Realizing you're gay: What is meant by that?

[Curious3141]

Arildno, do you enjoy Clive Barker's writing ? I enjoy his horror, and also found his depictions of homosexual coupling to be fascinatingly descriptive and evocative (like in his story "In the Hills, the Cities"). I just assumed he was very empathetic. Of course, later he "came out". In hindsight, it should've been obvious.

 

[arildno]

Arildno, do you enjoy Clive Barker's writing ? I enjoy his horror, and also found his depictions of homosexual coupling to be fascinatingly descriptive and evocative (like in his story "In the Hills, the Cities"). I just assumed he was very empathetic. Of course, later he "came out". In hindsight, it should've been obvious.

I have read quite a bit of Clive Barker, yes; he's a great writer (I particularly enjoyed "WeaveWorld").
His "gay sensibility" is positively pounding throughout his works.
As I hope to show, is how such a sensibility can effectively be "born" out of realizing you're gay, but at the same time show that if we are to be really strict in our categories, it isn't a sensibility necessarily restricted to gays, it is just that the curious development of the gay mind will more easily develop along that track, i.e, it will be more prevalent among gays than straights.

 

[arildno]

Okay, I'll think I'll start sketching what I mean by diverging mentalities (finally).
These are, of course, only nuances, but all the same, I think there is some validity to it.
I'll start with a tendency in the "gay mentality", and weave into that how I sense the straight mind seems to work.

Now, having that experience of prison walls shattering about you, and suddenly realizing what it means to live, rather than to spend your existence as some pale wraith wandering aimlessly on a bleak shore (which is how your former "life" now appears), wouldn't it seem quite natural that an extraordinarily strong commitment is born that you will never, ever go back there, you will do your utmost to prevent the onset of deadening your own senses?

Furthermore, you will accept with a sense of gratefulness any flickering sensation that enlivens you and invigorates you.
This does not (necessarily) mean that you will not engage yourself in routine-work or chores, i.e, an aversion towards being "serious", but it does mean that you might wish to develop a skill of enjoyment at doing "serious" things.
That is, you are always "on watch" for any opportunity which might arise by which you might feel invigorated.
To me, for example, it seems that straights tend to the opinion "work is to be its own satisfaction", i.e, the invigorating source sustaining you through the work ought to be the work itself.
But to me at least, why can't say the hum of a bee, or a caught strain of a melody downstairs be sources of invigoration in your work as well?
It seems to me that gays tend to flick out their tongues to catch a clear drop of honeyed dew, savour it taste for a half-second, and then, invigorated, delve back into their work again.
It is, to my mind, nothing unserious or insincere about such attitudes, and it certainly won't necessarily reduce their work performance, it might enhance it.

 

[Astronuc]

From what I sense, it seems to me that women want to change their lover over time into that gentle, considerate lover, not have him from the very start.
I would think that women do want the impetuousness, impulsiveness and fierce, male passion for her in their lover during the beginning of their relationship (and that is something no gay man can ever provide her with).
That she also wants to get him under her thumb over the years is, of course self-evident..

Gee, you're brave with that last statement.

I would think that women want both simultaneously - the gentle, kind and considerate gentleman, who can be the impetuous and passionate lover - at the right time. But that's from a male perspective and I would appreciate the womens' perspectives.

Of course, that could also be the attitude of some males to woman. I think such an attitude to other people is destructive/counter-productive to a relationship.

I have never think that a woman would wish to have a man under her thumb - at least, I have never felt I was under any woman's thumb.

I always looked for relationships of mutuality and reciprocity - where both are equal partners.

 

[Astronuc]

Now, I'll briefly sketch what I mean by "divergent mentalities" (not in this post as such, but a necessary introduction).
In order to do so, I have to go back and describe in some further detail how it was for me to stand "outside" those roaring fires, or as Moonbear put it, having my emotions "bottled up".

Now, some has probably wondered; HOW could I possibly deceive myself in this manner?
For example, if I were in the physical presence of a sexy boy, wouldn't my clammy hands, the rhythm of my heartbeat, the way I breathed, and how my hands trembled (and not the least, how my mind would be) just scream at me in completely unambigious manner that I was in love with him?

The answer in my case is that I never, ever felt any such symptoms when I was in the actual physical presence of them!
My heart-beat was perfectly normal, my hands didn't sweat overly, and I had no problem whatsoever turn my mind away from him.
The only whiff of sentiment I actually felt in the actual presence of these boys, was that I repeatedly caught myself looking at them, admiring their hair, the earlobe, how the held the pencil they were scribbling with and so on.
That is, all I felt in their actual presence was a mild, pleasing contentment in looking at their features. It was not at all difficult breaking my gaze, even though I might catch myself doing the same some time later.

Effectively, as I see it now, I held my body in an iron grip; it was not to feel any such symptoms at these times.
My emotions and bodily reactions were effectively delayed, and it was only at night-time, by myself when I visited that fire-chamber that I reveled in the play of the roaring emotions in me.

arildno - if I change 'boy' to 'girl/woman', and and otherwise change 'gay' to 'straight' and 'homosexual' to 'heterosexual', my experience with regard to realizing my sexuality (as regards females) is not so different than your experience (as regards males).

I was reserved - I held myself in check. So you and I are not that different or divergent. I think it more the case that my situation is considered 'normal' by the majority in the culture, while your situation is not.

On the other hand, being gay is 'normal' for a gay person, as much as being me is 'normal' for me.

An amusing anecdote - I did once experience a situation when I had sweaty palms, nausea and my pulse rate hit 180 beats/minute. That was when I asked a certain girl to go with me to my graduation prom (dance) in high school - just before I phoned her. That was so unusual, I was stunned by the experience. Fortunately, she did say yes.

 

[Clausius2]

But, you are simply spoken, God's gift to women.

Thanks man . But you should let them know it. It seems they haven't realized of that yet.

 

[arildno]

I have never think that a woman would wish to have a man under her thumb - at least, I have never felt I was under any woman's thumb.

I think your wife is quite satisfied at how you've turned out..

Anyhow, yes, what I describe ARE nuances rather than complete and total opposites; however I do think that some features will spread out more prevalently in one part of the population than in the other. That does not mean there won't be any individuals on the other side of the fence who haven't had rather similar experiences.

Human psychology is damned tough..

 

[arildno]

Thanks man . But you should let them know it. It seems they haven't realized of that yet.

The first step is to realize it yourself and ease up. Don't act desperate as if you need her to give some meaning to your life (that signifies you haven't got anything to give her back), be confident in that you, exactly you, have more than enough to give her, be generous in giving of yourself towards her.

Of course, rudeness is an absolute no-no, but through your posts at various times it is totally obvious you would never, ever be rude and insensitive towards a woman.
I wish you the very best of luck, you deserve that.

 

[Astronuc]

I think your wife is quite satisfied at how you've turned out..

Anyhow, yes, what I describe ARE nuances rather than complete and total opposites; however I do think that some features will spread out more prevalently in one part of the population than in the other. That does not mean there won't be any individuals on the other side of the fence who haven't had rather similar experiences.

Human psychology is damned tough..

My wife is a psychology major, so that probably helps.

 

[arildno]

My wife is a psychology major, so that probably helps.

I shrivel at the thought of her..





Not really; but it was a nice and stereotypical statement from my part, don't you think?

 

[Astronuc]

I took it as such -

She is very cool, and a lot of fun.

And most importantly - she still puts up with me after 25 years (married 23+ years).

 

[arildno]

Yes, she's made a very cute teddy-bear out of you, hasn't she?

Now, she can have you strictly for fun, none of that reserved guy left, right?

 

[Astronuc]

I don't know about cute, but I am cuddly.

We have our passionate moments!

 

[AKG]

Okay, I'll continue, and here's the first point which I believe is quite differently experienced between straights and gays:
When a gay's feelings starts "awakening, then these are practically always regarded as "other", not parts of your self; they are not regarded as signs that you yourself is changing in any fundamental or frightening way.
You yourself doesn't change a bit by this new mental content.
(That is how it felt for me)

This is I believe, quite different from how the pubescent straight feels, as if she (or he) doesn't know herself anymore, she knows she's changing into someone else than who she was before.
It is, however, she who has these feelings, they are her.

Have a totally misperceived straights here?

Probably. In my experience, it was nothing strange. Actually, I think being straight, you're surrounded by a lot more straight influences. You know some things about sex and stuff like that before you actually go through puberty, so the change doesn't really seem like a distinct change. We're probably conditioned to want to have sex with girls before we actually feel the instinctual desire, so when we do, it's not as shocking.

 

[arildno]

Probably. In my experience, it was nothing strange. Actually, I think being straight, you're surrounded by a lot more straight influences. You know some things about sex and stuff like that before you actually go through puberty, so the change doesn't really seem like a distinct change. We're probably conditioned to want to have sex with girls before we actually feel the instinctual desire, so when we do, it's not as shocking.

My point was that you were never in doubt that your feelings were YOUR feelings, however much they changed (or possibly, didn't change) you. (Were you in doubt?)

I thought mine weren't mine, and that's the basic point I was trying to convey.

 

[AKG]

I see. Yeah, I think I would have felt them to be my feelings.

 

[Astronuc]

My point was that you were never in doubt that your feelings were YOUR feelings, however much they changed (or possibly, didn't change) you. (Were you in doubt?)

I thought mine weren't mine, and that's the basic point I was trying to convey.

OK, now I understand the point clearly. My feelings have always been my feelings - although I certainly questioned whether my feelings where right or appropriate (well I question everything anyway - Asperger's perhaps - busy mind) - they were nevertheless my feelings.

I'll check with some friends to see if they had similar experience.

 

[arildno]

It was certainly a bit extremely put from my side. A slightly more accurate way of saying it is, is that what I did feel when I allowed myself to feel was "not really" homosexual feelings, but in some rather convoluted manner heterosexual feelings.

I.e, the unwaveringly clear feelings were seen by me, in the explanatory aftermath, as "untrue", they were always some sort of disguised heterosexual feelings.
Thus, the homosexual "surface" feelings weren't really mine at all; they were sham feelings that didn't truly belong to or define ME (even though they excited me deeply).
That is, I refused to integrate the unabashedly homosexual MENTAL CONTENT into my self-conception. That content hadn't truly in any essential manner anything to do with me. It was something "other" which would surely disappear once Miss Right made her entrance (and in my mind, those fantasies were "truly" signalling her coming in a disguised manner, rather than that they told me what they actually told me, namely that I was sexually attracted to other boys).

It is, for example, perfectly possible to regard yourself as a normal heterosexual boy even as you yelp in delight at the thought of another boy playing the "active" part, and that the excitement you feel of you and him together is just a disguised message of your own heterosexuality. That's how deep self-deception may work, how thoroughly it can twist your mind.


It may well be that other gays didn't manage to fool themselves so far; I'm not particularly intelligent..

 

[JamesU]

INTRODUCTION:
As a gay man, I've often wondered why it seems so difficult for straights to understand what we mean by having a "gay identity" that to me is a perfectly natural, keen sense of being; an abiding tune if you like, a humming in me at all times.

The almost universal reaction from straights is that we mean something like having explicit sexual fantasies about members of our own sex, i.e, that we are referring to our specific mode of arousal.
By this reaction, straights have totally missed the mark, or at least, deeply misconstrued the whole issue.

Another typical reaction is that perhaps we gays go about with a sense of being different, i.e, that we have a sort of perpetual outcast feeling within us that drives us into each others arms to huddle together for some time and gain respite from a hostile world around us.
This last attempt from (usually sympathetic, but pitying) straights to understand us is however, utterly false:
Rather than being an ever-present sense of inadequacy, my "gayness" is a sense akin to that of achieved wholeness and self-sufficiency, that is, intimately and irrevocably entwined with my sense of independent adulthood, and yes, pride and self-confidence.


I am as utterly and totally gay when I inhale a fresh batch of cool morning air as when I am deeply intimate with another man.
Such a statement will most usually be met with headshakes and stares of blank incomprehension from straights.

To me, at least, it has been very puzzling that there doesn't seem to exist a similar sense of "straightness".
Lately, however, as I've pondered these various issues again, I think I've found a way to describe this, and I hope you'll join me and read on since I think I've also figured out a few bits about you straights which might be of interest to yourselves.

I have headed the thread with a reference to the moment when you REALIZE you're gay, perhaps the most defining moment in a gay man's life, and that should not be confused with the moments you start having sexual fantasies about or encounters with boys/men, nor about coming out as gay.

As I see it now, gays and straights go through totally different maturation processes towards adulthood leading to quite strongly divergent mentalities, which makes "understanding" very hard, and probably can't ever be achieved fully.

So, in the spirit of attempting the impossible anyway, my next post will involve describing these maturation processes as I see it now.
I will, of course, be delighted if someone actually reads this thread and posts intelligent comments, even if it should happen that those comments reduces my beautiful theory about distinct maturation processes to shambles..

(Perhaps this thread ought to be moved from GD to "Social Sciences", or possibly, the philosophy forums)

I was shocked to read this post. arildno just didn't seem like the person to have that um...lifestyle.

 

[hypatia]

Most of my friends who are gay, have known they were gay from the time they were small children. I know for some it was a struggle to conform to hetero society, tho they gave it there best shot. I can only imagine how hard life was for them at that time. Today they move around society with relative ease, but sill keep in mind, of the places they must avoid.
We have a gay couple who moved onto my block a few years ago. And my other neighbor was so stupid as to say to me, " As long as they stay away form my children, I'm fine with it". I had to laugh, her children are female.

 

[Moonbear]

I think what Moonbear is getting at is the fact that a gay man does not behave aggressively toward a woman, in general, but rather behaves in a gentlemanly way. On the other hand, I get the impression that far too many heterosexual men behave in a more aggressive manner.

At the risk of generalizing, I think single women are looking for that 'perfect gentleman' with whom they can develop a 'secure' relationship in which they can release that primal scream (I'm using arildno's words here). This is the basic mating pattern. If a woman is going to invest in a relationship in which she will bear children, I expect that she will want the man to be around for a long time - i.e. lifetime.

Well, since I seem to have been unclear, rather than leaving anyone guessing, my friend's gay boyfriend was the "perfect gentleman" in that he was content to hold hands, go shopping, listen to her, go out on all sorts of fun dates, and never once pressured her to have sex. Well, it's pretty obvious why once it was revealed that he's gay, he had no sexual feelings for her, just that deep fondness Arildno talks about.

With heterosexual men, even when they are being gentlemen and not pressuring a woman into anything, there is still a sort of sexual tension present, something in the flirtation, the way they hold hands, etc, that is apparent to a woman once she gets to know him (it's not apparent immediately, at least not to me). For example, when you hold hands, a straight man might give a woman a little squeeze or caress her palm, or entwine his fingers with hers, but if a woman holds hands with a gay man, it's like holding hands with another woman or your brother or father, you may playfully swing your arms, but your hands are just there, no squeezes or tickles or rubbing. But, to a high school girl who doesn't know any better yet, he's just a refreshing break from all the rude boys who try to get away with anything they can before they've matured enough to know that's not what women want in a long-term relationship.

 

[ron damon]

Realizing you're gay: What is meant by that?

that you have very bad taste? Frankly, I'm surprised even women find men attractive

 

[Astronuc]

Well, since I seem to have been unclear, rather than leaving anyone guessing, my friend's gay boyfriend was the "perfect gentleman" in that he was content to hold hands, go shopping, listen to her, go out on all sorts of fun dates, and never once pressured her to have sex.

Ah, that's the way I behaved with women when I was single. I never pressured any woman to have sex, actually it was the other way around for me - the girls/women were the ones who initiated physical contact or mentioned anything sexual.

I wanted no ambiguity in a relationship - I wanted the girl/woman, at the time, to know without a doubt that I was not interested in her solely for sex, but I was interested in her as a whole person - particularly with respect to her thoughts and feelings. A relationship between a man and woman is so much more than sex, and in fact being in a mature marriage (in my case, now with two teenagers) sex is a small component.

When I was single, my issue was and still is, that sex belongs within a committed relationship. I waited for the right woman to come along, and my wife has been my one and only initimate partner.

With heterosexual men, even when they are being gentlemen and not pressuring a woman into anything, there is still a sort of sexual tension present, something in the flirtation, the way they hold hands, etc, that is apparent to a woman once she gets to know him (it's not apparent immediately, at least not to me). For example, when you hold hands, a straight man might give a woman a little squeeze or caress her palm, or entwine his fingers with hers, but if a woman holds hands with a gay man, it's like holding hands with another woman or your brother or father, you may playfully swing your arms, but your hands are just there, no squeezes or tickles or rubbing.

When I was in my early teens (actually pre-teens as well), the girls were the ones who initiated 'making out', and that was as far as it went. However, in my late teenage years and early 20's, I was always careful not to encourage any woman - well, that is, until I met the woman I married.

 

[arildno]

I was shocked to read this post. arildno just didn't seem like the person to have that um...lifestyle.

What the heck do you think you know about my "lifestyle"??
I haven't revealed a damn thing about how I live my personal life, nor will I ever do, because that is personal on a level I'm not interested in revealing.
To say that you are "gay" is a lot less revealing about your person than to say you've been married for 25 years.

That you think it is very revealing is because you go about with a lot of fantasies and prejudices in your head which you think describes how "they" live.

 

[arildno]

that you have very bad taste? Frankly, I'm surprised even women find men attractive

Give me a sharp, jagged, angled body not quite fitting together due to all that ferocity straining to get free. What should I do with a soft, curved pillow-body seamlessly joined together?

 

[arildno]

Most of my friends who are gay, have known they were gay from the time they were small children. I know for some it was a struggle to conform to hetero society, tho they gave it there best shot. I can only imagine how hard life was for them at that time. Today they move around society with relative ease, but sill keep in mind, of the places they must avoid.
We have a gay couple who moved onto my block a few years ago. And my other neighbor was so stupid as to say to me, " As long as they stay away form my children, I'm fine with it". I had to laugh, her children are female.

Oh, I've known I've been DIFFERENT from other boys all my remembered life (say from the age of 4-5).
Now, I was never a girlish boy, I could never understand this fascination/repulsion thing other boys seemed to have towards girls.
I was totally indifferent to girls, and wanted to spend my time being with boys, like playing cowboy/indian, police/robber, football and all sorts of other boys' things. My boys' world was complete, and I was rather puzzled that the other boys seemed to need some sort of contact with girls as well.
And yes, there were times as a child when I thought of one friend as a more "special" friend than the others, even though I would be hard put to tell why I thought him special and wanted to be with him a lot more.

So, in that sense, now in the aftermath, I would say that I've been gay all my life, even as a child.

 

[arildno]

Now, although it was a few other things I would have liked to have mentioned ,particularly on how I perceive straights to tend to think and the whole biology issue, I think it is about time to close off this particular thread.
There is, however, one rather important issue I'd like to broach, namely how different the roads to maturity gays experienced due to their different individualities.

I have, naturally enough, the best (least bad?) insight in how my road was; I would like to sketch how this contrasts with, but also has some similarities with how many other gays have experienced growing up.

Essentially, whereas my road was that of having to REALIZE I was gay, for many others, the dominant aspect was always that of ACCEPTING they were gay.
(And the individual gay's road will be some sort of mixture in between)
That is, whereas I had effected a sort of dissociation between my self and my emotions and was as it were, also totally out of touch with my own body, many other gays knew exactly what they were, how they felt, how their bodies reacted and struggled mightily to effect that dissociation I had undergone. That is, they were living in an emotional turmoil with intense, clearly recognized sexual desires coupled with bouts of severe self-condemnation.
For all purposes, they were already burning in hell, and wanted to get out of there by any means possible.
Finally though, many find out that it is their fundamental nature they are struggling with, being gay is absolutely natural to them, and that to try to be something else could at best be a state of self-castration (i.e, effectively where I was), or remain in permanent pain.

Note that a similarity between my own experience and these folks' experience is that when we finally understand or accept ourselves, the most striking, forceful aspect for us is how SELF-EVIDENT it becomes to us that we are gay, how deeply NATURAL it is to us.
That realization, or acceptance if you like, the experience of the self-evidence of our gay nature is, I think a lot stronger integrated in our adult identity sense than the straightness is integrated in heterosexuals.


You never went through this weird type of individual struggles against your own nature, you blossomed in a gradual manner quite distinct from the manner of gays.

Thus, I think it is natural, for example, that straights tend to think of their own sexuality as a distinct aspect of their own personalities (the most cherished flowers in them, perhaps), whereas gays have a tendency to think of their sexuality more like their life's essence even when sex is the furthest thing from their mind.

That, basically, was what I meant with "divergent mentalities", or at least, some of it.

 

[Zygotic Embryo]

" i can tell you straight away"

lmao @ the wordplay

I understand what you mean man


Some people are just to damn caught up in themselves to look at someone, and identify them as gay, instead of getting to know you and see who you really are, i mean there's a big diffrence between gay and straight men.. but it's skin deep that's it. ( unless it's sexual lol )

I knowing a couple gay men, and I have no problem just chillen and hanging out with them in public. Cause there fun to be around..and I am not classifying them, when i say " there".


I respect your ability to be so opened with people about these issues

stay up.

 

[arildno]

I'm glad you're mature enough to see that there are as many differences among gays as there are among straight, and that you can enjoy yourself in either 's company (within limits, of course..)

However, it might still be the case that there are some personality traits which are more commmonly found on one side of the fence than the other, and that that might be related to different experiences in growing up.

For example, take the case of gay men being "funny", jesters and such like.
It might be that since many gay men have had rather harrowing experiences in growing up, this may have born a commitment of having "a good time" on average stronger than that of "normal" straights. That is, they work harder at getting a good time, on average.

Note that there wouldn't really be anything necessarily "gay" about this; it is not uncommon that persons who have gone through a harrowing, life-threatening illness and who got well again say that they are now really appreciating what they were about to lose, and that they become more committed at living a "good" life than they were before.

 

[fuzzyfelt]

Very courageous, and I can imagine your relief.

there are some personality traits

One of my gay friends rues missing out on the neatness trait.

 

[fuzzyfelt]

Can you tell me one thing, it seems to me that the proportion of exceptional people throughout history (eg some of my favourites, Leonardo, Michealangello, Caravaggio...) and today who prefer their own sex far outweighs the given distribution of gay/straights, am I stereotyping or do you think this is right, and if so why?

 

[arildno]

Can you tell me one thing, it seems to me that the proportion of exceptional people throughout history (eg some of my favourites, Leonardo, Michealangello, Caravaggio...) and today who prefer their own sex far outweighs the given distribution of gay/straights, am I stereotyping or do you think this is right, and if so why?

I think that gay men in particular have to a larger extent than the rest of the population cultivated their ability to take a delight in simple, sensory perceptions.
With that, I mean that you will more often find that gays are likely to take a (ultra-)short break from what they do, and savour say, a fresh scent in the air, humming a long a bit on a caught strain from a melody coming up from downstairs, and that they get invigorated by these short breaks before delving back in what they are doing.

This ability to let yourself be invigorated by whatever small break of monotony you experience can be regarded as the "constructive" side of the often levelled charge against gays that they are "flighty, scatter-brained".
It doesn't at all have to mean an inability to do solid work, but it might certainly mean, on occasion, that doing solid work becomes less of an onerous "duty".


In so far as this is true, I think it might have something to do with that a "healed" gay man (i.e, who has realized and accepted he's gay after an harrowing youth) is perhaps more likely to cherish those moments of happiness he senses present themselves to him.

Furthermore, I think this enhanced receptivity to sensory beauty might well be regarded as a sort of "aestheticism".
I think, however, it is more true to say that gays are more naturally inclined to appreciate art, rather than to say that they are better at making art.

 

[fuzzyfelt]

I was thinking of exceptional in other ways besides art, just that art naturally springs to my mind. I should have listed non-artists too.
I do take your point regarding gay aestheticism. Prior to reading your thread I had idly put this down to diverted creativity- creating masterpieces or creatively enjoying them, rather than creating kids!

 

[arildno]

. Prior to reading your thread I had idly put this down to diverted creativity- creating masterpieces or creatively enjoying them, rather than creating kids!

You know, I hadn't thought of that angle!
It might well be something in it..

 

[lwymarie]

I don't care about the gender of ppl... as I live in the Net...