Reverse Direction of Physics Forums: Old Friends and Experts Gone

[Q_Goest]

I'd like to see some statistics before I'd buy into it, rather than just simply based on some vague impression. If I come in and claim the opposite, how are we to know who's right? Anecdotal evidence? Don't get me started on that.

Zz.

I think a good measure would be to graph SA and HH medals given out over the years. Has this gone up or down?

 

[Evo]

I think one of the main problems is we keep losing quality people or quality people post way less than before. Where is Morbius? Clausius? Krab? Enigma? Mathwonk? Matt Grime? Shmoe? Galileo?... and the list goes on...

I know one was terminally ill, 3 said they had to leave because of work, one moved to another country with grad school and said he'd be too busy.

 

[Q_Goest]

My impression of PF is that they fill a niche, that being academia, so most of the people here are students.

From my experience (aerospace engineering 8 years, industry 13 years) there’s a world of difference between engineering students and practicing engineers. Students are more focused on learning the concepts and theory. Practicing engineers are focused on more practical aspects such as making something work as economically as possible. It’s all about the application of theory to every day design.

Take for example Eng-Tips.com where students are excluded from posting. It’s a board even larger than PF. I think the primary reason they don’t allow students to post is that many if not most students believe their education has provided sufficient experience to tackle real world issues, but experience is one of those things you get immediately after you need it. So to reduce bad advice and flame wars, they simply ban any student from posting.

I think PF should stay on the course they are and remain in the niche they are in. I think we have a good number of practicing professionals, but they often have a different perspective on engineering than students. And that’s ok.

 

[arildno]

Furthermore, of the 900+ posters joining sometime in 2004, 51 out of 78 are still active.

 

[Pyrrhus]

Hey ZZ, Actually I was asking if anybody knows if we are losing more people vs getting new people, and by people I meant quality posters like yourself.

I think PF just needs to focus more on keeping their good posters.

 

[Dembadon]

I have not been a member of PF for very long, but I can tell you that I am here to stay. I created a profile to ask for some academic guidance. At the time, I did not realize the incredible resource I had stumbled upon. After an hour or so of poking around, I decided to contribute financially. This is really the only way I can give back at this current point in time given that I have just returned to school.

I fully intend to be, and to become, a member who helps PF maintain and grow in it's status as a great source of intellectual stimulation, sound guidance, and professional discourse. I believe another user, redargon, made an excellent point by illuminating the fact that many of the newer members, as we obtain more knowledge and experience, will help to fill the gaps created by those who have left or are no longer posting as much.

This brings me to a snippet I've taken of ZZ's post:

... CHANGE is what is common, even more so now since people are so connected and there are so many options. It is MORE unusual that there are so many people who stick around for more than 3 years and contributing at the usual pace. So before we start attributing something without any basis, think a little bit of what you are saying! ...

I realize that great minds are hard to find, and it is difficult when good friends move on, but I really believe in the people here. Change is very uncomfortable at first, but we've got a great set of minds here that can help the change be positive in nature.

We've got some good suggestions so far; my personal favorite being Warren's idea of creating debate topics which stimulate professional discussion.

 

[Moonbear]

Furthermore, of the 900+ posters joining sometime in 2004, 51 out of 78 are still active.

And where are they posting? GD, HW Help, or actively contributing to scientific content? I think that's the issue at hand, more than have some of us stuck around a long time. There are a bunch of us spending a lot more time in GD nowadays because there just isn't anything new on the main forums of interest.

Part of it might be that we've gotten too restrictive on what is allowed to be discussed. I know WHY we have the rules we do about sticking to mainstream science and peer-reviewed articles, and was even one of the supporters of creating those rules. But, now that they've been in place for a while and we can see the full impact of them, I think it limits some of the fun that scientists like to have of bouncing around sometimes slightly off-the-wall ideas, not necessarily because they think it's going to work as presented, but because it stimulates some creative discussion from which a genuinely good idea might arise. Afterall, this is what we go to conferences for too, to talk to people about current work that isn't yet peer-reviewed, or to sit around having a few beers at a nearby pub and bounce around crazy ideas until one that's not so crazy emerges that develops into a collaborative project.

 

[Wallace]

In my experience, the kind of discussions of crazy ideas over a beer at a conference would not fall outside the PF guidelines, at least not the way they are used in practice. There are plenty of threads which technically discuss non-peer reviewed ideas, but that are clearly not the work of nutjobs. Full credit to the moderators who in my view exercise very good judgement in keeping interesting threads open even if one could lock them on a strict interpretation of the guidelines.

Having the rules in place gives mods the option, but it isn't invoked by default. I've yet to see an interesting thread locked, but plenty of un-interesting threads based on 'ideas' that are simply half-baked misunderstandings do get locked.

My view is perhaps skewed by the fact I only post and read in astro/cosmo, so bear that in mind.

 

[FredGarvin]

I can't believe I am going to say this, but I think that we have to look at what our goal is in the engineering forums. Plain and simple, we do not have the professional chops to have the depth of knowledge like Eng-Tips. I wish we did. They have a lot of really good technical people there that specialize in very many different areas. If we could combine that with PF's atmosphere and academic creds, what a site we would have! That's not going to happen unless the entirety of PF changed and that is not going to happen.

I agree with Q_Goest in that this is an educational forum, not a collaborative one. Because of that we will always attract a certain kind of poster. I firmly believe that the environment we have here should not be judged against some clouded version of what engineering reality is, especially by people with very limited or no experience in the area. If we stick to the academic ideal then there is no problem since all of us have plenty of experience there.

I also agree that emphasis needs to be put on keeping the good people. I can see how the PF grind can cause people to take a break or even walk away, especially if you are a professional with things like a real job and a family. I think the only way to really do that is to maintain an atmosphere that people enjoy.

 

[arildno]

Lots of the early students here at PF, Moonbear, are busy right now with early careers both professionally and familially.

They are the first-generation of helped students, and thus their inability (rather than unwillingness) to participate at PF will be more noticeable than, say for the generation 10 years from now.

Thus, if it IS a dearth of such members at the moment (who might well think of re-paying their tribute), this will have the second-order effect upon casual expert visitors, who cannot find a lot of current expert-level threads going on.

And thus, these casual visitors wil turn away as well (in contrast to the first few years of PF.).

Thus, even if you and Cyrus are right about the current lack of interesting material, I don't think it has much to do with the new policy, but more about being in a temporary low-activity zone, that will pass once previous students start contribute at expert level.


I think Fred Garvin is right about the profile of PF.

What we should not forget is that there are large numbers of eminent engineers/scientists who would get irritated by the presence of what they consider "student trash posts", and therefore will never put up with anything other than forums like Eng-Tips.

If PF wants to remain an educational forum, a lot of people simply won't put up with that, because they are primarily interested in a colloborative, strictly professional forum.

 

[Cyrus]

I think we need to back off a little bit here before we make the SAME type of mistakes as crackpots do, i.e. confusing correlation as causation. You, and most people here, have no way of knowing if these people left because of PF, or if their lives have changed, and PF is just not a big part anymore! People's lives DO change!

Er...huh? I never said they left for a given reason. I simply said they left. But, putting that aside, yes. Peoples lives and priorities do change - that's fine, and understandable. What I'm saying is that when those people left, no one came and filled the void. Perhaps that makes what I'm talking about a little more clear now.

[/quote]So before we start attributing something without any basis, think a little bit of what you are saying![/quote]

Never really argued that, so does not apply here.

And I have no idea where cyrus got the impression that he got. I'd like to see some statistics before I'd buy into it, rather than just simply based on some vague impression. If I come in and claim the opposite, how are we to know who's right? Anecdotal evidence? Don't get me started on that.
z.

I gave you exactly where I got that "impression", from being around PF and seeing people leave not not having new people replace them - or the numbers increase. I did pose a question for you, name one new person that came into aerospace/mechanical that is knowledgeable in that area? I remember back in 03 I'd never post in engineering simply because there was never anything of value there. That's why my posts were mainly physics oriented. Nothing has changed in engineering for 6 years. I've only seen a decline in experts.

 

[humanino]

When I joined PF, I spent several months only posting equations and discussing speculative interpretation of them. Then I discovered GD, Marlon joined, and it was all over.

 

[TurtleMeister]

Just a comment regarding Cyrus's idea regarding the education level. I would prefer to have it indicate what level of response you want, not your actual level of education. Education does not always indicate a persons level of expertise. Also, I sometimes ask questions in forums where my knowledge is lacking. In those cases I may prefer responses that are less technical.

 

[Pengwuino]

Just a comment regarding Cyrus's idea regarding the education level. I would prefer to have it indicate what level of response you want, not your actual level of education. Education does not always indicate a persons level of expertise. Also, I sometimes ask questions in forums where my knowledge is lacking. In those cases I may prefer responses that are less technical.

Ah, I can immediately see how that one will turn out

"What level of response do you need for this question?"

99%: "PHD or equivalent"
1%: Something realistic.

and 98% of those questions will be answerable by someone who's completed 2 years of college.

 

[TurtleMeister]

Ah, I can immediately see how that one will turn out

"What level of response do you need for this question?"

99%: "PHD or equivalent"
1%: Something realistic.

Well, you may be right. But only for those who have a profile that indicates their education level and profession. It's different for me. I'm here anonymously and I do not care if I look stupid. I'm only interested in learning. So I prefer an answer that I can understand and will actually help me.

By the way, my fiance loves your avatar. :)

 

[Pyrrhus]

By the way, my fiance loves your avatar. :)

Thank you.

 

[Borek]

Thank you.

And not "Thank her"?

 

[chroot]

Where is Morbius? Clausius? Krab? Enigma? Mathwonk? Matt Grime? Shmoe? Galileo?... and the list goes on...

I'm just as saddened as anyone else by the loss of high-profile members such as these, but new experts join the site every day. If anything, we look too fondly on our past, and spend too little time recognizing and showing appreciation for our newest talent.

We don't nominate new HH and SA folks very often, after all.

I've seen many experts join and post "thread-ending" posts -- posts so well-formed and conclusive that no one ever replies again. Presumably, the original poster got his/her answer, but very few people ever post follow-ups to say thanks. These new experts might end up feeling unappreciated, without realizing that "thread death" is a actually a perverse compliment.

Perhaps we need to spend more time actively looking for "hidden talent" in new posters, and sending PMs and public messages thanking them for their contribution and support. Maybe a few mentors (or a group of well-intentioned members... headed by Cyrus?) could form a sort of "professional welcome wagon?"

I also think that we should implement a rating system, and encourage everyone to rate threads they feel are of high quality. These threads will then rise to the top in listings and search results, naturally improving the apparent quality of the site. Google captured the search market by reliably ranking pages by quality and relevance, and delivering the best results first.

And, yes, it's not without irony that Cyrus, one of most problematic and unprofessional members we've ever had, is now telling us how the site does not meet his standards for professionalism...

- Warren

 

[Cyrus]

I'm just as saddened as anyone else by the loss of high-profile members such as these, but new experts join the site every day. If anything, we look too fondly on our past, and spend too little time recognizing and showing appreciation for our newest talent.

Again, as I've said: I don't see new qualified people posting in AE/ME forums.

I also think that we should implement a rating system, and encourage everyone to rate threads they feel are of high quality. These threads will then rise to the top in listings and search results, naturally improving the apparent quality of the site. Google captured the search market by reliably ranking pages by quality and relevance, and delivering the best results first.

There is also the problem of repetative topics. Some things get asked over and over again, becuase people don't use the search function to find similar threads.

And, yes, it's not without irony that Cyrus, one of most problematic and unprofessional members we've ever had, is now telling us how the site does not meet his standards for professionalism...

- Warren

I said we are loosing some of our tallent pool, particularly in Engineering. Anyways, I'm your favorite member on PF, admit it. You can try discrediting what I said based on my naughty behavior, but that isn't going bring in new people (But it does make for good tv).

 

[Moonbear]

I've seen many experts join and post "thread-ending" posts -- posts so well-formed and conclusive that no one ever replies again. Presumably, the original poster got his/her answer, but very few people ever post follow-ups to say thanks. These new experts might end up feeling unappreciated, without realizing that "thread death" is a actually a perverse compliment.

This is all part of the same problem. Yes, in the past, sometimes someone did post a thread-ending post. But, more often, a well-formed post didn't end the thread, but would lead to more questions and more discussion once the initial question was answered. I think this is the lack of intellectual curiosity Cyrus is talking about.

We used to get questions, even from students, that didn't have simple answers. They were people seeking more information than you could get out of a textbook or in their courses. The questions would require delving into the literature and piecing together information from multiple sources and sometimes coming to the conclusion that there really wasn't an answer to the question, but lots of indirect evidence that really opened up discussion.

Now, too often, the questions getting asked are so basic that all anyone needs to do is point someone toward a textbook (because students don't read books anymore).

Though, I'm trying to figure out if this is a problem with the direction of PF, or with the current generation of students in general. Just the other day, I actually had to show one of my students (halfway through the semester in sophomore year) that the textbook has an index and how to use it. And, I am wondering if we're NOT helping them to keep providing answers to simple questions rather than just telling them "go look it up in your book" so they learn these skills of using reference materials to find their own answers rather than having everything spoon fed to them. This is different from the way we help them work through homework problems, where we do make them do their own work, but more the simple questions that get posted in the regular forums that are still probably for their classes but not problem sets.

 

[Monique]

And, I am wondering if we're NOT helping them to keep providing answers to simple questions rather than just telling them "go look it up in your book" so they learn these skills of using reference materials to find their own answers rather than having everything spoon fed to them. This is different from the way we help them work through homework problems, where we do make them do their own work, but more the simple questions that get posted in the regular forums that are still probably for their classes but not problem sets.

But how do you know whether someone who has never had a training in the subject, and thus has no relevant textbooks, is asking the question or someone who is currently taking a class?

Homework questions can be identified based on the phrasing of a question, but the origin of other questions is often obscure.

 

[redargon]

Moonbear,
The new generation sees the internet as you used to see the library. If you have a question about a specific problem, you could go to the library and search around for the answer by reading through tens of books or you could ask a colleague or a lecturer and he could direct you to the "right" book. Now it is a case of doing a search on the internet and reading through tens of web pages or asking a colleague or online expert (a pfer for example) to find the "right" resource. Nothing has actually changed, just the medium of information and communication. I am stuck in between both generations. I know how to use books and the interent and I use them both as efficiently as I can.

Saying that students don't read books anymore doesn't mean anything, they read internet resources or gather information in the most efficient ways available. You can't punish people for wanting to be spoon fed, it's natural to take the easiest route. IMO a textbook is also a form of spoon feeding, where all the topics are layed out nicely with worked examples and questions for each chapter and answers in the back. It's a lot easier than finding all the resources and reading them all to glean the required information.

Also, sometimes the simple questions are the ones that generate the click that helps someone to understand something. I'm against people just posting their HW and expecting us to give detailed answers, but that's why there is the HW template and if it is not used properly, I don't feel bad ignoring the post or asking for more information or attempts of an answer before sharing my thoughts.

 

[Ben Niehoff]

I've seen many experts join and post "thread-ending" posts -- posts so well-formed and conclusive that no one ever replies again. Presumably, the original poster got his/her answer, but very few people ever post follow-ups to say thanks. These new experts might end up feeling unappreciated, without realizing that "thread death" is a actually a perverse compliment.

I'm certainly no expert, but this happens to me all the time. It's kind of annoying...not that one can do anything about it, though.


As far as the general "depletion of quality" thing...this is something that happens to every forum on the Internet as it grows. I have seen tons of forums grow up from small, motivated memberships, to booming giants of intellect, and finally to unmanageably large swamps of mediocrity, as the popularity of the place begins to attract people who are only passing interested. PF has done a good job staving off that final transition for a while, but I get the feeling that its grip is slowly weakening.

I think part of the problem is that the leadership gets bored. I don't see any "PF Mentors" doing much besides locking threads, answering HW questions, and posting in GD (and this goes double for the owners, who are practically invisible!). Can't really blame them; they probably posted a lot of interesting stuff for a while and then got tired of doing the same thing all the time. Unfortunately, I think a key part of a forum remaining high-quality is to have an active leadership to keep it fresh. That is, they who are in charge must actively work to make the place what they want it to be; not just delete posts and ban unruly members.

I don't have a good solution, though...I know that every time I have authority at any forum (I've owned a few and moderated others), it starts to feel like a job, and it is hard to really maintain interest. Perhaps the PF Mentorships need to be recycled. Perhaps PF needs to appoint "writers" whose job it is only to post interesting stuff on a regular basis, and not moderate threads. I've tried similar things in the past, with not much success; you can't really expect anyone to do some task on a regular basis without paying them.

Everyone eventually has to ask themselves, "Why do I come to X forum?" And if the answer is "Because X forum needs me" rather than "Because I think it's really interesting", you can bet that person won't stay.

 

[Norman]

Lots of the early students here at PF, Moonbear, are busy right now with early careers both professionally and familially.

They are the first-generation of helped students, and thus their inability (rather than unwillingness) to participate at PF will be more noticeable than, say for the generation 10 years from now.

I was going to post this exact thing. I joined way back in the day as an undergrad and PF served my needs well for homework help as an undergrad, for some research help and stimulation as a grad student and now as a postdoc I try to make some helpful posts when I find a minute or two. It is much easier (and somewhat less taxing) given my amount of free time currently to make a quick post on something interesting in GD than to spend some real effort in the homework section. I actually would love some free time to help out with HW, but no time.

It is sad to see old members move on but eventually things change (as Zz said) and things evolve. I don't think PF is any less technically proficient than it was so long ago. And having been around here for a while, there is a definite ebb and flow in the forums (well the ones I visit) with what is posted and the frequency of posts made there.

 

[Cyrus]

Everyone eventually has to ask themselves, "Why do I come to X forum?" And if the answer is "Because X forum needs me" rather than "Because I think it's really interesting", you can bet that person won't stay.

That's exactly how I feel lately. I get tired of correcting misinformation about aerodynamics all day long, and never having a discussion with someone that knows about the subject.

 

[Galteeth]

I have an idea. Why not re-organize the forums into subsections such as "Beginner, Intermediate, Advanced"?

This way, academics would have a place for their discussions, and students could answer the more basic questions.

EDIT: Furthermore, this might be useful excersize for students, as explaining things to others can help them enhance their own understanding.

 

[Borek]

I have an idea. Why not re-organize the forums into subsections such as "Beginner, Intermediate, Advanced"?

It won't work, for HS students way too often questions they can't solve are "Advanced" - no matter how "Beginner" they really are.

 

[arildno]

I have an idea. Why not re-organize the forums into subsections such as "Beginner, Intermediate, Advanced"?

This way, academics would have a place for their discussions, and students could answer the more basic questions.

EDIT: Furthermore, this might be useful excersize for students, as explaining things to others can help them enhance their own understanding.

As Borek said:

It is only whe you are proficient in the field that the distinctions beginner/intermediate/advanced make much sense.

If you struggle with the borrowing of tens in subtractions, for example, that feels very advanced for you.

 

[ZapperZ]

I have an idea. Why not re-organize the forums into subsections such as "Beginner, Intermediate, Advanced"?

This way, academics would have a place for their discussions, and students could answer the more basic questions.

You are assuming that members here, especially the new ones, actually read and pay attention to such things, and know what those mean. Would you like to make a guess how often the Mentors have to move threads that are posted in the wrong forum?

Zz.

 

[FredGarvin]

I think another thing that is also against us is that, it seems, that we have a large number of broad topic posts that would take a lot of time to answer. I find myself asking people to pare down the post to be more specific. That usually kills a thread right there because it's usually someone who has a homework due and doesn't want to put any thought into it. It's nature of the beast I guess, but it makes it difficult to have decent discussions when someone wants you to explain a year's worth of undergrad in a single question.

 

[Ronnin]

I would like to chime in with my two cents. I have been a member of the forums since '05 and have seen this "change" Cyrus is referring to. I found this forum though a google search because I was trying to prepare for my first uniphys course. I did some searching and found a very vibrant and diverse community of people who loved to actually understand things. A lot of these discussions I found had the same flavor as those you would have with the other handful of trully interested students in a class with the instructor after class. That, "I want to understand more", spark only a few people in a given class/group have when greeted with new subject matter. I think just as a lot of people here, my life has changed big time in the last 4 years and I don't have the same time to devote to my non-work/family interests like I use to. I don't think that is disimilar to many here especially in this economic environment where "more for less" becomes the de facto standard in almost everything. I have never been a big poster but I do try to make this a daily stop to check in on the haps. My only real "complaint" about PF has been the high frequency of political banter of late. I'm follow politics quite heavily but I really try to limit the discussion of them because inevitably most turn into a us vs. them argument and rarely anyone walks away feeling any differently about the subject than they did before. In the end I believe PF is a victim of its own success. It's no longer that "niche" community of "nerds" it once was.

P.S.

I too can't stand the IM speak. I had to tell one of my subordinates just the other day to quit using it in their work emails. Take the extra step and TYPE THE WHOLE WORD!

U IS NOT EQUAL TO YOU

 

[turin]

How about a test that members can take to indicate their level. The tests can also be topical, like the subject GREs. Maybe one test can be used with questions at many levels. Then, the correctness of each answer can be evaluated to determine at what level the member is.

Then, members can be given, separately, read and write access to certain forums based on their level.

"At the end of the day", the test results could always be overriden by a mentor, of course, in either direction.

 

[Galteeth]

This is all part of the same problem. Yes, in the past, sometimes someone did post a thread-ending post. But, more often, a well-formed post didn't end the thread, but would lead to more questions and more discussion once the initial question was answered. I think this is the lack of intellectual curiosity Cyrus is talking about.

We used to get questions, even from students, that didn't have simple answers. They were people seeking more information than you could get out of a textbook or in their courses. The questions would require delving into the literature and piecing together information from multiple sources and sometimes coming to the conclusion that there really wasn't an answer to the question, but lots of indirect evidence that really opened up discussion.

Now, too often, the questions getting asked are so basic that all anyone needs to do is point someone toward a textbook (because students don't read books anymore).

Though, I'm trying to figure out if this is a problem with the direction of PF, or with the current generation of students in general. Just the other day, I actually had to show one of my students (halfway through the semester in sophomore year) that the textbook has an index and how to use it. And, I am wondering if we're NOT helping them to keep providing answers to simple questions rather than just telling them "go look it up in your book" so they learn these skills of using reference materials to find their own answers rather than having everything spoon fed to them. This is different from the way we help them work through homework problems, where we do make them do their own work, but more the simple questions that get posted in the regular forums that are still probably for their classes but not problem sets.

It might be a problem with students in general. I can only speak from my experience, but "teaching to the test" has taken on a whole new level in recent years. When I was i was in high school (98-02) there was already systematic cheating that was overlooked by the teachers. Since the metric for judging teachers is performance of students on tests, there's no incentive for them to discourage this. The problem has seemingly only gotten worse. My ex-girlfriend of a few years ago was a high honors AP Bio student, and couldn't tell me what a mitochondrion was or how DNA worked (or what state Chicago was in for that matter). This is only an anecdotal report from one school, but I wouldn't be surprised if it was a more general phenomenon.

 

[Ben Niehoff]

How about a test that members can take to indicate their level. The tests can also be topical, like the subject GREs. Maybe one test can be used with questions at many levels. Then, the correctness of each answer can be evaluated to determine at what level the member is.

Then, members can be given, separately, read and write access to certain forums based on their level.

"At the end of the day", the test results could always be overriden by a mentor, of course, in either direction.

Having a test one must take to join is the hallmark of a website that takes itself way too seriously.

Like I wrote earlier, we don't post on Physics Forums because Physics Forums is some noble cause or great idea in the abstract; we post on Physics Forums because it's interesting and fun. If you remove the "fun" and the "interesting", this all evaporates.

I think it's unrealistic to expect any sort of category system to work perfectly. As long as most people follow it most of the time, it's fine.

 

[Cyrus]

Having a test one must take to join is the hallmark of a website that takes itself way too seriously.

Like I wrote earlier, we don't post on Physics Forums because Physics Forums is some noble cause or great idea in the abstract; we post on Physics Forums because it's interesting and fun. If you remove the "fun" and the "interesting", this all evaporates.

I think it's unrealistic to expect any sort of category system to work perfectly. As long as most people follow it most of the time, it's fine.

All that's needed is for members to be aware of the problems and be active in telling people who do make lousy posts to stop. The only solution to the problem is by self correcting (i.e all of us have to take part in it). If the mentors simply lock (or delete) the threads, that won't stop people from continuing to make lousy threads. Its only if other members say "Type properly and don't waste our time with basic questions Google can answer" that visitors will get the impression that such things are not 'culturally' tolerated here by members if they start posting. They can go to Yahoo! questions if they want to participate in that kind of discussion.