Shock & Awe Tactics: Exploring Baghdad "Liberation

[Zero]

Originally posted by Adam
1) Can you please show me the evidence that Saddam Hussein has ordered his Republican Guard to use chemical weapons?

2) Actually my personal suspicion is that Iraq has NBC weapons. However, I try to never let my own suspcions influence my actions. I must keep in mind that a suspicion is not a fact.

Adam, you live in the new world, where whatever you make up to support your view becomes 'fact', and suspicion is as good as knowledge. If Fox News or Rush Limbaugh say it is true, it is true, by default, in a 1984 sort of way.

 

[Adam]

War is Peace!

Aka: "To liberate the Iraqi people, we're going to bomb the hell out of Baghdad."

 

[Zero]

Originally posted by Adam
War is Peace!

Aka: "To liberate the Iraqi people, we're going to bomb the hell out of Baghdad."

'giving Iraq self-determination' = 'giving U.S. companies control of Iraqi resources and industries, and the Iraqi people have to accept the slave wages that those companies are willing to pay'

 

[Nicool003]

1) Can you please show me the evidence that Saddam Hussein has ordered his Republican Guard to use chemical weapons?

Oh give it up! Open your eyes! It's everywhere. Unless your media is so bad that you don't know about it. It's been on the news all day!

War is Peace! "To liberate the Iraqi people, we're going to bomb the hell out of Baghdad."

Not really. We are going to try to avoid civilian casualties. By the way speaking of civilians. Many Iraqi's have taken up the fight. They have been attacking Saddam husane's loyalists and troops.

'giving Iraq self-determination' = 'giving U.S. companies control of Iraqi resources and industries, and the Iraqi people have to accept the slave wages that those companies are willing to pay'

Oh great another one. IF you payed attention you would know that we are giving the Iraqi's control of their oil fields etc... Read what I just said to adam. You seem to think the Iraqi's like saddam husane. They DONT!

 

[damgo]

Looks like nothing at the site.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/worldlatest/story/0,1280,-2509601,00.html

 

[kyleb]

Originally posted by Nicool003
Oh give it up! Open your eyes! It's everywhere.

 

[kat]

The officers and soldiers, led by Lt.-Col. James Johnson, were concerned by the large number of artillery shells found by the complex because, according to Naspaugh, the main means of deploying WMD is artillery shells.

"We gave our description of the complex to the higher-ups of the Fifth Corps and the 75th Exploration Task Force at Fort Sills," Naspaugh said.

"We will make our assessment of the complex to higher-ups. They will decide whether to send in another team that will come and take samples back to a laboratory that will use a gold standard. The only person who will announce such a finding is the president or the prime minister.

"I can't confirm or deny if there are chemical weapons here. In the bunker, we looked at, we found protective gear," Naspaugh said, referring to chemical-resistant masks, suits, and gloves.

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/A/JPArticle/ShowFull&cid=1048562545224

 

[kyleb]

so it is all still speculation.

 

[Nicool003]

What is still all speculation? That the Iraqi citizens don't like him? Hey you know them morons that went and became a human shield? They interviewed a few people that left on the news yesterday and when asked why the left they reponded that they thought the Iraqi's liked or at least were fine with saddam but when they talked to iraqi citizens they were told what horrible and disgusting things he did to people who disliked him.

What is still all speculation? That he has weapons of mass destruction? He certainly does. He ordered them used and he already fired missles much stronger and longer ranged than he was supposed to have.

What is still all speculation? That the Iraqi's that are loyal to saddam are almost as evil as him? That they got American uniforms and are killing innocent iraqi citizens?

 

[Njorl]

I'm not convinced Iraq has chemical weapons that it can use in this war. Last I heard, Iraq had chemicals for chemical weapons. While they claimed that they had destroyed these chemicals, they offered no proof. There are scenarios that would lead to no use of chemical weapons though.

They might have destroyed the chemicals, and refused to prove it so as to keep the possibility alive for deterrence purposes. Foolish and unlikely, but possible.

They may not have had the opportunity to arm the chemicals into munitions while inspectors were in the country, or in the brief period between their departure and the beginning of fighting.

If they had no chemical weapons ready to use, the Iraqis would try to convince us that they did. They would make sure that we found chemical protection suits, and atropine injectors. This way, we expect and diligently prepare for an attack that doesn't happen.

That being said, we still have to assume that they will use them, and prepare accordingly.

Njorl

 

[Nicool003]

we still have to assume that they will use them, and prepare accordingly.

You took a good amount of time to write that whole post and in the end you come to basically the same conclusion I already mentioned. So you could have saved some time you know...

 

[russ_watters]

Cut him some slack, Nicool. Njorl clearly has taken the time to think through his opinion. Its refreshing considering all the knee-jerking going on here.

 

[Njorl]

It's tough being a liberal hawk.

Njorl

 

[Nicool003]

Cut him some slack, Nicool. Njorl clearly has taken the time to think through his opinion. Its refreshing considering all the knee-jerking going on here.

You are right although you have to admit, that was nothing next to what adam and kyleb are getting... Sorry Njorl it wasn't anything you said I was just saying that you basically said what I said and that you need not have typed all that. I had just responded to another of kyleb's posts so I wasn't thinking to clearly...sorry.

 

[damgo]

What is still all speculation? That he has weapons of mass destruction? He certainly does. He ordered them used and he already fired missles much stronger and longer ranged than he was supposed to have.

Well, despite what one might think from watching Faux News, there is still no evidence of Iraq using any banned weapons. The supposed SCUDS that were launched turned out to be perfectly legal (ironic term) short-ranged missiles.

Personally, I think it's fairly certain Saddam has a few chem weapons left, but no real evidence has been found of them yet. Does he have chemical production facilities left? Possibly, but I tend to doubt it. The US did a pretty good job of wiping those out it Gulf War I, and the off-and-on inspections probably made things quite difficult for Saddam recently.

 

[kyleb]

Originally posted by Nicool003
I had just responded to another of kyleb's posts so I wasn't thinking to clearly...sorry.

well at least you admit it.

 

[Nicool003]

Well, despite what one might think from watching Faux News, there is still no evidence of Iraq using any banned weapons. The supposed SCUDS that were launched turned out to be perfectly legal (ironic term) short-ranged missiles.

'

It wasn't just fox news so you must not watch the other channels I watch... Also it has been online on a very trustworthy website that has things up a day or more before the news ever has them on...

 

[damgo]

^^^ :) Where at? Debka? aeronautics.ru? None of the places I consider reliable have reported even good suspicions of banned missiles. The worst confirmed thing so far is the NBC protection suits found in that Iraqi hospital...

Njorl -- I feel ya.

 

[Nicool003]

Ahh! Now I see! Fox news is not reliable because it is actually run by republicans AND democrats instead of just democrats who change everything or don't tell you everything because they don't like the president! Instead (like i have said before) you want the democrats and their wonderful Clinton to come back so Bill could run to Canada because he doesn't have the intelligence to know that 1) there isn't a draft! 2) He is too old . In case any of you don't know or chose not to listen, Bill clinton ran to Canada to escape getting drafted to war. Yes and those other democratic stations also want bill back so he can lie to the country again the democrats just love those presidents. Yes I see your point completely Yes I see. You don't like republicans so now Fox News is unreliable. Well they aren't the only station to say that and there are also websites like i mentioned...





In case you said that to Njorl because I kinda snapped at him then once again I am sorry.

 

[BoulderHead]

Originally posted by Sensei
we're quite the iconic culture. i just fear our very thoughts may eventually become slogans, nothing more than parroted back synaptic renditions of what those in power wish us to believe.

You mean like; Oh, that Saddams a baaaad man... He must be stopped...

Originally posted by Kerrie
all day friday on the major corporate media news stations, i heard the term "shock and awe"...i got the feeling that they wanted to be responble for setting a theme of the destruction done...personally i feel corporate media is ridiculous...

Ever notice how 'they' all have the same slant?

 

[kat]

I'm quoting a bit offPhotoDude.com He grabs the quote from CBN. This is the first time I've read their site so reader beware. I don't discredit the info due to that but..I do..do...my due...diligence as you should do yours!


Paul Strand: “What I just heard from a highly placed source here is that they've discovered, they've captured chemical warheads, they're Russian, they have Russian writing all over them and they are chemical warheads. Of course, they can't get into them and find out if there’s chemicals because once they open them they'd all die right there on the spot. But they're going to ship them off for testing.”

“They also captured a launcher that was able to shoot these very munitions that they've captured. And they’ve captured a man who mixes the chemicals, that was his job with the Medina Division which is the division we're facing right now near the city of Karbala. So all these things leading the military here to believe we might have been hit by chemical shells any time now, and we're not sure we've got them all. So those are the developments here near Karbala about 60 miles south of Baghdad.”

 

[damgo]

Whoa! Take it easy there Nicole... cmon, let me at least make some outrageous liberal claims before you go attacking me for them!

Anyways, I think Fox is unreliable, because, well, everytime I've watched them they seem to be. They're too gung-ho, and, well, biased for me to take them seriously. Incidentally, I think the exact same thing about many liberal sources--you'll not see me quoting IndyMedia, for example.

Anyways, so I'm curious, what is this site?

 

[russ_watters]

Anyways, I think Fox is unreliable, because, well, everytime I've watched them they seem to be. They're too gung-ho, and, well, biased for me to take them seriously.

I don't watch FOX news because they try too hard to make the news exciting. Not quite the same as their mild right leaning bias.

I tend to watch CNN because with their resources they generally have the best information. And I can tell the difference between fact and opinion, so their mild left slant doesn't bother me.

 

[Nicool003]

Take it easy there Nicole...

That would be Nicool or Nick.

 

[damgo]

Ooops! My bad. :) Oh, you asked in another thread (I lost which) where I hear rumors from... usually it's from www.agonist.org[/url] , [url]www.dailykos.com[/url] , [url]www.tacitus.org[/URL] and a number of other blog sites. I've found them to be usually pretty accurate, but I try and qualify things if I haven't seen confirmed on a major media outlet (besides Faux or al Jazeera ;) ).

 

[Nicool003]

well one website (the drudge report) is very good I find it to usually be faster than the media and it hasn't failed me yet.

 

[kyleb]

the drudge good for many things, i would definitely not use it as my only source though.

 

[Nicool003]

I didn't say it was my ONLY source...

 

[Phobos]

Originally posted by Adam
"To liberate the Iraqi people, we're going to bomb the hell out of Baghdad."

You may be upset about the war, but the US is not "bombing the hell out of Baghdad". It is bombing the hell out of the military/government targets in Baghdad. There is a huge effort to avoid civilian deaths.

Iraq on the other hand is reportedly using its civilians as shields and killing those (or the families of those) who refuse to fight.

 

[russ_watters]

You may be upset about the war, but the US is not "bombing the hell out of Baghdad". It is bombing the hell out of the military/government targets in Baghdad. There is a huge effort to avoid civilian deaths.

Iraq on the other hand is reportedly using its civilians as shields and killing those (or the families of those) who refuse to fight.

Two conveniently ignored, yet hugely important points.

 

[kyleb]

i think they are both good points, the latter as well as the fact that the "huge effort" is still leaving many civilians in its wake were things i expected when this war was proposed in the first place.

 

[Phobos]

I should add that, at least in Basra, it would seem that the Iraq military is not letting the cilivians flee the city (shooting/mortar shelling groups trying to leave). The are keeping the civilians in harm's way, I suspect, in order to cause more civilian deaths so they can win the political war. I think Iraq knows it can't beat the Coalition military toe-to-toe, but they think they can win the propoganda war (and so far, they are doing well at that).

 

[kyleb]

ya, unfortnatly when you back people into a corner they often start pulling every dirty trick in the book.

 

[russ_watters]

ya, unfortnatly when you back people into a corner they often start pulling every dirty trick in the book.

So murdering your own people is just a "dirty trick"? Wow, is that all the Iraqi people are worth? These "dirty tricks" may land Saddam in front of a a Nurenberg firing squad and they are on par with the things that Stalin and Hitler did to their own people.

as well as the fact that the "huge effort" is still leaving many civilians in its wake were things I expected when this war was proposed in the first place.

Certainly civilian casualties were expected - they are in fact unaviodable in a war. But how many do you think we have killed? by my estimate if we believe without question the reports of Iraqi tv, we've killed something like 150. Considering the tonnage we've dropped on Iraq, that's an extrordinarily small number.

 

[kyleb]

well when it comes down to the honest action or dirty trick line, which side would you put it on russ?