funded yet. This is a financial effort at this stage.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Main Entry: scam
Pronunciation: 'skam
Function: noun
Etymology: origin unknown
: a fraudulent or deceptive act or operation <an insurance scam>

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Scientists discover better way to generate power from thermal sources

HOUSTON -- Your car's engine loses 70 percent of its energy as waste heat -- but Australian and Oregon scientists may have figured out an efficient way not only to recover that lost energy, but to at long last capture the power-producing potential of geothermal heat.

The trick is to convert it to electricity -- and a promising way to accomplish this, the researchers have discovered, involves using extremely thin nanowires to potentially more than double the efficiency of thermoelectric materials.

"If all goes well, nanostructured thermoelectric devices may be practical for applications such as recycling of waste heat in car engines, on-chip cooling of computer microprocessors and silent, more compact domestic refrigerators," says Heiner Linke, a University of Oregon assistant professor of physics associated with ONAMI, the Oregon Nanoscience and Microtechnologies Institute. [continued]

http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2005-04/uoo-sdb040505.php

 

[hitssquad]

Scientists discover better way to generate power from thermal sources

What they might have discovered is an improvement upon the efficiency of thermoelectric materials. All they are talking about in regards to the use of these materials with car engines is creating some electrical power by placing the thermoelectric generators on the vehicle's exhaust pipes. Scientists have been experimenting with thermoelectric devices on exhaust pipes for years:
http://www.hi-z.com/websit07.htm

 

[Ivan Seeking]

From the link:

researchers have discovered, involves using extremely thin nanowires to potentially more than double the efficiency of thermoelectric materials.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

-They still do not employ any engineers.
-They still do not have a meaningful amount of funding.

It is all about the money and they are trying to sell the idea. This does not make it scam. It only means that like most projects, expectations exceed the reality of things. Obviously this is a hard sell. Like I said, you would have them hire people for an unfunded project. It doesn't work that real in the real world for projects of this size and risk.

All that you can say is that they have not met their goals.