Should Algebra Be Required At Community Colleges?

[vela]

The chancellor of CCC needs to address the real roots of the problem: poor math preparation at the high school level. He should lobby with the state education boards to improve the standard in high schools, so that students coming into his community colleges for an Associate Degree can no longer be so intimidated by the algebra course, because they would have the strong base to enable them to handle it.

Gee, why didn't someone else think of that? If it were simply a matter of lobbying to raise standards, this problem would have been solved decades ago.

 

[SciencewithDrJ]

Gee, why didn't someone else think of that? If it were simply a matter of lobbying to raise standards, this problem would have been solved decades ago.

Every long journey has a first step. I suggested looking at the root of the problem, which is always advisable. It may well take a decade, but at least the issue would start to be tackled by someone somewhere somehow.

 

[vela]

The root of the problem isn't poor math preparation. That's the symptom. The real questions are, among others: Why are so many people in the US so intimidated by math? Is it the way it's taught? Are there better ways to teach the same skills? Why is it acceptable to taxpayers for math standards for high school graduation to be so low? How can we change that? What are the right math standards? Should it be one size fits all or should we recognize different levels of competence? How do we realistically deal with the students we have now who have been failed by the public school system?

 

[SciencewithDrJ]

The root of the problem isn't poor math preparation. That's the symptom. The real questions are, among others: Why are so many people in the US so intimidated by math? Is it the way it's taught? Are there better ways to teach the same skills? Why is it acceptable to taxpayers for math standards for high school graduation to be so low? How can we change that? What are the right math standards? Should it be one size fits all or should we recognize different levels of competence? How do we realistically deal with the students we have now who have been failed by the public school system?

Those are excellent questions indeed. I don't know much about the US school system, but here in Canada (which is essentially a similar culture and right next door to the US) math is not a big issue among students. It may well be a worthwhile research project for a science education graduate student to identify why that is so.

What is a realistic solution now for current students, that is tough and I share the concerns of all parties concerned. Perhaps a compromise can be reached to require a less advanced course, with a crash course requisite to upgrade the standard prior to taking the course.

 

[Dr. Courtney]

The chancellor of CCC needs to address the real roots of the problem: poor math preparation at the high school level. He should lobby with the state education boards to improve the standard in high schools, so that students coming into his community colleges for an Associate Degree can no longer be so intimidated by the algebra course, because they would have the strong base to enable them to handle it.

I agree, but I would not hold my breath. The chancellor of CCC does not have the authority to change what is happening in high schools.

S/He does have the authority to give the faculty full authority to fail EACH AND EVERY student who does not meet the proper standards of learning in their math courses. Of course, they'd probably also have to stop using student evals for any other purpose than informing the faculty.

 

[Dr.D]

S/He does have the authority to give the faculty full authority to fail EACH AND EVERY student who does not meet the proper standards of learning in their math courses. Of course, they'd probably also have to stop using student evals for any other purpose than informing the faculty.

That will be the day! I really had to laugh when I read this. I have fought many battles with college administration over failing just a very few students, and the very idea of failing all who fail to show competence is simply a riot! When this happens, we will no longer need colleges; the end of the age will have arrived!

 

[Dr. Courtney]

That will be the day! I really had to laugh when I read this. I have fought many battles with college administration over failing just a very few students, and the very idea of failing all who fail to show competence is simply a riot! When this happens, we will no longer need colleges; the end of the age will have arrived!

If a college is unwilling to maintain standards, then they are hypocritical to expect it of high schools.

 

[Dr.D]

If a college is unwilling to maintain standards, then they are hypocritical to expect it of high schools.

Oh, I agree, I fully agree! We are surrounded by hypocrites, but that is the world we live in.

 

[Mike Bergen]

I believe CCCs are Open enrollment and get to insist on remedial classes to address the shortcomings of the "feeder schools"
I don't see them using limited resources tipping at the windmills of a schools system like the one we have in Philadelphia where, through "social promotion" we graduate young people who are lucky if they read at a 6 grade level. As a person who has been involved with Apprentice training, I can report they leave High school not able to read a ruler or add fractions. How long is 3/4 plus 1/2 IF you can't come up with 1 1/4" in your head then you can't be in my world

 

[symbolipoint]

I believe CCCs are Open enrollment and get to insist on remedial classes to address the shortcomings of the "feeder schools"
I don't see them using limited resources tipping at the windmills of a schools system like the one we have in Philadelphia where, through "social promotion" we graduate young people who are lucky if they read at a 6 grade level. As a person who has been involved with Apprentice training, I can report they leave High school not able to read a ruler or add fractions. How long is 3/4 plus 1/2 IF you can't come up with 1 1/4" in your head then you can't be in my world

One of the important purposes of community college is to offer remedial courses for adults. If not from community colleges, then must make remediation available at the local adult schools, which in some way are in competition with the community colleges; not sure who is winning currently but everybody is hustling for funding.

 

[bhobba]

I don't know much about the US school system, but here in Canada (which is essentially a similar culture and right next door to the US) math is not a big issue among students.

I am in Australia but know a bit about the US system from answering general education questions on Yahoo answers which at one time I did a lot.

Two things really struck me. One was when in California they made algebra compulsory in grade 8. There was this howl - too hard for grade 8's etc etc. I was just gobsmacked - we do it here in a combined course with geometry in grade 7 and 8 and we used to start grade one at 5 yo - its now 6 like the US but we were doing it at the start of the US middle school effectively. There was no howl of this is too hard etc etc. What there is a howl abut in Aus is the dwindling number of people doing advanced math in 11 and 12. We have some schools with specialist advanced math programs where you complete year 10 math in grade 9 and do 11 and 12 math in 10 and 11, then in grade 12 you do first year university math which taken together is equivalent to US Calc 1, 2 and 3 plus half a semester of differential equations and half a semester of linear algebra. You complete the second half a semester of both at a higher level second year. Its so at second year you have enough knowledge to do things like Markov chains, and mathematical modelling. But overall people taking advanced math is dwindling. People are really concerned about it here - not algebra - that's taken for granted - but people should at least be doing a bit of calculus.

They are trying all sorts of things - but nothing seems to wok - people just don't want to do advanced math. It really is both a shame and a big problem. They have a show out here called Q&A and had some educators discussing future education and jobs. The general consensus was if you don't do something STEM related (that would include finance, actuarial studies, advanced economics etc) then your future is rather dim - just about all future jobs will require it.

Thanks
Bill

 

[ISamson]

Two things really struck me. One was when in California they made algebra compulsory in grade 8. There was this howl - too hard for grade 8's etc etc.

I am now in year 7 in Australia (Perth) and we just did algebra.
Easy. We did it ALL the year before and plus I am in HPL (High Performance Learning).

 

[SciencewithDrJ]

But overall people taking advanced math is dwindling

Are there any studies to probe why there is so much resistance?

 

[bhobba]

Are there any studies to probe why there is so much resistance?

Two reasons:

1. Typical first year economics subjects once required a smattering of calculus so you had as a pre-requisite what we call maths B which is a bit below (but not much) US calculus AB. That has mostly been removed so since most people in most courses do some economics there is now no formal reason to do it.

2. Simple desire to take the easy route - they see a degree as a meal ticket without worrying too much about exactly what degree. They know if you take the hard STEM subjects your initial salary is better, but if you take the soft options while your salary isn't as much initially, you are better prepared for the higher paid management type jobs later that require more of the 'soft' arts type skills. It's reasonably true now, but the thinking is that will quickly change as less actual management jobs will be required, all jobs will need technical skill.

Thanks
Bill

 

[bhobba]

I am now in year 7 in Australia (Perth) and we just did algebra.
Easy. We did it ALL the year before and plus I am in HPL (High Performance Learning).

That's right - those in advanced math programs do it even earlier than grade 7 - like I said here in Queensland we used to start school at 5 years of age so everything was done a year earlier - we didn't have any problems I knew about. Starting age was changed to 6 to being us into line with most other countries and other Australian states but will it make any actual difference to the quality of university graduates - well I never heard of any difference between Queensland graduates and other states.

Thanks
Bill

 

[TeethWhitener]

But overall people taking advanced math is dwindling.

The evidence (at least in the US) does not support your hypothesis:
https://nces.ed.gov/programs/coe/indicator_cod.asp

Edit: In fact we can go further: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AP_Calculus
According to this data, the number of students taking AP calculus (AB and BC) has increased basically linearly for the past decade or so, but the mean scores received on these exams have remained the same. Assuming that the test hasn't become less challenging over that time frame, this would imply that more (not fewer) students have a baseline competency in calculus each year.

 

[bhobba]

The evidence (at least in the US) does not support your hypothesis:

I can assure you its true in Aus - politicians and educators are very concerned about it - I would give a link but its likely behind a paywall so here is the relevant information from, for example, the Sydney Morning Herald, October 6 2014, under the heading '20-year decline in year 12 science and maths participation, study finds'.

I will paraphrase it. While the number of students attending year 12 increased by 16 per cent between 1992 and 2012, those students studying chemistry, biology, physics and advanced or intermediate maths subjects decreased dramatically.

Intermediate math would be Maths B which as I alluded to is a bit below US Calculus AB, Advanced math, which can only be taken if you do Math B as well, called Math C where I am, takes you to Calculus BC level plus does a bit more than the US in probability and linear algebra. Of course some of the better schools in the US would in their pre-calculus do probability and linear algebra to a similar standard. Everyone must do at least maths A which would be equivalent to your pre-calculus.

When I did 11 and 12 in 1972 at 16 (remember I mentioned we started school at 5 where I was) nearly everyone, except a couple of students, did the following 6 subjects:

English
Math B
Math C
Physics
Chemistry
Biology or Geometrical Drawing and Perspective depending on if you saw your future more in the sciences or engineering - I did Geometrical Drawing and Perspective because I thought I would do some kind of Engineering - particularly Electrical Engineering.

Didn't work out that way, on a 1 to 7 scale I got 5 for everything except English, which I got a 3 - that was considered a fail. I was as lazy as the proverbial - didn't even study before exams - simply got by on what I picked up in class and had an interest in electronics in those days. Some universities here required at least a 4 in English, but some didn't. I could have gone to uni but by that time I was sick of school so went out to work instead. Later at age 21 did a part time degree in math and computer science.

As you can see from at least 1992 there has been a drastic reduction in people taking advanced math. And when I did it in 1972 nearly everyone did it.

For me this is really, really bad and represents a drastic decline in standards. I am not the only one worried - politicians and educators are just as concerned.

Of relevance here is we aren't worried about algebra - everyone here takes for granted you do that at much lower grades - equivalent to your middle school - it's calculus etc that worries us. The situation would seem to be different in the US.

The only bright spot I see here in Australia is the school I attended (and others are doing the same) has an advanced math program where you complete math B and C in 10 and 11 and do university math in year 12:
http://www.indoorooshs.eq.edu.au/curriculum/specialist-programs/maths-and-engineering-acceleration/

I would have jumped at the chance to do that, but it wasn't available when I did it. I may have even done some work

Thanks
Bill

 

[Apple_Mango]

Has there even been any academic article proving how math is essential to college students or high-school and middle-school students for that matter? I have yet to see an article posted.

 

[Greg Bernhardt]

Has there even been any academic article proving how math is essential to college students or high-school and middle-school students for that matter? I have yet to see an article posted.

I don't think you need a study to tell you basic math (arithmetic, geometry and algebra) is important for all life paths.

 

[bhobba]

I don't think you need a study to tell you basic math (arithmetic, geometry and algebra) is important for all life paths.

Indeed

Every citizen, for example (there are other necessities as well but this is the one I will mention) needs a basic understanding of economics. Now you can study basic economics without a little bit of calculus - but it is made so much easier if you know some calculus. That's why people here in Aus are worried about the falling number of people doing calculus in HS. Algebra is taken for granted.

Thanks
Bill

 

[rootone]

Well if algebra was to be considered not that important then why not say the same about geometry?
Of all basic math skills algebra is probably the most important in that it underlies skills that are very useful in computer programming.

 

[Wilson Donald Rohan]

I think that algebra is very useful for young people. By solving somewhat abstract math problems for homework and exams, students learn fundamental problem-solving skills, using time and logic. So algebra is indirectly beneficial. Also, for those who decide to take calculus, they have less chance of flunking due to poor algebra skills. The same can be said for trigonometry.

 

[Aufbauwerk 2045]

"The chancellor of the California Community Colleges system believes that students who are not majoring in math or science should not have to take intermediate algebra to earn an associate degree."

Since this refers to intermediate algebra, I assume this is second year algebra, which has first year algebra as a prerequisite. Perhaps someone can verify this? I don't know how to answer this poll without having a clear idea of exactly what kind of algebra we are talking about.

Recently I read that the number one reason kids drop out of high school in the USA is that they fail algebra. Are they all taking the same algebra course?

This does not relate directly to the question about community colleges, but I think it's a big mistake to expect every high school student to be ready for a four year university. Particularly since in the USA many of the four year liberal arts degrees are a waste of time for many jobs. I think it's also a mistake to force every student to take a difficult algebra course, when for many students this would not be something they would use in their adult life.

Instead, in my opinion, we should have several tracks, including a vocational training track in some field which does not demand algebra for those who are not able to master it. Or if it does require a bit of algebra, teach only what is truly necessary, and teach it at a pace which the less mathematically advanced students can follow. In other words, let's have some common sense. It's very unfair to young people to hold them all to the same standard. One size does not fit all.

So given my opinion about tracking, I suppose I would say, as far as community college goes, don't require an algebra course unless it is truly necessary for whatever track they are on, and be sure the course is taught at the appropriate level.

 

[symbolipoint]

"The chancellor of the California Community Colleges system believes that students who are not majoring in math or science should not have to take intermediate algebra to earn an associate degree."

Since this refers to intermediate algebra, I assume this is second year algebra, which has first year algebra as a prerequisite. Perhaps someone can verify this? I don't know how to answer this poll without having a clear idea of exactly what kind of algebra we are talking about.

Recently I read that the number one reason kids drop out of high school in the USA is that they fail algebra. Are they all taking the same algebra course?

This does not relate directly to the question about community colleges, but I think it's a big mistake to expect every high school student to be ready for a four year university. Particularly since in the USA many of the four year liberal arts degrees are a waste of time for many jobs. I think it's also a mistake to force every student to take a difficult algebra course, when for many students this would not be something they would use in their adult life.

Instead, in my opinion, we should have several tracks, including a vocational training track in some field which does not demand algebra for those who are not able to master it. Or if it does require a bit of algebra, teach only what is truly necessary, and teach it at a pace which the less mathematically advanced students can follow. In other words, let's have some common sense. It's very unfair to young people to hold them all to the same standard. One size does not fit all.

So given my opinion about tracking, I suppose I would say, as far as community college goes, don't require an algebra course unless it is truly necessary for whatever track they are on, and be sure the course is taught at the appropriate level.

First year algebra for high school is "introductory algebra", corresponding to the same thing in community college, also often called "Algebra 1". Material is learning variables, monomials, polynomials, instruction going to linear equations, their graphs, quadratic equations, factoring, number properties, including exponent properties.

Second year algebra for high school is "intermediate algebra", corresponding to the same thing in community college, also called "Algebra 2". Material is, roughly, functions, quadratic equations, general formula for quadratic equation including completing the square, a little bit of linear algebra, review of the number properties, Conic Sections and their graphs, sequences and series, inverse of functions, exponential and logarithmic functions, usually a few other topics.

If these Algebra 1 and 2 courses are taught nicely, they will include many application exercises. Rational equations will occur in both courses; and those in Algebra 2 are generally include slightly more complicated rational equation exercises and applications. Algebra 2 can be viewed as a continuation of Algebra 1. Both of these are "college preparatory" in high school but are "remedial" when taken in a college or university.

More is worth saying..., but maybe later from me, if not from other members; so much of it has already been discussed here.

 

[MidgetDwarf]

"The chancellor of the California Community Colleges system believes that students who are not majoring in math or science should not have to take intermediate algebra to earn an associate degree."

Since this refers to intermediate algebra, I assume this is second year algebra, which has first year algebra as a prerequisite. Perhaps someone can verify this? I don't know how to answer this poll without having a clear idea of exactly what kind of algebra we are talking about.

Recently I read that the number one reason kids drop out of high school in the USA is that they fail algebra. Are they all taking the same algebra course?

This does not relate directly to the question about community colleges, but I think it's a big mistake to expect every high school student to be ready for a four year university. Particularly since in the USA many of the four year liberal arts degrees are a waste of time for many jobs. I think it's also a mistake to force every student to take a difficult algebra course, when for many students this would not be something they would use in their adult life.

Instead, in my opinion, we should have several tracks, including a vocational training track in some field which does not demand algebra for those who are not able to master it. Or if it does require a bit of algebra, teach only what is truly necessary, and teach it at a pace which the less mathematically advanced students can follow. In other words, let's have some common sense. It's very unfair to young people to hold them all to the same standard. One size does not fit all.

So given my opinion about tracking, I suppose I would say, as far as community college goes, don't require an algebra course unless it is truly necessary for whatever track they are on, and be sure the course is taught at the appropriate level.

But this same argument can be used for people doing stem. Should we create English, and in a broader sense electives that require smaller amounts of writing, for stem majors? Is it really important for a stem major to read 200 pages of literature/ nonscientific articles, and write 10 or more page essays on it? Scientific writing is different from writing done in the social sciences...

Many CC are implementing something called a "pre stats" class to replace intermediate algebra. CC argue that intermediate algebra, which a high number of people in these colleges have problems passing it, does not prepare the student for statistics.

It all boils down to doing the work or not doing the work.

 

[Aufbauwerk 2045]

But this same argument can be used for people doing stem. Should we create English, and in a broader sense electives that require smaller amounts of writing, for stem majors? Is it really important for a stem major to read 200 pages of literature/ nonscientific articles, and write 10 or more page essays on it? Scientific writing is different from writing done in the social sciences...

Actually I like your comparison, and I believe STEM majors should indeed not be required to take English classes at all. In my opinion, the time for general education is primary and to some extent secondary school. University is the time for specialization in one's own subject. I would remove all general education requirements from universities.

When it comes to physics, for example, even in secondary school the few students who are going to major in physics should begin in the appropriate track when they enter high school. They should take mostly math and science. There is so much to learn in one's own field. I was a physics major, and I found all the general educational courses to be an unnecessary burden. I studied English, history, psychology, and so on, throughout my pre-university years. That was more than enough. In retrospect, it would have been a much better use of my time to take more mathematics and science courses before university, instead of yet another English literature course.

I am speaking of four year universities, where one is studying for a bachelor's degree. If we eliminate general education, and STEM students have already studied what is now studied in the first year of university, we could shorten the time for a bachelor's degree to three years. That's much more efficient in my opinion.

Of course I realize community colleges play a different role. For example, they offer remedial and adult education, as well as vocational education.

 

[symbolipoint]

Actually I like your comparison, and I believe STEM majors should indeed not be required to take English classes at all. In my opinion, the time for general education is primary and to some extent secondary school. University is the time for specialization in one's own subject. I would remove all general education requirements from universities.

When it comes to physics, for example, even in secondary school the few students who are going to major in physics should begin in the appropriate track when they enter high school. They should take mostly math and science. There is so much to learn in one's own field. I was a physics major, and I found all the general educational courses to be an unnecessary burden. I studied English, history, psychology, and so on, throughout my pre-university years. That was more than enough. In retrospect, it would have been a much better use of my time to take more mathematics and science courses before university, instead of yet another English literature course.

I am speaking of four year universities, where one is studying for a bachelor's degree. If we eliminate general education, and STEM students have already studied what is now studied in the first year of university, we could shorten the time for a bachelor's degree to three years. That's much more efficient in my opinion.

Of course I realize community colleges play a different role. For example, they offer remedial and adult education, as well as vocational education.

College and university students will learn the General Education courses better than when they were younger students. What should be limited is the EXCESSIVE quantities of such courses required of science & engineering students.

 

[MidgetDwarf]

College and university students will learn the General Education courses better than when they were younger students. What should be limited is the EXCESSIVE quantities of such courses required of science & engineering students.

I recently transferred to a 4yr university. I was forced to come to the school I am currently attending, due to economic factors and family obligations. When I arrived to my school, some of my math classes were considered upper division. Ie, Discrete mathematics was broken up into 2 semesters, and the second semester was needed to start classes such as: real analysis, abstract algebra, number theory, graph theory,etc. My registration appointment was 2 weeks before the semester started, so I needed to add 1 upper division general eds. Needless to say, one of the general ed courses required 300 pages of reading and essays weekly. I had to take an F in the course, so my scholarship/financial aid would not be affected. It was either take an F in this class, or get Cs across the board. Mind you, I am taking discrete math, upper division mechanics, intro biology. I read and studied more for that elective class, then I did my stem courses. I even had an A, before I told the professor to give me an F. I later added a graph theory course (discrete teacher teaches this class) to actually finish my math degree in 2 years. Let's just say, that the time I wasted reading for the elective was better used in learning graph theory...

 

[symbolipoint]

College and university students will learn the General Education courses better than when they were younger students. What should be limited is the EXCESSIVE quantities of such courses required of science & engineering students.

I recently transferred to a 4yr university. I was forced to come to the school I am currently attending, due to economic factors and family obligations. When I arrived to my school, some of my math classes were considered upper division. Ie, Discrete mathematics was broken up into 2 semesters, and the second semester was needed to start classes such as: real analysis, abstract algebra, number theory, graph theory,etc. My registration appointment was 2 weeks before the semester started, so I needed to add 1 upper division general eds. Needless to say, one of the general ed courses required 300 pages of reading and essays weekly. I had to take an F in the course, so my scholarship/financial aid would not be affected. It was either take an F in this class, or get Cs across the board. Mind you, I am taking discrete math, upper division mechanics, intro biology. I read and studied more for that elective class, then I did my stem courses. I even had an A, before I told the professor to give me an F. I later added a graph theory course (discrete teacher teaches this class) to actually finish my math degree in 2 years. Let's just say, that the time I wasted reading for the elective was better used in learning graph theory...

I did not know the situation is that bad!

 

[Mister T]

The Math Pathways initiative in Texas seeks to provide alternatives to the traditional algebra class. http://dcmathpathways.org/.

The traditional college algebra class was created as a preparatory class to get students ready for calculus. But in practice it's used that way for a very small fraction of the students who take it.

I think that when students successfully complete courses like algebra it changes the way they think. And loosing that is a detriment to our society, but it's happening and this Math Pathways project is one way to deal with that reality.