Reverse Direction of Physics Forums: Old Friends and Experts Gone

[Cyrus]

I don't like the direction PF has gone. It's not the same place I first joined in 03. It's very nontechnical and feels like it's been over-run by students who don't bother doing the very basic studying or reading on their own.

All the people are gone too: mathwonk, daniel, clausius, krab, ...list goes on.

Perhaps we should rename the forums "Homework Help Zone"?

Friends I have from PF back when it started up share my feelings.

I don't offer a solution, just pointing out what I see. I also notice my motivation to post here is going down. :(

Someone smarter than me needs to think about a way to get PF back on track and bring in some expertise that’s no longer here anymore. I don't see much of anything of value at all in the engineering forums, or any new faces that do actual engineering work. Just cranks that want to build pet projects.

Anyways, it's late. Goodbye.

 

[dx]

This may not make a huge difference, but maybe it's worth changing the title from 'Physics Help and Math Help' to something that doesn't make it sound like it's simply for homework? This is what shows up in google, and it may prevent more knowledgeable people from clicking on the link.

 

[Borek]

I don't like the direction PF has gone. It's not the same place I first joined in 03. It's very nontechnical and feels like it's been over-run by students who don't bother doing the very basic studying or reading on their own.

In 6 years your idea about what is technical and what is not surely have changed. I am not saying there were no evolution, I am not that long here, but I am sure you and your point of vew have changed since 2003.

 

[berkeman]

I don't see much of anything of value at all in the engineering forums, or any new faces that do actual engineering work. Just cranks that want to build pet projects.

I don't think you stop by the EE forum much, Cyrus. It's humming along quite nicely, thank you.

 

[Cyrus]

In 6 years your idea about what is technical and what is not surely have changed. I am not saying there were no evolution, I am not that long here, but I am sure you and your point of vew have changed since 2003.

That's true, but also the ratio of students to expects has shifted in the wrong direction. That's why PF used to be so good. The problem is that I have not seen any new members (experts) joining PF for, say, engineering. Not one - in years. Which means any experts that pass by don't deem PF worth their time joining.

 

[berkeman]

Again, not true in EE, Cyrus. We've had some new folks join in the past couple of years, and they have proven to be very knowledgeable and helpful. Guess you're mainly addressing ME?

 

[Cyrus]

Again, not true in EE, Cyrus. We've had some new folks join in the past couple of years, and they have proven to be very knowledgeable and helpful. Guess you're mainly addressing ME?

True, I don't do EE work, so I never venture into that part of the forum. AE and ME, is regress for the last several years.

 

[Moonbear]

I kind of agree with Cyrus' observation. I think a lot of it is that the people visiting for help in the HW forums have grown greatly out of proportion of new people visiting for professional interest, and those who are professionals in the field (I'd include grad students and post-docs in that category), seem to spend a lot more time answering homework questions, or very simple questions that could be answered by a quick glance at a textbook, and those questions don't develop into a discussion at all because they are done once they get a straightforward answer. The rest of the professionals are busy moderating such a large forum.

Though, berkeman, how many are "some" that have joined EE? And over the past "couple" years? What about in the past year or past 6 months? And how many have stayed and actively contribute to new discussions other than helping with homework questions? I do think we get plenty of altruistic people who like helping with homework, but at some point, we need more higher level discussions to provide something back to those who are doing so much helping.

I know I often have felt the same way about the biology and med sci forum. When most of the questions get answered with a standard textbook answer, or "you need to see a doctor," that doesn't leave much interest to visit often.

 

[dlgoff]

Well me for one try to take part in the EE forum but most of my time is spent learning from the Physics sections. I bet there a lot of members that browse and learn without posting.

 

[chroot]

I think that the frequency of quality, professional posts (i.e. posts per day) has remained the same, or gone up, over the years. I also think that the frequency of silly-kid posts has gone up over the years, so that it now encompasses a larger fraction of the total posts made each day.

We have taken steps to prevent the site from becoming solely a homework-help forum:

1) LaTeX was intended to attract a professional audience who needs its sophistication to express high-level mathematical statements.

2) The homework help forum was split off from all of the discussion forums, so that people can choose whether or not to participate.

3) The three-question "show us where you're stuck" format was put in place to prevent drive-by / desperate / silly questions, as well as to discourage others from feeding such trolls.

If we desire to increase the fraction of professional activity (and I'm not sure that we do), we only have two choices: increase the number of professionals or decrease the number of homework-help seekers.

It would be unfair to actively try to turn away homework-help seekers, so we're left with only the first option.

Greg had the brilliant idea of encouraging people to post PF fliers around university campuses, which may end up having a large effect.

Perhaps we can take a page from the creationist/atheist debates elsewhere on the internet by sponsoring public debates, between the experts we already have on board, on the many open topics in science. A separate peanut gallery thread would be created for each such debate. They might provide a way to focus our expert talent, and elevate it above the day-to-day chatter.

I might also consider a Control Panel setting to literally hide the homework help forums, so that members who just don't want to participate in them can remove them from their searches and New Posts listings.

- Warren

 

[Redbelly98]

This may not make a huge difference, but maybe it's worth changing the title from 'Physics Help and Math Help' to something that doesn't make it sound like it's simply for homework? This is what shows up in google, and it may prevent more knowledgeable people from clicking on the link.

You may have a good point there. Something along the lines of "discussion and help", instead of just saying "help". And maybe adding "Physics, math, and technical", or something to that effect, to encourage people in the engineering and "other sciences" to come join.

... how many are "some" that have joined EE? And over the past "couple" years? What about in the past year or past 6 months? And how many have stayed and actively contribute to new discussions other than helping with homework questions? I do think we get plenty of altruistic people who like helping with homework, but at some point, we need more higher level discussions to provide something back to those who are doing so much helping.

Without checking, I can immediately name vk6kro and negitron, who both joined in the past spring or early summer, and have contributed a lot to non-HW EE discussions. (Unfortunately we lost negitron.) Of course this is just one forum of many here.

I'm with chroot, that we shouldn't be discouraging the homework section just to increase the percentage of more professional discussions. If we do anything, it should be looking for ways to increase traffic in the professional forums.

 

[Moonbear]

I'm with chroot, that we shouldn't be discouraging the homework section just to increase the percentage of more professional discussions. If we do anything, it should be looking for ways to increase traffic in the professional forums.

I agree on this point too. But, at some point, we'll run out of people to help with the homework sections if we can't keep enough professionals around. Maybe it just has to level out naturally, that enough HW threads will go unanswered that growth there will stabilize. I'm pretty sure chroot has hit upon the reason for the imbalance, that one section is growing much faster than the others.

Unfortunately, moving the HW questions to a HW forum isn't being done consistently. There are still a lot of very basic questions showing up in the main forums that are drowning out any hope of more in-depth discussions.

I don't think it's necessary to hide the HW forums, as I don't think seeing them is part of the problem. The problem is more the lack of meaty debate in the main forums. I like chroot's idea of initiating some such debates just to entice people to regain some interest in that. I think there's a lot of mental inertia about getting such discussions going, and something to reinvigorate interest in more than just providing homework help may be all that's needed.

 

[Cyrus]

My point is that PF used to be a place full of experts, with some people (me, and some other members that joined around the same time) asking questions and learning. Now we (batch from around when I joined) mostly graduated top of the class and are finishing grad school. The posts used to have equations, were typed well, no one text-spoke, and the questions were mainly conceptual.

Now its: "hey guyz! Can u do diz problm 4 me?"
and its ALL over the place. They post their homework questions EVERYWHERE.

I'd much rather see PF be a place full of experts in industry and academia (which it used to be).

Can anyone name a single new Aerospace engineer that's joined PF since I signed up (03)? I can tell you one that did stop buy: he was a professor and worked in industry for 30 years. He suck around for about a month, and then he left for good. Thats the kind of people you want to stick around. Yeah, its good to help students with their homework, but the mission should be to have a collection of experts. Student's shouldn't take priority. (In fact student's didn't take priority when I joined, which is why it was good. There wasn't homework help sections). I'm not saying get rid of HW help. But HW help shouldn't bleed into any other section of PF. It's like the floodgates are opened and HW questions are spewed all over the place. On top of that, there are "nonacademics" who ask the most basic questions a google search could answer. I don't understand why their threads don't get deleted. Example: "How does an airplane generate lift?" We get that a million times. Try GOOGLE. Then come back when you have a specific thing to ask. At some point, you waste your time repeating yourself: so I just don't answer that question anymore.

 

[Senjai]

In my opinion:

I, myself am in my last year of high school. I have used this forum for a year and a little bit. I love reading questions from peers at my level, helping teach others what others have taught myself. I see it in a selfish way, if i can explain it then i can confidently say i know it. However, this forum has played a major, MAJOR role in sparking my interest in physics.

I will be going into undergraduate commerce next year, however, several of my elective credits most likely will be attained towards a minor in science. Just because i LIKE it. While some may not think so, i frequently visit the quantum mechanics forums, engineering forums and so forth. Nonetheless i can't say i understand the topics there, but i find it heavily intriguing and thought-provoking. This community has made me ask many more questions about the world around us, some of which have my physics teacher stumped. I slightly had a theory about Bernoulli's equation and principles before i knew such a thing existed. I spent an hour or so trying to figure out how the forces act on an airplane when it's in flight, after consulting with my teacher she tutored me in the subject. I didn't think it would have to do with "fluids."

Do note, that you are leaving out a major factor of this communities future success. You may see it from your point of view, but it's people like me who create futures for these communities. I am sure the things i have learned here won't be forgotten and will probably make me a very seasoned member of these boards one day. There are others like me, and even more dedicated to the subject than myself. Most people -im sure- have found this forum because they had a question, or were looking for a community to discuss these topics. The people who you help on homework, not all of them are these selfish leechers. I do what i can, what i can do is limited. However i believe later on ill be able to become a greater asset.

Remember that, the majority of the people attracted to these boards are here to ask for help. Even though that may be true and there is a percentage who will not come back and just take what they need. People as young as i can, can still love and have passion for the science. Help them today, and they may end up helping you in the future. Call me ignorant, but i believe you lack this certain point of view.

~Senjai

 

[Evo]

My point is that PF used to be a place full of experts, with some people (me, and some other members that joined around the same time) asking questions and learning. Now we (batch from around when I joined) mostly graduated top of the class and are finishing grad school. The posts used to have equations, were typed well, no one text-spoke, and the questions were mainly conceptual.

Actually, people are often amazed at the lack of quality of many of the threads from several years ago. Our rules were much more lax and a lot of garbage was allowed. You won't see that tolerated now.

Now its: "hey guyz! Can u do diz problm 4 me?"
and its ALL over the place. They post their homework questions EVERYWHERE.

Posts of this kind are moved or deleted, as appropriate, as soon as they are found. I personally think that we do not have enough moderators to handle the increase in threads. We basically have the same number of moderators that we did 3 years ago handling a disproportional increase in posts, and several of the moderators have had to siginificantly cut their time here back.

I'd much rather see PF be a place full of experts in industry and academia (which it used to be).

I think your "memories" may be a bit colored.

Sure we could try to limit the forum to a handful of academics engaged in serious discussion, but that's not going to bring more traffic to this forum. Don't forget, real professionals have their own professional forums where they go to discuss issues with their peers. Certainly we want to attract high quality professionals here, but I think we have created a rather successful model based on Greg's vision for a site where students could come for help.

 

[Cyrus]

Sure we could try to limit the forum to a handful of academics engaged in serious discussion, but that's not going to bring more traffic to this forum. Don't forget, real professionals have their own professional forums where they go to discuss issues with their peers. Certainly we want to attract high quality professionals here, but I think we have created a rather successful model based on Greg's vision for a site where students could come for help.

Google Aerospace forums. You get two hits, PF, and another forum that sucks. I have not seen/found any such forum on this topic that is good. Why not make this that place?

A side: It would be very nice to require people to put their backgrounds into their profile in terms of education level:

no background
high school
college undergrad
grad
PhD
industry professional
..etc.

So people can gauge what kind of technical reply to give.

 

[Senjai]

Well me for one try to take part in the EE forum but most of my time is spent learning from the Physics sections. I bet there a lot of members that browse and learn without posting.

+OneUP

 

[w3390]

I'm with Borek. It is just like listening to old people talk about how things were so much more difficult in their day or how kids these days don't have to work for anything.

 

[Evo]

Google Aerospace forums. You get two hits, PF, and another forum that sucks. I have not seen/found any such forum on this topic that is good. Why not make this that place?

First, a physics forum probably isn't the first place a person would look.

I'll relate conversations I had with several of the famous scientists (my friends) that I tried to get to post here. They said that professionally, they had their own places online where they discussed "work" with their peers and it wasn't open to the public. You won't find them on the internet.

A side: It would be very nice to require people to put their backgrounds into their profile in terms of education level:

This was discussed and it was decided that people would very likely lie about their level. It should be apparent fairly quickly after a couple of pointed questions what their "real" level of knowledge is.

 

[Cyrus]

This was discussed and it was decided that people would very likely lie about their level. It should be apparent fairly quickly after a couple of pointed questions what their "real" level of knowledge is.

If they lie, kick em out.

 

[Cyrus]

I'm with Borek. It is just like listening to old people talk about how things were so much more difficult in their day or how kids these days don't have to work for anything.

I don't think you understand what I'm saying. Were you posting here back in 03?

 

[berkeman]

Unfortunately, moving the HW questions to a HW forum isn't being done consistently. There are still a lot of very basic questions showing up in the main forums that are drowning out any hope of more in-depth discussions.

All posts that are reported as misplaced homework get moved, AFAIK. There is a problem with homework being reported in the Math forums, but whatever.

If anyone reports a post as misplaced homewok, and doesn't see it moved within a day or so, please PM me. Some of us Mentors are less active on weekends, so please keep that in mind.

 

[waht]

It seems the academic forums just wait for a new member to post a question, answer it, discuss if it's interesting, and move on. Then they will flash neon lights again and wait for another moth to ask a new question so to speak.

On the other hand, the lounge section is modeled on the blog, where the same users generate new topics every day that get six pages of responses, whether it's about a weird news event, showing off pics of recent vacation, dating advice or participating in contests. The users are active and have fun.

Some time ago, berkeman started a thread in the EE section, that discussed and encouraged to solve together good/bads circuit designs which were taken from a classic EE book. If I remember correctly, the thread generated lots of responses, and was fun for those participating, and I'm sure interesting to the lurkers as well.

So I wonder what would happen, if the experts in their fields start a blog like thread on an interesting topic, and lead the users to come up with a solution, sort of like a problem and perhaps taken from real life. For example, if Cyrus likes aerospace, show a pic of some wing you've taken, then show us how do a lift calculation and how it is related to an F16. I'm sure someone would find this interesting. Sometimes people just don't know what to ask.

 

[Pengwuino]

This was discussed and it was decided that people would very likely lie about their level. It should be apparent fairly quickly after a couple of pointed questions what their "real" level of knowledge is.

I like the idea as well. I don't get why people lying is a big deal. I don't even think they would lie. You typically lie about something that can't be easily revealed as a lie; level of education is not something you can fake too easily.

Then again, I'm getting my masters in physics.

GIGGLE.

 

[Pyrrhus]

I think one of the main problems is we keep losing quality people or quality people post way less than before. Where is Morbius? Clausius? Krab? Enigma? Mathwonk? Matt Grime? Shmoe? Galileo?... and the list goes on...

Is the net number of quality people joining vs leaving positive or negative? Are we losing our human resources?

I also agree with Cyrus. Background will be nice.

 

[Borek]

I don't think you understand what I'm saying. Were you posting here back in 03?

And I don't think s/he understood what I have said.

 

[Wallace]

<my 2c>
I pretty much only post in astro/cosmo and occasionally in relativity, so my comments only apply to those sections. As I see it the way things work here are pretty good, and certainly better than most other comparable forums. The thing that prevents PF attracting more genuine pros, and what drives those who do stop by away, is IMO the tendency for badged SA's and even staff to propogate some well know myths and misconceptions. There are some tricky issues in cosmology, but seeing the local experts posting things that you'd chastise your students for doesn't make hanging around an attractive option. Of course one can discuss these questions (a badge certainly doesn't indicate infallibility) however some abiding myths have proved hard to shake, not that my own efforts in that regard have always been exemplorary.

It is difficult because there is an inherent attractiveness to giving a coherent, well phrased and understandable explanation, even if the explanation is in fact incorrect on some level. It's all very well to demand technical correctness, but does that then put the explanation beyond the reach of the person asking the question? Certainly I haven't yet found a good way to explain some important concepts in Cosmology without either invoking difficult concepts or accepting some level of incorrectness in the explanation.

What I do see an element of is the blind leading the blind, when someone says "gee thanks, that explanation really help clear things up" naturally one feels re-inforced in your belief that the knowledge being imparted is useful, regardless of the technical correctness of the response.

I'm not suggesting that astro/cosmo is full of crazy loons, on the whole the level of discussion and explanations are very good, surprisingly good for a open public forum. How to solve the issues I've pointed out to improve things further is something I'm not sure of, and may not really be possible.
</my 2c>

 

[Cyrus]

And I don't think s/he understood what I have said.

I replied to what you said, Borek. There is some truth to it, but I have talked to many 'old time members' of PF who agree with me.

I honestly don't know why w3390 is speaking about matters which he knows nothing about since he wasn't here back in 03.

 

[ZapperZ]

I think one of the main problems is we keep losing quality people or quality people post way less than before. Where is Morbius? Clausius? Krab? Enigma? Mathwonk? Matt Grime? Shmoe? Galileo?... and the list goes on...

Is the net number of quality people joining vs leaving positive or negative? Are we losing our human resources?

I also agree with Cyrus. Background will be nice.

I think we need to back off a little bit here before we make the SAME type of mistakes as crackpots do, i.e. confusing correlation as causation. You, and most people here, have no way of knowing if these people left because of PF, or if their lives have changed, and PF is just not a big part anymore! People's lives DO change!

I've been on forums and BBS's (before the internet became "popular") for a long time (show of hands for anyone who's been on some sort of a BBS before 1987), and what is happening here isn't unique! CHANGE is what is common, even more so now since people are so connected and there are so many options. It is MORE unusual that there are so many people who stick around for more than 3 years and contributing at the usual pace. So before we start attributing something without any basis, think a little bit of what you are saying!

And I have no idea where cyrus got the impression that he got. I'd like to see some statistics before I'd buy into it, rather than just simply based on some vague impression. If I come in and claim the opposite, how are we to know who's right? Anecdotal evidence? Don't get me started on that.

Zz.

 

[Borek]

I've been on forums and BBS's (before the internet became "popular") for a long time (show of hands for anyone who's been on some sort of a BBS before 1987)

Lol, I started around 1990 (mostly QWK & SLMR) and I consider myself one of the oldest "on the wires". But you have to remember that at this time we were here hopelessly behind in terms of access to technology.

Wow, there is a wiki page for QWK but not one for SLMR.

 

[Greg Bernhardt]

I am currently out of town, but I am keeping track of this thread. I just wanted to say I appreciate the many interesting ideas and opinions that are being expressed. Let's keep it going. When I get back Ill look more deeply into things.

 

[dx]

Whatever it was like in '03 (I don't know since I wasn't there), I think we all agree that it would be great to have more experts participating here. I like chroot's idea of organizing debates between experts and other such forum events; they are fun and will definitely increase and focus the activity.

 

[redargon]

Cyrus, I just had a look at the first page of the threads that you have started and I didn't see anything there that was academic or professional. The best one you have is an ancient post about what would happen if you were at the centre of the Earth and another is your "day in the life of an aerospace engineer" blog. You're by no means asking HW questions, but you're also not really stimulating academic discussions yourself. Maybe more experts and professionals would be more inclined to discuss some topics with you if you started some decent ones up.

I'm an aeronautical engineer, but I don't fit into your expert category; I didn't pursue a PHD, I did not graduate top of my class and I don't work in the aerospace industry at the moment, I work for a commercial design company, but I think that I can contribute to many discussions that you would like to have about AE or ME as they are still my passions and I have "enough" knowledge about them to make, usually, relative remarks.

I'm also not a huge fan of all the HW questions, but I try and help out where I can and I ignore the silly questions and trolls. There are a lot of people out there that prefer to discuss their answers with a person and not with Google and I often suggest more reading material for many people so that they can continue if they're interested in a googly fashion. These people that we help now could be the experts in the years to come.

 

[arildno]

Okay, Cyrus, here's a bit statistics:
Using search criteria:
900+ posts (krab had 918)
join date prior to 01-01-2006
last post prior to july 2009 (otherwise, matt grime and mathwonk would be left out), we get the list:
https://www.physicsforums.com/memberlist.php?&pp=30&order=asc&sort=username&postslower=900&joindatebefore=2006-01-01&lastpostbefore=2009-07-01
This consists of 82 members.

If we let last post end prior to july 2008, our list contains 47 names, prior du july 2007, 32 names, and prior to july 2006, 16 names.

Make of it what you want

 

[arildno]

To take one particular statistic:
If you look at 1000+ posters having joined prior to 2004, we had 72 such members.

Of these, 37 have posted after July 2009.

To have a 50%+ retainment rate of those early members is quite impressive, IMO (or depressing on part of those members, depending on your view..)

500-1000 posts: early posters (pre-2004) 7 out of 31 still active (defined as after july 2009)

200-500 posts: early posters 19 out of 95 still active

10-200 posts: early posters 37 out of 721 still active.

0-10 posts: early posters 4 out of 906 still "active".