Saving Ash from a Volcanic Eruption: A Geologist's Perspective

[Frame Dragger]

Mostly a result of confusion about the correlation between wearing a seatbelt and not flying through the windscreen.

Oh, that's part of it, but remember that most accidents DON'T end with ejection from the vehicle, but those who do tend to die.

http://askville.amazon.com/Statisti...s-intuition/AnswerViewer.do?requestId=4828631

In a way, everyone in an airplane (believes) they are essentially an unrestrained passenger, lacking ANY control, and in the event of a crash, they are unlikely to survive (they believe). This is clearly not rational when seatbelt usage figures would seem to indicate that many people are tired of living. I think we need to accept that without major education initiatives, these views will remain and people who would otherwise survive car wrecks will die.

Of course, this is still very much a "the elevator is the safest place for you to be"... until you start spending quality time in it. IF something goes wrong in a car, and you've taken precautions, you're likely to live. In a plane, you're more liley to die, and experience prolonged terror.

 

[lisab]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/8631144.stm"

A new ash cloud spreading towards the UK is causing uncertainty over plans to reopen some airspace on Tuesday, air traffic control body Nats has said.

Earlier, it said the flight ban would be lifted over Scotland, Northern Ireland and the north of England.

But Nats said there was now a worsening situation in some areas. The outlook for Northern Ireland is most uncertain.

Dang, just as the airspace restrictions were beginning to ease.

Is there any way to see ash at night?

 

[BobG]

Nobody wants to have to tell anyone's relatives that their loved one died because of from Eyjafjallajökull.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9jq-sMZtSww


It's even worse than notifying the deaf about a death.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_zheeF5yPak

 

[Frame Dragger]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/8631144.stm"



Dang, just as the airspace restrictions were beginning to ease.

Is there any way to see ash at night?

There should always be ways to at least bounce a laser and see how the light scatters... but really, it's tough to see period. On radar, it's just invisble at this point... glass and dust don't make an impression, and modern radars screen "noise".

 

[tomkeus]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/8631144.stm"

Yes but the ash plume is much lower than last time. It is reaching only 4km or so opposed to 10km last week so it shouldn't present as big problem in affected areas.

 

[joelupchurch]

The US+Canada have about twice the highway fatality rate of most western european countries, in spite of being in theory safer as more miles are driven on freeways. And the US+Canada have much lower levels of wearing a seatbelt.

That is incorrect. The current seat belt usage in the United States is 84% (2009). The latest number I could find for Europe is 76% for front seat occupants and 46% for rear seat occupants. The only countries that do consistently better the United States are Scandinavia, Germany and the UK.

The 2009 fatality rate for the United States is 7.2 per billion vehicle kilometers which is a respectable number compared to Europe.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2010-04-12-traffic-deaths_N.htm"

Of course Americans have an advantage over other countries since we tend to stay inside our cars.

Risk comparisons for the EU show that the fatality risk for motorised two-wheelers is the highest of all modes, being on average 20 times higher than for car occupants. Also cycling and walking have on average a 7 to 9 times higher fatality risk per distance traveled than car travel.

http://www.etsc.eu/oldsite/rep_all6.htm"

 

[Count Iblis]

Yes but the ash plume is much lower than last time. It is reaching only 4km or so opposed to 10km last week so it shouldn't present as big problem in affected areas.

It has just been announced that the airports in Southern Britain will remain closed.

 

[ViewsofMars]

Sorry for the delay Ivan in fully responding yesterday regarding correspondence (your *replies* my responses) please, reference msgs. 118, 120, 121, 122. (My delay was due to the unexpected happening and I had to deal with it! Car problems yesterday. I have no desire in fixing my turbo.)

As a female aka WOMAN science researcher, I naturally did some research today that might be helpful.

NASA:

4.19.10
NASA Observes Ash Plume of Icelandic Volcano
by Rob Gutro, NASA's Goddard Space Flight Center

The continuing eruption of Iceland'sEyjafjallajökull volcano was observed Mon., April 19, 2010, by the Advanced Spaceborne Thermal Emission and Reflection Radiometer (ASTER) instrument onboard NASA's Terra spacecraft . The new image shows a white eruption column being carried toward the south by prevailing winds. The image is dominated by the gray, ash-laden eruption cloud dispersed south and east by the winds, blowing from the southern Iceland coast toward Europe. The bright red areas mark the hot lava at the current vent (upper left), and the still-hot lava flows from the earlier phases of the eruption (upper center). The high-temperature material is revealed by ASTER's thermal infrared bands.

This image covers an area of 58.6 by 46.8 kilometers (36.3 by 29 miles). The resolution is 15 meters (49 feet) per pixel.

4.19.10
Two NASA Satellites Capture Last Three Days of Eyjafjallajökull's Ash Plume
by Rob Gutro, NASA's Goddard Space Flight Center

NASA's Aqua and Terra satellites fly around the world every day capturing images of weather, ice and land changes. Over the last three days these satellites have provided visible and infrared imagery of the ash plume from the Eyjafjallajökull volcano in Iceland.

Eyjafjallajökull is pronounced similar to "EYE-a-fyat-la-yu-goot," and it is still spewing ash into the atmosphere. Volcanic eruptions are important sources of gases, such as sulphur dioxide (SO2) and volcanic ash (aerosols) in the atmosphere.

The Moderate Resolution Imaging Spectroradiometer, also known as MODIS, is an instrument that flies aboard both NASA's Aqua and Terra satellites. MODIS captures daily visible and infrared Earth imagery and has provided daily images of the volcanic plume. NASA’s MODIS instrument and the Atmospheric Infrared Sounder (AIRS) instrument, both of which fly on Aqua, contain sulfur dioxide (SO2) absorption channels to enhance volcanic ash detection. These applications have significantly improved upon existing satellite-based multi-spectral techniques in identifying and tracking ash clouds and estimating their height.

On Saturday, April 17 at 13:20 UTC (9:20 a.m. EDT), Aqua captured a visible image of the ash plume so clearly that in the satellite image a viewer could see the billowing cloud spewing from the volcano and blowing almost due south before turning east over the Atlantic Ocean.

On Sunday, April 18 at 12:05 UTC (8:05 a.m. EDT), NASA's Terra satellite flew over the volcano and captured an image of the brown ash cloud mostly obscured by higher clouds. The brown plume was partly visible underneath the high clouds.

By Monday morning, April 19 at 12:50 UTC (8:50 a.m. EDT) the high clouds had cleared, and the brown line of spewed volcanic ash was visible once again blowing south, then turning east toward the United Kingdom.

The ash cloud basically consists of fine particles of pulverized rock. Volcanic ash is a rare but potentially catastrophic hazard to aviation. Encounters with volcanic ash while in flight can result in engine failure from particulate ingestion and viewing obstruction of the cockpit widescreen from etching by the acidic aerosols. Volcanic Ash Advisory Centers were established to monitor the air space in areas prone to eruptions and to issue volcanic ash warnings.

NASA works with other agencies on using satellite observations to aid in the detection and monitoring of aviation hazards caused by volcanic ash. For more on this NASA program, visit: http://science.larc.nasa.gov/asap/research-ash.html.

Eyjafjallajökull is one of Iceland's smaller glaciers, located north of Skógar. Skógar is a small Icelandic village with a population of roughly 25 located at the south of the glacier. Eyjafjallajökull lies west of another glacier called Mýrdalsjökull.

The MODIS Rapid Response System was developed to provide daily satellite images of the Earth's landmasses in near real time. True-color, photo-like imagery and false-color imagery are available within a few hours of being collected, making the system a valuable resource. The MODIS Rapid Response Team that generates the images is located at NASA's Goddard Space Flight Center in Greenbelt, Md.
[Please view images and further text from the link below. Thank you.]
http://www.nasa.gov/topics/earth/features/iceland-volcano-plume.html

Science Magazine :

Iceland’s Volcano Proving Tough to Predict
by Richard A. Kerr on April 19, 2010

Volcano prediction can be tough going, but volcanologists really have their hands full with the ongoing eruption at Iceland’s Eyjafjallajökull. When will it end? Will there be even more ash? And will Eyjafjallajökull's bigger and badder neighbor Katla join in? It seems that the very character of Icelandic volcanoes is working against reliable forecasting. If anything, the long-term outlook is bad.

Eyjafjallajökull’s orneriness became obvious 17 April, when scientists at the University of Iceland and the Icelandic Meteorological Office announced that the volcano’s chemistry had changed. At the extremes, volcanoes behave one of two ways: quietly like Hawaii’s Mauna Loa, which almost always just oozes lava for years on end; or boisterously like Mount St. Helens, which quickly rose to an explosive climax and then retired.

The latest chemical analyses of ash explain how Eyjafjallajökull switched without warning from quiet lava to plane-grounding ash plume. The key was a boost in the silica content of the magma arriving at the surface. Silica-rich magma makes for more viscous—and thus more explosive—lavas and can be produced as some minerals crystallize out of subterranean magma. The mountain, which was regularly monitored, gave no chemical warning that the switch was on the way.

Eyjafjallajökull is not divulging its longer-term intentions either. According to geophysicist Páll Einarsson of the University of Iceland, the magma feeding the current eruption seems to be coming from down deep rather than a shallow chamber. So it is impossible to gauge just how much magma could emerge during this episode of activity.[Please read on . . .]
http://news.sciencemag.org/sciencenow/2010/04/icelands-volcano-proving-tough-t.html#disqus_thread

I think my previous message #69 might be helpful.

 

[pivot]

does anyone know what causes volcanic lightning? seems like it could be various things (change in pressure, particles in the air, moisture, magnetic materials, etc)

 

[Count Iblis]

Actually this is nothing new. Eyjafjallajökull shuts down air traffic in the 21st century, and in the 18th century http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laki" shut down shipping traffic:

The summer of 1783 was the hottest on record[citation needed] and a rare high pressure zone over Iceland caused the winds to blow to the south-east. The poisonous cloud drifted to Bergen in Norway, then spread to Prague in the Province of Bohemia by 17 June, Berlin by 18 June, Paris by 20 June, Le Havre by 22 June, and to Great Britain by 23 June. The fog was so thick that boats stayed in port, unable to navigate, and the sun was described as "blood coloured".[6]

 

[Frame Dragger]

does anyone know what causes volcanic lightning? seems like it could be various things (change in pressure, particles in the air, moisture, magnetic materials, etc)

Friction between particulate matter. Think of an ash cloud as a BIG carpet, with it's own slippers.

 

[pivot]

I feel like, then, all volcanoes would have lightning, but that isn't the case.

 

[Frame Dragger]

I feel like, then, all volcanoes would have lightning, but that isn't the case.

All volcanoes don't produce large, energetic explosions, or ash plumes. If we're just talking about a pyroclastic flow (which not all volcanoes have), with little or no plume, then:

1.) There may be a lot of moisture which would inhibit the process, but mostly
2.) The cloud is mostly grounded already.

 

[DaveC426913]

I feel like, then, all volcanoes would have lightning, but that isn't the case.

By that logic all rain clouds should have lightning too. As it is though, only the really big ones do.

 

[mgb_phys]

I think this event shows it's time to think of a tunnel again.

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/forgottenfutures/express/express.htm

 

[Frame Dragger]

Holy ****...

http://www.businessandfinance.ie/cat_news_detail.jsp?itemID=1479

BA should be shot in the knees for taking passengers for such a "ride". The bloody fools should have taken their fleet home a few hours later and avoided this. 6K passengers are going to be deeply pissed.

 

[cristo]

Holy ****...

http://www.businessandfinance.ie/cat_news_detail.jsp?itemID=1479

BA should be shot in the knees for taking passengers for such a "ride". The bloody fools should have taken their fleet home a few hours later and avoided this. 6K passengers are going to be deeply pissed.

BA decided to play hardball with NATS by launching some of their long haul flights towards heathrow, an airport that, when the flights will have taken off, BA would have been told is closed until at least 0100 on Weds. This resulted in some planes being diverted to Ireland, some being held in holding patterns for hours.

It seems that BA has won, since NATS has just announced that airspace will be opening in phases from 2200.

 

[Count Iblis]

A plane from Toronto was diverted to Newcastle. So, you'll have a lot of passengers finding themselves in the Middle of Nowhere

 

[cristo]

A plane from Toronto was diverted to Newcastle. So, you'll have a lot of passengers finding themselves in the Middle of Nowhere

Newcastle isn't such a bad place to divert to (and isn't too bad a city.. watch it, Kurdt will get you ) as there's a direct rail link. Shannon, on the other hand, is on a different island!

 

[Frame Dragger]

Newcastle isn't such a bad place to divert to (and isn't too bad a city.. watch it, Kurdt will get you ) as there's a direct rail link. Shannon, on the other hand, is on a different island!

Hmmm, they designated these flight numbers as landing in Heathrow and Gatwick... I maintain there are going to be some seriously ticked passengers. Granted, it's cheaper than leaving planes grounded, but if they were not honest about the destination... damn.

Then there are the people stuck in Amsterdam... and they're complaining! The Dutch are sending lovely women in traditional dress to entertain people in a city with legal marijuana. As Force Majeure goes... not too bad an outcome.

This is all the same BS as per usual... getting people on the plane, instead of warning them of certain delays... etc...
I'll just say this... I'm ever stuck on the tarmac for 4+ hours, I'm getting up to take a little walk down the aisle, and blow the first emergency hatch or door I find.

 

[mheslep]

Occurs to me that that this ash problem is another reason for aviation to pursue electric ducted fan powered aviation, along with an appropriate energy source. (https://www.physicsforums.com/showpost.php?p=2292842&postcount=14"). The high temperatures inside current turbine jet engines that melt ash silicas are absent in ducted fans. In addition to fans, find a material tough enough for a windscreen and the Friendly Skies will be unlikely, or at least much less likely, to be interrupted by the next mons flammas eructans.

 

[turbo]

Occurs to me that that this ash problem is another reason for aviation to pursue electric ducted fan powered aviation, along with an appropriate energy source. (https://www.physicsforums.com/showpost.php?p=2292842&postcount=14"). The high temperatures inside current turbine jet engines that melt ash silicas are absent in ducted fans. In addition to fans, find a material tough enough for a windscreen and the Friendly Skies will be unlikely, or at least much less likely, to be interrupted by the next mons flammas eructans.

How do you power it, though and allow efficient operation? Right now, fossil-fuel-driven turbines are the big game in town and every step in conversion, transmission, storage, etc, steals from the efficiencies.

 

[Frame Dragger]

I'm guessing we'll be riding RAMjets before we find safe energy storage of the density needed for that kind of ducted fan as propulsion.

This is really a big problem for the military... as civilians we have rail technology we COULD implement if we chose, that would be fairly effecient.

 

[mheslep]

How do you power it, though and allow efficient operation? Right now, fossil-fuel-driven turbines are the big game in town and every step in conversion, transmission, storage, etc, steals from the efficiencies.

The fan itself would be ~98% efficient. The energy source is another hard problem*, but some possibilities include fuel cells run from hydrogen or natural gas, etc, or a normal jet fuel powered turbine electric generator + batteries which are used at cruise.

*Edit: If a fuel cell or electric turbine generator is used they will suffer the usual efficiencies and losses.

 

[mheslep]

I'm guessing we'll be riding RAMjets before we find safe energy storage of the density needed for that kind of ducted fan as propulsion.

How do you take off and land with a RAMjet? Also, I doubt RAMjets solve the ash problem. Though the moving parts are gone, the high temperatures melting the ash remain, eventually corroding the engine structure.

 

[Frame Dragger]

How do you take off and land with a RAMjet? Also, I doubt RAMjets solve the ash problem. Though the moving parts are gone, the high temperatures melting the ash remain, eventually corroding the engine structure.

You misunderstand... I'm not saying we SHOUlD, I'm saying that I believe that technology is going to be ahead of the kind of energy storage you describe.

As for taking off and landing... um... how about ducted fans or props for ascent and descent? (yes, I get the irony) You'd already be carrying hydrogen, which makes the fuel-cell quite feasible. You also can fly ABOVE the ash cloud at high efficiency, and with no delicate moving parts, removing the glass becomes a much smaller issue. I'm also unclear as to whether glass would actually VITRIFY in a RAMjet... it seems to me that it would remain molten and blow out the um... backside.

 

[mheslep]

You misunderstand... I'm not saying we SHOUlD, I'm saying that I believe that technology is going to be ahead of the kind of energy storage you describe.

Understood. My point is I don't see a path forward for RAMjets given the physics of RAMjets. I do see a way forward for the physics of ducted fans; on balance fans + an energy source appear to be an engineering problem.

As for taking off and landing... um... how about ducted fans or props for ascent and descent? (yes, I get the irony)

Not clear what you mean. Do you mean use RAMjets plus another set of engines to handle the total flight envelope? That's a big aircraft performance hit to payload.

You'd already be carrying hydrogen, which makes the fuel-cell quite feasible. You also can fly ABOVE the ash cloud at high efficiency,

That's a good point - RAMjets make the high altitude possible unlike the turbine.

and with no delicate moving parts, removing the glass becomes a much smaller issue. I'm also unclear as to whether glass would actually VITRIFY in a RAMjet... it seems to me that it would remain molten and blow out the um... backside.

Can't prevent interaction with the containing walls, though I have no idea of the gross effect.

 

[Frame Dragger]

Understood. My point is I don't see a path forward for RAMjets given the physics of RAMjets. I do see a way forward for the physics of ducted fans; on balance fans + an energy source appear to be an engineering problem.

Not clear what you mean. Do you mean use RAMjets plus another set of engines to handle the total flight envelope? That's a big aircraft performance hit to payload.

That's a good point - RAMjets make the high altitude possible unlike the turbine.

Can't prevent interaction with the containing walls, though I have no idea of the gross effect.

Yeah, I have no idea what the end effect would be either. We're talking about MUCH higher sustained temps in a RAMjet than a jet-turbine. That said, FA-18s were being glassed on their engines... and they aren't slouches in the heat department.

As for takeoff and landing, yes, I mean having another set of engines. I can't imagine anything short of a "capture craft" which would be insane, as an alternative. Remember, RAMjets don't NEED to be be carrying huge payloads... that's not realistic anyway. That said, for medical evacuations, organ transplants, and high priority rapid travel it would be VERY useful. In that scenario, reduced payload is offset by the EXTREMELY low price of the fuel, and how rapidly you can turn over a flight.

That... I don't think anyone can reliably predict. That said, energy storage that isn't essentially a bomb is tough to come by. Batteries are not racing ahead, but hindering virtually everything. Maybe super-capacitors could be useful, but not in their current incarnations. As for a hydrogen fuel-cell... you can use them on a sub, but one to power ducted fans for a plane? That's a tough one, and without radical technological breathroughs I see 2 problems:

1.) Hindenberg^2. Jet fuel is flammable, but hydrogen under pressre?! Damn. Same with LNG. This would also be a storage NIGHTMARE on the tarmac in terms of refueling. We would be flying bombs, in a way that current aircraft don't even BEGIN to approach.

2.) If we're talking about liberating hydrogen, there are limited way to do this. Is burning coal for electrolysis really better than jet-fuel? Hydrogen has a long way to go, and at least a RAMjet doesn't need anywhere near the amount a fuel-cell does.

Plus... RAMjets are VERY simple, and I pity the bird who is sucked into one. Roast goose anyone... at mach 3? SCRAMjets are probably bound to be missile/drone only... but RAMjets have a great deal of potential.

Batteries... it always comes down to stupid batteries in some form or another. A breakthrough in energy storage would be magnificent. Look what modern Lithium-Ion-Polymer batteries have done! If we could store energy reliably and safely on a large scale (short of vanadium batteries the size of an elementary school), it would change the world overnight. So much technology is just waiting for more juice... so frusterating.

*shouts at materials engineers at PF* Come on... GET ON IT! We need dilithium crystals post-haste.

 

[Evo]

does anyone know what causes volcanic lightning? seems like it could be various things (change in pressure, particles in the air, moisture, magnetic materials, etc)

Great picture of the lightning.

http://www.swisseduc.ch/stromboli/perm/iceland/eyafallajokull_20100416-en.html?id=3

 

[Frame Dragger]

Great picture of the lightning.

http://www.swisseduc.ch/stromboli/perm/iceland/eyafallajokull_20100416-en.html?id=3

Wow. If I saw that in real life, I would be running with a pantload of poop and shame... my dignity would be absent.

My mother once encountered a Puma in Tikal (truly, the middle of a jungle in Guatamala), and while the experience has been memorable... it also scared the crap out of her. I love lightning, but that, plus volcanic plume + magma = I get why people looked at that and decided to worship the damned things.

 

[mheslep]

1.) Hindenberg^2. Jet fuel is flammable, but hydrogen under pressre?! Damn. Same with LNG. This would also be a storage NIGHTMARE on the tarmac in terms of refueling. We would be flying bombs, in a way that current aircraft don't even BEGIN to approach.

Myths. Hindenberg fire and explosion was due to the coating on the skin, not the H2. H2 has safety https://www.physicsforums.com/showpost.php?p=2592657&postcount=44" compared to hydrocarbon fuels. It's not clear that it is more dangerous than jet fuel.

Back to the mountain of fire.

 

[NeoDevin]

Looks like something out of a sci-fi movie.

 

[mheslep]

Looks like something out of a sci-fi movie.

Yes it does. If this was from Hollywood I would have thought, nah, not believable, they overdid the special effects again.

 

[Frame Dragger]

Myths. Hindenberg fire and explosion was due to the coating on the skin, not the H2. H2 has safety https://www.physicsforums.com/showpost.php?p=2592657&postcount=44" compared to hydrocarbon fuels. It's not clear that it is more dangerous than jet fuel.

Back to the mountain of fire.

Are you talking about the "thermite" proposal for the doping agent? Hell man, even MYTHBUSTERS took that one on. Sure, it may well have contributed to the disaster, but that doesn't make hydroge SAFE. Keep in mind as well, that the hydrogen in a zeppelin isn't under high pressure... if it had been the doping wouldn't have mattered, it would have been confetti.

Jet fuel really isn't that dangerous... it requires the proper mixture with oxygen to "go boom". LNG is pretty well studied, and a blast from a propane tank vs. a similar vessel filled with jet-fuel isn't even a contest. There is also the issue of leaks... a fuel leak is dangerous... an H2 or LNG leak is disastrous. Hell, the most dangerous things on a plane right now are O2 tanks, for much the same reason. Yes, part of this is the need for high pressures in the case of LNG and H2, versus jet fuel (which if you stuffed in high pressure would be a Fuel-Air bomb), but that's inescapable without some material liberating H2 within a fuel cell.

Anyway, as for "Ejyfidgetwaddawaddahakala", I agree... reality is no substitute for SFX. Of course, if you SEE this in real life, and not a picture, it's a bit more impressive I imagine. The word "surreal" springs to mind.

 

[mheslep]

Jet fuel really isn't that dangerous... it requires the proper mixture with oxygen to "go boom". LNG is pretty well studied, and a blast from a propane tank vs. a similar vessel filled with jet-fuel isn't even a contest. There is also the issue of leaks... a fuel leak is dangerous... an H2 or LNG leak is disastrous. ...

FrameD, I provided sources for the various relevant combustion facts on H2 vs hydrocarbons, use them.