Share Page References from Heimskringla for Good Parts

[marcus]

Do you know by the way, how Herodotus believes lions are reproduced?

I will get my Penguin copy and look in the index under "lions, reproduction"
thanks for the lead!

 

[marcus]

there is no "lion" index entry in my copy of H.
[edit: found it anyway III, 108, how awful!]

for directions on how to get the gold using male and female camels
look in Book III
around section number 103-105
(I am not sure of the numbering)

 

[Evo]

there is no "lion" index entry in my copy of H.
[edit: found it anyway III, 108, how awful!]

for directions on how to get the gold using male and female camels
look in Book III
around section number 103-105
(I am not sure of the numbering)

I'm still at work, but I'm dying to see what you guys are reading. I will search for it when I get home.

 

[Evo]

I found both how lions reproduce and the ants/gold/camels.

Another favorite of mine is section III, 113. About what has to be done to prevent the sheep's tails from dragging the ground.

 

[marcus]

that is so charming!
and very thoughtful of the shepherds

this time i suspect that you had the book already
since you gave no link?

 

[Evo]

that is so charming!
and very thoughtful of the shepherds

this time i suspect that you had the book already
since you gave no link?

No, I found it here. Sorry, I'm so distracted right now between too much work and not enough sleep.

http://www4.wittenberg.edu/academics/hist/dbrookshedstrom/105/herod.htm

 

[marcus]

No, I found it here. Sorry, I'm so distracted right now between too much work and not enough sleep.

http://www4.wittenberg.edu/academics/hist/dbrookshedstrom/105/herod.htm

not to be sorry! I also am a bit distracted. Henceforth we will proceed leisurely-wise, get sufficient sleep, and enjoy our reading the more for it.

 

[Evo]

not to be sorry! I also am a bit distracted. Henceforth we will proceed leisurely-wise, get sufficient sleep, and enjoy our reading the more for it.

My problem is that when I start reading, I can't stop and I get no sleep.

I am enjoying reading everything you and arildno have suggested so far.

 

[marcus]

Once upon a time (this is a true story) there was a very wicked Duke of Milan
Im not sure but I think his name was Strozzi
or something like that, perhaps we could find out

this Duke was very sinful and he knew it, he did all kinds of bad things which he knew would make God angry at him

so the Duke devised a strategy of always having a lot of servants with him whose job it was to jump on him in case of thunderstorms

he went right on abducting virgins from the villages and doing all the other things he wasnt supposed to do, but he had these people ready to jump on him
and that way, he believed, he was safe from being struck by lightning

because the Almighty, in his justice, would not slay the innocent servants on top of the Duke. So as soon as he heard thunder the guilty Duke would fling himself on the ground and be flopped on by his innocent servants.

this was his shield against Righteous Vengeance carried out by means of an electrical storm.

this was in the Renaissance. I expect it was 16th century.

It was a european thing to do and involved a physical understanding of lightning bolts as well as a somewhat legalistic grasp of ethics---he cleverly deduced that the bolts would have to get the servants first if they were on top of him, so that if they were virtuous he was safe.

 

[marcus]

time for bed,
there may be other translations of herodotus on the web
that we could compare with the one you found---for style

I like the penguin one which is by a man born in 1896 whose name
was Aubrey de Selincourt---but i also like things to be available on the web

so I would be interested to know what is available
besides that one at the Wittenberg website.
perhaps sometime in the next few days I will have a look

 

[Evo]

I should be outside working on my yard. Oh well, never enough time. Perhaps I should quit my day job.

marcus and arildno, here are some of the links I have found and have been reading through.

This looks like a very interesting site. I haven't had a chance to really read through much yet, but it does have a lot of information on procopius, Justininan and Theodora, as well as Herodotus. It also has a discussion board.

This is the link to Justinian & Theodora.

http://www.isidore-of-seville.com/justinian/1.html

This is the home page. There are many links, texts & sources reviewed and posted. I plan to read through these, perhaps you an arildno may be interested in looking at this to see if there is useful information to discuss.

http://www.isidore-of-seville.com

Here are some other links I went to on Herodotus.

http://classics.mit.edu/Herodotus/history.html

http://courses.dce.harvard.edu/~clase116/txt_herdodotus.html

This is medieval/ancient history forum I found. It's brand new, so not too many members yet, but it is currently active.

http://www.talk-history.com/forum/

Another Herodotus link.

http://www.herodotuswebsite.co.uk/

 

[marcus]

I should be outside working on my yard. Oh well, never enough time. Perhaps I should quit my day job.

marcus and arildno, here are some of the links I have found and have been reading through.

This looks like a very interesting site. I haven't had a chance to really read through much yet, but it does have a lot of information on procopius, Justininan and Theodora, as well as Herodotus. It also has a discussion board.

...
This is medieval/ancient history forum I found. It's brand new, so not too many members yet, but it is currently active.

http://www.talk-history.com/forum/

Another Herodotus link.

http://www.herodotuswebsite.co.uk/

I was glad to see the mosaic portrait of Theodora from the church in Ravenna
It is interesting that they have a medieval/ancient history forum.
You found some good stuff!

We were in Big Sur today and just got back 10 minutes ago. I just turned on the computer to see if there was any post on the Heimsk. thread. Lo and behold.

the Nika riot was a good case where Theodora saved justinian's bacon (i.e. throne and probably life) by a cool decisive ruthlessness she had---a clearer idea of how to use power

It was a little like Los Angeles and they were into stock car racing
and it was connected to organized crime and political parties and justinian tried to suppress the excesses of it and the masses of the bubbas took offense and backlashed. they were getting ready to depose J but theodora knew just what to do which was to massacre a stadium full of racing fans, this got their attention and defused the situation. Please correct me if I am wrong.

so in the material you hunted up there was an account of the famous Nika riot

I have to turn in. It was a long drive. Tomorrow is another day. thanks for the links!

 

[Evo]

I was glad to see the mosaic portrait of Theodora from the church in Ravenna

Yes, I've never seen it in person though. I must say I would not have thought her that attractive based on the mosaic.

We were in Big Sur today and just got back 10 minutes ago.

How nice! I envy you living close to the coast. I grew up near the ocean and now I live in the plains of the midwest. I really miss the beach.

the Nika riot was a good case where Theodora saved justinian's bacon (i.e. throne and probably life) by a cool decisive ruthlessness she had---a clearer idea of how to use power

It was a little like Los Angeles and they were into stock car racing
and it was connected to organized crime and political parties and justinian tried to suppress the excesses of it and the masses of the bubbas took offense and backlashed. they were getting ready to depose J but theodora knew just what to do which was to massacre a stadium full of racing fans, this got their attention and defused the situation. Please correct me if I am wrong.

I love your analogy. You pretty much nailed it.

I remember reading a lot of this when I was maybe 5-6 years old. My mother had an entire series of books on ancient history with each book covering a different period and I read them all. That was a VERY long time ago. It's all coming back now plus there are bits and pieces that I don't remember ever reading.

 

[marcus]

I remember reading a lot of this when I was maybe 5-6 years old. My mother had an entire series of books on ancient history with each book covering a different period and I read them all. .

that was a bit of luck
BTW in the Karla McLaren thread I thought both you and that other person had some very astute things to say, and I am not engaging in flattery
you saw through her to some extent---buttering up the pompous skeptics, who would be vulnerable to that----but presumably for a good cause: making them change their behavior

I'm a bit discouraged---just don't have the gumption to go through procopius (even though I see the book as entertaining and shedding considerable light on the period)

also I think nobody but me enjoys that anecdote about the duke of Milan

and the business about the camels was a bit obscure
the slow ones are left trailing behind so that the ants will occupy themselves with those while the men on the fast camels get away
I see the Persians impressing Herodotus, the eager listener, with the
fiendish cleverness of this scheme

If I were a young historian perhaps i would specialize in the reign of justinian and theodora----they built the Haghia Sophia
as well as having all that monkeybusiness and circus act stuff

it was a piece of the Roman Empire that lasted till, I don't know, 1200.


My cousin's father was chief of security in Leningrad during the Stalin purges and eventually he was executed and his wife and the two boys were sent to a camp---she was friends with a lot of poets and composers
(she knew Akhmatova) and eventually a composer who may have been her lover before she went to the Gulag, well he used influence and got the family out. And he is the oldest of the two boys and still alive and he has written a memoir about her and her friends and his childhood and that terrible time
and he gave me a draft and inside the front cover there was a Latin inscription----it epitomizes the aristocratic ideal in education, teach your son "To ride, to draw the bow, and tell the truth"

"Equitare, arcum tendere, veritatem dicere" or something like that, Self adjoint would know the precise latin.

Well, two days ago I was in Big sur and was reading herodotus and
where do you suppose that Latin motto comes from?
herodotus Book I, paragraph 138 I think. i don't have the book with me to check. And it was the way the persian nobles raised their sons. I think herodotus reports it in connection with cyrus.

So it must exist in Greek in the original and have been translated.

And a funny thing: Isaak Dinesen used it as an epigraph for "Out of Africa" so that it can be connected if you wish with your impressions of meryl Streep in Kenya around 1910. You see, Karen Blixen was a Danish aristocrat
and she would not let you forget it either. And she had a sense of style so she put the finest possible motto in her autobiographical memoir-----and old Slava our russian cousin stole it.

A lot of things I try to communicate I just don't manage to, partly because of laziness and leaving things out. Or because they are a bit idiosyncratic perhaps.

i like Isaak Dinesen stories. I like Babette's Feast

Aristocratic traditions are useful because they preserve ideals
including ideals of beauty

 

[Evo]

Once upon a time (this is a true story) there was a very wicked Duke of Milan---he cleverly deduced that the bolts would have to get the servants first if they were on top of him, so that if they were virtuous he was safe.

I somehow missed this. That's so funny! His servants must have thought he was nuts.

I will respond to your last post tomorrow when I can think clearly.

 

[Evo]

I'm a bit discouraged---just don't have the gumption to go through procopius (even though I see the book as entertaining and shedding considerable light on the period)

What would you like to read instead?

also I think nobody but me enjoys that anecdote about the duke of Milan

I loved it.

and the business about the camels was a bit obscure
the slow ones are left trailing behind so that the ants will occupy themselves with those while the men on the fast camels get away

I'm a sucker for animals, I was hoping the slow camels got away. They got away...right? (hint: tell me they got away)

If I were a young historian perhaps i would specialize in the reign of justinian and theodora----they built the Haghia Sophia
as well as having all that monkeybusiness and circus act stuff

They are quite interesting, to say the least. The story about the geese, she was very young when she did this, correct?

My cousin's father was chief of security in Leningrad during the Stalin purges and eventually he was executed and his wife and the two boys were sent to a camp---she was friends with a lot of poets and composers

Wow marcus! That is so fascinating, I can't imagine living through something like that. I often wonder how people can hold up under that kind of stress.

i like Isaak Dinesen stories. I like Babette's Feast.

I am not familiar with this.

 

[marcus]

Oh I forgot to say the slow camels got away too!

 

[marcus]

I would not put it down to her youth. Indeed as she aged she became ever more devastatingly beautiful and her parties at the palace ever more cunningly depraved.

It is my opinion that the business with the pet geese was something she didnt think of until she was in her forties!

Of course they were Greeks, which could account for a lot: as I am sure you know Helen of Troy's father was a swan

 

[marcus]

Can anyone help me find this in Herodotus

(My next door neighbor teaches in the linguistics dept and is very amusing and I was visiting for tea yesterday and she began talking about herodotus and she says this:)

it is known that in Africa the sun is very hot in the middle of the day
and so there is this race of men (the Egyptians tell me) with only one very large foot

they stand on one leg and walk around, I guess they hop, on one foot

and in the middle of the day they lie down on their backs
and put the leg straight up in the air
and shade themselves with their foot
and go to sleep for a while

--------------
Is this indeed in herodotus, and is it in the chapter with Egyptians giving the information. I don't remember seeing it. Can anyone give a page or paragraph reference?

---------------

and besides, did I offend everyone's sense of propriety or something?
there has been no thread business after i pointed out what I thought
was obvious about the Empress Theodora

 

[selfAdjoint]

Herodotus is just full of supernatural things presented as simple fact. You don't have to go to Egypt; he has gods, oracles, and nymphs of full supernatural power interacting with Greek humans in Greece itself.

Gene Wolfe wrote an engaging set of fantasy novels about this; The first one is "Soldier in the Mist."

 

[selfAdjoint]

Herodotus is just full of supernatural things presented as simple fact. You don't have to go to Egypt; he has gods, oracles, and nymphs of full supernatural power interacting with Greek humans in Greece itself.

Gene Wolfe wrote an engaging set of fantasy novels about this; The first one is "Soldier in the Mist."

AS for Theodora, she was the Liz Taylor of her day. I for one don't believe half the tabloidesque stories Procopius retails. They don't have to be original with him; just walking past a supermarket checkout counter will educate you in the human power to make up stories and impute them to celebrities.

 

[Evo]

Can anyone help me find this in Herodotus

(My next door neighbor teaches in the linguistics dept and is very amusing and I was visiting for tea yesterday and she began talking about herodotus and she says this:)

it is known that in Africa the sun is very hot in the middle of the day
and so there is this race of men (the Egyptians tell me) with only one very large foot

they stand on one leg and walk around, I guess they hop, on one foot

and in the middle of the day they lie down on their backs
and put the leg straight up in the air
and shade themselves with their foot
and go to sleep for a while

--------------
Is this indeed in herodotus, and is it in the chapter with Egyptians giving the information. I don't remember seeing it. Can anyone give a page or paragraph reference?

I found it. It appears it was originally reported by Pliny The Elder.

"The construction of the "fantastic other" is reinforced in the work of Pliny the Elder (23-79 AD). In his Natural History, Pliny talks about how the outermost districts of Ethiopia produce such human monstrosities as tribes of people without noses, those who have no upper lip and others without tongues. In Book VII, ii, 21-24, Pliny cites Ctesias as the source of the story of a tribe of Indian men called the Monocoli who have only one leg, and who move in jumps with surprising speed; the same are called the Umbrella-foot tribe, because in hotter weather they lie on their backs on the ground and protect themselves with the shadow of their feet."

http://www.triangle.co.uk/pdf/viewpdf.asp?j=whr&vol=10&issue=2&year=2001&article=NiebrzydowskiWHRE10_2&id=144.160.98.31

That was great marcus! I'd never heard of that.

and besides, did I offend everyone's sense of propriety or something?
there has been no thread business after i pointed out what I thought
was obvious about the Empress Theodora

It didn't bother me. I was enjoying reading about her exploits. I was waiting for you and Arildno to decide what we would read together. You both stopped posting so I thought you were too busy.

I'd love to get started again.

 

[marcus]

selfAdjoint, a person of considerable probity, suggests that the National Inquirer should have been called, instead, the National Herodotus

It is my passionate conviction, on the other hand, that nothing can touch the Procopian Theodora for scandal. I ador 'a

If some spirit medium wanted to make a lot of money she could
get in touch with Theodora and do a "True Confessions" theodora tells all
novelette. Now darling, let me tell you about the time I made love with a bear.

Let us all root for the Greeks to win the European football championship, since they are a people with much merit, altogether deserving honor.

 

[marcus]

I found it. It appears it was originally reported by Pliny The Elder... In Book VII, ii, 21-24, Pliny cites Ctesiasas the source of the story of a tribe of Indian men called the Monocoli who have only one leg, and who move in jumps with surprising speed...

My nextdoor neighbor, a witty woman whom I admire almost to the point of philandery, does not know her Pliny as well as Evo.

Evo, you are keen for classical and medieval history, as I hope the others have noticed as well. If we persist in it we are all apt to learn something (most probably something we did not expect, too).

 

[Evo]

My nextdoor neighbor, a witty woman whom I admire almost to the point of philandery, does not know her Pliny as well as Evo.

No, I'm just good with search engines.

 

[marcus]

No, I'm just good with search engines.

I will take that under consideration.

It is possible you are also good with search engines.

Can you find an original text, in translation, that recounts the Hindu
creation myth
Vishnu is asleep on a cobra floating on an infinite ocean
It is a big cobra so the cobra's head makes a wide comfortable bed for Vishnu to sleep on.
At some point in time a lotus grows out of his navel.
And Brahma sticks his head up out of the lotus and looks around
and decides to create the universe, just for fun.

Brahma creates the universe to delight Vishnu. I think that is a nice reason.
The two of them enjoy the universe for 50 billion years,
which in the Hindu system is called the "Day of Brahma" and also is a unit of time called a "kalpa"

After one kalpa (50 billion years) they uncreate the universe and Brahma climbs back into the lotus and the lotus flower closes and goes back into Vishnu's navel and Vishnu goes back to sleep.

He sleeps for one kalpa (50 billion years). this is called the "Night of Brahma".

Now, an intelligent person will naturally want to know if this is the first time this has happened. does this happen often? or is it just a one-time thing. And if it repeats are we in the first cycle, or what.

And the thoughtful Hindus have answers to these questions.

the Hindu cosmology, that I recounted here, is the only prescientific cosmology with the correct timescale, that I know of.

50 billion years is of the same order of magnitude as the 13.7 billion years that we have as the present age, and of things like the projected life of the sun, and the life of galaxies.

So the Hindu story is better than most in my humble opinion----I think time-perspective is sort of important. Also I like navels.
also I like that Brahma is so small, like a leprechaun, so small he can hide in a flower and it is this small sprite who creates the universe, not the big guy. And I approve highly of the motivation. He does it to give his friend pleasure.

I found this in the Encyclopedia Britannica. I would like an english version of the original

 

[Evo]

Can you find an original text, in translation, that recounts the Hindu creation myth

This is a hard one. Easy to find numerous references to the story, but nothing that looks close to an accurate original translation. I'm still searching.

I did find one reference to this being the ninth time the universe has been created, but there was no reference given that I could verify.

 

[marcus]

This is a hard one. Easy to find numerous references to the story, but nothing that looks close to an accurate original translation. I'm still searching.

I did find one reference to this being the ninth time the universe has been created, but there was no reference given that I could verify.

maybe i should take a turn
it is important that its always fun and never fatiguing
so if your initial search didnt turn anything up, i can take a try

BTW hats off for finding those original bigfoot people
I have never read any Pliny, just heard the name

 

[marcus]

BTW I just spoke to an Indian anthropologist woman
who says there are several Hindu creation myths
(this one she knows very well but she says there are others)
one involves an egg
but there is an even better one that says the universe
was churned into being by a turtle

just like when you churn cream it coagulates into butter
so that the butter comes into being by churning

well there was the infinite ocean again( that we saw before)
and there was no quarks and leptons in other words
no form or matter or anything, which the turtle felt was a deficiency
so churned and churned
and Existence coagulated like butter
and some say that a snake was involved too but I don't know how

this appeals to me because it seems very likely that leptons
are produced by churning, and possibly also quarks, and then
protons and neutrons are made by the quarks coallescing, just like
butter, and atoms and so on.

But I like the business with the lotus sprouting from his navel.

My friend has seen that represented in indian art at the Asian Art museum
in San Francisco, so we in some sense have a contemporary "document"
only it is sculptured bas relief and not a piece of writing

You say you found online paraphrases----could you give some links

 

[Evo]

and some say that a snake was involved too but I don't know how

Here is one I found with the snake, actually a whole bunch of snakes.

The laksmi creation story starts with Brahma telling the Asuras and Devas to churn the ocean of milk. The Asuras and Devas were looking for soma, or immortallity. Anxious the two groups go and ask Ananta a serpent to turn Mt. Mandara into a ocean of milk. They then use another serpent to churn the ocean, Vasukii. After churning for some time they grew tired and bored, but then Vishnu comes and erges them not to quit. After some time a beautiful God appears, Laksmi. However this is not what they wanted so they kept churning the ocean until a black sludge appears. Then a thousand poisinous snakes come out of the sludge. The poison turns blue and Shiva comes and swollows this poison. Shiva holds this poison in his throught and the poison turns his throught blue. After Shiva purifies the ocean Dhanvantari appears. He is the physician of the gods and he holds the soma in a container called fillasha. This story goes on and on, but in the end the devas drink and become immortal.

http://www.msu.edu/user/murphy16/

this appeals to me because it seems very likely that leptons
are produced by churning, and possibly also quarks, and then
protons and neutrons are made by the quarks coallescing, just like
butter, and atoms and so on.

You can be so funny.

You say you found online paraphrases----could you give some links

I found a bunch, but I only saved a few links.

Here are some that seemed to be good resources.

http://www.archaeolink.com/creation_myths_religious_anthrop.htm

http://www.crab.rutgers.edu/~goertzel/creationmyths.htm

Here's one with the turtle.

http://www.ignca.nic.in/ps_05014.htm

 

[marcus]

Dear evo, I went looking for the Hindu myths of creation and
found that Hinduism is a dreadful mess
they need a good editor

it is a dismal task to find anything
at least in the old testament bible of the Israelites there is linear order
and one can find where the Genesis is because it comes at the beginning!

at least in the great book of the Westerners which is called
the encyclopedia Britannica there is alphabetical order
and one may look for navel under N and lotus under L

but in Hinduism there is no order, none of any kind!
It is quite slovenly and disreputable.

 

[marcus]

I did learn that the serpent on which Vishnu is sleeping is
called Sheshnaag

the lotus that grows from his navel has a special name too
but I forget what it is----perhaps it is Kamala or perhaps Padma

 

[marcus]

I think we just have to give up on Hindu creation myths, now i am sorry
I got you into such a difficult and unrewarding search in such a
bramble-patch

the thing is, they always want to sell you stuff.

they tell you summaries and they say yes yes it is all in the
Vishnu Purana translated by Horace H Wilson in 1865, or some
business like that, but it is not on line!

And one cannot be sure that is really is where they say because
of a certain vagueness that comes of too much sophisticated spirituality for too many centuries where they have been looking at all these things
as "symbolic" of contemplative states of mind and not taking them literally as stories in a hard-edge way and i say bleeegh and blaaaghhh to that.

the book of genesis is crisply told by comparison.

Maybe Salman Rushdie has retold these creation myths in good prose style. that would then be quite agreeable!

one has to really believe that the turtle really did churn the infinite ocean of milk

I am sure you agree, I am just saying it to make it revoltingly explicit, as is the custom

 

[Evo]

I was very surprised at how Hindu Myths were so inconsistent and no one seems to think it important to find an original authoritative source. This has been an interesting excersize, to say the least.

I have found that the only consistency is the inconsistency. Everything appears to have different names. The snake that Vishnu (who himself has 1,000 names)reposes on is called by many names, for example - Shesanaga, Shesha Nag, Sheshnaga, Ananta, Anantasesh, Sesha, etc...

In Hindu myth, nagas are a primeval race of divine serpent-people that play an important part in religion.

I have always been partial to the turtle story though.

I've also found the same sources for the translation of the Puranas. Nothing complete is available online.

I did find this tale which I thought you might enjoy.

Takshak : This king of Nagas was responsible for ending the life of king Pariksh it, the descendant of Pandavas. Pariksh it once insulted a great sage while he was engrossed in meditation. The sage's son cursed Pariksh it by saying that he will die of a snake bite. Pariksh it was so scared that he built his palace on a single pillar surrounded by water. He believed that he was safe as no snake could crawl through the water. Takshak had to take up the challenge to honour the sage's words. He shrunk his body and hid in an apple. When Pariksh it was about to eat the apple, he sprang out to his original shape and bit the king. The king's son, Janamejay, was so angry that he performed a huge snake sacrifice. His priests chanted powerful mantras which made all snakes fall into the sacrificial fire. Takshak sought Lord Indra's help. But the mantras were so powerful that both Takshak and Indra began to fall into the fire. Then Astik, a wise sage, intervened and stopped the sacrifice before all snakes were annihilated.

Also, a bit of background on the Naga Shesha.

Shesha: This enormous thousand-headed snake bears the Earth on his head. Traditionally, it was believed that earthquakes were caused whenever the snake moved. Shesha floats on the cosmic ocean and Lord Vishnu reclines on the coil of his tail. This Naga survives even when the entire universe is destroyed. Hence, it is also called Ananta (eternal). Shesha accompanies Lord Vishnu in every incarnation.

Thus, when Vishnu appeared in his seventh incarnation as Rama, Shesha was born as his brother Lakshman. However, before their next incarnation, Shesha complained to Vishnu that he was tired of being his younger brother and always having to obey him. So Lord Vishnu suggested that he be his elder brother in their next incarnation so that Lord Vishnu will have to obey him. Thus Shesha was born as Balaram while Vishnu appeared as Krishna during their eighth incarnation.

http://festival.indiatimes.com/articleshow/-1669016349.cms

edit - too funny, the automatic online PF censor deleted the last part of the name p a r a k s h i t, so I had to divide the name.

 

[marcus]

I've been enjoying your recent posts on Hindu legend a lot.
I could listen to some more of these stories
or, if you want to change
I would be interested if you would propose something we could
read (and give me the link so i can find it)

you some times say "you or Arildno pick something"
but you could take a turn