Religious Differences with Family: Advice for a 16-Year-Old

[rootX]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kAIpRRZvnJg
I have posted this before but seems appropriate for this thread.

 

[GreatEscapist]

I disagree with basically everything you just said. The biggest point I disagree with, though, is that 16 year olds best learn by "shutting up and listening, and not forming an opinion of their own." That's a TERRIBLE way to learn in my opinion.

Nonono. They should get opinions, but there's a difference between expressing their opinions, and letting kids think that their opinions are the only ones, which IS what they usually do. It's kind of more of a precaution than not letting them think for themselves.

 

[Jack21222]

Straw man. You shoot yourself in the foot as a debater. You want us to take you seriously, right?

Lets look at two scenarios, and you tell me the difference between them.

1) A teenager tells his parents he is an atheist. The parents insist that he goes to church against his will in an attempt to rid him of his atheism. They refuse to accept his beliefs.

2) A teenager tells his parents he is gay. The parents insist that he goes to a psychotherapist against his will in an attempt to "cure" his homosexuality. They refuse to accept his sexual orientation.

To me, it seems that scenario 1 is commonly accepted, but scenario 2 is taboo. Maybe I'm wrong about that.

 

[Stratosphere]

Try telling them that you understand their desire to go to church, but that you no longer believe in it and would rather not go.

Avoid discussions of who is right and who is wrong. Don't belittle their beliefs or feelings. This is about your beliefs only. Hopefully they will respect your decision.

I told my mom (a devout Catholic) that I couldn't go anymore when I was 11. She was absolutely fine.

Good luck to you.

I could try that but I don't think I'll get away without explaining my self thoroughly. I would have to tell them why I didn't believe it anymore.

Don't tell your parents that you think their beliefs are stupid. Simply state that you would prefer not to go to church. You might consider an exception for certain holidays.

If one wants one's parents to respect one's beliefs, then reciprocate. I suspect one's parents might enjoy the community and friendships, as well as the spirituality, of the church.

At 16 I simply told my parents that I would not be attending church. Prior to that, my brother and I would go to church with my mom, grab a cup of coffee and a donut, and then walk out the door on the other side of the building, return to the car, and spend an hour listening to American Top 40 with Casey Kasem. It was pretty decent during the early 70's. Then we found a better rock station.

I won't tell them I think their beliefs are stupid, but it may come across that way. I have really grown to detest religion. Maybe it's because when I realized that the stuff couldn't be true it was when I was growing to be more and more religious. I went into a period where I was in cognitive dissonance. It really pissed me off that I was born into the religion and not given a choice. Ever since then I've found more and more reasons to dislike the church.

I agree with your first piece of advice.

The OP is basically saying it is more trouble than it is worth to try to argue about it, and so already knows what to do: Suck it up and deal with it for the next year or two or 5 until you no longer live with them on a consistent basis (ie, when you go to college).

I think I just may have to force my self to church to avoid the confrontation. I have a good relationship with my parents and really wouldn't want to ruin it. I've told them I didn't believe a lot of the stuff in the bible and they didn't take it too well (a while ago).

Not everyone's parents are so understanding (caution, contains some swearing)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=<object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/P8Aq00yJSxo&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/P8Aq00yJSxo&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>

Don't worry my parents aren't nearly as bad as that.

You seem to have a strange belief that until a person is 17 years 364 days old, they're a "child" and not entitled to form an opinion about anything, but the instant they turn 18, they magically become adults.

I consider myself to have a mental age far above my chronological age. This isn't something I took lightly.

 

[Jimmy Snyder]

When I was 16 I attended synagogue every Friday night, while my parents never attended services. It was totally a social thing for me as I had a lot of friends who also went. The ceremony consisted of dull routine prayers and hymns, interupted by a swell sermon as our Rabbi was good at it. My beliefs had nothing to do with it.

 

[rasmhop]

By the time they turn 18, they should be smart enough to know how to express their opinion.

The age at which they are smart enough is highly variable. Some are 10, others are 25. Also it isn't a binary switch. As you start to become more mature and critically thinking you become better at forming your own worldview. If you have never had any experience of forming or arguing about opinions until you are 18, then you won't be ready to express your opinion when you are 18 because it doesn't magically develop overnight. It slowly grows and you refine it over a period of many years.

Nonono. They should get opinions, but there's a difference between expressing their opinions, and letting kids think that their opinions are the only ones, which IS what they usually do. It's kind of more of a precaution than not letting them think for themselves.

I totally agree that kids should get a wider perspective and realize that there are different ways of looking at the world. However this is mainly the parents responsibility to show them. Having your kid go to church every Sunday, and considering other views and independent thought taboo is not a good way to stimulate an open mind. How many Christian parents take their children to mosques? How many Christian parents are open to the idea that they may be wrong? Kids are often much more open than their parents.


I consider the approach my parents took to be good (but of course I'm biased as they taught me to appreciate their approach). They informed me from a young age that they believed in (a Christian) god, but didn't necessarily expect me to do the same. They urged me to remain agnostic until I could see things in a greater perspective and even then consideration of alternatives is always healthy. They told me a bit about religion and when they realized that I wasn't really all that receptive they bought some short accounts of various religions and informed me that they were on our bookcase in case I was curious about any of them. If I wanted it to be a personal consideration I could just read them when I was home alone. Around age 12 I informed them that I considered myself an atheist and they were fine with it. We still get along fine. Parents should help you form your own views in an informed manner; not impose their own views on you.


Stratosphere: You're in a pretty bad situation unfortunately. Only you can predict the outcomes of you "coming out" as a non-believer. Some parents are surprisingly receptive while others can't tolerate such differences. I'd probably suck it up and just go to church as I wouldn't want a bad relationship with my parents (at least while I still lived with them). Maybe try dropping small hints to see what their reaction would be. It's sad that it has to be this way, but unfortunately sometimes you have to choose between the lesser of two evils.

rootX: Nice video. Though I'm afraid it's probably a case of preaching to the choir. People already supportive of independent thought will like it, and people stuck in their views will dismiss it as inapplicable to their case.

I really don't see why people consider kids Christians, Muslims, Atheists, or whatever until they have expressed the fact that they believe in this. These are all beliefs and not something you sign up for or is born into. If I had a kid I wouldn't go around talking about how he is a Marxist, but people do that with religions. Children are by default agnostic.

 

[GeorginaS]

Children are by default agnostic.

Nah. Children by default subscribe to magical thinking.

 

[Jack21222]

Nah. Children by default subscribe to magical thinking.

On the other hand, one of the posters here made a thread about his niece who devised a scientific way to determine whether or not there is a tooth fairy. We also need to be careful with how we use the word "children." In this thread, the same word has been used to describe 7 year olds and 17 year olds. That term seems overbroad.

 

[MotoH]

Why? 7 year olds and 17 year olds both believe they know everything they need to know.

 

[DaveC426913]

You seem to be excessively biased towards parents ...

What a strange thing to say.
It's like saying "you seem excessively biased towards lawfulness", or "you seem excessively biased toward good health".

This is not a "two sides of the table" situation. The parents are in charge of instilling values in their children until such time as the children are mature enough to go on their own.

Lets look at two scenarios, and you tell me the difference between them.

Do you know what a straw man is? It is an attempt to shift a weak argument to a stronger argument. If you have an argument about religion, argue it. If you wish instead to argue about homosexuality, start a new thread.

 

[DaveC426913]

Why? 7 year olds and 17 year olds both believe they know everything they need to know.

Yup. Which is why virtually all societies recognize that it is the parents' job to guide their values.

I think we all agree that parents start off making all the decisions for their children (no one here is going to argue that a 3-year-old does not know best about playing on the stove top, or poking a cat with a sharp stick).

The only thing we do not agree on is at what age the child is mature enough to make certain decisions for himself.

Is there anyone who disagrees with this?
(I'm hoping if we reach consensus on this we can re-establish a new baseline for the discussion.)

 

[waht]

The only thing we do not agree on is at what age the child is mature enough to make certain decisions for himself.

Are 22 year old suicide bombers considered mature and able to make their own decisions?

 

[rootX]

Yup. Which is why virtually all societies recognize that it is the parents' job to guide their values.

I think we all agree that parents start off making all the decisions for their children (no one here is going to argue that a 3-year-old does not know best about playing on the stove top, or poking a cat with a sharp stick).

The only thing we do not agree on is at what age the child is mature enough to make certain decisions for himself.

Is there anyone who disagrees with this?
(I'm hoping if we reach consensus on this we can re-establish a new baseline for the discussion.)

Would a +30 years old always make wiser/more mature decisions than a 3 years old?

 

[Monique]

Children under 18 need to respect their parent's opinions, but parents also need to respect the opinion of the child. I can't believe people think it would be normal to force a certain opinion on an adolescent.

The time when you are an adolescent is very important in your transition to become an adult: you need to be able to make your own decisions. The role of the parents should be to guide those decisions and set certain boundaries.

 

[rasmhop]

Yup. Which is why virtually all societies recognize that it is the parents' job to guide their values.

I think we all agree that parents start off making all the decisions for their children (no one here is going to argue that a 3-year-old does not know best about playing on the stove top, or poking a cat with a sharp stick).

The only thing we do not agree on is at what age the child is mature enough to make certain decisions for himself.

Is there anyone who disagrees with this?
(I'm hoping if we reach consensus on this we can re-establish a new baseline for the discussion.)

I disagree somewhat. Firstly there is no universal age where a child is mature. Age does not measure maturity even though it's often correlated. It's like asking at what color food is cooked. It really depends on the type of food. Similarly the age depends on the type of individual and the kind of upbringing he has had.

Secondly it's not as binary as you make it out to be. There are several approaches to teaching a kid not to touch the stove. At one extreme you may let him actually touch it and learn that it's hot (I do not recommend this). At the other extreme you just take him away from the stove or scold him every time he approaches it. However it's possibly to explain to a kid that it hurts if he touches the stove, and then even many young kids have the ability to deduce that they do not want to touch the stove. You give them information about the world (touching a stove hurts) and tries to help them make their choices depending on this. Of course if the child in question decides to touch the stove you should of course intervene. For some decisions you need to be a bit more mature, but at an age of about 10 I expect the average child can handle most decision if guided by their parents (as in the parents support the child, try not to be biased, and provide the necessary information to make the right choice).

Sometimes you let a child make part of a decision. Sometimes you make the child think he made the decision by himself. Sometimes you explain why one decision would be bad.

 

[Dembadon]

The only thing we do not agree on is at what age the child is mature enough to make certain decisions for himself.

Are 22 year old suicide bombers considered mature and able to make their own decisions?

I believe "certain" is an important element in Dave's claim. He did not suggest all decisions made by an individual are wise.

Would a +30 years old always make wiser/more mature decisions than a 3 years old?

Again, what kind of decisions?

 

[DaveC426913]

I disagree somewhat. Firstly there is no universal age where a child is mature. Age does not measure maturity

Woah, woah woah. I never said anything about any unilateral age. That will of course, be the next thing under discussion.


I am simply trying to establish that we all concede that, at some point in a child's life, its parents make all its decisions for it, and that these decisions are downloaded* one-by-one to the child at some appropriate time.

The only issue in contention here then, is at what point any given decision is handed to the child.


*downloaded like financial budget responsibilities, not like software. We get that a lot here in Ontario.

 

[zomgwtf]

I have to say I disagree with you Dave, it's not the parents job to instill any such values into their children. It's the parents job to help the children make their own INFORMED DECISIONS.

That's at least what being a parent means to me. Sure parents do make decisions for children at a young level of maturity but this is not the same as saying that the parents are merely MAKING the decisions for the children. Hopefully they are fully explaining such decisions and the consequences etc. such that as the child grows they can continue to make their own personal informed decisions on the matter, regardless of if it is in line with what the parents would have done in the same situation.

Religion in MY opinion does not fall under this category. (of needing parents telling children what to do) Most religious scripture forbids forcing religion on to any person and they also agree that the religion finds the person not the other way around. It is not the duty of the parents to force the child to attend church as this really has no impact on the childs life. This is not at all the same as the stove example that has been given...

As well saying that religion is all about the morals etc. is a rediculous way to justify forcing your children to attend religious studies or anything of the sort. I can assure you, I never really went to church however I have studied many of religions on my own time. My step-father is an athiest and my mother is a Catholic. My morals are grounded on my personal philosophy of life I've developed and that's that. Nothing religious about it and I do not need to hear it come from someone older than myself to know it's ok for me to have those morals, or to hear them come out of a book or off a page. I've had these views on life since I was a young teen, I'm now 21. It's safe to say that if I saw you struggling with something on the street that I would offer to help you.

 

[rasmhop]

Woah, woah woah. I never said anything about any unilateral age. That will of course, be the next thing under discussion.

Maybe I misunderstood you, but you wrote:
"The only thing we do not agree on is at what age the child is mature enough to make certain decisions for himself."
This to me seems to implicitly assume that we can find a universal such age (or at least close to). Otherwise I would be inclined to answer the question with 1day old - 150 years, depending on the individual and the decision to be made. Sorry if I misunderstood you.

I am simply trying to establish that we all concede that, at some point in a child's life, its parents make all its decisions for it, and that these decisions are downloaded* one-by-one to the child at some appropriate time.

Of course at some age parents make all decisions about beliefs. For instance a 3 minute old baby will not decide a whole lot by itself.

The only issue in contention here then, is at what point any given decision is handed to the child.

Well yes, but honestly I don't see the relevance of this. Especially since it would be a case-by-case decision. Remember we're talking about a 16-year old person having opinions and beliefs, not a 3-year old being taught about stoves. In my opinion as soon as you're able to form your own opinions you're mature enough to have your own opinions. Your parents may comment on your opinions and try to provide the perspective that you may lack, but they should never force opinions on you.

 

[union68]

I can only speak from personal experience, but I think the reason some religious parents will "force" their views onto their children is because they're genuinely afraid that their children will not be "saved," "go to hell," etc.

I brought my mother to tears when I was 15 or 16 and decided to tell her that I was a non-believer. My mom is an absolute sweetheart, and she never told me I was wrong, but I still hurt her pretty badly.

These days, I'll go to church with my parents every once in a while since my school happens to be in my hometown and I live only a couple miles away. It really doesn't bother me, and I know it means a lot to them if I'm there.

 

[zomgwtf]

I can only speak from personal experience, but I think the reason some religious parents will "force" their views onto their children is because they're genuinely afraid that their children will not be "saved," "go to hell," etc.

This is true but it must also be understood by your parents that this is only a belief, and it's not some phenomena on Earth which has direct implications.

Teaching your child not to touch boiling water or opening the oven is vastly different that teaching them to fear/love a god. If they don't understand this then that's a true shame.

 

[DaveC426913]

In my opinion as soon as you're able to form your own opinions you're mature enough to have your own opinions. Your parents may comment on your opinions and try to provide the perspective that you may lack, but they should never force opinions on you.

Not forcing opinions on you, but keeping you learning until your opinions are informed.

My boy decided he hated math in Grade 4. Should he have had the right to decide to stop learning math?

 

[zomgwtf]

Not forcing opinions on you, but keeping you learning until your opinions are informed.

My boy decided he hated math in Grade 4. Should he have had the right to decide to stop learning math?

You don't believe in math, you utilize it and it's a very usefull tool. As well the person in question is not in grade 4 he's 16 years old. In fact in some areas of the world they WOULD respect their childs point of view that math isn't worth the time because there are more important and usefull things for them to pursue.

 

[MotoH]

Not forcing opinions on you, but keeping you learning until your opinions are informed.

My boy decided he hated math in Grade 4. Should he have had the right to decide to stop learning math?

Oh, well he is old enough to make a decision on whether he doesn't like religion or not, so he must be old enough to not take any more math classes! It makes all the sense in the world. /sarcasm


Little kids need decisions made for them. When I was younger, if my parents gave me the opportunity to decide for myself, I darn near always made the wrong decision.

My parents let me dress myself when I was little. I would walk down wearing shorts every day of winter. I was then told to go put pants on. You see, I was giving the opportunity to make my own decision, but I was not informed enough to make a smart decision, and would have been better off if my parents made that decision in the beginning.

 

[DaveC426913]

You don't believe in math, you utilize it and it's a very usefull tool.

Tell that to a child.

This is precisely the issue we are talking about: I don't see the point in this therefore I will stop learning it. And that's that.

Unless the child has wise, firm and patient parents.

 

[DaveC426913]

Oh, well he is old enough to make a decision on whether he doesn't like religion or not, so he must be old enough to not take any more math classes! It makes all the sense in the world. /sarcasm

Sorry, how do you get that from what I said?

Did you not get the point that we don't allow children to just willy nilly decide what they should learn?

 

[MotoH]

Sorry, how do you get that from what I said?

Did you not get the point that we don't allow children to just willy nilly decide what they should learn?

I was backing up your point, although it was rather weak.

 

[waht]

Also the problem of coming out as atheist/agnostic is vastly different than just switching to a different religion. As far as I know, most Christians perceive atheism as immoral.

They think that morality comes from the bible, or any other source of religion. That's why it's ok to be religious.

It then follows if you are atheist/agnostic you are immoral, and so have a potential to do bad deeds.

That's why to many teens coming out as an atheist is comparable as if coming out gay. It's very painful in most cases. It's painful because of the parent's flawed perception, and lack of understanding.

Parents must realize that morality does NOT come from the bible, nor from any other source of religions. Sure there stories, and allegories, but that's not why we act morally.

 

[union68]

This is true but it must also be understood by your parents that this is only a belief, and it's not some phenomena on Earth which has direct implications.

But, they do believe that. That's my whole point. What I do in this life does have a direct affect on my "afterlife." From this comes the fear mentioned in my first post.

 

[zomgwtf]

Tell that to a child.

This is precisely the issue we are talking about: I don't see the point in this therefore I will stop learning it. And that's that.

Unless the child has wise, firm and patient parents.

Yes, I understand your point. My point is that this is NOT comparable to religion and neither is MotoH's point about wearing shorts in winter. A better comparison would be of a father forcing his child to accept that there is a dragon living in all the garages and they sometimes randomly kill people who don't believe it exists. Would the parent be right in forcing the child to believe this against their will? People tend to consider this as 'extreme' but in my opinion it is no more extreme. If you want to discuss about specific beliefs that morals come out of would it be ok to attempt to force a child to believe in the Flying Spaghetti monster? NO.

People seem to take it easy on the 'mainstream' 'big' religions of the world. WHY?

None of this relates to the OP however sooo maybe time for a new thread huh?

 

[zomgwtf]

But, they do believe that. That's my whole point. What I do in this life does have a direct affect on my "afterlife." From this comes the fear mentioned in my first post.

Exactly my point. They BELIEVE that.

Believe:
accept as true; take to be true.

Your PARENTS take it to be true and they should respect the choice of their child to NOT believe as well... or believe in something else for that matter.

Parenting has no place in enforcing BELIEFS in children.

In short, they can be scared for you all they want and they can try to preach to you but they MUST respect your belief and they should never try to force it down your throat because you do not accept it.

 

[DaveC426913]

Yes, I understand your point. My point is that this is NOT comparable to religion and neither is MotoH's point about wearing shorts in winter.

Why do you think it's not the same? A minor cannot make an informed decision until he's learned enough to do so. The parents are the only oens (not to mention the designated ones) to decide how much.

None of this relates to the OP however sooo maybe time for a new thread huh?

Sure it does. Don't see how it's not directly related.

 

[DaveC426913]

Your PARENTS take it to be true and they should respect the choice of their child to NOT believe as well... or believe in something else for that matter.

Parenting has no place in enforcing BELIEFS in children.

It's not about belief; it's about education.

It is the parents' job to educate until the children are informed enough.

 

[zomgwtf]

It's not about belief; it's about education.

It is the parents' job to educate until the children are informed enough.

Education does not mean enforcing a particular dogma. Not in my vocabulary. Neither does helping to make informed decisions in life. This seems more like Propaganda and I think I'm coming close to falling victim to Godwin's Law.

 

[zomgwtf]

Sure it does. Don't see how it's not directly related.

So if the OP had instead posted that he's a 16 year old and his parents attend the church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster but he doesn't want to attend and he doesn't believe such a thing exist in real life, as his parents do, then you would be enforcing the same sort of 'YOUR PARENTS TELL YOU WHAT TO DO AND YOU LISTEN BOY! ITS FOR YA OWN GOOD!' attitude? As though this teen is not eligible to make their own decision on their own personal beliefs on whether or not such a thing exist?

And you would think that the OPs decision not to believe in the FSM is the same as your grade 4 child thinking math is useless? That's rediculous.

EDIT: and this isn't to show an example of what your attitude toward the OP actually is, only to show that this thread has swerved off topic and I think it should be discussed in a ne thread. As well I editted my earlier post did you read what I had added? I think it happened while you were posting.

Second EDIT: I think your point of view is that the parents can decide to instill whatever beliefs they want in their children? I do not believe in this at all and I feel as though I can criticize how other people raise their children all I want. In fact I feel that if a child is in such a situation it is borderline abuse and I would have no problem helping them out.